What if Hogan and Flair switched careers?

[My Couch Pulls Out But I Don't]

I got the idea for this thread from the Four Horsemen vs NWO thread.

The question is simple..

What would the wrestling industry be like if Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair had each others careers?

Would the Four Horsemen been as popular? Would the NWO have had the same impact it did?

How do you think the industry would have changed? Would it be better or worse?

Discuss.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

You have to set the parameters... Is it what if NWA/WCW had bought Hogan in at Flair's Expense? Also bear in mind things like the NWO/Horsemen would likely not have happened.

This is gonna be v.long!!!

I am gonna go with what if Vince hired Flair instead of Hogan (who stayed in the AWA) as his figurehead.

So it's late 1984 and Hogan, during negotiations with Vince makes a comment that annoys him, so he decides not to continue with the negotiation. Vince was annoyed that Hogan was so disparaging of Bob Backlund, a champion who had served the company well as a "wrestling champion". While VKM had been set on a new direction, Hogan's comments that he would "crush Backlund" made him think again. So he reached out to the top man in the NWA of the time, Dusty Rhodes about being the alternative to Hogan.

Rhodes was booking in his current position so not minded to move, but saw the opportunity to rid himself of major competition in the NWA and began to talk to Ric Flair about making the jump. Vince wanted a man who could make wrestling "larger than life" but still accessible to traditional fans. A meeting was arranged and Flair, while wary of Vince's plans for cartoons, action figures and ice cream bars was equally wary of his title being taken by David Von Erich, a "done deal" in the NWA hierarchy as Von Erich was seen as the next big thing. Flair was fond of the kid but didn't particularly want to lose the belt to him as he was younger than Flair was when he'd won his first title. Vince and Flair quickly came to terms and agreed they would keep his leaving secret until an agreed time in 1984.

That day comes when due to an NWA oversight, Flair's Mid South contract elapses, just weeks before the scheduled title loss. Flair had negotiated that to counter his reservations about losing the belt, it would take place during a tour of Japan, giving Von Erich the honor of being the "returning hero", and that his $25,000 deposit on the belt would be refunded prior to the trip as a sign of goodwill.

The fatal oversight was 2 fold... firstly Flair was no-longer under contract to Crocketts on the day he was scheduled to fly out and 2nd, the NWA had failed to refund the deposit as they had been legally required to as part of the match contract. To coin a phrase... Flair "had em". Von Erich, being a young star rode in coach on the plane to Japan, assuming Flair was (as champ) in First Class. In fact Flair was on a charter flight to Madison Square Garden and as Von Erich realised Flair was not there and trying to contact the NWA to find out what was going on, Ric Flair was leaving the MSG ring holding both the WWF and NWA world title belts, having just defeated Bob Backlund in a 60 minute epic. The fans were confused but happy, despite Flair's heel status, they had just seen a match like never before. Backlund's 7 year reign was over and wrestling had it's first ever "Undisputed" champion seemingly.

News broke quickly and the NWA and rest of wrestling were united in shock at the turn of events. Flair stated he had done nothing wrong or illegal and that Crockett and the NWA had "dropped the ball" so spectacularly that they could only be blamed. Dusty Rhodes was immediately named Interim NWA champion and flown out to Japan to compete in the contracted match, although without the belt it was a hollow moment for young David Von Erich, robbed of his moment of glory.

After weeks of parading both belts on TV, the NWA had to do something and hastily agreed to a merger with Verne Gagne's AWA whose belt would become the ANWA World Title. Gagne brokered a hard bargain and demanded that Hulk Hogan, his current champion be the man to carry the title for the first year at minimum, Rhodes would not be booking and that David Von Erich would not be a champion on his watch.

The NWA's belt was worth next to worthless to them so they agreed, though with some provisos of their own. Their Secondary titles would remain under their controls and the individual territories could agree to sign up to the new deal or not, a deal that suited Gagne who figured he could cherry pick who he wanted and leave the rest to their fate. Vince was clearly going national and so was he.

Only 2 territories refused to join the new ANWA - Fritz Von Erich's World Class and Jim Barnett's Georgia Championship Wrestling. Fritz was angered at how David had been treated and vowed never to work with the new organisation, while Barnett knew he had TV on TBS Superstation and was ready to get behind 4 new stars... Jake Roberts, Ted DiBiase and The Road Warriors.

Barnett was left reeling a short time later when without his knowledge, his business partners, Jerry and Jack Brisco sold their shares to Vince McMahon in a deal that included their TV time. The infamous "Black Saturday" occured, when Ric Flair once again appeared on TBS, just 6 months after leaving, with a new brand of wrestling. Flair was magnetic in that performance, saying how he had seen the bright lights and knew there was only ever one stage for him, the biggest and that something so big was coming that it would change wrestling forever, he invited the fans (and in a sly way) fellow wrestlers to come and be part of WRESTLEMANIA!

That show did for GCW in more ways than one, all the talk was of how much the production value was better, how Vince had just not only changed the game but the whole wrestling world and how they needed to be part of it. WWF had started a large drive of recruitment already and within weeks several top talents from around the world had joined.

