What is a "MARK"

[Master_MIND]

The most relevant definition of this term as it applies to pro wrestling is this (taken from urbandictionary.com):

noun. A person identified as an easy target, or "sucker". A mark is always the short end of a joke or scam, and is never let in on whats going on. A mark is usually being cheated out of money. It's origin is from old English traveling carnivals from the late 1800s to early 1900s, where workers would refer to people paying to see thier made up shows and games a "mark". not from urban gangsters like most people think. Mark is also the origin to the term "smark" or "smart mark" which is a person who know's he/she is being scamed.

I have always assumed the term began in the early days of pro wrestling when the audience believed it was real, and by that I mean they didn't know the finish was pre-determined and they thought it was a real fight. However, nowadays the vast majority of fans know that wrestling is fixed and to some extent choreographed. So this term has taken on a whole new meaning.

To me this term is used simply for wrestling fans. It means you pay money to watch the product, whether that be live or on television.

But does that mean you have to enjoy the product? Are you only a fan, or a mark if you like it?

Then we have the term "smark" or in other words a "smart sucker." So this is just a fan who knows a bit more (or 'thinks' they know more) about the business and backstage gossip than the average fan. Yet they still pay money for the product like the "marks." Isn't it worse to know you are being ripped off or scammed?

It seems as though smarks feel superior to marks. Do you agree with this? Why are smarks 'better' than marks. Aren't we all, as fans, just suckers anyways?

Do people need these terms to make them feel better about themselves? Do they need them to justify watching pro wrestling. Are people embarrassed to admit they watch it and even more to admit they enjoy it?

I ask these questions because it really bothers me when wrestling pundits from this website use the term 'mark' because they do it in a negative way and use it as a pejorative.

First and worst of all Mark Madden. He uses the term in a very negative way almost to ridicule wrestling fans. On a segment last year he said the last time he "marked-out" was when Ric Flair won the Royal Rumble in 1991. So I take that to mean that was the last time he enjoyed pro wrestling. So because he hasn't enjoyed it in the last 20 years he is not a 'mark'? What is he then? Well he was, and in my opinion, the worst commentator in the history of the business. He made Nitro un-watchable. The talent was bad at the time yes but he made the entire show unbearable. He seems to hate a lot of people in the business and he shows that every chance he gets. I think that is a product of even more people hating him and because he is a fat piece of no- talent shit and people disrespected him and treated him poorly. He is still bitter and he runs people down every chance he gets. Pathetic.

My question is why would you continue doing anything for 20 years if you didn't enjoy it? 20 Fucking Years!!!! I'm sure he would say that it's his job and he gets paid to watch wrestling and talk about it. But seriously how much money can he possible get? I highly doubt it is enough to keep doing something, or watching something you truly hate for 20 years! I guess when you are that fat sitting on your ample ass and watching wrestling isn't that bad. Beats the hell out of exercising. Plus he gets to criticize an industry that hates him even more than he misses it...oops I mean hates it too. Bitching is just easier and lazy people like to take the easy way.

The other 2 people are Isenberg and LaBar. They use the term as well in a negative way. They are the ultimate wrestling fans that's why they do CSR. LaBar more than Isenberg seems to really believe he works in "the business". He is always mentioning his 'sources' and talks about being in locker rooms with superstars. He is just the biggest loser...sorry I meant wrestling fan in the world. He works in the wrestling business like Perez Hilton works in Hollywood. They have a small influence over an even smaller percentage of the audience. If your dream is to to work in the wrestling business good for you. But you are doing it because you are a fan and want to be involved. It doesn't make you better than any other fan.

So what is a 'mark' to you? Are you a 'mark' and is being a 'mark' bad?

 

[MrMojoRisin]

A mark is simply old carny lingo that was popular back when wrestling first began to be a worked sport. The mark would be a sucker that fell for the work (think 3 card monte), and the lingo stuck in the business as kayfabe grew. Basic sense, the mark is the fan.

Smark of course is the smart mark, and is exactly what you said it is.

Guys like Madden, Labar and Isenberg? They would actually be the jokes. They're in the business in the most basic sense (they have a website devoted to wrestling). Their major source... seems to be twitter. Madden in particular, from everything I've gathered, has no respect whatsoever among those actually in the business, and he is extremely bitter about that. Labar and Isenberg? If I didn't happen to use the forum on their website, I wouldn't even know who they are... and I'm someone that's followed wrestling very closely for close to 25 years, and while I'm not an insider in any way whatsoever, I do consider myself someone who is very knowledgable about wrestling as a whole.

Is being a 'mark' bad? Not in any way whatsoever. Without the marks, there wouldn't be professional wrestling.

