Who do you think will take over the WW division?

[Ace Sleeper]

With Georges St. Pierre's Welterweight title run coming to a close (whether he loses or leaves), that leaves the next passing of the torch.

First we had Matt Hughes. One of the best UFC fighters and most dominate champions of all time. He'd beaten everyone in the division at his time and won most of his fights in decisive fashion. He had even beaten BJ Penn and Georges St. Pierre. He truly was the best. He started winding down after regaining the belt, and he eventually passed it on to Georges St. Pierre.

St. Pierre beat Hughes again, and started defending his belt time after time. Now he's arguably the best Welterweight of all time. He's not the most exciting champion, but he has been one of the most dominate. He's been beating everyone in the top 10, with some controversy, but he has beaten them all. So now that he's supposedly planning on leaving after a fight with Shields to try at Middleweight, olympics, etc, who do you think will take over the Welterweight division.

Now I'm not saying someone to be next champion, or win the belt, or whatever. I'm talking about the one who destroys everyone that gets put in front of them like these two have. There's a lot of young blood and a lot of savvy vets in Welterweight. If GSP leaves it would really shake up the division. So with a potential new champion to be crowned after GSP leaves, who will take the division as theirs for the next few years?

 

[Dressler]

Well, if he beats BJ Penn I'd have to say John Fitch. I mean, he kind of is dominating the Welterweight Division already just he couldnt beat GSP. The guy might not be jaw droppingly fun, but take away GSP, I'd find it hard press to see anyone beat Fitch, as much of a boring ass fighter he is, he is deffinitly the Number 2 right now, and when GSP goes away, he should be Number 1. At least in my opinion.

 

[ITurnGirlsGay]

Fitch, end of story.

He's the most boring fucker on the face of the planet, but he can beat anyone in that division not named GSP. Fitch is already on the P4P rankings list and is the #2 WW in the world. I hate that man with all of my heart, but Fitch hasn't lost to anyone other than GSP since finding his stride in MMA.

If he gets through Penn, he will have beaten Alves (Twice), Saunders, Thiago, Gono, Sanchez, and Pierce.

He'll never fight Koscheck, so throw that out the window. This really isn't much of a debate. Fitch will take the title and hold it for quite some time if GSP moves up to MW.

 

[The Best]

Once GSP is gone Fitch is by far the best welterweight contender in the ufc, especially if he can beat BJ tomorrow night. If he can beat BJ he would have won 20 of his last 21 fights(the only loss of course to GSP), and only losing once in 8 years(which is something GSP himself hasn't done).

Another contender could be Dong-Hyun Kim, possibly the best judo practitioner in the ufc since Karo Parisyan. The guy is undefeated with one draw and one no contest. He's beaten guys like Amir Sadollah and Nate Diaz. Also, he's already called out GSP.

Also, guys like Carlos Condit, Martin Kampman, Jake Ellenberger, and Jake Shields(who if he can make the GSP a jiu-jitsu match would win the title) are also great talents.

 

[jmt225]

Before we all start saying "Fitch this and Fitch that," let's see how well he does against BJ Penn, first. If Fitch is not able to defeat Penn, then there's no way he'll ever be a long term champion.

Moreover, let's just not assume GSP will beat Shields. Shields has everything it takes to beat GSP; don't underestimate this guy.

Now, if Fitch does beat Penn and GSP beats Shields and then moves up to Middleweight, I would still take Shields over Fitch any day of the week. Shields has already dominated Fitch in a grappling match a few years ago, and there's no doubt in my mind he would do the exact same thing today in an MMA bout.

So, yeah.. if there's no GSP to worry about, and Penn loses to Fitch, then I fully believe Shields would take over the division, IF Shields himself didn't move up to Middleweight in the process.

 

[ITurnGirlsGay]

Before we all start saying "Fitch this and Fitch that," let's see how well he does against BJ Penn, first. If Fitch is not able to defeat Penn, then there's no way he'll ever be a long term champion.

Moreover, let's just not assume GSP will beat Shields. Shields has everything it takes to beat GSP; don't underestimate this guy.

