What Brock and Shane need to work on..

[Y4J]

Now that we've seen the fight, what do you think these two should work on after seeing the fight?

First off, for Brock, I think even though he said Carwin was no threat (Just hypin the fight probably) I think he was a bit timid of Carwin's punches. He would punch and then cover instantly after he threw one as if he knew about the barrage coming. Which also brings to me that he was already thinking "rope a dope." If that was the case, great job.

I think Brock has pretty good hands, but now that he and everyone knows his chin is good, he should work more on his boxing game. So he can stand a little more. And then during his next fight, if he knew his top game won't do the trick, then he can take him down and put the deathclutch on his opponent lol.

As Carwin is concerned, I don't know about his cardio, I just think he got overexcited as anyone would. This is why I think Brock rope a doped.. Brock just fell to the ground and covered up and let Shane unload on him, and I don't care WHAT your cardio is, when you let go with everything you have like that, you're going to be tired.

But I think Carwin needs to not go after that finish anymore. Let his punches go more accurate and with more timing. Don't just hulk smash everything. Get him against the cage, and watch the placement of his punches and his hands when he swings.. Pacing himself can make him one bad dude. Even more bad than he is now.

 

[Dave]

I think both of these guys put on a great fight and whilst it may be easy saying what they should be doing better from the comfort of my own home, putting it into practice is very different in reality.

I thought that Lesnar could have done with being slightly more aggressive on his feet. He did look a little shy with his punches in the first round and Carwin was tagging him with punches at every turn. Lesnar could have quickened the pace though and pushed up on Carwin a little more to stop him from getting those punches away. However, he tried to play the long game and he paid for it in the first round. He was just trying to get in and get out without meting the fists of Carwin and that is just impossible. The only way to neutralize Carwin’s power is to get right on top of him and perhaps tie him up. That way, he can’t hit you with the haymakers that have been putting so many people’s lights out.

For me, I think Lesnar needs to work on being more aggressive in his striking and learn some Maui-Thai to work inside a clinch. I also think that he definitely needs to work on his work from the bottom. He was trying to pull guard on Carwin when Carwin was pounding on him and it simply wasn’t working. Learning some Maui-Thai may neutralize that threat in the future. However, he did look good on the top so I would keep working on being as dominant as possible from that position.

Carwin needs to learn how to wrestle better, it’s just that simple. We all knew that if that match went to ground with Lesnar on top, Carwin would undoubtedly be in a world of trouble and that proved to be the case. Brock’s wrestling is second to none and he just dominated him on the ground. He gave up a perfectly good mount to go for that Arm Triangle and at the time, I thought he was insane. Kudos to him though, he locked in the hold and Carwin tapped. If Carwin had been better on his back, maybe Brock wouldn’t have been able to boss him around so easily. A good MMA practitioner may have been able to take advantage of Brock letting the mount go but we’ll never know.

I suspect that both of these guys will learn a lot from this fight and they will both be better fighters because of it.

 

[jmt225]

Brock Lesnar... his stand-up, first and foremost. While Lesnar is HORRIBLE off his back as we saw last night, how many guys will truly be able to put him in that position? Not many, if any outside of Carwin, which is why Lesnar only needs to learn the basics there (ala putting someone in your guard). However, in every single fight he's in, he'll have no choice but to stand and bang every now and again. And right now Lesnar's stand-up is absolute shit; his head movement in particular. He doesn't need to necessarily learn how to strike, just how to defend himself from getting hit. Head movement and footwork is the key to that.

Shane Carwin... cardio is numero uno. As powerful as Carwin is, he will not be able to finish everyone in the first round. He needs to get himself to the point where he can fight for 15 minutes without getting completely winded. And that's more important now than ever since EVERY single opponent he faces from now on is going to enter that octagon with the mind-set that all they have to do to beat the guy is make it past the first round.

Also, Carwin needs to work on his submission defense. Like Lesnar... I doubt Carwin will be on the ground much throughout his career, but when the fight happens to make its way there, he will need to know how to defend submissions. He got submitted last night by basically a white belt, lol. Maybe Carwin gave that to Lesnar to keep himself from getting pounded on, who knows.. but if that was not the case, then it's vital for him to learn how to defend submissions from both off his back and when on top of someone.

