What To Do With Brandon Inge?

[Monkey_Mania]

With the recent signing of Prince Fielder to first base, and Leyland announcing the shift of Miguel Cabrera back to third it has to beg the question. Where does Brandon Inge fit in? Sure, he could go behind the plate, but when you the better Gerald Laird and the incredible Victor Martinez as catchers it doesn't leave him with that option either. Could he be the DH? Hell no, I believe that honor goes right to Delmon Young.

The guy hasn't had the best couple of seasons these last few years, but he's been so loyal to the Tigers and I believe he wanted to be a Tiger for life. It's kind of got to make you feel for him a little bit, and he has to feel a little dejected.

So I leave you with the following questions.

What do the Tigers do with Inge?

Should they release him or use him as trade material?

How would you feel if you were in Inges shoes right now.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

He'll probably split time with Cabrera at third. With Victor Martinez out, I can't see Miguel playing 150 games at third. Luckily the AL has the DH. They'll probably give cabrera and fielder "rest" days by having them trade DH duties. Third might not seem like a position that gets you injured, because you don't dive into the stands usually or things like that. however, it requires fast reflexes, the sudden jerk can tear ligaments. I can see Cabrera blowing out a knee or ankle jerking to the left or right after a ball. They'll likely want to limit his time there, regardless of what old man Leyland says.

 

[Davi323]

What do the Tigers do with Inge? Should they release him or use him as trade material?

I combined the first two, as they are really just two different ways to ask the same question...

They should release him outright. With his rapid decline in performance over the past few years, I doubt he is worth much, if anything on the trade market. As soon as Fielder was signed and they decided to move Cabrera over to 3rd, Inge's fate was more or less sealed. Inge is completely expendable. The Tigers have other players who can play 3rd on days Cabrera is DH'ing who are better hitters than Inge is.

Brandon Inge already used up whatever favors the baseball gods owed him by the Tigers bringing him back up from the minors last year. He has gotten by based on nothing but nostalgia. Some Tigers fans like him because not only was he a West Michigan Whitecap and they got to see him as a developing young player, but he was the last holdover from that dreadful 2003 team, as someone who "persevered". As such, it made him a sympathetic player to a lot of Tigers fans. But, nostalgia doesn't get you a good batting average, hitting the damn baseball does, and Inge can't do that.

How would you feel if you were in Inges shoes right now.

I would probably be a little sad, knowing that my MLB career could end with a phone call any day now.

 

[Megatron]

What do the Tigers do with Inge? Should they release him or use him as trade material?


I wouldn't be surprised if they kept him as a defensive role player/platoon option. His defense is tailing off, but he's gonna be a better fielder at 3rd then Cabrera until he's 50 (even then it'd be a toss up). While I don't think Leyland would pull his star bat for defensive purposes (unless a scenario came where Cabrera just came to bat in the bottom of the inning and they're trying to protect a 1 run lead in the top of the 9th) Inge could get some solid playing time.

While I appreciate Inge still thinking he can get starters playing time, the fact is he's going to have to accept his role as a role player and take what Leyland gives him. At 34, he's never going to get back to his best years in 04-06 when he was a legitimate upper-value 3B. He struggled against righties, but was at least servicable against lefties. You give him 40-50 starts (during days where you either have Cabrera or Fielder DH or take off completely) mainly against lefties, then maybe 10-15 more as defensive replacement late in the game. Have him do the little things at the plate (bunt, take more pitches, try to move runners over) for 200-250 PA and I think he'd be useful for the team. If he really thinks he can still start and won't accept his role as a defensive fill in/spot player, let him go (he's in his final year) and put Kelly/Worth there. Your production won't be much different. He did well in his limited duty in the postseason though, and is one of a handful of guys (along with Verlander, Santiago, and I believe that's it) that was actually on their World Series team in 06. That could be useful.

How would you feel if you were in Inges shoes right now.

