What's wrong with being "carried"?

[Trill Co$by]

Every single time John Cena has a good match, the internet floods with constant whiner babies claiming that John Cena was "carried" during a match. Even with this past Monday's classic five star bout, and yes that's what it is... whether Dave Meltzer wants to claim it or not. And to be honest, I will say that sometimes the complaints are a legit gripe...

But...

Is it really that bad? Take for example, this past Monday once again. It's easy to see at times that Punk is proverbially walking Cena through the steps, and the match comes off looking so crisp and so clean that fans are just in love with the story behind it. In the end, being carried made Cena a much better worker because of it.

And that's not just for this one match. Think about what that says for guys like CM Punk. John Cena trusted Punk to help him through the match, and with a legendary career like his and being guided for so long by top names like Eddie, Rey, and even Raven... does it really seem so bad that Cena would choose to let Punk call the shots? After all, Punk is a far better athlete and SHOULD be the ring general. Any athlete would be honored to be carried by him, so why make Cena out to be a bad guy? Especially since he's been able to flip what he learns from past encounters with the likes of HBK, HHH, and others... and make other stars in return.

Or in TNA... Why would it be bad for someone like say, Kurt Angle to carry someone like Garrett Bischoff? In the end, Bischoff will be learning how to tell stories, work the crowd, and more importantly how to streamline moves so that they don't look out of place. Right now, Angle's doing a great job with Garrett and Wes both, and I think that's something to say for an Olympic Gold Medalist that won it with a broken freakin' neck while posting drunk twitter rants about wanting to beat up CM Punk.

Or just in general. Is it so wrong to be "carried" by someone who IS better rather than looking like a joke? To me, it helps the potential wash outs gain a lot more experience and better them as workers.

 

[ABMorales787]

First off, the idea of Cena being carried by CM Punk is stupider than Meltzer's awards.

Being carried, as in for real, is a bad thing. It means you are incapable of performing a match and need constant direction. Directing a match is something you're supposed to learn in a development territory, so you needing to be carried constantly on the main roster is not a good thing at all. It means you are earning credit for someone else' work. It's understandable if you are a rookie. But if you're 2 or 3 years into it, and you can only have a good match when a veteran, a branded ring general gets a hold of you, you are not good.

 

[The Butcher]

Killjoy is right on the money. It's fine for rookies, but if anyone with a modicum of experience shouldn't be getting carried.

I just equate it to any other job. I know I've certainly been in situations where I've busted my butt while co-workers were jerking off, yet at the end of the day we received equal credit. The job got done, which is the end goal, but I certainly didn't feel that it was okay for me to shoulder the load while sharing the credit.

In anything that involves teamwork, everybody has to do their part. Those who aren't are a hindrance at best and a potential hazard depending on the work being done. It's a sign of the times that we'd entertain the idea that it's okay for some to carry the load while all reap the benefits.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

The IWC is filled with fans who don't want to admit one simple fact: John Cena is a good professional wrestler. A good number of internet fans don't want to give Cena credit because Cena doesn't fit the mold of what many of them consider to be a great pro wrestler. What that means is that Cena is someone that's over 6 feet tall and weighs 225 pounds or more. That means he's not out there doing flippy flops all over the ring or a dozen suicide dives during his matches.

To be "carried" in the correct term means that you're someone that's out of his depth and needs to be carried during a match by someone that knows more than they do. As Killjoy pointed out, that's all well and good for someone that's green and learning the craft. Nobody has "carried" John Cena in his matches just like Punk didn't "carry" him this past Monday. To put on a great match, all the wrestlers involved have to do their part. If you're someone who isn't able to pull your own weight in a wrestling match, then you shouldn't be on the main roster of the biggest wrestling company in the world.

 

[Trill Co$by]

Isn't it also stated that a wrestler is never finished with their training and should always find ways to learn to harness their craft and reinvent themselves? It could be argued that Lesnar carried Undertaker in their Hell in a Cell match, but it still turned out good. Without a doubt, Aries carried Jeff in their championship matches, but it also came out good. I really think it helps sometimes for even veterans to be carried. Sometimes it just shows that the one doing the carrying has far more than enough evidence to get more respect. Maybe it's just me, but sometimes it works.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

What's REALLY stupid is when guys who have no idea how to execute a match or really a concise idea of what goes on in a match make claims like "o he carried the other guy" or "o he botched that" or "o he's not very technical".

