Where are all the angles?

[Blade]

Now, I want everyone to have a quick think about their favourite angles in WWF/E throughout the years. Randy Savage's growing jealousy and eventual betrayal of Hogan, Owen vs Bret in brother vs brother, Shawn Michaels with the boyhood dream, Triple H runs over Stone Cold, Batista's growing desire to hold the World Title even though it's held by his Evolution team mate. These are all real angles, real storylines. They lasted for months and had real events happen during them. Event other than promos and attacks from behind. They had twists and turns and made you want to see what would happen next. But we just don't see any storylines anymore. And considering pro wrestling is supposed to be a male soap opera, you'd think there would be a few storylines floating about.

Think of recent rivalries: Sheamus vs Cena, Undertaker vs Batista, Drew McIntyre vs John Morrison, DX vs Jerishow. When you really think about it, none of these have had any storylines or angles. They've all just followed a pattern of 1) They quite dislike each other, 2) They cut promos on each other, 3) They occasionally attack each other (optional), 4) They have a few matches. They may tack on a stipulation, like Jericho leaves Raw or Cena vs Sheamus is a tables. But these aren't angles. They're feuds, but they aren't angles.

Even when you think about the really popular "angles" in recent times, Hardy vs Punk, Orton vs Kofi, HBK vs Undertaker, The Miz vs Cena etc... They weren't really angles.

The Miz vs Cena: They cut a couple of promos then had some matches.

HBK vs Undertaker: See above, except with occasional mention of The Streak.

Punk vs Jeff Hardy: Promos, attacks and matches based on dislike. At first, when Punk was playing the tweener role, there was an angle. There was Punk as the misunderstood guys who just wanted to win the title and the crowd turning against him for doing it on Hardy. But then it just morphed into they dislike each other, promos, attacks, matches.

Orton vs Kofi: Again, it started with an angle. Orton blamed Kofi for costing him the WWE title. But that last, what, like 3 weeks? Then it just got into the pattern of dislike, promos, attacks and matches.

All feuds. All good feuds, too. But none of them are angles.

When you really think about it, this is a huge problem. But what's causing it? Is it just WWE's creative staff and their lazyness at an all time high? Or have WWE gotten to a point where they think they don't really need angles anymore?

Personally I think Vince just burned himself out in the attitude era and in the years after it. He was churning out storylines every week and now he just hasn't got any real ideas that aren't recycled. And the face that they've got those stupid Hollywood writers on staff can't help, either.

So, what do you think?

 

[Dave]

You are definitely right, Blade.

You see, to my mind, the WWE seem to be missing the biggest factor in making their company interesting and that is intriguing angles that we can all get behind. In my mind, a vicious circle is starting to appear and with damaging effects. I think that the WWE are trying far too hard to get us behind rivalries that we do not care about on the whole. Little do they know that we don't care. We need to be told a story and they seem to missing that point. You look back at the Attitude Era and how heavy it was with angles that made us laugh, cry and cringe. Back then, the WWE knew how to get us interested in the angles that they developed and they gave us a great build, that meant that we could enjoy seeing the same matches over and over again. However, in this day and age, we are no happy seeing that. I think it has something to do with not having any solid angles behind it. The last angle that I can remember the WWE even caring about was the angle with Triple H and Randy Orton before Wrestlemania. That was an angle that had twists and turns and enthralled us all. Like it or hate it, it was an angle and people could relate to it.

It seems though, that the WWE do not care about that any more and like I said, they seem to want everything this instant. They seem to have forgotten what made their feuds exciting and enthralling in the most angle orientated era in it's history. Personally, I think they have lost sight of the lost art of angles and that will only damage them further. However, coming up to Wrestlemania is generally the time when they pull out all of the stops and I interested in seeing what they have to offer this year before I make any final judgement on it.