 

[48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You]

Lesnar is so impressive with his takedowns and wrestling. I don't think that there is anyone who can beat him when he is the aggressor on the mat. He's lighting fast and strong. But Lesnar showed that he his striking game is suspect. He needs to learn to how to react when he gets caught with a punch, first and foremost. He was spinning around and completely disorganized when Carwin was knocking him around the cage. I would lose to see Lesnar be more aggressive at the start of the fight. He could bum rush most guys and either clock them from the get-go or take them down and smother them. He does remind me, somewhat, of a python. He's not a lethal striker, but when he has you, he is methodical and just slowly and precisely tightens his grip. Every breath his opponent takes is smaller than the one previous.

Carwin was very obviously dog-tired after the first. He needs to learn to pace himself and be more selective with his attacks. He resembled a white Kimbo Slice, kind of, in the way that he was wildly punching. But hey, it almost worked.

 

[Y4J]

Brock Lesnar... his stand-up, first and foremost. While Lesnar is HORRIBLE off his back as we saw last night, how many guys will truly be able to put him in that position? Not many, if any outside of Carwin, which is why Lesnar only needs to learn the basics there (ala putting someone in your guard). However, in every single fight he's in, he'll have no choice but to stand and bang every now and again. And right now Lesnar's stand-up is absolute shit; his head movement in particular. He doesn't need to necessarily learn how to strike, just how to defend himself from getting hit. Head movement and footwork is the key to that.

Shane Carwin... cardio is numero uno. As powerful as Carwin is, he will not be able to finish everyone in the first round. He needs to get himself to the point where he can fight for 15 minutes without getting completely winded. And that's more important now than ever since EVERY single opponent he faces from now on is going to enter that octagon with the mind-set that all they have to do to beat the guy is make it past the first round.

Also, Carwin needs to work on his submission defense. Like Lesnar... I doubt Carwin will be on the ground much throughout his career, but when the fight happens to make its way there, he will need to know how to defend submissions. He got submitted last night by basically a white belt, lol. Maybe Carwin gave that to Lesnar to keep himself from getting pounded on, who knows.. but if that was not the case, then it's vital for him to learn how to defend submissions from both off his back and when on top of someone.

I don't think his stand up shit, rather than he was timid in this fight. He felt the first punch before the first take down attempt and got too defensive. I agree his stand up DEFENSE needs work, but we've seen him catch guys up top. Mir, Crazy Horse, Couture. But I agree with head movement and so forth.

The way Carwin was swinging at him against the cage, I think Brock had no choice but to defend. How would you defend against that? It may not be he's bad on his back, rather if he tried something with Shane swinging for the fences, it could have been KO time. When the punching stopped, Brock went from his back to his feet which was impressive as well.

I completely agree that Brock needs to really work on defense though. I have a feeling the way Brock is and how hard on himself he can get, he'll do a ton of boxing in his training.

I think when Brock went down, if Carwin went into guard and just ground pounded him like Brock did to Mir II, then he could have been awesome. He talked about his wrestling being great like Brock's so he should have proved it.

I see Carwin pacing his next fight, and Brock boxing more. Brock knows he can take damage, and Carwin knows he can't lay it all out, so these two men are going to be DANGEROUS in their next fights.

I see Carwin facing the loser of Nelson/JDS.

 

[ITurnGirlsGay]

Personally, I think that Brock's weaknesses were exploited pretty heavily last night. Brock showed us that if he can't use his wrestling there are some MAJOR holes in his game. I've been of the opinion, for some time now, that Brock will be exploited. Against guys who can wrestle Brock hasn't looked that good. I don't see Lesnar getting past Velasquez. Velasquez is a better wrestler than Brock, has cardio for days, can obviously take a shot MUCH better than Couture, and has superior stand up. The only thing Velasquez is giving up is size. Velasquez just needs to stuff the take down in this fight. He doesn't need to out-wrestle Brock. His stand-up will be more than adequate to win the fight on the feet. Plus, we don't really know how Brock is going to look in the championship rounds. I still say Lesnar is one-trick pony who's getting by on sheer size rather than skill-set.

