Who has Heyman helped?

[JOSHG85]

I was thinking about this last night after watching Cesaro be eliminated from the IC Title battle royal by none other than THE HEATH FREAKING SLATER. Who has Heyman helped in recent years that wasn't already over?

I would argue that if anything Heyman has been more of a hindrance than a help to many of his recent clients.

Think about it.....

CM Punk - He certainly helped Punk's act, but the reality is that Punk was already SUPER over and could have continued to be a MAJOR success without Heyman.

Brock Lesnar - This one is a bit different. Heyman and Brock are really good friends. Lesnar was "brought into" WWE (WWF at the time) and was a major success in getting Brock over as a monster. That was 12 years ago. Brock still needs Heyman as a mouthpiece, but Heyman is not the reason that Brock is over today.

Now look at the guys he has recently managed.....

Curtis Axel - This isn't entirely Heyman's fault. The dude is a black-hole of charisma, but he is a decent hand in the ring. However, would he have been worse off without Heyman? Probably not. Did he gain anything from being managed by Heyman? I don't believe so.

Ryback - This dude was really getting over huge. He was even in the main event of several PPV's. He gets paired up with Heyman and what happens.....he becomes a joke. I would argue that his alliance with Heyman hurt Ryback and he is still recovering from it.

Cesaro - The Swiss Superman was one of, if not the biggest rising star in WWE. The swing was over in an enormous manner. He was one of the top 10 guys in WWE towards the end of 2013 going into 2014. He gets paired up with Heyman...... After his pairing with Heyman he ends up being eliminated by Heath Slater and just being another guy on the roster.

Now I know that it is sacrilegious to say anything bad about Heyman on the internet, but is this just coincidence, or is being paired with Heyman in 2014 a kiss of death?

 

[Creepy Old Man]

Heyman getting people over is the biggest myth in wrestling. No evidence for it at all. He works alongside established talents, or works with wrestlers who then don't get over (some got over long after the Heyman partnership ended, e.g. Undertaker).

That said, Heyman is a very entertaining performer. He complements people, but doesn't enhance them.

Ryback - This dude was really getting over huge. He was even in the main event of several PPV's. He gets paired up with Heyman and what happens.....he becomes a joke. I would argue that his alliance with Heyman hurt Ryback and he is still recovering from it.

Cesaro - The Swiss Superman was one of, if not the biggest rising star in WWE. The swing was over in an enormous manner. He was one of the top 10 guys in WWE towards the end of 2013 going into 2014. He gets paired up with Heyman...... After his pairing with Heyman he ends up being eliminated by Heath Slater and just being another guy on the roster.

Can't agree with any of that, though. Ryback was never over (listen to the chilling silence for his entrances at Hell in a Cell and Survivor Series 2012), his chant was (and in my subjective opinion it was partially piped in). Ryback was doomed long before Heyman came along. As for Cesaro, management giving him appalling theme music and no storyline to mention is hardly Heyman's fault.

 

[JOSHG85]

Can't agree with any of that, though. Ryback was never over (listen to the chilling silence for his entrances at Hell in a Cell and Survivor Series 2012), his chant was (and in my subjective opinion it was partially piped in). Ryback was doomed long before Heyman came along. As for Cesaro, management giving him appalling theme music and no storyline to mention is hardly Heyman's fault.

I understand what you're saying and even agree on some points. The issue though, which you touched on, Heyman didn't help them AT ALL. I also concur that Heyman is INCREDIBLY entertaining.

 

[Reflection]

The internet fans praise Heyman too much, as if he is an incarnation of god that can make no mistake. Very talented, sure, but also the most overrated guy in wrestling history.
You are right; Axel, Ryback and Cesaro lost more from being with Heyman than they gained from it. Heyman is ideal for Brock Lesnar and that's where he should stick. He just doesn't blend well with most of the other characters.
Last night, some guy commented in a KENTA article on the main page that he should be paired with Heyman, and he won't have to speak a word ever again. I was thinking dude, seriously?

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Heyman isn't it here to help anyone. He is there to entertain me. He does that on a regular basis. If someone can get 'over' in the process, fantastic. Every guy he has attached his name to may not have gotten over but having Heyman there has made things better than they would have been without him (although this statement is reserved for Cesaro since his story and connection with Heyman may not be over).

You can't put sugar on shit and make it delicious but if I have to eat shit there is no way I refuse the sugar topping.

