What is ROH missing?

[Oracular Spectacular]

I am a huge ROH fan, I have been a tape trader for years, I live outside of Chicago so I have been to shows and I have watched the HDNet show since Day 1. I know there aren't many people on these forums that regularly watch ROH but hopefully we can get some good opinions.

Back in the 90's the pecking order was clear.
1.WWF
2.WCW
3.ECW

ECW was a distant third but most wrestling fans(even in the early stages of the IWC) knew about it. Many had watched it on public broadcat television late at night or had seen the WWE angle in the mid 90's that involved it. It seemed as though everyone new ECW and at least a few wrestlers from ECW.

Fast forward to 2002, WCW is gone, ECW is gone both have been absorbed into the WWF/E. Now a new company emerges NWA-TNA. If anyone who was a wrestling fan and not part of the IWC most likely discovered TNA by flipping through the PPVs(most likely looking for porn...) and saw NWA-TNA, It was only 10$ and at the time I think some casual wrestling fans were missing two different shows. Most people(including me) fell in love with TNA(and some like myself think it blows ass now) Not only did you get to see High Flyers but you also got to see a lot of "Where are they now wrestlers" Buff Bagwell, K-Kwik(K-Krush, Ron Killings), Ken Shamrock, Jerry Lynn, Brian Christopher, Psichosis, etc.

But what stole the shows(and anyone who truly watched since day 1 will agree) was guys like Aj Styles, Sonni Siaki, Jimmy Yang, Apollo, Low-Ki ect. These "Indy Guys" were damn good and it was apparent that they were the stars of these shows, and TNA would show that by having X Division title matches as the main events. As they continued there angles got better in the next few months and for a short period of time TNA had a near perfect blending of compelling stories and action packed wrestling(which they don't have either now....sorry TNA marks, I am not 15 anymore, Jeff Hardy and RVD aren't cool anymore)

In the meantime ROH was making itself a name throughout the Indy scene. Guys like Christopher Daniels, Bryan Danielson and Samoa Joe were seen in magazines and were becoming the darlings of the IWC. But ROH isnt known by many of the casual fans from the 90's. Sure the name may seem recognizable, but if you ask a lot of regular fans(in the years between 2004-2008) they would have no idea what ROH was.

Now enter today. ROH took its sweet time getting a TV deal(Me thinks that Jim Cornette entering the fray may have something to do with that) and before that it was always Good wrestling with not a whole lot of story. Now it still had some compelling angles, The CM Punk vs Raven feud, the Steve Corino vs Teddy Hart feud, ROH vs CZW, Danielson turning heel. ect. But many feuds didnt need angles, instead it was match based and people who watched these matches were watching because they enjoyed the art of wrestling.

Now with the HDnet show things have changed a bit in ROH, they seems to not only be implementing more angles but also still showing off long matches. In an hour long show they spend about 50 minutes on matches and 10 on story(which some of that story is just showing what happened last week) some shows will have a match go for 30+ min, which is pretty nuts for a TV match. They have also seemed to trim the roster to a point where they don't have as many workers that who up for a match then leave. Meaning some wrestlers have vanished and others have seen there TV time flourish. Also the company is having a few ongoing huge feuds that seem to sometimes get a whole show dedicated to, You have the Briscoes vs Kings of Wrestling, Steen vs Generico and Daniels vs Strong.

TNA also brought a lot of people in the there X Division, soothing that the WWE lacked. ROH has there Tag division which gets center stage a lot of the time, which is something the WWE lacks. So the promotion is going out of its way to give people the alternative.

So we have established that ROH is a wrestling based promotion, even with the stories you still see more wrestling than stories. It uses well known Indipendant wrestlers(Chris Hero, Colt Cabana, The Brisco Brothers, Roderick Strong, Christopher Daniels) and a few wrestlers that have been seen on WWE or TNA(Steve Corino, Benjamin and Haas, Jerry Lynn, Colt Cabana(Scotty Goldman), Roderick Strong.