 

[Larry]

I can't really speak to whether or not BEING a mark or smark is a bad thing. As mojorisin mentioned, without the marks/smarks there wouldn't be professional wrestling. What bothers me about it is the fact that those in the business refer to the people they rely on a derogatory name. What the fuck kind of deal is that? You call the very people you depend on so that you can stay in business "Suckers", "Marks"? To me that just says they really don't give a fuck about the fans, and we must be suckers to give them our money since they clearly don't respect us. Do you know any other industry where the people in it refer to their customers in a derogatory manner? I don't. That's why you have some of them from time to time who come out and stroke the fans ego's by laying false praise on them, gotta keep the money rolling in, and keep up the facade that we matter in a capacity beyond paying their bills. That's at least what it seems like, I may be completely wrong and that's fine, but I think you clearly see the conflict of interest here. It's like "Don't call me a mark motherfucker, call me BOSS okay, because if I don't pay, you don't play, and you have to go and work a real job like this "mark" whose money you want, but also want to treat like an idiot".

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

I don't think it's someone who believes it's real anymore, because no one does.

I think a mark is the guy too dumb and/or too much of a fan of someone else to realize WHY John Cena is at the end of both the WWE intro and the Raw intro. The guy who legitimately says stupid shit like "Jericho won't win so the match will suck". They know it's a stage, they know it's a business, but still let their fanhood get in the way of reality.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

I can't really speak to whether or not BEING a mark or smark is a bad thing. As mojorisin mentioned, without the marks/smarks there wouldn't be professional wrestling. What bothers me about it is the fact that those in the business refer to the people they rely on a derogatory name. What the fuck kind of deal is that? You call the very people you depend on so that you can stay in business "Suckers", "Marks"? To me that just says they really don't give a fuck about the fans, and we must be suckers to give them our money since they clearly don't respect us. Do you know any other industry where the people in it refer to their customers in a derogatory manner? I don't. That's why you have some of them from time to time who come out and stroke the fans ego's by laying false praise on them, gotta keep the money rolling in, and keep up the facade that we matter in a capacity beyond paying their bills. That's at least what it seems like, I may be completely wrong and that's fine, but I think you clearly see the conflict of interest here. It's like "Don't call me a mark motherfucker, call me BOSS okay, because if I don't pay, you don't play, and you have to go and work a real job like this "mark" whose money you want, but also want to treat like an idiot".

Yes, you're absolutely right that it's a derogatory term. I think with some, it's just because the lingo became so ingrained that they don't realize it, but it still is derogatory.

The guys I notice using it most though, are the Madden's, Labar's, ect. Guys inside the business on the very loosest of terms (I could put up a website tomorrow and copy/paste news too... does that mean I've become an 'insider'?) They seem to use it more because to me it seems like them trying to convince people that they are on the inside, because hey, I use the old carny lingo so that should tell you I'm an insider. To me it comes across as an insecurity thing.

Something tells me though, if you were to ask a guy like Triple H if terms like 'mark' are still used backstage, he'd laugh and say he hasn't heard it for years. Some guys do like answering fan questions on twitter though... it'd be interesting to ask one the question and see what type of answer they give.

 

[agentmichaelscarn]

I use the term mark a little more loosely than I think other people do. For me there are a couple types of marks in wrestling. For one there are the marks that even though they know wrestling is fake they get sucked into all the storylines. For example back in the day when Bischoff was GM of Raw a guy I used to work with literally thought that he did control Raw and had the final say of everything that went on there. He obviously knew wrestling was fake but since the storyline said Bischoff was in charge he bought into that. Somebody like that I would call a mark.

Another type of mark is somebody that has a blind loyalty to a certain wrestler no matter what. Admittedly I fall into that category with Bret Hart. No matter what he does or did I seem to find away to spin it or defend him so he looks good even though deep down I may know that he was wrong. So I consider myself a Bret Hart mark.

But anyway I guess everybody has a different definition of it but that is mine so take it for what it's worth.

 

[Mark Gallows]

Yup, it started out as carny lingo, same with "working". There's no shame in being a "mark", isn't "marking out" at an event half the fun? When used in a derogatory manner imo they're refering to people who don't understand the buisness/aren't in the buisness but think they do.

If you want an example of a real "Mark" just look at Eric Bischoff. The guy knows nothing about the buisness, just how to spend other people's money, but thinks he's a "genius". Ridicules the internet...but will do any internet show going to try get himself over...what I'm trying to say is, the guy is a "mark" for himself.

 

[ShinobiMusashi]

Yup, it started out as carny lingo, same with "working". There's no shame in being a "mark", isn't "marking out" at an event half the fun? When used in a derogatory manner imo they're refering to people who don't understand the buisness/aren't in the buisness but think they do.

If you want an example of a real "Mark" just look at Eric Bischoff. The guy knows nothing about the buisness, just how to spend other people's money, but thinks he's a "genius". Ridicules the internet...but will do any internet show going to try get himself over...what I'm trying to say is, the guy is a "mark" for himself.

Great example. Bischoff is indeed a fine example of a mark.