Honestly, I'd be happy I've had a long and relatively successful career. He's been on the same team for over a decade and even made an all-star game (something that many better players can't say). While he's not the same player he once was, that's what happens when father-time gets to you. It'd be a tough pill to swallow at first that you're no longer 'the' guy that can start, you can still be a useful player on the team.

 

[Big Sexy]

There's no way Inge can be used as trade material because he doesn't have any trade value. Personally I'd like to see him as a backup utility player because he still has value as a defender and he's also been with the organization forever. However, if he did get released it wouldn't affect the team all that much from a talent stand point.

In terms of how he should feel, I'm sure he is upset that he is being phased out and there really isn't anything he can do but any player would feel that way. He has had a long career and should be proud of all he has accomplished.

 

[Davi323]

Apparently Inge went to Dave Dombrowski and told him he wants to play 2nd base now...even though he has never, ever played 2nd base before, AND that Detroit already has two guys who were already penciled in to split time there, Ramon Santiago and Ryan Raburn. Inge is bound and determined to find a place on the team, despite his .197 batting average last year. Part of me admires the tenacity, but part of me also thinks it absolutely reeks of desperation from a guy who doesn't know when to say when.

 

[Big Sexy]

Even though Inge has never played second (which is surprising because he has played every other position), it is the easiest position in the infield so I'm sure he won't have any problems picking it up. He actually has a chance to legitimately compete for the spot if he can hit well in spring training. His competition is Ryan Raburn, Ramon Santiago, and Danny Worth so no one is a clear cut favorite.

 

[Megatron]

Part of me admires the tenacity, but part of me also thinks it absolutely reeks of desperation from a guy who doesn't know when to say when.

That's the same feeling I'm having. I appreciate that he still is working hard and is looking to be a starter (since I'd likely do the same if I was in his shoes); however, at 34 (and 35 in May) he's not gonna be the same player he was even a few years ago. If he has the ability to fill in at 2nd that'd be nice, but I'd rather see guys that have had some prior experience (Santiago, Raburn, Worth) be thought as better options. Like I said earlier, he should hope to be a part timer that will get a majority of his time against lefties and as a defensive replacement. 150-200 PA's won't bother me one bit, since he did a good enough job against lefties. But for him to be a 450-500 PA player anymore is asking for people to complain.

Even though Inge has never played second (which is surprising because he has played every other position), it is the easiest position in the infield so I'm sure he won't have any problems picking it up. He actually has a chance to legitimately compete for the spot if he can hit well in spring training. His competition is Ryan Raburn, Ramon Santiago, and Danny Worth so no one is a clear cut favorite.

First base is the easiest by far, and with Fielder there on most days it'd be nice to have someone with decent range and consistency (aka Santiago) to help shore up that hole.

My ideal situation is that they platoon between Raburn and Santiago about equally. I know Raburn gets a lot of shit for being a poor hitter in the first 2-3 months, but when he gets his groove he can be a very difficult bottom of the order bat (see what he did from July-on. While not great, I'll take that out of our second basemen). Santiago will be more consistent and does the little things better (bunt, steal, move runners over, etc.) and plays the best D. I don't think Inge has much of a calling at 2nd and should try to focus his time on backing up Cabby at 3rd and helping him get ready to play the position.

 

[Big Sexy]

First base is the easiest by far, and with Fielder there on most days it'd be nice to have someone with decent range and consistency (aka Santiago) to help shore up that hole.

First base may be the position where the most unathletic guys can play but it is still a slightly harder position to field then second base is.

My ideal situation is that they platoon between Raburn and Santiago about equally. I know Raburn gets a lot of shit for being a poor hitter in the first 2-3 months, but when he gets his groove he can be a very difficult bottom of the order bat (see what he did from July-on. While not great, I'll take that out of our second basemen). Santiago will be more consistent and does the little things better (bunt, steal, move runners over, etc.) and plays the best D. I don't think Inge has much of a calling at 2nd and should try to focus his time on backing up Cabby at 3rd and helping him get ready to play the position.