 

[fredstephenson]

your absolutly right i think the angles are a big part of what makes you wanna watch the matches and they seem to have almost gone extinct.i think this is another thing that needs sorting out in the wwe.i think it is because wwe is trying to take itself more seriously and give the matches a more legitamate sport feel even though its not one but while it does this it also has ridiculous skits with hornswoggle and the rest so it doesnt work but besides that i liked wwe just as much for the angles and storylines as i did for the matches it makes you wanna keep tuning in week after week to see the story unfold rather then the random matches that they seem to throw together every week now it makes watching a match more interesting if it has a backstory

 

[Y-2-Jay]

Blade i think you can read minds because i was close to doing this sort of thread.


Let me start of by saying I miss when they used to have awesome stories that would have you glued to the screen wondering what was going to happen(mostly in the attitude era) and also the upcoming weeks and would get you excited for the big blow off match. It was awesome when the WWE did stuff like the who done it storyline which is my favorite storyline. Examples are like the who ran over austin and to me knowledge the most recent one was back in 2007 when khali attacked HBK, Edge and Orton no one knew who did it and when khali came out it shocked the hell out of everyone i loved that sort of stuff.

In the WWE these days there is hardly any stories anymore the last real storyline was the CM punk Vs Hardy where CM punk would look down on hardy for having 2 strikes and also the fans supporting hardy as well. And that was like 6 months ago WWE is now more about wrestling matches but i hate it like that. My perfect WWE would be where its balanced between storylines and matches

 

[whitefox]

You've got it spot on.

I came very close to stopping watching wrestling recently because I had became so bored with RAW. It's predictable, I hate 95% of the guest hosts, and with the frequency that they put on PPVs it seems that they have had to abandon angles because they don't have time to really build them.

It appears to me that RAW has become one big circus act that has sacrificed angles and just uses each show to plug its merchandise and PPV's.

The ONLY reason I continued to watch RAW is because I heard that Bret was returning, If that hadn't have happened I don't think I'd be bothering anymore because there is nothing else to keep me interested.

 

[salopstick]

bret hart aside, how many times have you watched raw over the last few years and thought holy shit i cant wait to watch next weeks show?

exactly

that is what the lazyness of the writing and lack of good angles and stories have done to the show. i think sometimes they rely on the blind loyalty wrestling fans have.

 

[lucas_storm2]

its a fair Debate, I can think of Orton/Triple H, Orton Takes out the Mcmahon family one by one to Finally get retribution on what happened to him in 2004 which would be considered recent

Also the orton/cena feud, and more recently there has been the bret/shawn/vince banter (haha) which Im unsure will grow into a feud.

But your on the mark, For instance survivor series HBK/HHH/John Cena there was a very limited build up and they took more time worrying about pedigreeing Hornswoggle at msg than maybe building tension between michaels and Hunter or DX playing a series of mind games with Cena more, a Triple threat with 3 of the biggest names in modern day wrestling history and they centered it around a midget hardly the modern day makings of a classic

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

Well, the WWE Universe Fans will accept whatever Vince McMahon gives to them, so their perception towards whether angles are needed or not changes on the fly ... depending on whatever Vince so deems to be the direction of his show.

The ones who are completely fine with their being no angles on the shows are the ROH Bots, and as a matter of fact this is their preference. They have a desire to see wrestling taken seriously and almost as a sport in the eyes of the mainstream public, so the less angles the better for them. They feel that the more angles there are, the more over the top the product is, and the more reason the public rolls their eyes at wrestling. So their enjoyment is derived solely from the matches. And that is why so many ROH fans agree with the direction WWE took the past couple years with toning down their product.

As far as my personal opinion on the matter, I have made it quite clear many, many times. If you want people to care about the matches, they have to first care about the wrestlers. One comes before the other. The ROH bots think that one SHOULD care about the wrestlers solely because of their quality of matches, and that should be enough. NO mic skills are needed. No angles are needed. No characters or gimmicks are needed. No storylines are needed .. in their eyes.

I say just the opposite.

Once you make the mainstream audience care about the performers through storylines, angles, and intriguing characters that the audience connects with ... then they will begin to care about their matches. Not before.