Now, if Fitch does beat Penn and GSP beats Shields and then moves up to Middleweight, I would still take Shields over Fitch any day of the week. Shields has already dominated Fitch in a grappling match a few years ago, and there's no doubt in my mind he would do the exact same thing today in an MMA bout.

So, yeah.. if there's no GSP to worry about, and Penn loses to Fitch, then I fully believe Shields would take over the division, IF Shields himself didn't move up to Middleweight in the process.

I disagree. Shields is an absolute joke. I'm tired of the ass-kissing that Shields gets. Mayhem fucking beat him, worked him over, and out-grappled him. In my opinion, Mayhem got hosed on that judges decision. If Mayhem Miller could handle Shields on the feet and on the ground like he did, what the hell do you think a GSP in his PRIME is going to do against Shields?

Shields would be the dumbest son of a bitch on the planet if he did move up to middleweight in the UFC. The guy's nickname is "Pillow Hands." I'd pick Goulet to win slugfest before I'd pick Shields to knock someone out. Jiu-Jitsu and mediocre wrestling will only get you so far in the MW division of the UFC.

Yes, I said it, mediocre wrestling. Shields IS like a lead blanket once he gets you down, but his takedowns, doubles, and singles are among the worst I've ever seen anyone attempt.

Sexylama would beat Shields at MW, I'd take Belfort over Shields at MW, probably take Falcao, Leben, A-Train, Maia, Sonnen, and Stann over Shields. The guy cannot box, period. He's the absolute WORST stand-up fighter in the P4P rankings (except maybe Fitch) and I have absolutely no idea how he's even in the P4P rankings.

He has some seriously weak sauce wins for a P4P fighter and NONE that I would consider to be great.

That was about Middleweight, though. GSP will walk through Shields with the greatest of ease. I have ZERO doubt in my mind. GSP is a much better wrestler than Shields, his BJJ is just as good, if nothing else, from a defensive standpoint, and GSP is EASILY the better stand-up fighter with more power.

I don't understand the Shields kool-aid. Of course it's easy to look like you're amazing when you're fighting washed up/one trick Pride and UFC champions/contenders.

 

[jmt225]

I disagree. Shields is an absolute joke. I'm tired of the ass-kissing that Shields gets. Mayhem fucking beat him, worked him over, and out-grappled him. In my opinion, Mayhem got hosed on that judges decision. If Mayhem Miller could handle Shields on the feet and on the ground like he did, what the hell do you think a GSP in his PRIME is going to do against Shields?

I'm a huge Mayhem fan, but what fight were you watching, man? Shields dominated Mayhem in the first round grappling wise, by mounting him and laying down a lot of good ground and pound. 2nd Round was even. 3rd Round went to Mayhem. And the last 2 rounds Shields blanketed Mayhem.

The judges decision in that one was fair.

Shields would be the dumbest son of a bitch on the planet if he did move up to middleweight in the UFC. The guy's nickname is "Pillow Hands." I'd pick Goulet to win slugfest before I'd pick Shields to knock someone out. Jiu-Jitsu and mediocre wrestling will only get you so far in the MW division of the UFC.

So Shield's hands are weak, but so are Fitch's, yet you're picking him to dominate the Welterweight Division once GSP leaves. Weak hands means nothing in this sport when you're good at other aspects of fighting.

Yes, I said it, mediocre wrestling. Shields IS like a lead blanket once he gets you down, but his takedowns, doubles, and singles are among the worst I've ever seen anyone attempt.

... what? Shields goes for the finish in every single one of his fights. He doesn't just lay there... he passes guard and looks for submissions. The only exception was the last 2 Rounds of the Mayhem fight, in which it was the intelligent thing to do since Shields gassed out (and even a gassed out Shields was able to take Mayhem down at will).

Also, who have you seen be able to take Hendo down with such ease? You can call Hendo a has-been and all that nonsense, but I've never seen him dominated like Shields dominated him.

Sexylama would beat Shields at MW, I'd take Belfort over Shields at MW, probably take Falcao, Leben, A-Train, Maia, Sonnen, and Stann over Shields. The guy cannot box, period. He's the absolute WORST stand-up fighter in the P4P rankings (except maybe Fitch) and I have absolutely no idea how he's even in the P4P rankings.

I agree, he can't box, but his wrestling and BJJ are PHENOMENAL. That's all he needs to beat those guys.