From Canada came Bret Hart, Jim Neidhart, Davey Boy Smith and Dynamite Kid. From Georgia, The Road Warriors, Jake Roberts and Paul Orndorrf. Fritz, protective of his sons after the NWA debacle sent young talent such as The newly formed Freebirds to see how they were treated and Bill Watts, always keen to do the best for him, agreed short loan deals with both sides for several key talents.

Meanwhile in the ANWA, Hogan was quickly presented a new belt and defended his title against Jesse Ventura throughout the summer. Rhodes, annoyed at what he saw as a snub began to seriously consider jumping knowing Vince needed a bankable opponent for Flair. Ventura himself was growing through working against Hogan and felt he should be afforded a title run or at least a pinfall win. Gagne butted heads with Ventura once too often and Vince immediately made the leap to sign him. Dusty was quickly turned against Hogan, explaining he blamed him for all the ills of in Wrestling. The feud did solid business, enough to consider a big blow off on TV.

In the WWF, Vince had a massive assortment of young, exciting talent and began to assign them with colourful gimmicks that could be marketed to kids and adults alike. Jake Roberts became Jake "The Snake", a calculating heel who carried a snake in a bag with him, terrorizing his opponents, The Road Warriors were nightmarish visions of power, managed by Humongous (Masked Superstar Bill Eadie) like their movie counterparts. nition, one by one, the territory major names began to choose sides. Ricky Steamboat headed to the WWF, while Randy Savage chose the ANWA. The NWA had previously run Starrcade as a closed circuit event and this year ANWA did it on network TV in a 2 hour event that got big ratings, Hulk Hogan defeated Dusty Rhodes, Curt Hennig beat Wahoo McDaniel for the US title and Greg Gagne won the vacant TV title.

Many younger talents were angry that Gange was showing nepotism and looked to jump ship. In particular, Arn Anderson and Magnum TA whom lost in the TV title tournament. In the WWF some older talent began to look enviously at the ANWA as a potential way to gain a final pay day. In early 1985, Sgt. Slaugher made the leap, along with Superstar Billy Graham, Iron Sheik and Rocky Johnson. Gagne was unsuccessful in luring Andre The Giant, who despite knowing he would not be a realistic contender to Flair, knew that he would always be pushed in the WWF and was distrustful of Hogan.

If Starcade 84 was a success, then it was soon forgotten in the hype for arguably the turning point... Wrestlemania.... Vince knew he needed several hoods to be able to sell the event on Pay Per View, he had a must see selection of wrestlers, but needed crossover talent to sell it to casual fans. One canny piece of business he had done was sign the young Freebirds to a written deal, he liked their energy, attitude and lack of fear to push the buttons...The Freebirds were rock and wrestling personified, acting up like rockstars, causing mayhem and becoming embroiled in a feud with legendary KISS member Gene Simmons at a live show that was getting huge interest on MTV. The Freebirds even released a record called "Badstreet" that made minor rotation. KISS as a band had been the forerunners of the merchandisng phenomenon Vince was starting to put in place, and Simmons had been a guest to "advise him"... When he asked if he wanted to be part of an angle, the wannabe actor jumped at the chance as it provided a chance to reinvigorate his and his bands fortunes. A live MTV event was scheduled where The Freebirds would come face to face with Simmons and have out their differences. In shocking scenes, Hayes, Gordy, Roberts and new member Terry Taylor smashed a Gold Disc over Simmon's head and gang beating him...

Controversy reigned, The Freebirds went onto national talkshows and acted like brats, with Hayes famously burping in Letterman's face. The publicity quickly snowballed and it was clear the Freebirds would have a major part in Wrestlemania. Meanwhile Ric Flair was preparing to hear who his number one contender would be, would it be Bob Backlund or Jesse Ventura? Flair got his answer when Ricky Steamboat appeared at the Press Conference accompanied by Superfly Jimmy Snuka. The two had had legendary matches in the past and just as Steamboat was about to speak, Snuka took him out, turning heel in the process. As Snuka was wrestled out by security Flair turned to see ANOTHER familiar face behind him...

"You see Flair? Ricky was just gonna say I, ME, HOT ROD is gonna be your opponent at Wrestlemania m'bucko." Roddy Piper had kept his signing secret and immediatly put a thumb to the eye of Flair and began tearing up his £5000 suit.

The stage was set for Wrestlemania... The Matches...

Main Event

Ric Flair & Jimmy Snuka v Roddy Piper & Ricky Steamboat

Andre The Giant v Big John Studd

Rock v Wrestling Match

The Freebirds v The Kiss Army (Paul Orndorrf, Matt Borne, David Sammartino & Bob Orton all in Kiss Makeup and managed by the band.)

WWF Tag Team Titles
The Road Warriors (w Humongous) v The US Express

IC Title

Junkyard Dog v Jesse Ventura w/ Bobby Heenan

Greg Valentine v Magnum TA
Jake Roberts v Tito Santana

I know who I think won... hows about you?

 

[Nada]

Most likely the industry would have been worse off, i dont see how McMahon would have built the WWF around Ric Flair as a huge babyface.

Dont get me wrong Ric Flair is superior to Hogan in multiple ways, but not in charisma and ability to connect with the mainstream. His natural role is that of a heel, its a role he perfected.