So yes, angles are very much needed in wrestling. And good for the fans for tuning out of Survivor Series this year and giving Vince and embarrassingly low number of buys for one of his biggest PPV's of the year because of the lack of angles going into it.

His laziness caught up with him.

 

[whitefox]

But your on the Mark,For instance survivor series HBK/HHH/John Cena there was a very limited build up and they took more time worrying about pedigreeing Hornswoggle at msg than maybe building tension between micheals and Hunter or DX playing a series of mind games with Cena more, a Triple threat with 3 of the biggest names in moderen day wrestling history and they centered it around a midget hardly the modern day makings of a classic

Good example, I wrongly believed that that they couldn't fail to build up a good angle for these 3. It just shows how bad things have gotten. Like I said in my post, it seems that WWE would rather spend their time promoting merchandise and plugging PPVs rather than giving the main event at one of it's flagship PPVs involving 3 of the companies top superstars the proper build up it deserves.

 

[CuddleBuns84]

Boy you guys got it right. I hear what your saying. I liked the old storylines where the heel would just do something so harsh and despicably to the face, that it would cause a hatred for the other, and create a match that the fans have been wanting for. Cena and Orton in 2009 was done so poorly. No hatred created for the two. It was just, I'm the heel and I don't want to lose the title, watch out face! I loved seeing the heel take a family member and beat them up to piss off his opponent. Or take out a friend. Something to build up a match besides the title itself. That's what made the title so worthy of being called world championship. It shows it means a lot to these guys, and that's what the wwe is about. Instead they do this I hate you, attack, have a match, repeat. Some of the best feuds in recent memory had so much more.

 

[Tastycles]

This is by far the biggest problem in WWE today. Wrestling has changed a lot in its history, but the most consistent thing throughout the last 25 years or so is that good wrestling and popular wrestling has always gone hand in hand with great storylines. McMahon vs Austin, Mega Powers etc. these are the foundations upon which wrestling has always been built.

In an age when MMA is running rampant, you will never get anything for building a company based on fake realistic fighting, when you can watch actual fighting on the other channel. Wrestling should market itself on being a soap opera for men, not literally calling themselves that, but that should be the idea. You will never build a big mainstream audience with a realistic angle free product ever again.

 

[gully side adidja]

I think that certain angles can't be done is.............. BECAUSE OF THIS PG ERA,example:austin being run over by a car,triple h calling kane a murderer,nwo attack on the rock with the ambulance,it is way to violent for pg,so wwe has to be as kid friendly as possible, and limit there violence down to just sneak attacks,a chair shot here and there and that's it,imagine a non pg viper randy orton vs a cerebral assassin triple h,IMO the last great angle was,jericho/hbk 08,WWE,BRING BACK THE VIOLENCE,holla!

 

[King Douche]

Well, the WWE Universe Fans will accept whatever Vince McMahon gives to them, so their perception towards whether angles are needed or not changes on the fly ... depending on whatever Vince so deems to be the direction of his show.

The ones who are completely fine with their being no angles on the shows are the ROH Bots, and as a matter of fact this is their preference. They have a desire to see wrestling taken seriously and almost as a sport in the eyes of the mainstream public, so the less angles the better for them. They feel that the more angles there are, the more over the top the product is, and the more reason the public rolls their eyes at wrestling. So their enjoyment is derived solely from the matches. And that is why so many ROH fans agree with the direction WWE took the past couple years with toning down their product.

As far as my personal opinion on the matter, I have made it quite clear many, many times. If you want people to care about the matches, they have to first care about the wrestlers. One comes before the other. The ROH bots think that one SHOULD care about the wrestlers solely because of their quality of matches, and that should be enough. NO mic skills are needed. No angles are needed. No characters or gimmicks are needed. No storylines are needed .. in their eyes.

I say just the opposite.

Once you make the mainstream audience care about the performers through storylines, angles, and intriguing characters that the audience connects with ... then they will begin to care about their matches. Not before.