 

[Via Armbar]

Brock Lesnar... his stand-up, first and foremost. While Lesnar is HORRIBLE off his back as we saw last night, how many guys will truly be able to put him in that position?

I'm going to have to disagree with this actually. I'm not sure if you believe the fight should have been stopped or not, but I cannot seem to understand how people couldn't see that he WAS defending. Every time that Rosenthal told him to work or defend, he did. Of all the huge shots that Carwin through once Brock was down, only a couple landed flush. The strongest blow that Lesnar took was the elbow which ended up cutting him open. At no time was Brock out or unresponsive. Sure, I could see how some people thought it would have been stopped. After watching the fight numerous times though, people should be able to see why it wasn't. Kudos to Rosenthal. My point is, Brock is not horrible off of his back. Once he hit the ground he had a game plan in mind and stuck to it. Sure it was risky as all hell, but it worked. Carwin tired out and Brock felt safe going in to the second round. That shows great confidence in his skills off of his back.

Anyway, if there is one thing that Lesnar needs to work on is his stand up. Even though we still don't know how it compares to guys like Cain because of the power that Carwin has. I can guarantee that Cain doesn't hit as hard as Shane. While JDS may be the better boxer overall, Carwin still has the edge on power. How would either of those men reacted to catching an uppercut to the jaw? That's why it is hard to put Brock's stand up in perspective. Either way, it still needs work. He is going to have to learn how to move that giant body around and maneuver his block head. He has massive shoulders meaning that it is easier for a good striker to get inside and land blows. If he can manage to work some defense and more effective striking rather than pure power shots, he should be good to go.

Carwin's biggest weakness is pretty damn obvious at this point. No, it isn't his cardio. Anyone that were to throw punches like that with such force and speed would have gassed out. He was blowing his load trying to finish Lesnar and came up short. That isn't a sign of bad cardio; it's a sign of bad fight IQ. Fight IQ is an odd tangible; you cannot teach it and it cannot be learned through anything but experience and natural instinct. The second he felt his arms tiring and realized that Brock isn't going to sleep he should have conserved what he had left. He can blame it all on the referee or whomever he'd like but that's like blaming a loss on the judges. In the end, it's up to you. If he can learn these sort of aspects to the overall game, he will be an absolute monster in the division.

 

[ITurnGirlsGay]

I'm going to have to disagree with this actually. I'm not sure if you believe the fight should have been stopped or not, but I cannot seem to understand how people couldn't see that he WAS defending. Every time that Rosenthal told him to work or defend, he did. Of all the huge shots that Carwin through once Brock was down, only a couple landed flush. The strongest blow that Lesnar took was the elbow which ended up cutting him open. At no time was Brock out or unresponsive. Sure, I could see how some people thought it would have been stopped. After watching the fight numerous times though, people should be able to see why it wasn't. Kudos to Rosenthal. My point is, Brock is not horrible off of his back. Once he hit the ground he had a game plan in mind and stuck to it. Sure it was risky as all hell, but it worked. Carwin tired out and Brock felt safe going in to the second round. That shows great confidence in his skills off of his back.

Anyway, if there is one thing that Lesnar needs to work on is his stand up. Even though we still don't know how it compares to guys like Cain because of the power that Carwin has. I can guarantee that Cain doesn't hit as hard as Shane. While JDS may be the better boxer overall, Carwin still has the edge on power. How would either of those men reacted to catching an uppercut to the jaw? That's why it is hard to put Brock's stand up in perspective. Either way, it still needs work. He is going to have to learn how to move that giant body around and maneuver his block head. He has massive shoulders meaning that it is easier for a good striker to get inside and land blows. If he can manage to work some defense and more effective striking rather than pure power shots, he should be good to go.

Carwin's biggest weakness is pretty damn obvious at this point. No, it isn't his cardio. Anyone that were to throw punches like that with such force and speed would have gassed out. He was blowing his load trying to finish Lesnar and came up short. That isn't a sign of bad cardio; it's a sign of bad fight IQ. Fight IQ is an odd tangible; you cannot teach it and it cannot be learned through anything but experience and natural instinct. The second he felt his arms tiring and realized that Brock isn't going to sleep he should have conserved what he had left. He can blame it all on the referee or whomever he'd like but that's like blaming a loss on the judges. In the end, it's up to you. If he can learn these sort of aspects to the overall game, he will be an absolute monster in the division.