Same reason that if Triple H won that King of the Ring he wouldnt go ever near reaching Austin success.

Being able to connect to a non wrestling audience is a very rare thing, only 3 guys in america could ever do that, Ric Flair for all his greatness, never really achieved that.

 

[thebarber]

put simply, professional wrestlnig would not be anywhere near as mainstream as it is today. Hulk Hogan did not have the technical abikity to carry the NWA as World Champion and wrestle one hour matches all over the world. The 4 horsement would not have happened, Hogan would have defected to WWE down the track and been landed some shit house gimmick, he would not even be known as Hulk Hogan. As for Flair, he would never have been the legend he is today. Not sure how the guy who posted for a millenium had the time to contemplate such a story(fun read though) but reall, this thread topic is too far fetched and open to anything,

 

[thebarber]

ain Event

Ric Flair & Jimmy Snuka v Roddy Piper & Ricky Steamboat

As tihs is Wrestlemania, I would have to go with the "face" team of Piper and Steamboat winning the match with Stemaboat pinning Superfly with his own flying bodypress as Piper and Flair grapple on the outside of the ring.

Andre The Giant v Big John Studd: Andre beats Studd, I dont change anything there

Rock v Wrestling Match

The Freebirds v The Kiss Army (Paul Orndorrf, Matt Borne, David Sammartino & Bob Orton all in Kiss Makeup and managed by the band.) The KISS army have to win, with Gene Simmons spitting green mist in Michael Hayes face before setting him up for the Orndorff piledriver and pinfall victory

WWF Tag Team Titles
The Road Warriors (w Humongous) v The US Express: The Road Warriors absolutely destroy Windham and Rotundo, and a heel victory for the Warriors

IC Title

Junkyard Dog v Jesse Ventura w/ Bobby Heenan': Witj a heel WWE Champ and Tag Champs, the JYD gets the win and the IC Title, pushing towards becoming the number one face in the company.

Greg Valentine v Magnum TA: Magnum TA gets the win in the opening contest, the beginning of his slow 2 year push before its Ric Flair vs Magnum TA at Wrestlemania 3. Magnums accident doesnt happen more than likely if he is in WWF

Jake Roberts v Tito Santana: Jake ddt's and pins Santana

 

[HBKperfect23]

Interesting question.

Flair was built for the NWA and Hogan was built for the (W)WWF. I dont see either of them having anywhere near the success they did in the opposing company. McMahon always wanted a sbabyface champions so Flair may never have even won the world title. I still see Roddy as the number 1 heel in WWF. Hogan didnt have the wrestling ability to make it in the NWA and I dont see him doing too well there.

Wrestlemanias original main event probably would have been:
Roddy Piper and Ric Flair vs Another 6'4''-6'6'' bodybuilder type with Hogan type push and maybe Mr T, maybe Backlund sticks around and gets a spot in the match.

Either that or Wrestlemania is delayed a few years until Vince gets his super hero Hogan character.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

Part 2 (enjoyed writing the first part too much lol)

So Wrestlemania was in the books... Junkyard Dog had retained his IC title against Jesse Ventura, The Road Warriors were the new Tag Team Champions and The Kiss Army had controversially lost to the Freebirds when disgruntled former band members Peter Criss and Ace Frehley showed up in Freebird attire allowing Hayes the pin after hitting Orndorrf with a guitar.

Andre The Giant had beaten Big John Studd but had been "injured" when Bobby Heenan's insurance policy, King Kong Bundy attacked Andre after the match.

In the main event, Piper and Steamboat had beaten Flair and Snuka in an epic tag encounter. Flair used every trick in the book but was undone when Snuka accidentally headbutted him while holding Piper. This allowed the 1-2-3 for Hot Rod.

The show had done well, it had made enough money to cover its costs, make a tidy profit and had raised the profile of the WWF greatly. McMahon was unsure of Piper's credentials as a babyface champion, feeling that Flair needed a bigger scale opponent who the fans would really want to beat him.

Over in the ANWA things were not rosy, Gagne had clearly overstretched himself financially and while his grand plan to take over the NWA was well underway he was finding it hard to match Vince's new slick "Monday Night Football" quality production. ANWA's "Great American Bash" saw Hulk Hogan defend his title against Superstar Billy Graham in the Superstars "Retirement Match". Randy Savage and Sgt. Slaughter had a brutal Boot Camp match with Randy stealing a win by using Slaughter's cane and Curt Hennig and Randy Savage had a critically acclaimed 30 minute draw.

Gagne knew the numbers wouldn't be good enough because none of his heels were a realistic match for Hogan, he had desperately wanted Andre to create a "Clash Of The Giants" but Andre's loyalty to the McMahons had thwarted him. Hogan too was concerned that the promised TV contracts were not materialising and that Gangne had vetoed an appearance on the A-Team as he wanted to avoid confusion during the Wrestlemania build. In the ANWA's undercard, several talents looked on enviously at the WWE, particularly The Freebirds who had just cameoed in the new hollywood blockbuster "Highlander" along with The Road Warriors in an exciting scene where the hero sword fights through an arena. Michael Hayes in particular was being picked out for superstardom, he was charismatic, good looking and had excellent ring skills. Randy Savage and Curt Hennig felt Gagne had overlooked their contributions and on a chance meeting between Savage and Ricky Steamboat he admitted... "We could tear the house down if we got the chance but not for Verne... he'd never allow it..." Steamboat was sympathetic to Savage and quietly put a word in to Vince that if the opportunity arose, he would like to work with Savage.