So whats it missing? TNA made its rise slowly with slowly bringing bigger names in and slowly building its Indy stars(whom most already had "Indy Cred") first TNA brought in underappreciated WWE talent(Raven) then they just brought in the washouts of the big show(Jeff "Meth Head" Hardy, RVD aka the guy who fills the demographic of stoned wrestling fans that like to see 40 year old men do the splits and Ken "I will injure myself or injure you" Anderkennedy...then of course there is Hogan but we don't need to go into that one)

ROH has always welcomed underappreciated talent with open arms, Raven, Jerry Lynn, and Benjamin and Haas being great examples of that, but they have never fallen into picking up a big name that can't wrestle. Sure somone like Carlito would work, but ROH learned its lesson with wrestlers with bad attitudes and took care of it(see. Teddy Hart)

So what is it? They can clearly build talent. Look at Danielson's WWE debut, The crowd new who he was!

So here is a few ways ROH could continue to get bigger.

1 Some real contracts
TNA learned its lesson and started signing people to more exclusive contracts(See. TNA/ROH breakup) ROH needs to start doing this, as of right now they are becoming the feeder fed, they are doing a better job at that (Signing KOW and Steen to longer contracts) but its just a matter of time before they are WWE bound.

2.Showing off the Stars
If your going to give these guys contracts then every week they should be on television. Daniels, Homicide, Strong, KOW, Steen, Eddie Edwards, these guys should be on television every week, even if they aren't wrestling. Promos are a good way to give your wrestler the day off and still get him over. Of course a longer TV how would help this, but really don't see that happening anytime soon. Now I know ROH touts there live shows and PPVs over the HDNet show, but TV is where your going to get your casual fans that are flipping through channels and see something new. For example last weeks ROH had a very slow under card. Rhett Titus faced Eddie Edwards and the match took some time to really get exciting(and had a terrible ending) but instead of picking up the pace that had a women's match next. The main event was good (Generico and Cobana vs Corino and Steen) but the undercard was so bad I couldnt see a casual fan sitting through it.

3 Castaways
A few WWE castaways is a double edged sword. On one side you have some talent with exposure and on the other you gain the stigma of just taking castaways. The beuty of castaways is that they don't need to stick around all the time. Eddie Guerrero, Jeff Hardy and Matt Hardy(When the later two were good) all have showed up and wrestled matches for ROH, it sort of gives a nice "dream match" scenario pitting a talent from a big show against an underappreciated talent from the smaller promotion.

He may be washed up but Matt Hardy showing up to challenge for the belt, just to have Roderick Strong go over would look great. It would get the champ over(and trust me...he needs it) and it would give the company exposure. Hurricane Helms, Paul Burchill, Jimmy Yang, all of these guys could make short term appearances and get talent over as well as get exposure.


Well for the few other ROH fans out there, what do you think is missing from ROH to make them a liegitimate contender for at lead that number 2 spot....I didn't even delve into the obvious reasons(Better channel, better production, some better fucking lighting)

 

[Calderownz]

Personally, I'd think it was a few things.

1. Not Enough Exposure. No major television deal, and not enough financial backing. You can't draw more fans, if the same fans keep watching and no one new comes along.

2. A Niche Audience. They have a great audience, but it's small. That audience, however, isn't likely to grow due to the fact that the size of the audience that only wants that type of wrestling in some ways, is at maximum capacity. Most wrestling fans want a mixture of wrestling and entertainment, not just one or the other. ROH, in many ways, only offers one.

 

[PsychoBlack]

First I would like to know why people think it's cool to hate TNA?

The thing that i think they need is a TV deal on a channel that everyone can see. This would help a lot because casual fans flipping through the channels will say "oh nothing else is on let me watch this." These fans may like the in ring work without all of the drama that WWE and TNA provide making this the show they watch more often. exposure is everything

 

[Oracular Spectacular]

First I would like to know why people think it's cool to hate TNA?