That was about Middleweight, though. GSP will walk through Shields with the greatest of ease. I have ZERO doubt in my mind. GSP is a much better wrestler than Shields, his BJJ is just as good, if nothing else, from a defensive standpoint, and GSP is EASILY the better stand-up fighter with more power.

Only time will tell, bro. If Shields shows up in shape, he will give GSP his toughest fight since the first fight GSP had against BJ Penn. I guarantee it.

 

[ITurnGirlsGay]

I'm a huge Mayhem fan, but what fight were you watching, man? Shields dominated Mayhem in the first round grappling wise, by mounting him and laying down a lot of good ground and pound. 2nd Round was even. 3rd Round went to Mayhem. And the last 2 rounds Shields blanketed Mayhem.

The judges decision in that one was fair.

I walked away from that one feeling like Mayhem won. I might need to rewatch, but I was pissed at the time, I remember that much.

So Shield's hands are weak, but so are Fitch's, yet you're picking him to dominate the Welterweight Division once GSP leaves. Weak hands means nothing in this sport when you're good at other aspects of fighting.

Weak hands at the middleweight division will most certainly prove to be his downfall. If you seriously think that Shields can push around UFC Middleweights like he did the MW's in StrikeForce, I have a 30 pack wager I'd like to offer you. He's not the strongest man in the sport and if his takedowns are stuffed, he will get the brakes beaten off him by the power and speed at Middleweight.

... what? Shields goes for the finish in every single one of his fights. He doesn't just lay there... he passes guard and looks for submissions. The only exception was the last 2 Rounds of the Mayhem fight, in which it was the intelligent thing to do since Shields gassed out (and even a gassed out Shields was able to take Mayhem down at will).

Being a lead blanket wasn't implying that he wasn't looking for submission attempts. I merely implied that his takedowns are not at all great and his doubles and singles are actually pretty bad for someone who's supposed to be a wrestler.

Do yourself a favor and watch GSP, Velasquez, Lesnar, Rashad, or Tito back in his hayday. They explode through their takedowns and impose their will on their opponents. Shields can do nothing of the sort. His takedowns are more along the lines of a Maia or Yahya. He gets a hold of them and uses sweeps and drags. Classic Caesar Gracie jiu-jitsu. Definitely not something that is going to work against men who are bigger and stronger than him. Even Sonnen explodes through his takedowns. Sonnen would, literally, explode in to Shields and force him to the ground. Shields struggled keeping Kampmann on the mat. He's not going to be able to do that to much larger, stronger, and more accomplished wrestlers.

Also, who have you seen be able to take Hendo down with such ease? You can call Hendo a has-been and all that nonsense, but I've never seen him dominated like Shields dominated him.

Again, Henderson had been off for almost a year and came in clearly out of shape. He's also 39 years of age and battle tested. That does not prove anything to me. It shows me that Shields was an active fighter who had been defending his belt and Henderson had ring rust and age against him. I'll change my tune if he can do that to Georges.

I agree, he can't box, but his wrestling and BJJ are PHENOMENAL. That's all he needs to beat those guys.

His BJJ is phenomenal. His wrestling is decent. As I've already stated, he lacks the ability to utilize doubles and singles with great effectiveness. He's not an explosive wrestler like Velasquez, GSP, or Lesnar. Their wrestling is amazing. Couture's wrestling is amazing.

Shields is nothing more than the most well rounded fighter in an organization that lacks well rounded fighters. His first fight in the UFC was a split decision victory that many don't feel he won. Once the competition stepped up, Shields had to work that much harder and barely survived. The most dominant fighter in StrikeForce wound up barely winning a split decision. What does that tell you?

Only time will tell, bro. If Shields shows up in shape, he will give GSP his toughest fight since the first fight GSP had against BJ Penn. I guarantee it.

Shields can show up in whatever shape he wants, GSP will walk out of there with the belt in another unanimous decision. It won't be close and Shields won't win a round. GSP has passed the guard, at will, of a BJJ player with the grappling credentials (maybe better) of Shields in B.J. Penn

 

[jmt225]

Weak hands at the middleweight division will most certainly prove to be his downfall. If you seriously think that Shields can push around UFC Middleweights like he did the MW's in StrikeForce, I have a 30 pack wager I'd like to offer you. He's not the strongest man in the sport and if his takedowns are stuffed, he will get the brakes beaten off him by the power and speed at Middleweight.