Towards the end of 1985, Verne Gagne had a serious problem. Southern media magnate Ted Turner had noticed that "Wrasslin'" had become big business and was looking for a slice. WWE currently was on his TBS superstation on the contract that the Brisco's had sold, Ted was looking to take Wrestling as a major part of his new network, but while Verne was looking for a TV/Silent Partner deal, Ted was after the whole pie. He had seen the value of Hogan as a potential star of TV movies for his TCM channel but felt Verne was too "old school" to ever allow such crossovers.

At the same time, Vince began to negotiate the contract for Wrestlemania 2, he had a grand vision of simulcasting from MSG, Dallas and LA. That Vince was contemplating "invading" the south at all was a bold move, but he already had his eye on Wrestlemania 3... if this one worked, he wanted WM3 to be MSG, LA and London, making his event the first truly global one.

Ted Turner would be the key to the future of both the ANWA and WWE... and in early 1986 he made his move. In a cordial conversation, Vince rejected Turner's offer of partnership but agreed to sell the TBS slot back if he bought out the ANWA, on the proviso that he could have 5 wrestlers from the ANWA roster, that if Hogan ever chose to leave he would not be prevented from joining the WWF and that Verne, an old enemy would be out of the business. While Turner was reluctant to "screw" Verne over, he realised that he had an able replacement in Dusty Rhodes and agreed if Rhodes was not one of the 5. Vince, never enamoured of Dusty readily agreed... and the future was set.

Verne was in shock... 24 hours ago he had gotten the call from Ted and the number had made him elated. On recieving the contract and reading the summary of terms, he suddenly realised the magnitude of what he was about to do... "Ted, surely I can..." was met with a shake of the head from the mogul. "It's non-negotiable Verne, you're being more than handsomely rewarded for your work, but it's time to change this "wrasslin'" business up, and the longer its left the further ahead Vince will get...

"5 guys? who are they?, what about Greg?"

5 minutes later the deal was signed a corporate fed ex was sent to all contracted ANWA talent stating the change of ownership, that the company would from now on be called World Championship Wrestling.

Vince had agreed that roster changes would not take place till the summer to allow time for moves and that Wrestlemania 2 was well underway. And the event did take place in 3 different arenas as planned.

In the ring, The Freebirds had gotten a big following and fans clamoured to see the match from the movie for real... It was inevitable that they would turn face and did so when The Road Warriors injured both Funk brothers on TV... The Freebirds made the save and challenged the Warriors and Humungous to a match at Wrestlemania 2.

Ric Flair and Piper had feuded throughout the year, but Piper had consistantly come up short against "The Nature Boy", Jesse Ventura interfered in one particular match and bloodied Piper so a grudge match was set for Wrestlemania 2.

JYD had defended the IC title valiantly until finally coming up short against Jimmy Snuka. JYD had picked up an injury so Ricky Steamboat was put in his place and a Cage Match was set for the Atlanta portion of WM2.

The undercard was exciting with Bret Hart becoming the first WWF Light-Heavyweight Champion by beating Tito Santana, The British Bulldogs besting Paul Orndorrf and Don Muraco, Andre The Giant winning a Battle Royale featuring NFL players by eliminating King Kong Bundy, Jake Roberts beating Greg Valentine and Kerry Von Erich besting Brutus Beefcake.

In World Class, Fritz had seen the success the Freebirds had gained and had agreed that he would supply talent in future, while remaining independent. It was quickly agreed that David would finally get his title shot at Wrestlemania 2 although the title would not change hands, it would spotlight all of the Von Erichs and Kerry, who Vince saw as a future star would work full time with the WWF from then on. The match was the headline in Dallas and was considered one of the best of all time. David Von Erich took Flair to the wire before passing out to the figure four... Vince was happy that his concept had worked and done good business with Fritz, giving him access to talents he coveted such as Rick Rude, Gino Hernandez and Dingo Warrior and with his pick of 5 WCW talents his roster would be the most comprehensive. Fritz would in essence be a developmental territory for him, he would send mid card WWF talent, who would be main eventers there to help Fritz with his business. While the long game was still to own it all, Vince was pragmatic enough to see that some territorial business was still good.

Vince now chose his 5... the tension in WCW was palpable, some still wanted out, others were excited by Turner's new direction, Ted hoped to avoid unpleasentness or Vince clearing out the best talent and was prepared to argue but also wanted to be seen to keep his word...


First out of box was Curt Hennig, Vince had worked with him in the past and saw a gimmick where he would be the best technical wrestler there is.

Nikita Koloff was next, Vince saw the big "russian" as a main event heel and as a Koloff had already been WWF champion in the 70's, an opportunity to create some hot feuds.

Ted DiBiase was 3rd, Vince had admired DiBiase since his early run in the 80's and forsaw a gimmick he would at one time would have liked himself, an arrogant millionaire who would pay fans to do crazy things and be a top heel.