If your referring to my negative TNA comments I made very valid point on all of them, I am not simply hating TNA "Cause its the cool thing to do"

2. A Niche Audience. They have a great audience, but it's small. That audience, however, isn't likely to grow due to the fact that the size of the audience that only wants that type of wrestling in some ways, is at maximum capacity. Most wrestling fans want a mixture of wrestling and entertainment, not just one or the other. ROH, in many ways, only offers one.

That's a really good point. ROH have a fantastic audioence and a fantastic live crowd, but they are all very smarky elitist in terms. I was at a show once where I heard somone complain for 15 minutes about how Christopher Daniels shouldnt have cut a promo(when he is a fantactic promo man)

I think the reason for this is where there shows are located. They are going to the niche audience because they go to cities with a lot of smark exposure. Which would explain why TNA got over in the early days being in Nashville which is a more "Sports-Entertainment" town

 

[Leafy]

Ring of Honor is still doing great sticking to that formula of storylines playing out in the ring and it is separating them from the crowd. TNA might call themselves the alternative but ROH is really the alternative.

But to really become that upcoming alternative they need a better TV deal. I don't know anybody that gets HDnet and if someone is going to order the online PPVs they already know about Ring of Honor. They need that global television deal that will bring in fans. They might need to start at 11 o'clock on FX or something but I guarantee that more people will tune in to see that and it will grow.

Also the contract deals as you pointed out is necessary. Instead of being those "Indy" wrestlers, they become ROH wrestlers. Ring of Honor could be the only place you will see Strong, or the Kings. The exclusiveness rises them above the other Independent promotions and solidifies that number 3 spot.

But we've seen what the jump from Indy to global can do to a company. ECW got stuck in that void and it sunk them. The income of an Indy company with the expenses of a global. Ring of Honor needs to decide when they are going to jump, or even if they will.

 

[Paul_J_L]

I agree with Cald. The problems with ROH is that it's considered a niche product, and if you've seen Raven's ROH shoot interviews, he explains it perfectly, "Play to your crowd".

Philly has ALWAYS been a niche town as it deals with its wrestling. They tend to be the more vocal and they tend to be the most "critical". It's their nature.

But, in order to transcend from the niche maket to the casual one, it would be a HUGE risk for ROH. Think about it, if ROH decided that they want to progress in a wrestling market that is more veered towards Entertainment (the US market), then you risk the HUGE possibility of bastardizing your "hardcore" fans, that's not good as those are the 500-800 fans that will go to the shows regardless.

If ROH was in Japan, they would probably challange NJPW, but they're not, the US is an entertainement first nation, if you aren't entertaining the crowd, then you are not going to get any serious play.

Now, if they decided to gradually increase the ratio of storylines and matches, from 90/10 to about 60/40, there MIGHT be a shot. But again, if that would require a lot of work by the writting/booking committee, and again, it would be a HUGE risk by ROH as they might piss their base fan-base off.

Contracts, not likely. I'll shoot that one down right now. With the costs of running a show, providing equipment, and who could forget the fact that economy is really in the "tank" right now, so the likelyhood of ROH locking up more than a select few is really out of the question.

Also, you have to also take the talent's motives into effect as well. Sure, they MIGHT like to get locked into a written deal with ROH, but ROH doesn't have the National exposure that TNA has, nor do they have the Global exposure that WWE has. They are a Reigional, at best, promotion, and an ultra-talented Independent worker could make a KILLING traveling coast-to-coast, and overseas, instead of locking himself up into a place where he wouldn't get that much recognition for their work.

Plus, ROH and PWG are pretty much neck-and-neck for the 3rd spot, but this biz is about $$$, so why not go to someplace that you could get PAID more for your work then someplace that you get paid less for the same work?