I completely agree that it shouldn't have been stopped. Rosenthal was talking to Brock the entire time and even though Brock couldn't do much, his turtling up defense was intelligently defending himself. Especially since Rosenthal could clearly see that the majority of Carwin's shots weren't hitting much more than Lesnar's hands. That being said, I don't think Lesnar has a very high fight IQ. This is why I believe that he will lose to Velasquez.

Cain, to me, has always shown a wide array of offensive Muay Thai striking capability far beyond what the years he has been training for suggests he should have. He mixes kicks and punches well and is fond of changing levels mid combination. It also suggests, to me, a high fight IQ. Couple that with his devastating wrestling and I think we've got one hell of a fighter on our hands. Plus, for a heavyweight, his speed is pretty damn good. Not to mention his out of this world cardio.

Brock, on the other hand, is a very one dimensional fighter. His stand-up is probably the worst in the division. The majority of his strengths come from his absurdly large size and the surface area of his hands. His technical prowess on the feet is extremely poor and I've never seen Lesnar effectively mix it up on the feet. His MMA wrestling is horrible. It's a bulrush, or a bulrush after a punch. If you watch most of Lesnar's fights, he does the exact same thing Carwin did on the ground against Lesnar, wild punches that aren't aimed.

 

[Y4J]

I completely agree that it shouldn't have been stopped. Rosenthal was talking to Brock the entire time and even though Brock couldn't do much, his turtling up defense was intelligently defending himself. Especially since Rosenthal could clearly see that the majority of Carwin's shots weren't hitting much more than Lesnar's hands. That being said, I don't think Lesnar has a very high fight IQ. This is why I believe that he will lose to Velasquez.

Cain, to me, has always shown a wide array of offensive Muay Thai striking capability far beyond what the years he has been training for suggests he should have. He mixes kicks and punches well and is fond of changing levels mid combination. It also suggests, to me, a high fight IQ. Couple that with his devastating wrestling and I think we've got one hell of a fighter on our hands. Plus, for a heavyweight, his speed is pretty damn good. Not to mention his out of this world cardio.

Brock, on the other hand, is a very one dimensional fighter. His stand-up is probably the worst in the division. The majority of his strengths come from his absurdly large size and the surface area of his hands. His technical prowess on the feet is extremely poor and I've never seen Lesnar effectively mix it up on the feet. His MMA wrestling is horrible. It's a bulrush, or a bulrush after a punch. If you watch most of Lesnar's fights, he does the exact same thing Carwin did on the ground against Lesnar, wild punches that aren't aimed.

I'm really starting to think you just don't like Lesnar that much and it's clouding a lot of your reasoning.. I mean, there is nothing wrong with you not liking Brock, but you basically are treating Brock as some giant oaf that's just swinging his arms and throwing people down.

His strength has helped him a GREAT deal, but his wrestling has gotten him to where he is now. Wrestlers take down, keep you down and control you on the ground. That's wrestling. People think Brock is strong and big and think that's the sole reason his wrestling is good. It make it EASIER, but the guy is a great wrestler nevertheless.

Heath Herring was put on the ground and Brock toyed with him because yes his strength, but his superior wrestling kept him down. Watch his back control, everytime Heath tried to counter or get up, Brock kept him down. Brock knows how to use his strength and how to control someone elses body to keep them down.

And in terms of Brock not knowing what he's doing, look at the couture fight and the trip take down he did. Brock is aware of his wrestling.

In the recent fight, watch how Brock left full mount to get the choke in. Even the Gracies said he did a great transition by not swinging his legs out to get caught in the other guys legs and so forth.

The way he had Mir on the ground in the first round on the second fight was very smart. His first fight was wild. His second fight he put him in a half guard, trapped the arm, and slowly just pounded him. That isn't wild. That's what you're suppose to do.

And you saying Cain's wrestling is better than Brock is just an opinion. Infact, I think Brock's track record in MMA and outside of it proves that he may be better.