The IWC is dumb basically. Collectively it's a lot of people who don't know that they don't know enough, don't have ANY business sense, are egocentric in their fantasy booking (because they don't understand it's a business), and are more of a mark than the actual marks they ridicule.

Cena won't be carried by anyone anytime soon. Shit back in like 2008, 5 years ago, Meltzer and Alvarez were saying if you say Cena sucks in the ring, you lose credibility.

 

[Spinebreaker]

I personally feel that the IWC's problem with Cena, is mainly due to WWE management, not Cena himelf.

WWE wants their top guys to hve 4 or 5 showy, recognisable moves that the rowd pop for. I don't *know* for certain, but I guess John himself would LOVE to mix it up a little in the ring, not only to entertain, but to keep himself entertained also. Cena is perfectly good at what he does, in the role he has. He's been in WWE for at least 10 years now. If he couldn't go in the ring, he wouldn't still be main eventing.

Punk called a lot of the spots in that match, true. Cena called a few, Notably when both men were down on the floor about 15 minutes in. I don't have an issue with it, If both men call the spots, then it would just collapse. One guy has got to be 'in-charge' during most of the match, it seems Punk was booked to 'look strong' despite losing the match, so it only make sense for him to make the calls.

Plus, Cena has been criticised (Fairly IMO) for being too loud and too obvious when he does call the shots. It's possible that Cena knows that it isn't a strong point of his, and prefers to let his opponents call the match. If that's the case, I can only applaud his professionalism.

While I'm a massive TNA fan, check out Impact over the last few months if you want to see a main-event talent REALLY getting carried.

At the end of the day, whoever called it, whoever was helped, led or carried. Punk and Cena put on a top-rate match. Easily gonna be one of the best televised matches of the year. Better than both matches Punk's had with Rock at RR and EC.

Cena and Punk did a great job.

 

[Mustang Sally]

I think the word "carried" is what some folks in this topic are objecting to. The term reminds me of a washed-up boxer being shown mercy by a younger fighter in a tacit agreement to not disgrace the older guy by knocking him out. Sure, it's respectful, but the implication that the old guy can't stand up to the pressure diminishes him in stature if the "carry" is evident.

On the other hand, if one wrestler in a match is a better ring general and is the one to call the verbal instructions, that doesn't mean the other guy can't work. In every dance, someone has to lead but it doesn't subordinate the other.

Pro wrestling, by its nature, is different from every other form of competition in that the guy across the ring isn't actually your enemy; he's your partner. That's a unique concept in sports/sports entertainment; in every other sport, the guy across the ring is your foe. You don't share your strategies with him during a contest.....in football, you see the coaches issue their instructions while holding up a clipboard so the TV cameras can't pick up what they're saying.

In wrestling, it's the opposite; a wrestling match is a joint effort that requires coordination and cooperation. John Cena proved (once again) that he can work with the best. The match with Punk was a great example of two able performers working together to produce a great contest. If Punk is a better worker, then so be it, but there's no way Cena was carried.....the success of the match was due as much to his efforts as Punk's.

An example of all this was that pile-driver. It's been speculated that Vince McMahon was furious that it happened, but I would imagine he knew enough to not blame only Punk for delivering it.....after all, if Cena didn't stand still to take it, there would have been no pile-driver. Nobody was carried, nobody was subordinate.

Cooperation & coordination.

 

[Slyfox696]

I just want to point out that many posters in this thread have been spot on with their recognition of the stupidity in the first post. If anything, Cena was carrying Punk, not the other way around. It was Cena the fans were hot for (cheering or booing). To be clear, it wasn't a carry job by either man, in terms of ring work, but Cena definitely brought the majority of the heat to the match.

John Cena is easily the best wrestler in the United States today, and it's not even questionable at this point.

As far as what's bad about being carried? In a match, nothing really, though usually if one wrestler needs to be carried through a match, the match will not be much more than average. As a wrestler though, "being carried", which is used WAY more often in the IWC than ever actually happens, shows that one wrestler is clearly inferior in terms of understanding how to work a match.