But nobody will be able to stuff his takedowns, I don't think. That's the thing... I don't see anybody who has the ability in the Middleweight Division to keep Shields from taking him down, except for maybe Chael Sonnen.

Shields' double leg is not based on strength, but on quickness and athleticism. The only reason he was able to take guys like Hendo and Mayhem down so easily was because of those two qualities. Surely both are much stronger than him just because of the size difference alone, but much like GSP's takedowns, Shields doesn't rely on strength to take his opponent down.

Do yourself a favor and watch GSP, Velasquez, Lesnar, Rashad, or Tito back in his hayday. They explode through their takedowns and impose their will on their opponents. Shields can do nothing of the sort.

I agree with you that Shields' ground and pound is REALLY weak, but that's where his Jiu-Jitsu comes into play. He's literally the only great wrestler in the sport who also has amazing Jiu-Jitsu skills. It's why he has an advantage over anyone he steps in the cage with.

Now, as far as calling his singles and doubles weak, I just don't see how you can claim that when he was able to takedown at will the following names:

Dan Henderson
Mayhem Miller
Mike Pyle
Carlos Condit
Yushin Okami
Hayato Sakurai

Bro, you don't take these kinds of names down without great wrestling. I don't see how you could ever disagree with this.

Shields is nothing more than the most well rounded fighter in an organization that lacks well rounded fighters. His first fight in the UFC was a split decision victory that many don't feel he won. Once the competition stepped up, Shields had to work that much harder and barely survived. The most dominant fighter in StrikeForce wound up barely winning a split decision. What does that tell you?

It tells me that Shields for over a year and a half was fighting at Middleweight, and that taking that cut back down to Welterweight took a lot out of him. You and I know both know that wasn't the same Jake Shields we saw against Hendo and Mayhem in that fight against Kampmann, yet he was still able to defeat a top 10 UFC Welterweight regardless (not a top 10 Welterweight period, but a top 10 Welterweight in the UFC).

Shields can show up in whatever shape he wants, GSP will walk out of there with the belt in another unanimous decision. It won't be close and Shields won't win a round. GSP has passed the guard, at will, of a BJJ player with the grappling credentials (maybe better) of Shields in B.J. Penn

Haha... man, I hope you're still posting regularly once this fight rolls around. It's going to be fun to see your reaction when Shields proves you wrong.

I'm not saying I'm positive Shields will win; however, I am positive Shields will give GSP his hardest fight in years. Mark my words.

 

[ITurnGirlsGay]

But nobody will be able to stuff his takedowns, I don't think. That's the thing... I don't see anybody who has the ability in the Middleweight Division to keep Shields from taking him down, except for maybe Chael Sonnen.

Shields' double leg is not based on strength, but on quickness and athleticism. The only reason he was able to take guys like Hendo and Mayhem down so easily was because of those two qualities. Surely both are much stronger than him just because of the size difference alone, but much like GSP's takedowns, Shields doesn't rely on strength to take his opponent down.

Yes, like I said, he's a grabs and drag fighter. It's not going to work in the UFC at MW. The fighters are too strong. Henderson is past his prime and Hendo is not a litmus test for how good the fighters are in the MW division. As I've already stated, Shields had a hard time keeping Kampmann down and he's just a welterweight, please tell me how he plans on keeping down Sexyama, Leben, Aaron Simpson, Falcao, Anderson Silva, or even Bisping?

I agree with you that Shields' ground and pound is REALLY weak, but that's where his Jiu-Jitsu comes into play. He's literally the only great wrestler in the sport who also has amazing Jiu-Jitsu skills. It's why he has an advantage over anyone he steps in the cage with.

Uh Georges St. Pierre's BJJ is just as good as Shields. Donaher is probably one of the top names that you can train with not named Gracie. Even then, Donaher is in the Gracie line, he got his black belt from Renzo and teaches at his gym in New York.