 

[chicagokmc]

I think Heyman's purpose is to move storylines along, with a heyman associate getting over in the process being secondary. Looking at Cesaro, when he first came up to WWE he was a heel. they paired him with aksana and he acted in heelish ways. however, he used that cesaro swing which generates huge face pop. then they put cesaro with zeb and swagger, established heels. but again cesaro is still getting face pops here and there. then before wm they begin the real American breakup, I think to get cesaro into the singles world, and fans started cheering him over swagger. then finally wrestlemania where he impressively wins the andre battle royal. at that point everyone is ready to cheer for this guy. so what does wwe do? go back to wrestlemania - the most hated guy after wm for ending the streak was lesnar. who was next most hated? heyman, the guy who kept reminding us he was associated with the guy who ended the streak. so I think in a next attempt to get heel heat for cesaro they hooked him up with heyman (and reduced use of the cesaro swing). it worked for a little while with him getting heel heat, but I think fans just want to cheer the guy no matter what.

so back to the post, I don't think it was the goal for heyman to get cesaro over. I think it was just to help cement him as an upper mid card, lower main event tier heel. and I don't think it has worked. so to the op, no I guess he didn't help cesaro much. so now they are distancing cesaro and heyman, at least for now and we'll see where that goes.

as for rybaxel, unfortunately I think the plan all along was for punk and heyman feuding to be a main storyline. and since heyman doesn't wrestle someone associated with him had to take most of the beatings and lose the matches. so he didn't help his two guys so much, but he definitely helped keep the cm punk storyline moving.

again I think heyman's job is to help the big picture storylines flow and if he gets any of his associates over in the process that is a bonus.

 

[Straightfromthehart]

To the op....the whole ecw roster back in the day. Heyman=Heat. He's brilliant at what he does, ryback, axel and cesaro all boil down to really poor booking. Especially cesaro at the moment? Who did he piss off? Heyman should be put in charge of talent and booking for a while and see what happens.

 

[JOSHG85]

again I think heyman's job is to help the big picture storylines flow and if he gets any of his associates over in the process that is a bonus.

I can agree with that. This post wasn't meant as a bash to Heyman, but more of a wake-up call to the fans that think that all a wrestler needs to be "over" is to put them with Heyman. He really hasn't done that at all.

 

[FlairFan2003]

Most of the issues here have nothing to do w/ Heyman or his skills, its how WWE books people. Cesaro was until very recently seemingly doing very well, then articles on this site indicated WWE was slowing down his push to put more emphasis on Roman Reigns. How is that Heyman's fault or an indication he isnt talented ? WWE screwed up w/ Ryback, taking an organically grown push that was gaining major steam as a Goldberg-Ultimate Warrior esque monster face and they inexplicably turned him heel and ruined his mystique with several nothing special losses. And they wonder why fans lost interest, more importantly, how is Heyman responsible for that ?

With Punk WWE wanted him over as a major villain, not a tweener or hero who fights dirty. They wanted him to be the #1 heel vs #1 face John Cena. It didnt truly click until Heyman joined the picture, getting Punk over as a detested, hated heavy. They also worked very well together.

Lesnar wouldnt be over today like he is (which isnt great, he struggles to Batista even though WWE wishes he were The Rock) without Heyman. Look at him, w/out Heyman Brock is a random muscle head handicapped by a one dimensional persona that cant be changed because he has no real promo skills. He aint no Kurt Angle on the mic, in fact he aint even Brett Hart. Heyman's name gave him instant credibility when he started and today he gives him the mouthpiece and entertainment value he sorely lacks. Plus Heyman covers for another Brock weakness, he keeps his character alive on TV, keeping him relevant and marketable, during the long stretches of no activity Brock has with his ridiculously low number of dates.

In the end Heyman is one of the best managers in the last 30 years, easily the best in WWE now. He has had success, a major player in major stories as the sideman to Lesnar, Punk, The Midnight Express, The Dangerous Alliance, etc. If somebody didnt elevate after their association you have to look at the individual and how he was booked. Plus sometimes honestly a guy just isnt that good. Dont forget they gave Shelton Benjamin two make overs, the IC Title, and wins over HHH, Flair, & RVD on TV and his career still sputtered.

 

[Anti-IWC-Marks]

CM Punk - He certainly helped Punk's act, but the reality is that Punk was already SUPER over and could have continued to be a MAJOR success without Heyman.

Heyman certainly aided CM Punk in his heel turn, as Punk was becoming quite stale in his long title run.

Brock Lesnar - This one is a bit different. Heyman and Brock are really good friends. Lesnar was "brought into" WWE (WWF at the time) and was a major success in getting Brock over as a monster. That was 12 years ago. Brock still needs Heyman as a mouthpiece, but Heyman is not the reason that Brock is over today.

This is a special case in wrestling, as it goes beyond gimmick, as Paul Heyman is Brock Lesnar's real life manager.