So yes, angles are very much needed in wrestling. And good for the fans for tuning out of Survivor Series this year and giving Vince and embarrassingly low number of buys for one of his biggest PPV's of the year because of the lack of angles going into it.

His laziness caught up with him.

I really do not see a problem with wrestling being a sport. Its amazing how UFC gets people into their matches with the hype and storyline like of guys hating each other and stuff like that. Yet WWE cannot and their more known for it.

 

[OutsiderDX]

A quick point on this... its the storylines that make wrestling memorable. Match outcomes are more or less meaningless. I can't tell you who won the matches between Jake and Rude.... but i can tell you Rude tried to get Jake's wife to kiss him. And that was 20 years ago.

I can't remember why Kane and Shawn were fueding in 2004, but i do remember Shawn crying poverty and taking a job from JBL... because it had a storyline.

I have a feeling if we put the IWC to work, they could list many storylines from 2009 that have slipped our memory. In fact i would be interesting in a list from 2009 to see how lil or how many storylines there were. Jericho vs Geriatrics was one.

 

[Mr_Wrestling_Number_7]

Does anyone remember Vince getting in the ring a couple of years ago and cut a promo on the phases of the WWE? It was on a Raw and he basically said something like "The Hogan Era was for fans, The Attitude Era was for the ratings..now begins a new Era. One that pleases..me!" He got booed for it but seemed not to care. It seems to me, after this moment several things swiftly changed. Less matches. More comedy. And a bunch of what looked like gimmick 'trial runs' or characters. It was as if, he no longer cared about explaining why a superstar was there in the WWE, he just wanted to see them out there. And if they entertained him, they hung around. If they did not, you never saw them again..or they were repackaged..sometimes several times. *cough*Paul Burchill*cough*

I truly think a lot of this is the fact that John Cena is so over with a certain demographic and Vince and creative have taken an autopilot approach. They'll ride Cena while haphazardly tossing out gimmicks and bad promos because it's all risk free entertainment to Vince.

It seems as if they think we might become bored if we don't see quicker feud buildups and resolutions. When, for me, its the opposite. I love the slow agonizing buildup. Flair's storylines in WCW were so masterful. Just because it was a PPV didn't EVER guarantee that a championship would change hands to his opponent. Which I loved, because you truly didn't know what was going to happen. Now a days, you can almost tell by watching the ebb and flow of Raw or Smackdown when a title change is eminent. This hurts any attempted angles IMO.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

Does anyone remember Vince getting in the ring a couple of years ago and cut a promo on the phases of the WWE? It was on a Raw and he basically said something like "The Hogan Era was for fans, The Attitude Era was for the ratings..now begins a new Era. One that pleases..me!" He got booed for it but seemed not to care. It seems to me, after this moment several things swiftly changed. Less matches. More comedy. And a bunch of what looked like gimmick 'trial runs' or characters. It was as if, he no longer cared about explaining why a superstar was there in the WWE, he just wanted to see them out there. And if they entertained him, they hung around. If they did not, you never saw them again..or they were repackaged..sometimes several times. *cough*Paul Burchill*cough*

That Raw you mentioned is probably the same Raw that I remember where he said something to the effect of "You don't tell me what you want. I Tell YOU what you will like". I wish I knew when that Raw was because I want to save that clip so badly. That was the real arrogant Vince McMahon coming through in the guise of his Mr. McMahon persona. A friend of mine and I who were watching just looked at each other when he said that ... and he said "That was a shoot" ... and it was.

Vince writes his shows to please The Audience of One ... himself. And he figures that he knows what's best for wrestling fans and they will watch regardless of what he puts on the air. Especially as long as there is no competition.

Regarding the angles and storylines, they are just a no brainer in wrestling. They serve to develop the wrestlers and get the wrestlers to make that much needed connection with the audience.

If you just throw two wrestlers in the ring against each other, the audience isn't going to care less. The wrestling alone isn't enough, which I have tried to preach for some time now. You need the angles and other creative elements before the fans will appreciate the wrestling.