4th was Lex Luger, Luger was a rookie but had an impressive bodybuilder's look. Vince knew he was green but figured with the amount of talent he had it could be masked while he learned, in the back of his mind he saw a potential Hulk Hogan, although he also thought the same about Dingo Warrior and The Warlord.

Finally, and the trade that was heard all over the world... Randy Savage... This one Ted was majorly unhappy with, to the point he offered 2 more picks to Vince to avoid it. Savage was red hot coming off feuds with Hennig & Sgt. Slaughter and was Dusty's ace in the hole for 2nd face in the company, once a suitable turn could be arranged. Vince had also met Randy's new wife, Elizabeth and saw her as a manager for Randy. Randy liked the idea as he didn't like leaving her backstage. Randy insisted on the move and against Turner's better judgement, he chose to allow it rather than renege on his agreement. Hogan was furious, he had become friends with Savage and felt betrayed by Turner as he saw major money in working with Savage and while he understood Savage's motives, was ultimately disappointed they would not be having their planned feud.

Tragedy struck shortly in late when David Von Erich died on a tour of Japan. Drugs were initially blamed although an undiscovered condition also may have contributed. Fritz was heartbroken and initially asked Vince for Kerry to win the title at a "memorial" show. Vince declined on the basis that Kerry was not well known enough to his viewers...in reality he had signed all the talent he wanted from World Class to deals where he controlled their schedules rather than Fritz, so could afford to sacrifice WCCW if need be.

Vince was ready to make a title change however, as he felt the time had come for Flair to "pay his WWF dues"... At first Vince thought of putting the belt on Michael Hayes, as he was quickly becoming the standout of The Freebirds, but he felt the team had a little more steam yet and merch was doing well, Hayes would keep... He felt Piper's time had gone, he had been an able main eventer, but he was on about doing some John Carpenter movie and that he even thought about doing it ruled him out of the title in Vince's head, Andre was a no-brainer, although there was no one big enough to beat him so it'd be painting himself into a corner, and Andre was happy without it anyway. It was then he remembered how Ricky Steamboat had been the one who initally turned him on to Savage and he thought that they could steal the show. Problem is, for it to work, would take 2 title changes Steamboat would have to be "hurt" so he couldn't win till the blow off... and heel v heel is not a good idea... the brainwave hit him, he could get something out of this... he called Fritz and laid out the deal... he gets his wish for a memorial show in the summer, they call it Summerslam and Kerry will beat Flair for the belt... he will then drop it on live TV in the first "Main Event" show to Randy Savage... For this Fritz will sell him WCCW.

Reluctantly, Fritz agreed, knowing that he was in no shape to argue after the tragedy and it would at least work well for his boys... the deal was done and at Summerslam 86 the card was...

Andre The Giant v The Road Warriors goes to a no contest when a new Road Warrior later called Lex interferes.
Randy Savage beating Roddy Piper (Savage tries to injure Piper with the ring bell,
Steamboat makes the save and takes the blow instead)
Ricky Steamboat beats Jake Roberts in a #1 contender match
The Freebirds & The British Bulldogs beat The Hart Foundation & The Dream Team (Arn Anderson & Curt Hennig)
Kerry wins the title amid emotional scenes, he is focused for the match and shows a previously unseen by Vince level of skill. He almost changes his mind on the immediate drop, but feels Savage/Steamboat has more money appear for WM3... He does decide though that Kerry will be IC champion and stay in the semi main event for the time being.

So who do you think would have won? I know this is long, might want to move it to book this... but having a ball writing it!

 

[FlairFan2003]

This is hard to answer because you have to set certain parameters, esentially do you mean if Hogan left the AWA for the NWA/Crockett Promotions (which Flair did in the late 70s) and Flair left the AWA and went to McMahon ...

Flair's jump to the NWA happened several years before Hogan left the AWA for WWF so it's hard to compare. Flair was by far the flashiest, most outrageous character driven star in Crockett Promotions, by those standards he was a perfect fit for McMahon (who did try to sign Flair on multiple occassions in the 80s). His promos are among the best all time, his ability to connect with fans almost second to none. The one poster who said Flair lacked Hogan's charisma is wrong, Flair had boatloads of charisma, he was a larger than life, McMahon-like character standing out in an old school, match not wrestler driven company (NWA). He was also way ahead of Hogan in performance ability. He was extremely popular as a face in 1983, 1985, & 1989 as well as 1997-99.

However, the appeal of Hogan's character had as much to do with the politics and culture of the times than anything else. In Reagan's America, fighting the drug wars, ending the Soviet Union, American's relished larger than life heroes (Rocky, Rambo, Indiana Jones, etc). Hogan was the ultimate "Real American", say your prayers, take your vitamins, work hard. He was a slightly watered down version of Dusty Rhodes "American Dream" character, trading his herculean super hero looks for Dusty's common man beer belly, jeans wearing pick up driving character. Strictly as a face, no star in the 80s natiowide was more popular than Dusty except Hogan. The only guy who really competes is Ultimate Warrior and he was a flash in the pan compared to these two.