And just as said before by Via Armbar. Cain is smaller and less powerful than Shane. If anything, Brock will take down, and ground and pound. Sure Cain may be a better boxer than Shane, but Brock has a great chin, and when Cain fought Ben Roth, Cain couldn't knock him out. If Brock can eat Shane's punches, he can eat some of Cains, and Brock will resort to taking him down to the mat.

Brock needs a LOT of work. It's true. The man has 6 fights under him.. He needs to work on his top game, and perhaps a bit more off his back. But the guy isn't just some oaf caveman swinging his arms and throwing people down. He's doing a great job. Give it time. But give credit where credits due.

 

[ITurnGirlsGay]

And you saying Cain's wrestling is better than Brock is just an opinion. Infact, I think Brock's track record in MMA and outside of it proves that he may be better.

And just as said before by Via Armbar. Cain is smaller and less powerful than Shane. If anything, Brock will take down, and ground and pound. Sure Cain may be a better boxer than Shane, but Brock has a great chin, and when Cain fought Ben Roth, Cain couldn't knock him out. If Brock can eat Shane's punches, he can eat some of Cains, and Brock will resort to taking him down to the mat.

Brock needs a LOT of work. It's true. The man has 6 fights under him.. He needs to work on his top game, and perhaps a bit more off his back. But the guy isn't just some oaf caveman swinging his arms and throwing people down. He's doing a great job. Give it time. But give credit where credits due.

First off, I don't dislike Lesnar. When I say that Lesnar isn't that good, I'm saying that as a comparison to other fighters. Let's be real, you and I BOTH know that if Lesnar weren't the mountain of a man that he is, and he were competing at say MW or LHW, his skill set, RIGHT NOW, wouldn't be good enough to be champ.

Watch the 0:30 mark of the Carwin/Lesnar fight. Lesnar charged forward with no setup in sight and rushed Carwin against the cage, where Carwin was able to get a wizzer on his left side. In the second round of the Randy fight there was a point where Lesnar waded in with all of his speed and looked to press against Randy and he was shrugged off instantly. Mir couldn't wrestle is way out of a wet paper sack, so it isn't surprising that Lesnar was able to turn him into a pretzel once it hit the mat.

I'm not saying Lesnar isn't a great wrestler, he is. Dominant wrestling in MMA between two accomplished wrestlers is almost unheard of and going 1/5 on takedown attempts is actually good. The problem is, Lesnar could be even more effective with his wrestling if pumped a jab, changed levels and dropped down for a double. In six fights we haven't seen Lesnar really show much versatility with his wrestling and even though I'm sure he'll fix that in due time, Cain can string together 2-3 piece combinations and before you know it he's already deep in a takedown.

People seem to forget that. You want me to give credit where credit is due, fine, I'll give you credit that he's made improvements, both as an individual, and as fighter. Now, on that same token, I want you to realize that he's VERY green, not extremely skilled, and if he didn't have his size, he'd be getting tooled by fighters with a better skill set.

Also, how does Brock's track record in and out of the octagon prove that he's a better wrestler than Cain? Brock has a national championsip, sure. He also wrestled during a fairly weak period in NCAA wrestling. The only competition Brock had was a man by the name of Stephen Neal. You might remember him from such moments are winning Super Bowl's XXXVI, XXXVIII, and XXXIX.

Velasquez, on the other hand, was the number 3 ranked HW during one of the best periods in college wrestling. The people ranked above him? Cole Konrad, who trains at MMMA with Brock and helps him get ready for matches. Konrad won the National Championship by beating Velasquez. The funny thing is, Konrad couldn't beat Velasquez, The judges gave him a decision victory which many people, including myself, disagreed with. On a side note, the only other time they wrestled, Cain whooped that ass.

The other person ranked ahead of Velasquez? Steve Mocco. Steve Mocco represented the U.S. for wrestling in Beijing. Mocco was so big that he had to cut weight to make 285. Mocco, as well, had two national titles.

Bobby Lashley couldnt take down Cain in multiple sparring matches.Cain is currently training with Dan Cormier and Mark Ellis the 2010 NCAA 285 Champion. His wrestling will be solid for Lesnar.