This I agree with. I would much rather have Inge as a utility guy mostly sticking to the back up third base spot. I was just pointing out that if he did want to play more then second base would be his best opportunity because the competition there isn't anything to right home about.

 

[Megatron]

First base may be the position where the most unathletic guys can play but it is still a slightly harder position to field then second base is.

no it's not. While there certainly are some good fielding 1b, there's guys like Cabrera, Fielder, and Ryan Howard that are put there because they can give an average (at best) effort and either have to play the field or don't want to be just DH. Dan Uggla's really the only poor fielding 2B.

As long as you're capable of catching most balls thrown at you and scooping up routine plays within a 5 foot radius, you can play 1b. Why do you think guys like V-Mart, Carlos Santana, and Joe Mauer have all received time at first base and never at 2nd? Because it's an easier spot to pick up and the 2B will cover a majority of the balls that are between 1st and 2nd.

This I agree with. I would much rather have Inge as a utility guy mostly sticking to the back up third base spot. I was just pointing out that if he did want to play more then second base would be his best opportunity because the competition there isn't anything to right home about.

While it's not great competition, he's the 3rd wheel in this race. I'm not counting him out, but their best chances are a platoon with Santiago/Raburn.

 

[Harthan]

Best thing for Inge this year is to be a utility infielder on the bench to take some load of the guys who will be starting at third and second...and he can technically catch and play the outfield, too. I think Inge is getting a little too much flack for a bad season last year. The guy was never great but up until last year he posted consistent >1 WAR and decent defensive numbers. He's certainly not the most desirable infielder around even at his best, but if he's all you have, or if you're in a position to play him off the bench, he's fine. I see him as a kind of super-utility guy in 2012, which will be fine for the Tigers, who will definitely need someone to take games at third because it's fairly unlikely Cabrera can do that everyday. And you never know, maybe he'll hit his stride at second base. Stranger things have happened.

 

[Big Sexy]

no it's not. While there certainly are some good fielding 1b, there's guys like Cabrera, Fielder, and Ryan Howard that are put there because they can give an average (at best) effort and either have to play the field or don't want to be just DH. Dan Uggla's really the only poor fielding 2B.

The big guys all play first because it is really the only position they can play from an athletic stand point but most of those guys aren't very good. Prince Fielder has improved but is still towards the bottom of the league in terms of defensive first basemen. Howard and Cabrera are middle of the pack at best and that's after they have both greatly improved since they started at the position. Just because big guys can play the position doesn't mean they are very good at it.

I actually work with a guy who played baseball at a collegiate level and he made the comment to me when the story about Inge came out that he should have no trouble transitioning to the easiest position in the infield. My baseball playing experience isn't the most extensive but I always found it easier playing second than first as well.

 

[Megatron]

The big guys all play first because it is really the only position they can play from an athletic stand point but most of those guys aren't very good. Prince Fielder has improved but is still towards the bottom of the league in terms of defensive first basemen. Howard and Cabrera are middle of the pack at best and that's after they have both greatly improved since they started at the position. Just because big guys can play the position doesn't mean they are very good at it.

It does mean they're capable of at least putting in a solid effort, though, and that says more then enough to me. You won't ever see Cabrera, Pujols, Howard, Gonzalez, etc. play 2nd because it's more work and strain on their bodies. Guys like Cano, Pedroia, and Zobrist could play just as well at first because there's not as much going on.

I actually work with a guy who played baseball at a collegiate level and he made the comment to me when the story about Inge came out that he should have no trouble transitioning to the easiest position in the infield. My baseball playing experience isn't the most extensive but I always found it easier playing second than first as well.

That's cool, but 2nd base has more going on in it then first does. You have to be involved in more double plays, you field more balls, you have to make more throws. First base it's mostly cover for throws, field the ones near your 5 foot radius, and let the 2nd basemen take the 50/50 plays. For every person like you and your coworker who think first is harder then 2nd there's at least twice as many people that think 2nd is tougher. It takes more range, more quickness, more athletic ability to play 2nd. They get more and generally the poorer defensive players play at 1st in the infield.