For those ignorants who don't understand wrestling (I'm looking at the thread starter as I say this), please understand that I'm not talking about the guy who does the offense in the match. The offensive is only part of the match. I'm talking about the tactical moving about the ring. I'm talking about the building up, easing down, the overall build of interest in the match and then the final climax of the match. I'm talking about knowing how to tell the story in the ring, how to convey the psychology of the match. But most of all, I'm talking about how to make people care about you.

Great wrestlers like John Cena do those things flawlessly. Guys who need to be carried, have very limited understanding of those things, and rely on guys like Cena to help them work the match.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

I have no idea who carried that match. I don't look for it and didn't see it. Maybe if I watched and listened for verbal and non-verbal cues I could tell you but I have no clue and I'm not going to go back and watch it from that perspective. I pity anyone who watches wrestling for that kind of stuff if they are not getting paid for it.

A great match is a great match. Two great actors in the ring. If one guy gets the directing credit as well, good for him. I don't sign his pay checks so I only know what I see in the ring. Even though Ben Affleck directed Argo I don't believe it makes him any more entitled to a Best Actor Oscar or takes away from the performance of everyone else.

Ideally from management's perspective you want guys that can do both and also know when to defer to the other guy but as a fan or critic I see no good reason to take away from a match or one of the competitors just because one guy was more in charge. The 99 percenters like myself don't know and don't care.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

I'm not going to exaggerate it or anything, I like Cena, I think he's a great performer, vastly underrated by many on the Internet but that's saying very little in the grand scheme of things. He did bring more to the match against Punk on Monday than Punk did. Is that carrying Punk? No. Carrying someone would be say Shawn Michaels carrying Vince McMahon to a passable match and great brawl at WrestleMania 22.

Is there anything wrong with being carried? I imagine to some there is. Some wrestlers take great pride in their ability, they don't want to admit they can't give the thriller their opponent can. An example from my viewing being in Davey Richards shoot DVD he said he carried Kevin Steen because after twenty minutes of pummeling one another Kevin was tired - in this instance Davey used the term in a derogatory fashion to insult Steen's stamina, because to someone like Richards it means something.

I doubt any wrestler wants to be carried. These matches are primarily coreographed going in, they have a set story and they adhere to it. If that story involves the heel beating unmercifully on the face for fifteen minutes before the face makes a comeback and takes the victory, then it isn't carrying, it's the story they wanted to tell. Some fans will spout the term despite having little inclination on what the set plan was, the only people who truly know are the performers and management.

 

[Trill Co$by]

I just want to point out that many posters in this thread have been spot on with their recognition of the stupidity in the first post.

I never said Cena was carried, I said the INTERNET says he was carried by CM Punk. I thought it was a great match from both men and realize that it takes two to tango. If you'd learn reading comprehension skills, maybe you'd have gotten that far. Further more, I've never said this was about THAT match. I was simply saying that at some points in the wrestling world it's better to have matches where one guy does carry the other. That's all my first post was about, I used the internet's interpretation of Cena matches and even other matches [I used TNA as well, but nobody saw that] as an example to help further the point that being carried isn't a bad thing at all.

 

[Slyfox696]

I never said Cena was carried

Yes, you did.

And to be honest, I will say that sometimes the complaints are a legit gripe...

But...

Is it really that bad? Take for example, this past Monday once again. It's easy to see at times that Punk is proverbially walking Cena through the steps, and the match comes off looking so crisp and so clean that fans are just in love with the story behind it. In the end, being carried made Cena a much better worker because of it.

And that's not just for this one match. Think about what that says for guys like CM Punk. John Cena trusted Punk to help him through the match

How can you forget your own words, especially when they are in the first post of the thread?

I said the INTERNET says he was carried by CM Punk.

As did you.

If you'd learn reading comprehension skills, maybe you'd have gotten that far.

My reading comprehension skills are just fine. It's your inability to remember your own words we should be worried about.

Further more, I've never said this was about THAT match. I was simply saying that at some points in the wrestling world it's better to have matches where one guy does carry the other.