GSP might not have as many submission wins, but he also has more wins from GnP and one of those submission wins is because he, literally, beat his opponent so bad his brother threw in the towel. Great Jiu Jitsu doesn't necessarily mean you're racking up submission victory after submission victory. Ability to move and transition on the ground on parts of the BJJ game and nobody does it better than GSP.

Shields got just about all of his submission wins on people who had little to no idea what they were doing on the ground. That's like saying Randy Couture is a submission specialist because he choked out James Toney. Before you mention Mike Pyle is a quality submission win, Pyle has more submission losses than any other method. Same with Robbie Lawler.

Shields doesn't have one submission against a big name. Those are all decision victories.

Now, as far as calling his singles and doubles weak, I just don't see how you can claim that when he was able to takedown at will the following names:

Dan Henderson

Old, out of shape, hadn't fought in a year. I am willing to bet that wouldn't happen now.

Mayhem Miller

Good win, but Mayhem isn't exactly a world beater

Mike Pyle

Pretty much prone to losing by submission

Carlos Condit

He's not really known for his ground game, but okay

Yushin Okami

Okami struggle with wrestlers. He barely got past Munoz and got steamrolled by Sonnen, but good win.

Hayato Sakurai

As it turns out, Sakurai wasn't that good to begin with. He was hyped up and made out to be a world beater and then got destroyed by anyone who was any good.

Bro, you don't take these kinds of names down without great wrestling. I don't see how you could ever disagree with this.

They aren't really "great" names. Certainly not Fitch, Alves, Hughes, or Penn. You don't beat them without great wrestling either. Shields WON'T beat them.

It tells me that Shields for over a year and a half was fighting at Middleweight, and that taking that cut back down to Welterweight took a lot out of him. You and I know both know that wasn't the same Jake Shields we saw against Hendo and Mayhem in that fight against Kampmann, yet he was still able to defeat a top 10 UFC Welterweight regardless (not a top 10 Welterweight period, but a top 10 Welterweight in the UFC).

And you and I both know that wasn't the same Henderson that fought Bisping or against people like Rampage, but you're still acting like it was when you say "Shields dominated Hendo." You can't have it both ways.

Haha... man, I hope you're still posting regularly once this fight rolls around. It's going to be fun to see your reaction when Shields proves you wrong.

I'm not saying I'm positive Shields will win; however, I am positive Shields will give GSP his hardest fight in years. Mark my words.

I'm not going anywhere, buddy and when GSP wins that fight 50-45 on every judges scorecard I'll snicker all the way to the beer isle.

 

[Ace Sleeper]

Ha, now it seems as if Fitch fought a good wrestler he would lose, bad. Which is exactly what happened with GSP.

BJ isn't known for his wrestling (other then takedown defense), and he was out wrestling Fitch at first. If Fitch got a good wrestler with cardio, he would be in major trouble.

I honestly can't see Fitch taking over after tonight, getting out wrestled by BJ Penn. I'll need him to beat a good wrestler to convince me again.

 

[ITurnGirlsGay]

I can't believe I'm about to do this, but here goes:

People are giving Fitch too much shit for this. Nobody, and I mean, NOBODY, thought BJ would come out and go for take-downs and press Fitch up against the cage. Even Joe Rogan was shocked at BJ's gameplan, and guess what? It worked. He got the draw, because once Fitch adjusted to his gameplan, he fucking TORCHED BJ.

Fitch landed 149 strikes in the third round. BJ landed ZERO. That's impressive. Fitch was just shocked by BJ's gameplan. I can honestly say, in a rematch, it will look a lot more like the 3rd than the first or second.

 

[Ace Sleeper]

I can't believe I'm about to do this, but here goes:

People are giving Fitch too much shit for this. Nobody, and I mean, NOBODY, thought BJ would come out and go for take-downs and press Fitch up against the cage. Even Joe Rogan was shocked at BJ's gameplan, and guess what? It worked. He got the draw, because once Fitch adjusted to his gameplan, he fucking TORCHED BJ.

Fitch landed 149 strikes in the third round. BJ landed ZERO. That's impressive. Fitch was just shocked by BJ's gameplan. I can honestly say, in a rematch, it will look a lot more like the 3rd than the first or second.

That's complete bullshit.