 

[Big Sexy]

It does mean they're capable of at least putting in a solid effort, though,, and that says more then enough to me. You won't ever see Cabrera, Pujols, Howard, Gonzalez, etc. play 2nd because it's more work and strain on their bodies.

That's an awful argument. Just because something takes more athletic ability that doesn't make it a tougher position. You have to be more athletic to be a free safety then you do to be a linebacker or lineman in football but while free safety is the easiest position on defense, the others take more skill and are more important. You'll never see Stephen Tulloch play in the secondary but he has a tougher position to play then Louis Delmas.

Guys like Fielder don't cover a lot of ground because they suck defensively but if you watch some of the top first basemen they do a lot more then you are letting on. I'm not saying that first is some extremely difficult position but it is slightly harder then second.

 

[Megatron]

That's an awful argument. Just because something takes more athletic ability that doesn't make it a tougher position. You have to be more athletic to be a free safety then you do to be a linebacker or lineman in football but while free safety is the easiest position on defense, the others take more skill and are more important. You'll never see Stephen Tulloch play in the secondary but he has a tougher position to play then Louis Delmas.

I never said since 2B are more athletic it's tougher. I said it's tougher because they get more balls, have to be involved in turning more DPs, take more off the workload on the left side, etc. While having less in shape guys like Cabrera, Fielder, and Howard do a average or slightly below average job helps my point, the amount of workload and what they do is why it's tougher.

LB takes more of an effort because they're closer/more involved to the action. Same with 2nd base.

Guys like Fielder don't cover a lot of ground because they suck defensively but if you watch some of the top first basemen they do a lot more then you are letting on. I'm not saying that first is some extremely difficult position but it is slightly harder then second.

I guess there's no getting to you. We'll just have to agree to disagree, although people more involved and pay more attention to you in the game will agree with me before they agree with you and your coworker.

 

[Big Sexy]

I never said since 2B are more athletic it's tougher. I said it's tougher because they get more balls, have to be involved in turning more DPs, take more off the workload on the left side, etc. While having less in shape guys like Cabrera, Fielder, and Howard do a average or slightly below average job helps my point, the amount of workload and what they do is why it's tougher.

First and second are two completely different positions that require different types of players. There is a reason that of all the consistent starting first basemen last year only two were under 6'2 and one of those guys was 6'1. You have to be a bigger guy so you can get the high throws, pick low throws, throws outside. People look at first basemen and just assume they stand on the bag and catch perfect throws from the other infielders. The skill it takes to pick balls and catch all of the off target throws is an underrated one. There's also the fact that guys like Fielder and Cabrera are not the norm. They are both fairly awful defenders (especially Fielder) and guys like Pujols, Konerko, ect.. do more then you are letting on.

I guess there's no getting to you. We'll just have to agree to disagree, although people more involved and pay more attention to you in the game will agree with me before they agree with you and your coworker.

Lol I pay plenty of attention and there are more people then you think who will say first is a slightly tougher position then second. Especially those who have played both positions.

 

[Megatron]

First and second are two completely different positions that require different types of players. There is a reason that of all the consistent starting first basemen last year only two were under 6'2 and one of those guys was 6'1. You have to be a bigger guy so you can get the high throws, pick low throws, throws outside. People look at first basemen and just assume they stand on the bag and catch perfect throws from the other infielders. The skill it takes to pick balls and catch all of the off target throws is an underrated one. There's also the fact that guys like Fielder and Cabrera are not the norm. They are both fairly awful defenders (especially Fielder) and guys like Pujols, Konerko, ect.. do more then you are letting on.

No shit those guys do more then just catch perfect balls, but they don't make 1/4 as many throws as 2B or have nearly as much range to cover (despite having a pitcher that can help cover the base) or have as much responsibility as a 2nd basemen. They don't get cutoffs from the OF unless the OF either misses the 2B or its a direct throw from the RF. They don't take or backup stolen base attempts. They hold runners on, but so do most 2B (although they have lower chances). 2B are the one's getting threatened to get cleated when turning a double play, and are the ones that normally charge in on bunts.