 

[CuddleBuns84]

That Raw you mentioned is probably the same Raw that I remember where he said something to the effect of "You don't tell me what you want. I Tell YOU what you will like". I wish I knew when that Raw was because I want to save that clip so badly. That was the real arrogant Vince McMahon coming through in the guise of his Mr. McMahon persona. A friend of mine and I who were watching just looked at each other when he said that ... and he said "That was a shoot" ... and it was.

Vince writes his shows to please The Audience of One ... himself. And he figures that he knows what's best for wrestling fans and they will watch regardless of what he puts on the air. Especially as long as there is no competition.

Regarding the angles and storylines, they are just a no brainer in wrestling. They serve to develop the wrestlers and get the wrestlers to make that much needed connection with the audience.

If you just throw two wrestlers in the ring against each other, the audience isn't going to care less. The wrestling alone isn't enough, which I have tried to preach for some time now. You need the angles and other creative elements before the fans will appreciate the wrestling.

I'm one for big story lines like I said in my previous post. But to say Vince writes a show to just please himself is absurd. One of the main reasons we are in the PG era is because of the Chris Benoit incident in 2007. That's why we don't have the big time story lines involving violence and sex. Vince writes the show to please his share holders and the companies that pay for advertisements. That way he can still do business. The whole reason ratings are a big issue, is because companies want to buy ad time for shows that have decent ratings, but if you are getting big time ratings with story lines that consumers could find offensive, companies won't want to buy ad time because they don't want to be affiliated with something that consumers could find offensive. Getting the ratings boost wasn't even worth the gamble. It's a rough way of doing business, and not fair to us, but Vince isn't writing scripts for his own jollies, he is writing scripts sure the WWE company can be controversy free and not lose share holders. So far now it's watered down wrestling that a family could enjoy to watch.

 

[MisterRob]

Since when does WWE not have angles? WWE hasn't done well with offering in depth storylines sure, they haven't done GREAT angles or elaborate angles, but they do angles. An angle is any motivating factor that is a reason behind a feud. Jeff Hardy and CM Punk had the whole straight edge angle to it. That's an angle. DX vs. Jerishow just recently had the whole 'angle' of Jericho being kicked off RAW permanently, which was the reason behind their matches/feud. That's still an angle. Orton was out for revenge against Kofi, that's an angle. Batista turned on Mysterio and had motivations behind it, didn't he? Which led to their matches and feud. That's an angle. And one could go on and on with every example recently and over the past few years. They're still angles. What they are are more simplified angles, not the elaborate or complicated angles from, let's say, the attitude era. So, it seems what people want is more complex angles and more 'interesting' angles (to them), which the WWE isn't offering and even I'll agree on that.

But maybe that has something to do with the shift to PG? Or the demograph they're aiming at which is a younger audience and so they're trying to do simpler angles that are far more straight forward.

 

[BladeRunner]

Yes there are some okay angles, but if no one can remember them, then what point did they have.

The last good angle I remember was Jericho versus Shawn Michaels. It was built well, didn't overstay it's welcome, had real heel heat, just a lot of what I expect from a good angle.

The problem with simplified angles is, kinda like some of the ones of late, you can guess what's going to happen.

I once read that the number one thing wrestling fans want is to be surprised.

If an angle is too simplistic, if the match is too lopsided, it's no fun really. There's no shock if it's just "Well of course that happened."

Angles can make things seem more even, can flip things around a bit, can surprise the fans with insane things happening out of nowhere.

I just haven't seen that in quite a while from WWE, except for a random good angle here and there. I want them to make me care about every match that goes on in that ring. And I feel like the majority of the matches are throwaway matches, that don't build any angles or feuds, and they just feel wasteful.

 

[Dagger Dias]

I think we have been reaching a point recently when the "true" angles have been replaced by the promos almost entirely. Many feuds lately have mostly just been the two wrestlers calling each other out, having promos, then the match itself. I miss the actual angles myself. The last really great one was between Triple H and Orton during the buildup for Wrestlemania 25. WWE did everything they could to make us care about that feud, and that was great. They should do that more often with other feuds as well. Great storylines lead to great feuds, and better PPV's in the end.