Yes, and you used the Cena vs. Punk match as one of the examples. Seriously, these are your own words, how can you forget them?

I used the internet's interpretation of Cena matches

No, you didn't. And if that was your intention, you are an absolutely terrible writer, incapable of expressing yourself with any degree of clarity.

The idea you presented was Punk carried Cena, but that's not always a bad thing. Your main idea isn't necessarily bad, but one of the examples you used to support it was incredibly stupid.

 

[One to Remember]

I don't think this is an issue of semantics. There is a huge difference between being directed in a match and being carried. Carrying is fundamentally negative because one athlete is being dragged alone and basically just providing a presence so the good wrestlers doesn't look like hes shadow boxing.. For the word to be used correctly the carried wrestler also needs to had been in the business long enough to have his bearing or in it so long they are completely rusted.

I don't even like Cena and I know hes not ever carried because of his output and strength. The same for Punk, so any match with them would feature a lead but not a carry..

 

[wrestlingfan]

I just want to point out that many posters in this thread have been spot on with their recognition of the stupidity in the first post. If anything, Cena was carrying Punk, not the other way around. It was Cena the fans were hot for (cheering or booing). To be clear, it wasn't a carry job by either man, in terms of ring work, but Cena definitely brought the majority of the heat to the match.

John Cena is easily the best wrestler in the United States today, and it's not even questionable at this point.

As far as what's bad about being carried? In a match, nothing really, though usually if one wrestler needs to be carried through a match, the match will not be much more than average. As a wrestler though, "being carried", which is used WAY more often in the IWC than ever actually happens, shows that one wrestler is clearly inferior in terms of understanding how to work a match.

For those ignorants who don't understand wrestling (I'm looking at the thread starter as I say this), please understand that I'm not talking about the guy who does the offense in the match. The offensive is only part of the match. I'm talking about the tactical moving about the ring. I'm talking about the building up, easing down, the overall build of interest in the match and then the final climax of the match. I'm talking about knowing how to tell the story in the ring, how to convey the psychology of the match. But most of all, I'm talking about how to make people care about you.

Great wrestlers like John Cena do those things flawlessly. Guys who need to be carried, have very limited understanding of those things, and rely on guys like Cena to help them work the match.

Best wrestler in the US? Even better than Daniel Bryan? I'm a Cena fan and feel he's a great in ring worker but his inconcistency can't allow me to put him as the best.

And to respond to the OP, sure workers can be carried but I honestly think the matches that truely great require the cooperation of both.

 

[Slyfox696]

Best wrestler in the US? Even better than Daniel Bryan?

It's not even close. John Cena has had more great matches with CM Punk than Daniel Bryan has had in his entire WWE run.

I'm a Cena fan and feel he's a great in ring worker but his inconcistency can't allow me to put him as the best.

What inconsistency? Who is more dependable to have a great match? Who consistently gets more out of his opponents than Cena?

 

[JGlass]

Best wrestler in the US? Even better than Daniel Bryan? I'm a Cena fan and feel he's a great in ring worker but his inconcistency can't allow me to put him as the best.

What are you, some kind of idiot? Daniel Bryan is great, but is realistically inferior to Cena in just about every way (except MAYBE comedy at this point, but even that's close). I know that we here on the internet like to invent ways to pretend that our internet darlings are better than the WWE tank-grown muscle heads, but what can Daniel Bryan do that Cena can't do better? Chain wrestle? Trade holds? Perform a large variety of moves? Cena did all of those during that Monday night battle with Punk, and that was only his second or third best match with the man.

And inconsistency? Who has more consistently put on great matches than Cena? Even when he's booked in terrible programs like Embrace the Hate or the conclusion of the Nexus angle, Cena manages to make it entertaining and pull out good matches to make the suffering of stupid WWE booking worth something. He hasn't had a "bad" match in years. Out of the dozen or so guys that can be considered major players in the WWE these days, nobody is more consistent than John Cena.