Flair's best attribute was his ability to entertain older, more mature fans, not just kids. As a heel, especially during the height of The Horsemen, Flair answered Hogan's prayers & vitamins with Ladies Night & martinis. Hogan (like Rhodes) dressed down in T-Shirts & jeans to show he was "common man" material while Flair with his platinum blond hair and sunglasses paraded around in custom made suits. Flair was great at being the heel version of the fast break LA Lakers while Hogan was the working man's Boston Celtics.

The problem is Im not sure Flair would have been comfortable playing a Hogan like character. As popular as he was during different face turns, much of his popularity with fans came from the respect they had for his work. It got to a point in the 90s where WCW couldnt book Flair as a heels because fans cheered him almost no matter what, even against Hogan. That wasnt a reflection of approval of his antics (though the drinking and the womanizing might have had a small, anti social appeal) it was a reflection of older wrestling fans respecting his career and accomplishments and younger fans enjoying his charisma more than reviling his antics. Now maybe Flair would have been a good enough actor to pull off his own version of HulkaMania. We all know through the years that Hogan was not a goody too shoes behind the scenes, he became an almost cut throat business man protecting his image and character, often at odds with the good of the company. In front of the camera though he was America's hero, he played it like a pro. The juxtoposition of the real Hogan vs Hero Hulk is part of what made his NWO heel turn so effective for so many fans.

Hogan by contrast I think could have played many of Flair's heel characteristics quite well. Besides, who wouldnt enjoy playing a superbly dressed wealthy party animal who is the No 1 guy in the world at his profession. It's a great character, and Hogan had lots of charisma and the chiselled blond good looks, he very well might have played it successfully. Since Hogan spent little time in a wrestling company without the strict rules on promos, etc that McMahon's WWF had I have to wonder if he could have free lanced and been as entertaining on the mic as Flair was however, and make no mistake, Flair's promos as a heel were a HUGE part of his appeal and success.

Ultimatley, both guys were so good that I think they each could have pulled off the switch although I dont think Flair would have enjoyed playing the vitamin taking Mr Clean nearly as much as he indulged in playing The Nature Boy (ultimately he indulged that a little too much through the years). Hogan would have had some limitations with the excessive travel schedule in the NWA (Hogan did not work nearly as many shows on a monthly basis during his WWE heyday as Flair was working in the NWA) People worried that he would have suffered because he couldnt wrestle the kinds of matches Flair did, the martathon draws, the Best of 3 Falls showcases, the brutal cage matches. Hogan certianly could not have matched Flair's ring ability in the NWA but he knew his strengths and weaknesses as a performer very well and could have delivered solid matches for a long time, even if none of them would have been as good as Flair-Whyndam or Flair-Steamboat. With better skilled opponents Hogan would likely have given the NWA better matches than he gave WWE with his duds vs King Kong Bundy, Kamala, and Zeus.

Bottom line, do I think both companies would have been successful if these two switched roles ? Yes - do I think they both would have reached quite the same heights, No, only because each man was really tailor made for the character they played (Steve Austin is great but he couldnt pull off HBK's 90s gimmick for instance). I think both would have had similair success but I think each would have been better doing what they did with the characters they ended up playing.

I do think if Flair would have made the jump in 1985 he would have gotten a couple of WWE title runs, maybe at Savage's expense. In fact he might have been the one to take over the lead instead of Savage in 1988 when Hogan went on sabbatical. Flair could have eclipsed Savage as a villain (maybe even neccessitating an earlier face turn for Macho Man) although he would have had to navigate McMahon's much more strict rules on promos (a lot Flair's heel schtick is a way racey for Disney Land wrestling in the 80s WWE, I cant see him doing skits like he did with the dpartment strore manequin or the training bra on his WWE opposition the way he did to opponents in the NWA)

Actually, that might be a good follow up thread - If Flair had made the jump in 1985 who establishes themselves as the No 2 guy behind Hogan in the company... him or Savage....

 

[THTRobtaylor]

Summerslam 86 had been a big enough PPV success, but Vince was slightly disappointed that the 3 city concept had not taken off, he also felt that Wrestlemania 3 needed to be a mega-show with the biggest live crowd possible.

He liked the idea of the UK and began to run small by US standard shows there every 3 months, utilising the popularity of The British Bulldogs by having them team with British Legend "Big Daddy" Shirley Crabtree. Smith had teamed with him in his early career and the matches got record viewers on Saturday TV, enough to convince Vince to purchase a stake in the Crabtree operation. Daddy would not travel stateside, but WWF talent would come over to the UK periodically and Vince would take half the TV time for american based product.
Ratings grew steadily in the UK and the fresh influx of talent against the known names reinvigorated the UK scene for a time.

Meanwhile all was not well with both companies top stars... Ric Flair was annoyed at not getting the belt back from Von Erich and felt he could adequately play the face to Randy Savage. He was also less than enthused with being asked to put Michael Hayes over at Wrestlemania 3. Vince was beginning to sour on Flair as he began to phone in performances.