Ryback - This dude was really getting over huge. He was even in the main event of several PPV's. He gets paired up with Heyman and what happens.....he becomes a joke. I would argue that his alliance with Heyman hurt Ryback and he is still recovering from it.

Ryback was actually already buried and out of the mainstream picture before the attempt was made to pair him with Heyman to see if Ryback could push his way back.

The problem is, they didn't book him any different. It's hard to expect a guy to ascend when they're a mid-card job boy.

But as for Paul Heyman, he is the best mic man on the planet today. He's witty, well-spoken, edgy, brash, and filled with charisma. He puts any of the guys on the list you had to shame, including CM Punk. That's why he mostly helps people.

 

[The Brain]

Now I know that it is sacrilegious to say anything bad about Heyman on the internet, but is this just coincidence, or is being paired with Heyman in 2014 a kiss of death?

I wouldn't say he's the kiss of death but he certainly doesn't have the Midas touch. When CM Punk coined the term Paul Heyman guy during his pipe bomb promo a lot of people just figured anyone that Heyman liked must be awesome. Like anyone else Heyman has hits and misses. How many of Heyman's ECW guys went on to have big success in WWE? Heyman is a very good manager and an entertaining villain but just being associated with him doesn't mean one is going to be a superstar.

By the way, were Curtis Axel and Ryback ever "Paul Heyman guys?" When Punk said that he meant Heyman was in his corner behind he scenes. WWE just took that term and stuck Axel and Ryback with Heyman hoping people would buy into it. I don't know that Heyman actually ever saw anything in those guys like he did Punk.

As for Cesaro, he never should have been paired with Heyman in the first place. He was getting really over and he should have just turned face after mania. That's what the people wanted and when it didn't happen it killed his momentum. It didn't help that whenever Heyman was on camera with Cesraro all he would talk about was Lesnar.

 

[Da Solo]

The thing with Heyman is that you can't expect to get over SOLELY because of him. He is there to elevate you, not build from the ground up. That's why Axel failed and why Ryback, who was already buried, had no chance.

With Heyman, you gotta have natural chemistry with him, that's why he gets his ride or dies (Lesnar, Punk) over even more: he knows them and can gel better. Plus, you can't give him C level talent like they tried to do with Heidenreich either. Give Heyman a coal and you'll still have coal; give him rough diamonds and he'd shine the shit out of it, though.

Cesaro was just a case of bad booking, Heidenreich sucked anyway, Axel is not a main event talent and Ryback's fall was very difficult to recover from. Otherwise, Heyman has taken Lesnar, Punk, RVD and Big Show to great heights.

 

[CaptainZaltan]

Every name you mentioned drew more heat with Heyman than without him.

Prior to being paired with Heyman, both Punk and Cesaro were getting face reactions despite being heels. Associating with Heyman helped both draw more heat, although even he couldn't get the fans to turn on them completely. Cesaro in particular is a natural fan favorite, and putting him with a heel manager at a time when he should have been turning face was a questionable decision. Even so, Heyman did a good job of establishing Cesaro as a serious heel threat, and the pairing could have easily gone further had the WWE opted to go that route. I believe that Cesaro was being positioned to get his feet wet in the main event by feuding with Daniel Bryan, but Bryan's injury and the subsequent title confusion, along with the WWE's long term plans for Brock Lesnar, made that impossible.

As for Curtis Axel, he was doing absolutely nothing prior to being a Heyman guy. With Heyman, he managed to have a pretty good run as a heel IC champ. Since breaking away from Heyman, he has been taking up space in the tag division.

Ryback was heading downhill fast prior to ever associating with Paul Heyman. By the time he was paired with Heyman, it was obvious that backstage politics and other factors would prevent him from ever reaching the top. That pairing hurt Heyman's credibility far more than it hurt Ryback's.

And lets not forget that The Big Show was a gigantic goof prior to associating with Paul Heyman. Heyman was instrumental in transforming the Big Show into the monster he should have been all along (at least for a time).

Heyman is very good at helping talents realize their potential, and figuring out how to present them (and how they can present themselves) in order to get over. He can also lend some of his heat to anyone he's associated with. In my opinion, just about everyone who has been paired with Heyman has been improved by the experience. But he isn't a wizard. He can't magically make a guy into a main eventer if the potential isn't there. He can't turn a natural babyface into a reviled heel (at least not in today's industry, where being a heel is harder than ever). And if the WWE won't pull the trigger and push a "heyman guy", there's really nothing he can do about it. He also has little control nowadays over who is billed as a "Paul Heyman guy", whereas he was an actual supporter of (and genuinely saw the potential in) guys like CM Punk and Lesnar.