I like awesome promos as much as the next guy, but they cannot replace the storylines. That isn't enough. The promos should be used to help further advance storylines that are already in place, not just hype an upcoming match. Without a storyline, who's going to care about the match unless you just happen to really like at least one of the wrestlers?

That isn't the only problem though. I think another big issue is that it is tough to remain original. So many different storylines have been done in the past and some fans don't like seeing old storylines be recycled. Perhaps WWE is trying to avoid doing that as often.

Or maybe the problem also lies with the loss of gimmicks? Surely it's easier to make up a storyline between "Gimmick A" and "Gimmick B" as opposed to "Personality A" and "Personality B" because many of us have noticed most of the wrestlers now are just personalities or "themselves" these days.

The lack of angles lately can be due to any combination of the things I've listed, or possibly something I left out has to do with it as well. Who knows. What I do know is this.... WWE would be making far more money if they treated every major feud with even half of the attention they gave HHH/Orton last spring because then we as fans would care more about seeing the match and we get great shows in the process leading up to the match.

I miss the big angles too and would like to see them return because wrestling shows and PPV's are so much more enjoyable to watch when you have reasons to care about the matches, the storylines should be just as important as what goes on in the ring.

 

[Motor City Jeezy]

bret hart aside, how many times have you watched raw over the last few years and thought holy shit i cant wait to watch next weeks show?

exactly

that is what the lazyness of the writing and lack of good angles and stories have done to the show. i think sometimes they rely on the blind loyalty wrestling fans have.

I think it's absolute fact that WWE relies on the blind loyalty of its fans. I was one of them until about two years ago when I started looking into the other promotions out there. Regardless of that, I still religiously watched WWE waiting for them to learn something from TNA or RoH. Well... that was until the December 21st edition of RAW. You'll remember it as the episode with Little People's Court and the eventual Hornswaggle becomes a mascot turn. My friend who I watch wrestling with actually fell asleep during the show. When she woke up, she asked me what she missed. I didn't know what to say. There was nothing to be missed. I tuned into RAW for Bret Hart's return, and was grossly disappointed. I was expecting something big to happen between Hart and/or Michaels/Vince. Instead, there was a lot of hugging and a low blow by Vince to wrap up the show. The Hart Dynasty's reaction to it on SmackDown was watered down. I mean... if they can't capitalize on something as epic as the return of Bret Hart, I have no faith that their storylines are going to be improving any time soon.

In an age when MMA is running rampant, you will never get anything for building a company based on fake realistic fighting, when you can watch actual fighting on the other channel. Wrestling should market itself on being a soap opera for men, not literally calling themselves that, but that should be the idea. You will never build a big mainstream audience with a realistic angle free product ever again.

Exactly this. I don't think WWE isn't holding the attention of most of its older audiences anymore. Watching scripted wrestling maneuvers versus watching MMA... the choice is an easy one.

 

[maar130]

I think that now there are too may PPVs and since the WWE has took the resloution of a trend based on the UFC (unfortunately in UFC is no angle, thing is that a champion is able to retain his title for more than 2 defenses like the light Heavy weight Championship since Chuck Liddel lost it) where titles change hands on every PPV, there is no real time to buid up anything.

Batista VS Taker go more to Batista VS Rey since the angle there is They lost they friendship because Batista got tired of being on the losing end, and Mysterio would make sure, at least now Batista doesn't get his hands on the WHC.

On Raw there is no real angle right now and Kofi VS Orton has become a little uninteresting now that Orton has defeated Kofi twice completely clean and has defeated him on the last 3 matches.

Thing is that more than being lazy Vince had fed himself up with too many PPV, good thing they got rid of NYR because at least it would have played to give them more room for astoryline at some point.


Now they would need to get rid of one PPV in october and leave it if the want at 12 (which still seems like much) per year and go from there.