 

[ryanwwe]

The only two things i can think of is lack of a big time tv deal and lack of a big name star. Many will argue they dont need a big name because they have some of the best athletes and home grown talent around, guys who can wrestle and do more then 10 moves each. At the same time the guys they have cant sell out a 20,000 plus seat arena. That doesn't mean that they suck it just means they dont have national exposure and thats a key that a big star brings along. Say you take Roderick Strong for example and advertise him for a main event in WWE or TNA it doesn't equal much in rating or buyrate increases. Where as if you say Stone Cold is coming to ROH for a night would make a huge stir and large sum of money and at the same time would draw new fans in to watch that probably never watched ROH before. There for by bringing in the big name guy you are exposing new viewers to your product and based on what ROH puts out it would surely generate new fans.

 

[Paul_J_L]

"...do more than 10 moves each"

Uh...Bret Hart had the dreaded 5-Moves of DEATH, and he's considered, by many, to be one of the greatest of all time.

Once you've seen one Ric Flair match, you've basically seen them all, but he's considered to be one of the best wrestlers ever.

Shawn Michaels and Chris Jericho basically placed the same moves, at key points, but both are considered greats of the game.

So, I hate to shoot your "workrate = awesomeness" argument down, but knowing more than 10 moves doesn't make a great match. Look at old Puro (which I LOVE), that's a great balance between action and storytelling (like the Taue/Kawada-Kobashi/Misawa match, which was BEYOND God-like).

So, really, if you don't know how to tell a good story in the ring, and pop off 15-25 finishers in a match, doesn't mean that you're good, it makes the match too unbelievable (in the wrong way), then make people WANT to see the match. That's why WWE wrestlers are considered some of the best in the biz, they are pretty good storytellers, and the main eventers knows how to paint a hellova picture in the ring.



But back to the topic, the thing is that currently, you are feeding to the niche customers, about 500-800, roughly, who are into you product (and into wrestling WAY too much for their own good), and you want to go from that number to 1000-1600. How would you get there?...

That's right, by bringing in more known talent. But the issue, and one that TNA is suffering seriously from, how do you do this while building your guys?

By having a entertaining feud where the younger guy gets the better of the older, more known, vet.

The problem is that most of the more known vets are PRETTY egotistical. So, you have to know who you're dealing with, otherwise you're going to have a TNA/WCW effect with the bigger named guys not wanting the younger guys to get the better of them.

That's the reason why you aren't going to have that many bigger named current main event guys in the ROH. ROH is workrate first, not really storytelling first, so, by association, the bigger named wrestler, who's been wrestling story-driven matches for 5-10 years would TOTALLY get exposed by a organization, tailored to a niche, workrate orientated, crowd.

There were really only a couple of people who have fit that mould; Benjamin and Hass, Angle, Eddie G, Benoit, Jericho, and HBK. Raven was more tailored to "garbage" wrestling, so he really only needed to veer his matches with Punk into Hardcore-style.

HBK - Retired, cameo, but not likely
Y2J - On hiatus, not likely
Benoit - No Comment
Eddie G - Dead (RIP)
Angle - TNA (and getting 6-7 figure paychecks...Yeah, not a chance)
Benjamin/Hass - Doing this until either Japanese/Major Promotions starts a-calling

So, really, getting a well-known wrestler to come in and start a program with the ROH guys are really not likely. Again, they have to be really in the twilight in their careers, becuase a younger star would require a HUGE paycheck for the job, PLUS, a one-off maybe, a long-term career-making feud unlikely, as like I've said above, why would you want to work for less money when you could do the same work for more.

And the way I see it, until ROH goes from regional to national, I don't see anyone of named reckognition wanting to get a pay cut for a lengthy feud.

 

[Maestro48239]

I saw my first ROH card last night in Dearborn Michigan, the Survival of the fittest 2010. and growing up a wrestling fan, I've seen many shows live, mostly WWF/WWE.

but after last night's show, I doubt I'll ever be able to sit through a WWE product again. the wrestling last night was freaking incredible. the moves, the pops, the all-around quality of wrestling was so far above WWE or TNA in quality.

my idea is for ROH to get off of HDNet and get on a real channel. like a spike type channel. too many people dont get HDNet (including me) and it makes it harder to watch and become a fan of.