 

[wrestlingfan]

What are you, some kind of idiot? Daniel Bryan is great, but is realistically inferior to Cena in just about every way (except MAYBE comedy at this point, but even that's close). I know that we here on the internet like to invent ways to pretend that our internet darlings are better than the WWE tank-grown muscle heads, but what can Daniel Bryan do that Cena can't do better? Chain wrestle? Trade holds? Perform a large variety of moves? Cena did all of those during that Monday night battle with Punk, and that was only his second or third best match with the man.

And inconsistency? Who has more consistently put on great matches than Cena? Even when he's booked in terrible programs like Embrace the Hate or the conclusion of the Nexus angle, Cena manages to make it entertaining and pull out good matches to make the suffering of stupid WWE booking worth something. He hasn't had a "bad" match in years. Out of the dozen or so guys that can be considered major players in the WWE these days, nobody is more consistent than John Cena.

What about Bryan pre WWE?

And Cena has had a string of bad matches in 2011, ones that are the typical Supercena come back.

 

[Bernkastel]

What about Bryan pre WWE?

And Cena has had a string of bad matches in 2011, ones that are the typical Supercena come back.

Why should anyone give a shit about what a wrestler did before switching companies? It's not like ROH and WWE have a trade agreement where their talents appear in each others promotions. If that were the case ROH wouldn't be in the gutter where it has been since Bryan and co left years ago.

And LOL @ this supercena nonsense you're spewing. Every face in the company that has ever been a major player has had a "super form." Hogan, Bret, Shawn, Sheamus, Rock, Jericho, Foley, all of them. The only exceptions were Austin, Taker, and Kane who were "super" at all times as faces.

 

[wrestlingfan]

Why should anyone give a shit about what a wrestler did before switching companies? It's not like ROH and WWE have a trade agreement where their talents appear in each others promotions. If that were the case ROH wouldn't be in the gutter where it has been since Bryan and co left years ago.

And LOL @ this supercena nonsense you're spewing. Every face in the company that has ever been a major player has had a "super form." Hogan, Bret, Shawn, Sheamus, Rock, Jericho, Foley, all of them. The only exceptions were Austin, Taker, and Kane who were "super" at all times as faces.

Still just saying if you're going to make a claim about Cena being best in ring worker in the US (Best mic worker I can agree with), you have to include other people's body of work, Pre-WWE included.

That doesn't change the fact the matches were bad.

 

[Bernkastel]

Still just saying if you're going to make a claim about Cena being best in ring worker in the US (Best mic worker I can agree with), you have to include other people's body of work, Pre-WWE included.

That doesn't change the fact the matches were bad.

The claim was the Cena was the best in ring worker in the WWE. No one said anything about him being the best outside of that - though he likely is - and because of that we're sticking to WWE criteria only.

Some of his matches in 2011, like versus Miz, Truth, or Delberto, weren't exactly stellar, but they were far from bad. What exactly made those matches awful?

 

[JGlass]

What about Bryan pre WWE?

Um, ESPECIALLY at that point. Daniel Bryan has always been a pretty great wrestler, but there's a reason the indy style match is the indy style... because it's not that interesting.

And Cena has had a string of bad matches in 2011, ones that are the typical Supercena come back.

Here's John Cena's 2011 PPV schedule.

Royal Rumble- He was in the Rumble match.
Elimination Chamber- It was an EC match, so of course it was good.
WrestleMania 27- A very good match with The Miz that will forever be overshadowed by The Rock's involvement
Extreme Rules- Very good match with Miz and Morrison on a very good show.
Over the Limit- I've never seen this PPV, but I heard it was good, if not overshadowed by Orton/Christian.
Capitol Punishment- Not exactly great, but certainly not bad either.
Money in the Bank- One of the best matches in the history of professional wrestling.
Summer Slam- Another great match between Punk and Cena.
Night of Champions- Good match with Del Rio.
Hell in a Cell- Very good match with Punk and Del Rio in the Cell.
Vengeance- Another very good match with Del Rio, this one being a Last Man Standing match.
Survivor Series- This match was kind of lame, but that wasn't Cena's fault, it was just poorly booked. It was basically the WWE trying to make Rock look like a million dollars in the ring without making him do more than 5 minutes of actual work.
TLC- Not on the show.

Not once did he have a bad match. Not a single time. Thanks for playing, though.