Brian Pillman's classic ECW shoot just days after his WCW "Booker Man" debacle was pretty awesome back in the day. He pretty much said everything that you posted, but in different wording.

Easily one of the all time greatest "Worked Shoots" where he explained to everyone in the crowd what exactly a "Mark" is.

A mark is a person that spends his last 20$ on a crack rock!

Pretty classic rant. Youtube Brian Pillman's "I'm Brian fuckin' Pillman" ECW shoot to find out what a mark is.

 

[Dagger Dias]

So what is a 'mark' to you? Are you a 'mark' and is being a 'mark' bad?

The definition of a mark is a fan of professional wrestling. It is often used to describe the fans who are not aware of the predetermined results as well as anyone who thinks that a wrestler's gimmick is identical to how they act in real life outside of the ring. In today's day and age it is much more difficult to find these types of fans due to the internet and how easy it is to obtain information about how the business works. If this were two decades ago, we would be having an entirely different discussion. Now a good number of the fans know about predetermined results and how a gimmick is just a role.

I am a mark in the sense that I am a pro wrestling fan, and have been for nearly my whole life. I do know that it's predetermined, and knew that years ago. The same goes for gimmicks. As a child I did not know any better though, and fit that type of description of a mark. It's not bad to be a mark, in some ways it makes the show more enjoyable. You aren't sitting there thinking to yourself wondering if each spot could lead to "real" injuries or who the new champion became friends with backstage to get pushed. Instead those marks just sit back and enjoy the show. As fans who know how the business works, but (for most of us anyway) do not work in it, we can honestly learn a thing or two from the marks and try to enjoy the show more rather than analyzing it to death on a daily basis.

 

[HBsam31]

Never really liked the term to be honest. I always thought it meant someone who was a fan, and got excited for the product, or one that still thought wrestling was real. I later learned it did not mean the latter part of that statement, but when wrestlers and writers (specifically Mark Madden) use it, it almost comes off as a derogatory statement to describe the fans. I don't use the word or understand why fans have a specific name. I know some fans think they know to much, but without the fans there would be no product.

 

[arkady]

"Mark" is an outdated term, with regards to pro-wrestling.

There's no longer any kayfabe, fans know exactly what they're getting when they pay to see a show and therefore there's no scam.

No scam, no marks. Just fans.

 

[Peoples_Champ]

Mark is not an outdated term at all. Kayfabe absolutely still exists, it's just been bent quite a bit.

As Dagger Dias said, Mark is someone who's a professional wrestling fan and allows themselves to suspend realistic belief. A smart mark, or smark, is someone who knows the tricks behind professional wrestling but remains a fan and suspends disbelief anyways.

Tell a parent who just bought his kid hundreds of dollars worth of merchandise, tickets, concessions, parking, etc. that their kid isn't a mark. Casual followers are fans, people that buy into the product are marks.

 

[arkady]

Mark is not an outdated term at all. Kayfabe absolutely still exists, it's just been bent quite a bit.

As Dagger Dias said, Mark is someone who's a professional wrestling fan and allows themselves to suspend realistic belief. A smart mark, or smark, is someone who knows the tricks behind professional wrestling but remains a fan and suspends disbelief anyways.

Tell a parent who just bought his kid hundreds of dollars worth of merchandise, tickets, concessions, parking, etc. that their kid isn't a mark. Casual followers are fans, people that buy into the product are marks.

Does kayfabe really exist? I don't think it does. Kayfabe was about the genuine belief that wrestling was real, but no promotions pretend wrestling is a competitive sport any more.*

No, kayfabe has been replaced with (or evolved into) the willing suspension of disbelief and it is this difference that I believe to be the difference between a mark and a fan.

You see, to my mind a "mark" is someone who believes what they are watching is real, and a fan is someone who knows it isn't real but buys into it anyway - the same way people will buy into, say, a Star Wars film and enjoy the story* while knowing they're watching a fiction.

Ultimately, I think the only thing we can really conclude here is that "mark" means different things to different people. With the decline (or evolution) of kayfabe the traditional meaning of the word "mark" (someone being scammed, believing they're watching a real fight) has ceased to be relevant, and the word has been appropriated in other ways. Such is the nature of language.

The term "mark" is, therefore, in flux. It doesn't have a definitive meaning as different people understand the word in different ways. Until a consensus is reached "mark" will mean whatever people want it to mean.

Until then, I think we'll have to agree to disagree; clearly state what our interpretation of the word is when we use it; and use it carefully, as some people still see it a derogatory term.


*Prequel? What prequel?


* As a side note, I wonder whether an MMA promotion could pass itself off as real, while doing what wrestling companies used to do. Almost certainly not, I suspect.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

"Mark" is someone who is not in the wrestling business. This is how it was described to me in my very brief training with Truth Martini.

It is used more loosely among fans. Those who think they are "up" on the business will call themselves "smarks" or whatever.

In all reality...who gives a shit? We pay them money.