However in WCW and a Hollywood office a major bomb was about to detonate that changed the business forever. Hulk Hogan attended a Christmas party hosted by Arnold Scwarzenegger. Arnie offered Hogan roles in his next 2 movies, as the stalker turned renegade Captain Freedom in The Running Man and "Blaine" in Predator. Hogan read both scripts and was taken with the potential, he liked that Freedom was based on him and that ultimately the character would turn on the evil bosses and sacrifice himself to save the world.
The role of Blaine intruiged him as he was a tough guy with brains and although the part was small and would involve the character's death, he felt the two movies together would launch his career as a serious action star .BUT he knew only one man stood in his way... Ted Turner.

Turner met with Hogan on New Years Eve... He understood Hogan's desire to be in these two movies with Hollywood's most bankable star, he could see it being some good publicity. But it meant Hogan filming back to back for nearly a year. Turner argued that having a Hogan shaped hole for that length of time, especially with the McMahon raid would be impossible to fill.

Hogan was adamant he wanted to do the movies, he had already had to walk out of the WWWF once for Vince Senior's refusal and Verne had also blocked his movie ambitions, he was not going to be denied again and a tense stand-off began. Hogan later learned that Dusty Rhodes in particular was vocal to Turner about not letting this happen.

Arnie needed an answer and when Ted dug his heels in and held Hulk to his contract the roles were given to Jesse Ventura.

First of the movies to film was The Running Man and also on board was WWF alumnus Toru Tanaka, both got friendly with Arnie, who let slip how angry Hogan was at the whole situation and how disappointed he was not to get to work with Hulk. Ventura relayed this to Vince and went to him with a radical idea... Andre the Giant v Hulk Hogan at Wrestlemania with Arnie as the special guest referee, Jesse, who had recently been forced to retire knew he would not be allowed as a participant, but thought he would work as manager to Andre. Vince told Ventura he would be a more natural fit on colour and that Bobby Heenan was the man to manage a turn of Andre...more to the point there were 2 massive issues, 1 signing Hogan which would be nigh on impossible and 2, Andre would have to agree to lose to Hogan, a man he didn't know...Andre didn't have to do anything he didn't want.

Vince let through the grapevine that Flair was unhappy and Dusty took the info to Turner... Turner had met Flair several times, liked his style and felt he could be the man to lead WCW, he was less Hollywood and more "Wrasslin'" which he wanted. However Ted also saw the chance to pick up some extra stars and avoid the inevitable lawsuit for
Hogan to leave and the deal that was done included.

Hogan and Flair were both allowed to negotiate with the other company on the understanding that neither man would lose before they left and no further trades would take place outside of regular contracts for 3 years.

Ted was wholly unaware of Vince's mania plan and Flair had purposely been kept in the dark. Plans were made for Hogan to vacate the belt and for Flair to win the inevitable tournament. Michael Hayes was told his push was intact but that it would be Harley Race who put him over instead in a "retirement match".

WCW unveiled Ric Flair in early January just days after Hulk Hogan's departure. Onscreen it was stated that Hogan had suffered a bereavement and would be unable to defend his title within the 30 day period required. A feeble excuse, but fans bought into it and send cards of appreciation and condolence.

Flair seemed revitalised in WCW, finally a good guy he defeated Rick Martel, Larry Zybysko and Nick Bockwinkel in the tournament for the title. Bockwinkel was seen as Flair's equal in the ring and the two began wrestling 60 minute time limit draws throughout the country.

At the Main Event which took place in late January, Randy Savage won the title from Kerry Von Erich when Andre The Giant who was the guest referee turned heel and destroyed Von Erich, who had become frustrated at slow counts.

Savage was being managed by Bobby Heenan who promised a new signing that would shock the world. As Andre continued the attack he claimed no one could beat he and Steamboat and that anyone who tried would be destroyed.

"When It Come's Crashing Down..."

Hulk Hogan raced to the ring and cleared house of Andre and Savage, sending Heenan flying and ruining Savage's moment of triumph. As the crowd erupted and reacted to what they had seen Vince knew he had struck gold... The matches for Wrestlemania 3 were announced soon after, and it was a massive 15 match card to befit it's home of the
Pontiac.

Andre met with Hogan privately and the two hit it off immediately, the Giant knew his time was coming close to the end and felt Hogan was respectful enough for him to want to lose his unbeaten streak to him. Vince breathed a secret sigh of relief...

Wrestlemania 3 drew 90,000 to the Pontiac Silverdome...to see...

Double Main Event
WWF Title
Randy Savage (c) v Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat

Hulk Hogan v Andre The Giant (w/Arnold Schwarzenegger as Special Referee)

Michael Hayes v Harley Race in a Loser Leaves WWF match

WWF Tag Team Titles
The Road Warriors (Lex and Hawk, using the "freebird rule") (c) v The British Bulldogs

IC Title
Nikita Koloff (c) v Kerry Von Erich

"The Million Dollar Man" Ted DiBiase v Jake Roberts

Bret "Hitman" Hart v Arn Anderson (IC Title #1 Contender Tournament Semi)

Mr. Perfect v Terry Gordy (IC Title #1 Contender Tournament Semi)

The Warlord v Hercules

Rhythm & Blues (Honky Tonk Man & Jimmy Garvin) v Tex-Mex Connection (Kevin Von Erich & Tito Santana)