 

[Sundar]

I can't speak for everyone but I haven't boo'd Heyman in a long time. He has been around for so long and has been very effective to a point where I think most people would actually cheer for him even though he is a heel. I think Heyman and Lesnar should turn face and feud with Rusev.

As for Heyman not helping guys like Axel, Ryback and Cesaro, I would attribute that to bad writing rather than Heyman.

The midcard titles mean nothing nowadays and if anything, holding them actually hurts the holder's credibility because of how those titles have been booked for years. Hardly any time is dedicated for promos and feuds involving those titles and even matches are quite rare. This is what happened to Curtis Axel. After Punk lost to Lesnar at Summerslam they had to have him go over Ryback and Axel which made both of them lose all their momentum. It was just terrible booking. Ryback has always been booked poorly, remember that WM29 match with Mark Henry? Cesaro was so over and should have turned face when he left the Real Americans. It was pointless to put him with Heyman. The only reason they did that was to keep Heyman on screen while Brock was away. You can't blame Heyman for that. Also, all Heyman guys apart from Lesnar and Punk have been booked poorly. All of them have been on losing streaks while with Heyman. That is not Heyman's fault either.

 

[BigBombB]

Curtis Axel had the biggest run of his career thanks to Heyman, more than he ever deserved. Axel still has a job thanks to his association with Heyman, Axel is the new JTG.

As mentioned, Ryback had been neutered as a top tier talent and Heyman was supposed to magically rejuvenate him. Add to that, Ryback is supposed to be a monster but Heyman also manages the top 'monster' on the roster, Brock Lesnar, a fact nobody watching could ignore. Ryback, no matter how good he becomes, will never be a Brock Lesnar, so having the undeniable association hurt Ryback worse than anything that had happened until that point. Heyman tried but there was no chemistry and they simply weren't willing to put anything behind his 'bully' character.

Cesaro has hardly been buried, he has merely been treading water in the deep end of the pool. He isn't sinking, he isn't bursting out into the yacht of luxury, but he remains relevant next to the top stars in the organization and, the longer that remains true, the easier it will be to rejuvenate him when they need him to jump into the main event. This is a place where the association with Lesnar, by proxy, worked because both wrestlers are genetic freaks in different ways. Heyman helped Cesaro by keeping his name relevant among the upper echelon of the organization, keeping Cesaro associated with success, and his brief association with Heyman will likely pay off in the future.

Heyman can take a guy destined to be a star and give him that extra push into the atmosphere, he can not be expected to make guys that don't have the talent or don't have the backing of those writing tv into the next breakout stars. No matter how effective he is, if no one believes in the people he is managing to begin with then there is nothing to work with, nothing to emphasize, nothing people will buy into because they already closed the door long ago.

 

[Aquaman6686]

The purpose of a manager is to elevate the talent they are managing and take them to the next level, i.e. Bobby Heenan, Freddie Blassie, Mr. Fuji, etc. Paul Heyman doesn't do that. With VERY rare exceptions like Brock Lesnar, Heyman takes focus away from his clients and puts the spotlight all on him. Every promo Heyman cuts puts more focus on him and makes his clients irrelevant. He hurts talent far more than he helps them. The IWC has this insane love for Paul Heyman because of the original ECW, an independent promotion that Heyman ran into the ground. Paul Heyman is one of the worst managers of all time.

 

[Mustang Sally]

He's definitely helped Brock, although that's not necessarily a positive. I keep getting the impression that, among the many stipulations spelled out in Brock's unique WWE contract, one of the provisions was to provide him with a "talker" so that Brock didn't have to do it himself. Yes, he's spoken a few times and did just fine, but for the most part, he stands there like a dummy and listens to Heyman crow about how great his fighter is. Yeesh.

When Brock was being hired and the necessity for a talker was established, I could just see WWE management saying: "If we have to provide the guy with a mouthpiece, let's get the best one in the business." In comes Paul.

Of course, Heyman also helped Brock and the company by being present to extol his client while Brock wasn't around, which was most of the time. That's the most significant way Heyman helped.

I'd say Heyman helped CM Punk the least, primarily because Punk hardly needed anyone to speak for him. The two seemed to compete for mic time.....and it made me wonder whose idea it was to pair them.

 

[tvcolosi]

One could make the arguement that Paul got RVD over the final hurdle in 2006.

CM Punk was super over as a face but he wasn't getting heel heat. Paul added credibility and got Punk booed.

He got Big Show back over as a credible badass in late 02 early 03.
In WWE, you are right, not as many as you would think.

I love his early 90s WCW Dangerous Alliance program.