BJ was controlling Fitch on the ground for almost all of 2 rounds. Fitch couldn't get anything going in those two rounds other then some cage clinch and turning him over, and when he actually got Penn down, he just punched BJ in the body and it didn't do anything but help gas him for the inevitable third round. BJ gave him the damn guard in the third round too, which is where Fitch actually had time to turn it on. He sprawled on Fitch and gave up his guard. He even admitted that he should have lost because of that mistake.

Fitch didn't torch shit other then constant baby shots. I'll admit he didn't stop once and did some damage, but it took him the whole fight to do anything. He was on top before that third round and he got nothing from it. And if Fitch was really that 'shocked' by BJ's gameplan then that just shows he takes too long to adjust. Trust me, when he fights a real wrestler he will really get exposed.

Jon Fitch is good, don't get me wrong, but what wrestlers has he fought?

Georges St. Pierre - Kicked the hell out of Jon Fitch
Mike Pierce - What was his biggest claim to fame? Beating Brock Larson? Ha.

And that's it. So he fights one legit wrestler in his UFC career and when he does he gets 'torched'. If there were actually any good wrestlers in the Welterweight division then Fitch would be in real trouble, luckily for him the only one that would cause problems to him out side of Georges is Josh Koscheck, and they won't fight each other.

Now BJ Penn takes him down and you blame it on being 'shocked'? Sure that might have come into play but the fact is BJ Penn was controlling Jon Fitch on the ground and the takedowns before the last part of the fight. BJ won that first round and arguably won the second, it was much more then just being shocked. And how can you say that the rematch would look more like the third then the other two, when Fitch was having a hard time taking BJ down before he started gassing? Can I also remind you that before BJ gassed, he was popping right back up off the takedowns? Fitch couldn't get anything going until the third.

And I like the fact that you brought Joe Rogan being surprised into the argument. Because the stoner comedian is the one we should be listening to for opinions, lol.

 

[ITurnGirlsGay]

That's complete bullshit.

BJ was controlling Fitch on the ground for almost all of 2 rounds. Fitch couldn't get anything going in those two rounds other then some cage clinch and turning him over, and when he actually got Penn down, he just punched BJ in the body and it didn't do anything but help gas him for the inevitable third round. BJ gave him the damn guard in the third round too, which is where Fitch actually had time to turn it on. He sprawled on Fitch and gave up his guard. He even admitted that he should have lost because of that mistake.

Fitch didn't torch shit other then constant baby shots. I'll admit he didn't stop once and did some damage, but it took him the whole fight to do anything. He was on top before that third round and he got nothing from it. And if Fitch was really that 'shocked' by BJ's gameplan then that just shows he takes too long to adjust. Trust me, when he fights a real wrestler he will really get exposed.

Jon Fitch is good, don't get me wrong, but what wrestlers has he fought?

Georges St. Pierre - Kicked the hell out of Jon Fitch
Mike Pierce - What was his biggest claim to fame? Beating Brock Larson? Ha.

And that's it. So he fights one legit wrestler in his UFC career and when he does he gets 'torched'. If there were actually any good wrestlers in the Welterweight division then Fitch would be in real trouble, luckily for him the only one that would cause problems to him out side of Georges is Josh Koscheck, and they won't fight each other.

Now BJ Penn takes him down and you blame it on being 'shocked'? Sure that might have come into play but the fact is BJ Penn was controlling Jon Fitch on the ground and the takedowns before the last part of the fight. BJ won that first round and arguably won the second, it was much more then just being shocked. And how can you say that the rematch would look more like the third then the other two, when Fitch was having a hard time taking BJ down before he started gassing? Can I also remind you that before BJ gassed, he was popping right back up off the takedowns? Fitch couldn't get anything going until the third.

And I like the fact that you brought Joe Rogan being surprised into the argument. Because the stoner comedian is the one we should be listening to for opinions, lol.

I'll try this from another angle. I HATE Jon Fitch.

I'm questioning your working knowledge of how MMA is scored because you're using a lot of terms that aren't really applicable here.

BJ was controlling Fitch on the ground for almost all of 2 rounds. Fitch couldn't get anything going in those two rounds other then some cage clinch and turning him over, and when he actually got Penn down, he just punched BJ in the body and it didn't do anything but help gas him for the inevitable third round.