Mr. Perfect v Bret Hart (IC Contender Tournament Final)

The Midnight Rockers v The Rougeau Brothers

Jim "The Anvil" Neidhart vs Mike Rotundo

"The Natural" Butch Reed v Junkyard Dog

Piper's Pit featuring Ravishing Rick Rude & Jesse Ventura

Don Muraco & Bob Orton v The Killer Bees

Just days before the event, Vince's plans were rocked... Ricky Steamboat told Vince his wife was expecting their first child in the summer and he wanted to take the first few months away. This cost Steamboat his chance at the WWF title, though he took it with good grace and while Vince was angry he also understood that Steamboat would now only ever be an interim champion now Hogan was on board... Savage won at Wrestlemania 3 in a match that lived up to the hype and left fans breathless and Hogan defeated Andre by bodyslamming the Giant, a feat never managed before. Arnold fulfilled his role with aplomb, taking on several Heenan family members who tried to jump him after the decision. Vince considered this his triumph... he had delivered a Hollywood calibre show AND a wrestling main event for the ages...

As part of Andre's consideration for the favour he was allowed time away to star in "The Princess Bride" a soon to be classic movie. Hogan slotted into the role as the new "giant" of the WWF and bested Don Muraco and King Kong Bundy on the road. Steamboat took his agreed time out and Savage defended the title against Jake "The Snake" on The Main Event in a match that gained rave reviews for it's use of psychology and making the most of ad breaks.

In the IC title picture, Bret Hart had upset the then undefeated Mr. Perfect for the title in the tournament but despite his face demeanour, a challenge by Kerry Von Erich turned personal when the question of the greater family came up. For the first time Vince could see a Face v Face title feud working, based on the accrued legacies of the two families involved. He decided that the two would face on in a 5 match series, culminating at Wrestlemania 4. By placing the matches in key areas, 2 in Texas, 2 in Canada he guaranteed a hot crowd reaction. While he still had Kerry earmarked, Vince also could not argue with the sheer level of fan mail Bret received, mainly from young girls. While Kerry was the more natural "heartthrob", Bret was very much a "cool guy" and had an image that was starting to sell a lot of merch.

The British Bulldogs were still popular as ever, although Dynamite Kid was suffering major substance issues. Vince took a painful decision to release him for the good of his health, reasoning that Davey Boy Smith as a singles competitor, with a suitable repackage could not only hold the UK business but make an impact in the IC division at least.

Sadly Dynamite did not take the news well and died of a suspected overdose just 3 months later.

Wrestling was saddened but not shocked by Dynamite's passing, drug use had been rampant and Kid had been known as one of the most rampant of them all... Vince siezed on the opportunity and began random drug testing. Initially he intented it as a phantom threat, he knew the guys would use, he used... but if he could get it off the road and into their own time it would only benefit and would also weed out those less dedicated... Steroids were in the news with several athletes being caught in the first tests for them, the Seoul Olympics were in August and for the first time the concept of "performance enhancing drugs" was a major issue. Again, Vince used, as did they all, but he knew something was going to happen to change the winds... and while he couldn't formally stop people using a legal drug, he could distance himself from all lines of distribution and make clear that talent were on their own in sourcing them and if the laws changed, being caught...

In the WWF Mid Card, Road Warrior Animal had suffered a serious leg injury, leaving Lex and Hawk. Lex had learned from his stint as a Warrior and was close to busting loose with the fans, they liked his look, attitude but with Animal on the shelf there was no option but to keep him a Road Warrior for now. Michael Hayes was as over as ever, still appearing on chat shows and raising ruckus as he called it... He was clearly Vince's #2 face now but with Hogan on board Hayes knew he wasn't getting the title anytime soon.

Plans for Summerslam began to form, with Andre returning from filming a 3 man tag team main event was the way forward in Vince's head, a way to showcase his top stars in one match while allowing Andre the chance to ease himself back in after recent surgery as he still had plans for a rematch with Hogan. Davey Boy Smith was "on loan" in the UK, sporting a new muscular look and long hair. He was defeating the top British Heels such as Giant Haystacks and Kendo Nagasaki and when tragedy struck and an opponent of Big Daddy's died in the ring, he was the defacto star of the UK scene, just as Vince planned.

Summerslam took place in Texas that year, and it marked the 1-1 point of the IC title contest. Kerry avenged his earlier loss in Calgary by knocking Bret cold with the discus punch.

Michael Hayes defeated a returning, heel Roddy Piper in an "Iron Man Match" lasting 30 minutes.

Nikita Koloff fought Mr. Perfect to a time limit draw.

The Road Warriors finally lost the WWF World Tag Team titles to The Rockers when Lex turned on Hawk after being berated once too often for being inferior to Animal. the camera followed Luger to the back, where he symbolically washed his face of the Road Warrior make up in a fountain and looked at his reflection before declaring I am Lex Luger...

The Warlord defeated Junkyard Dog

Ravishing Rick Rude defeated Jake Roberts

The Big Bossman defeated Big John Studd in his final match

The Main Event saw Hogan, Ricky Steamboat and Davey Boy smith vs Randy Savage, Andre The Giant and Ted DiBiase.

Who do you think won that match?