Sure, there's exceptions to every rule, but ask any baseball mind, they'd say 2B is where the better defender should be on the right side, not first base.

Lol I pay plenty of attention and there are more people then you think who will say first is a slightly tougher position then second. Especially those who have played both positions.

Clearly not enough. And I'm not taking your coworkers as a legit source. Sorry.

 

[Big Sexy]

Sure, there's exceptions to every rule, but ask any baseball mind, they'd say 2B is where the better defender should be on the right side, not first base.

Second base may be where the better defender should be but that doesn't make it an easier position to play. At the end of the day second basemen may have more responsibilities but they aren't as difficult as you are making them out to be and they don't see nearly the same amount of action because most hitters are right handed and hit to the other side.

Clearly not enough. And I'm not taking your coworkers as a legit source. Sorry.

Lol who the fuck said I was using that as a legit source. I was just stating why I brought it up in the first place. I'm not exactly seeing any sources from you either.

 

[Megatron]

Second base may be where the better defender should be but that doesn't make it an easier position to play.

Thank you for agreeing with me.

At the end of the day second basemen may have more responsibilities but they aren't as difficult as you are making them out to be and they don't see nearly the same amount of action because most hitters are right handed and hit to the other side.

They play on the same side of the field, and yes many of those are difficult. You think scooping a ball in the dirt is tougher then turning two with a runner trying to take you out, or that catching a ball is easier then fielding a bunt and throwing him out before he beats it? Really?

Lol who the fuck said I was using that as a legit source. I was just stating why I brought it up in the first place. I'm not exactly seeing any sources from you either.

Bill James, thought as one of the first advanced mind of baseball (really introduced sabermetrics to the game) has this little tool called the defensive spectrum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_spectrum

To save you the time, it says 1st base is the easiest position to fill defensively and 2nd is the 3rd toughest of regular players after catcher and SS.

 

[Big Sexy]

Bill James for the most part is merely a statistician. Using math and science to try and prove his points. The fact that he says second is a harder position to play then third and center field is bullshit if you ask me. I'll take experience and the naked eye over statisticians any day.

 

[Megatron]

Bill James for the most part is merely a statistician. Using math and science to try and prove his points. The fact that he says second is a harder position to play then third and center field is bullshit if you ask me. I'll take experience and the naked eye over statisticians any day.

His theories must make some sense if the A's used it to make the playoffs in the early last decade and the Red Sox used him as an advisor (and he still is) when they won their last 2 World Series. Teams are starting to gravitate to his ideas that he brought out in the 80s (that getting on base is more important then having a .290 BA, wins aren't a real determinant of a good pitcher, etc.).

You can at least debate 3rd and CF being above 2nd (although I'd say CF > 2nd > 3rd), but first shouldn't even be in the discussion, which is all that matters.

And the eye test would show the same thing in terms of which is tougher defensively between 1st and 2nd. 2nd has more responsibilities and requires more defensively then first does.

EDIT: And I'm still waiting on where anyone credible has said 1st is tougher defensively then 2nd (i.e. someone with major league experience).

 

[Big Sexy]

It's not like a "which position is toughest" debate comes up often in Major League circles. All you have provided is a guy who bases everything off math and scientific formulas. That may be good for some things but it hardly takes everything into affect. I mean just look at the QBR for football. According to that Tim Tebow is the 32nd best qb in the NFL. As much as I dislike Tebow, not even I would say he had a worse season then guys like Christian Ponder, T Jax, John Skelton, Rex Grossman, etc.. Formulas like that can gauge somethings but it is hardly the end all be all. At the end of the day Bill James is just a very intelligent baseball fan with no playing experience.

 

[Megatron]

It's not like a "which position is toughest" debate comes up often in Major League circles. All you have provided is a guy who bases everything off math and scientific formulas. That may be good for some things but it hardly takes everything into affect.