Seriously, re-read this statement and tell me if you find any flaws with your reasoning. Reversals are a HUGE component of the ground game and Fitch was able to reverse a dominant position twice. That's pretty big even if it doesn't win you the round, reversing position on a dominant BJJ black-belt is no small feat and probably saved Jon Fitch in more ways than one.

Cage clinch is still "effective striking" and "octagon control," dude.

Also, you say that his punches didn't do anything BUT help to gas BJ? Guess what? THAT WAS THE FUCKING POINT AND IT WORKED!! How can you seriously say it didn't do anything when it did EXACTLY what it was supposed to do? BJ Penn was fucking exhausted in the third and that allowed Fitch to get a 10-8 saving his ass.

150 strikes to ZERO is a torching. Also, I wonder, did you have your volume down to zero when you watched that fight because they weren't ALL baby shots. I watch my fights at max volume and I can tell you that those punches were landing with authority and were fucking hurting BJ. Fitch blasted BJ on the ground and that's why he got a 10-8.

You can definitely shock an opponent in the octagon. That's why they have this thing called "adjustments" during round changes. You even pointed out this out when you said this:

BJ won that first round and arguably won the second

The first round shocked Fitch, he made adjustments in the second round and it was arguable either way. The third round Fitch imposed his will and it looked like a typical Jon Fitch fight.

I can say that the rematch would look more like the third because Fitch won't make the mistake of thinking BJ won't shoot on him and take him down and will go for TD's of his own and work his GnP. Once you've learned that your opponent can do something against that you've never seen them do, you make the necessary adjustments and plan accordingly next time. Fitch even admitted that he did not train for that, AT ALL. Next time, he will, and the fight will look a lot different.

 

[Ace Sleeper]

I'll try this from another angle. I HATE Jon Fitch.

I'm questioning your working knowledge of how MMA is scored because you're using a lot of terms that aren't really applicable here.



Seriously, re-read this statement and tell me if you find any flaws with your reasoning. Reversals are a HUGE component of the ground game and Fitch was able to reverse a dominant position twice. That's pretty big even if it doesn't win you the round, reversing position on a dominant BJJ black-belt is no small feat and probably saved Jon Fitch in more ways than one.

Cage clinch is still "effective striking" and "octagon control," dude.

Also, you say that his punches didn't do anything BUT help to gas BJ? Guess what? THAT WAS THE FUCKING POINT AND IT WORKED!! How can you seriously say it didn't do anything when it did EXACTLY what it was supposed to do? BJ Penn was fucking exhausted in the third and that allowed Fitch to get a 10-8 saving his ass.

150 strikes to ZERO is a torching. Also, I wonder, did you have your volume down to zero when you watched that fight because they weren't ALL baby shots. I watch my fights at max volume and I can tell you that those punches were landing with authority and were fucking hurting BJ. Fitch blasted BJ on the ground and that's why he got a 10-8.

You can definitely shock an opponent in the octagon. That's why they have this thing called "adjustments" during round changes. You even pointed out this out when you said this:



The first round shocked Fitch, he made adjustments in the second round and it was arguable either way. The third round Fitch imposed his will and it looked like a typical Jon Fitch fight.

I can say that the rematch would look more like the third because Fitch won't make the mistake of thinking BJ won't shoot on him and take him down and will go for TD's of his own and work his GnP. Once you've learned that your opponent can do something against that you've never seen them do, you make the necessary adjustments and plan accordingly next time. Fitch even admitted that he did not train for that, AT ALL. Next time, he will, and the fight will look a lot different.

I understand he 'torched' him in the third round, but it wasn't before BJ gassed. That was my point. And do you not see a problem with that? Fitch only works to gas his opponents and still doesn't finish? And you said you have your TV at max, maybe that's why you heard them so well? lol. And I know reversals are an important part, but what the hell did he do with them? That's why BJ was winning by control. He couldn't get the body triangle because of Fitch's size, and Fitch turned him over, but BJ kept him in the guard. That's still control. Just because Fitch rolled over doesn't argue for winning the round. He arguably won the second because he got takedowns, but BJ popped right back up. Also, when it comes to the cage clinch, you realize that BJ was controlling him on the fence before that third, more then Fitch was to him? Again, if they weren't doing anything, I don't understand how that out scores BJ taking him down and almost sinking multiple subs.