Statistics often tell the whole story more then the naked eye does. Statistics give it a black and eye view that doesn't interpret much to debate.

I mean just look at the QBR for football. According to that Tim Tebow is the 32nd best qb in the NFL. As much as I dislike Tebow, not even I would say he had a worse season then guys like Christian Ponder, T Jax, John Skelton, Rex Grossman, etc.. Formulas like that can gauge somethings but it is hardly the end all be all.

I fail to see how this is relevant to whether 1st or 2nd base is a tougher defensive position, but alright chief.

At the end of the day Bill James is just a very intelligent baseball fan with no playing experience.

No playing experience is an awful point. Dave Dombrowski never played a minor league game and he's built 2 pennant champions. Theo Epstein never played a collegiate game and has 2 titles, Brian Cashman played lower college ball and that's it. James was an important piece to the two Red Sox title teams by bringing them new and out of the box ideas. I'll certainly value his opinions over yours when he's been involved in the business (and his ideas have been used by others).

All that you've said has taken off topic from the original point that nobody with baseball knowledge agrees with your point that 2nd is an easier defensive position than first. You can swallow your pride and admit your wrong so you stop looking so foolish.

 

[Big Sexy]

Statistics often tell the whole story more then the naked eye does. Statistics give it a black and eye view that doesn't interpret much to debate.

Statistics also often fail to tell the whole story.

I fail to see how this is relevant to whether 1st or 2nd base is a tougher defensive position, but alright chief.

Your "relevant source" is a statistician that uses formulas to come up with his views. I gave an example of a formula created by statisticians that fails to tell the whole story. 100% relevant.

No playing experience is an awful point. Dave Dombrowski never played a minor league game and he's built 2 pennant champions. Theo Epstein never played a collegiate game and has 2 titles, Brian Cashman played lower college ball and that's it. James was an important piece to the two Red Sox title teams by bringing them new and out of the box ideas. I'll certainly value his opinions over yours when he's been involved in the business (and his ideas have been used by others).

Talk about irrelevancy. What exactly does building a successful franchise have to do with how tough a particular position is to play? Someone with playing experience would be a credible source. Someone without it can evaluate talent and the direction of a team but they can't say how hard particular positions are to play.

All that you've said has taken off topic from the original point that nobody with baseball knowledge agrees with your point that 2nd is an easier defensive position than first. You can swallow your pride and admit your wrong so you stop looking so foolish.

Why would I admit something that is false? Unless you can find me a group of people who have played both positions saying that second is harder then this is 100% debatable.

 

[Megatron]

Your "relevant source" is a statistician that uses formulas to come up with his views. I gave an example of a formula created by statisticians that fails to tell the whole story. 100% relevant.

How many times do I have to repeat myself? James's ideas (not just stats, but theories such as teams should look at OBP not average, defensive spectrum, etc.) have been used by teams and he was hired by the Red Sox and was a vital front office piece in their 2 world title teams. That source is very much reliable since he's been watching/covering/been involved with the game as long as he has. Certainly more then your invisible source I keep seeing.

Why would I admit something that is false? Unless you can find me a group of people who have played both positions saying that second is harder then this is 100% debatable.

It's common fucking knowledge that 2nd is more difficult then first. Why do you think the Tigers moved Cabrera from 3rd to 1st in 08 instead of 2nd? Because he's a terrible defender and 1st is easy to pick up. You are the only person I've seen that's actually thought that first is tougher, probably due to your shit baseball knowledge. Please, stop. Ask 10 people that know how baseball works, and at least 9 will say first is easier because guys like Howard, Cabrera, Prince and Cecil Fielder, Mo Vaughn, were able to handle the position. You picked the wrong dog in this fight, it's okay to admit you aren't right. I know you're too stubborn and dumb to do that, though, so continue to say first is tougher even though you've given one reason (scooping balls in dirt) that backs up your claim, and its a shit one at that.