Fact is Fitch didn't doing anything until that third round, and you said it, it saved his ass. He got saved by a gassed BJ that pulled guard. How does that not deserve shit? He wasn't impressive at all this fight.

 

[Fizzy]

I'd take Jake Shields over Jon Fitch, but that is another story for another day, and another thread. I believe that either BJ, Shields, or Fitch will be the prominent WW in the UFC after GSP moves onto bigger and better things. Of course with GSP gone the WW division becomes way more interesting, with many interesting matchups. I don't think that there will be a champion like Matt Hughes, and GSP in the WW division unless a smaller Jon Jones type comes in, and looks phenomenal. So once GSP moves up the WW division becomes a lot more equal, and interesting.

 

[ITurnGirlsGay]

I understand he 'torched' him in the third round, but it wasn't before BJ gassed. That was my point. And do you not see a problem with that? Fitch only works to gas his opponents and still doesn't finish? And you said you have your TV at max, maybe that's why you heard them so well? lol. And I know reversals are an important part, but what the hell did he do with them? That's why BJ was winning by control. He couldn't get the body triangle because of Fitch's size, and Fitch turned him over, but BJ kept him in the guard. That's still control. Just because Fitch rolled over doesn't argue for winning the round. He arguably won the second because he got takedowns, but BJ popped right back up. Also, when it comes to the cage clinch, you realize that BJ was controlling him on the fence before that third, more then Fitch was to him? Again, if they weren't doing anything, I don't understand how that out scores BJ taking him down and almost sinking multiple subs.

Fact is Fitch didn't doing anything until that third round, and you said it, it saved his ass. He got saved by a gassed BJ that pulled guard. How does that not deserve shit? He wasn't impressive at all this fight.

I agree with you, Fitch is a boring ass fighter, but that doesn't discount his ability to reverse position on BJ. Whether it was due to his size or Fitch's Guerrilla Jiu-Jitsu is irrelevant since BJ decided he wanted to fight at Welterweight.

Whether or not they "do anything" is irrelevant in the minds of the judges, they look for the active fighter, which Fitch was in the third. BJ was completely in-active in the third. Yes, that third round saved Fitch's ass. He would have lost the fight had it not been for the third. 2 of the 3 judges gave Penn two rounds and even a 10-9 round from Fitch would have resulted in a loss. But that's where you have to give Fitch credit, he KNEW he needed a huge round and he delivered one.

Fitch hasn't been "impressive," at least to me, in ANY fight. But at the end of the day, NEITHER fighter deserves anything for this fight because it was a draw.

 

[Ace Sleeper]

I agree with you, Fitch is a boring ass fighter, but that doesn't discount his ability to reverse position on BJ. Whether it was due to his size or Fitch's Guerrilla Jiu-Jitsu is irrelevant since BJ decided he wanted to fight at Welterweight.

Whether or not they "do anything" is irrelevant in the minds of the judges, they look for the active fighter, which Fitch was in the third. BJ was completely in-active in the third. Yes, that third round saved Fitch's ass. He would have lost the fight had it not been for the third. 2 of the 3 judges gave Penn two rounds and even a 10-9 round from Fitch would have resulted in a loss. But that's where you have to give Fitch credit, he KNEW he needed a huge round and he delivered one.

Fitch hasn't been "impressive," at least to me, in ANY fight. But at the end of the day, NEITHER fighter deserves anything for this fight because it was a draw.

Well I'm glad we can agree then. The only reason I was arguing because you said BJ was getting torched. In the third he was getting beaten up on, but before that there wasn't much.

Either way now we don't have a contender so it seems like they're going to have to have a rematch.

 

[ITurnGirlsGay]

Well I'm glad we can agree then. The only reason I was arguing because you said BJ was getting torched. In the third he was getting beaten up on, but before that there wasn't much.

Either way now we don't have a contender so it seems like they're going to have to have a rematch.

If GSP beats Shields and moves up, do it for the belt, I don't care. Fitch was bound to win that fucker at some point after GSP left. Even if it was a style match-up that favored him.