Were you a fan of NWA's product? (wrasslin')

[Ubermensch]

Now I admit, I am not old enough to vividly remember NWA being televised on TBS. After I became an avid fan I would talk my grandpa into raiding nearby video rental stores for any and all wrestling PPV tapes they had to rent. So my opinion is based on vintage PPVs from the NWA and early WCW days, against WWF when Coliseum Home Video handled them.

Specifically what I am referencing is the late 80's.

My opinion is based on what I remember, with what I watch on youtube and have seen when I had the WWE channel.

When I was younger, side by side the WWF looked more appealing with more colorful characters and better production.

However, looking back I genuinely believe that the NWA ran better storylines and had more realistic characters closer to what you seen on TV now. In fact, I would wager the late 80's NWA product is more realistic than the current WWE. Now obviously the WCW and WWF got more cartoonish with time as wrestling progressed into the mid 90s, and then the WWE went edgier with the Attitude era.

Part of it may be a bias on my end having grown up in Alabama, I would say the NWA and later the WCW seemed more relevant to southern fans.

The Horsemen versus Rhodes, Magnum TA, and others seemed like more realistic characters than Hogan versus large guy after large guy. The difference was White Collar vs Blue Collar where in Hogan's feud you had a guy taking super hero baby face angles against evil mammoths.

One example I would say that illustrates my point is how both promotions handled their "soviet" wrestlers. I would wager that Nikolai Volkoff was far more cartoonish in his feud with Hogan versus Nikita Koloff's feud with Flair in NWA.

 

[boozinjedi]

You brought up many good points,
they had a better appeal on good looks,
BUT for most of the time the NWA had better technical matches.

 

[DexVendetta88]

I'm not old enough as well to remember the heyday of the NWA, but in recent years I have watched a lot of the old school NWA events. It was as clear as day when I compared both the WWE and the NWA. WWE was as many have said "cartoonish" while the NWA focused more on technical skills, and their storylines were in a sense relatable to us the fans. Plus the NWA had far more brutal, and longer matches (even lasting to a time limit draw) than the WWE which definitely had me sold on the NWA. I ask a lot of my co-workers who were old enough to remember the NWA glory days, and from what they tell me I really did miss out on a lot.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

The NWA wasn't about character development or being entertaining. It was about providing a product that looked real and blue collar, which is what they accomplished.

I was a HUGE fan of this era in wrestling. The NWA on TBS was something I looked forward to every Saturday night at 6:05 EST. Flair come out and told the world how it was and was so pompous and sneaky that it was easy to hate him, but it was also cool to like him because he was cool.

You had Dusty Rhodes, the son of a plumber who earned his keep through hard work, dedication. Kayfabe wise, that is.

I also am fond of the simple tactic of having a foreigner come in and hate America and get booed out of the building. Being Russian or Arabic meant instant heat with the fans. And anyone who was American could earn a solid push by beating the foreigner.

I miss those days.

 

[jimivy]

This is a great thread. I am old enough to remember the NWA, UWF, AWA, and WCCW days like it was yesterday. I would watch and wait for the Saturday morning NWA show to get updates on what was going on during the summers of the Great American Bash. I would watch Gordon Solie Pro Wrestling Weekly show late on tv to get the updates on all the feds except WWF since they didn't allow Gordon to talk about them.

This is not a bashing of WWE or a fanboy of TNA talking but just stating that the story lines we are seeing today in TNA are very similar to the old days. You would see a main event like last week with Magus and AJ take place just like then. The Horsemen would always interfere in matches when their champ was in a match. We would see the Freebirds beat down the Von Erichs in many no DQ matches. We would have story lines that would take 6-12 months to come to a head at either Starcade or the main event at Texas Stadium. My truth is that many fans would comeback if they felt that blue collar vs white collar would come back. TNA is definitely not perfect and they are trying something to bring back wrestling not entertainment.

Great Thread sir. I am going to get my old wrestling mags out right now and relive some of the classic days of wrestling.

 

[closet_fan]

I was initially a WWF fan only because when we didn't have cable, Saturday Night's Main Event and Superstars were all I could watch. It was good. I loved it. But when my dad bought me some wrestling magazines about other territories, I was like "I wanna see THESE guys!!!!"

We ended up, finally, getting cable in like 87-88 and I was hooked. Like Lariat, 6:05pm (TED TURNER TIME) I'd be parked in front of the tv. It looked bush league only because they did a lot of the show in studio, which could only seat around 20-30 people. But they still had good matches, plus they showed a lot of matches taped from other venues.

It seemed very real. The 4 Horsemen taping themselves ambushing Rhodes in the studio parking lot. They did a lot of things outside the box that the WWF didn't do. The characters might seem plain compared to what the WWF had, but I liked it that way because it was something different. They didn't force a gimmick to try and put someone over. And the gimmicks they did have worked. Nikita Koloff, etc. All the heels got heat organically.

You thought Ricky Steamboat had a great match against Savage at WM3, look at his time in the NWA. All his matches against Flair were instant classics.

But that's just the way it was. Steamboat worked in the NWA, but couldn't push himself any farther then midcard in the WWF.

Then when the WWF brought NWA guys over like Flair and Rhodes, I thought less of the WWF at the time. These were good, solid workers. Thank God Vince didn't ruin Rhodes' career by making him wear that stupid polka dot outfit.

 

[Matty~!]

The first wrestling I remember seeing was early 1990's WCW when it first aired on terrestrial TV here in the UK so basically the remnants of Jim Crockett Promotions (commonly known as the NWA) and it hooked me from early on with the likes of Sting, Pillman, Vader, Austin, Cactus etc. Even as a kid I remember being just as into the heels as I was faces, simply because most of them seemed like bad ass dudes.

To answer the question though once tape trading in the UK really took off in the early 2000's through trying to track down early 90's WCW. I stumbled upon Jim Crockett Promotions and ended up with most big PPV's and home release stuff they did from the time period.

Flair was just so stellar in the ring Dusty was the man on the mic and despite the looks could actually go for the most part. Not to mention the rest of the Horsemen, Arn being one of the best talkers for my money the business has ever seen, Tully getting great matches out of not great workers. Midnight Express and Rock N Roll Express tearing it up and pretty much every opportunity they could.

Like people have pointed out for the most part certainly between 83 - 86 the characters were believable and the matches were great in ring, great brawls, great promos and it was just plain fun to watch.

The NWA wasn't about character development or being entertaining. It was about providing a product that looked real and blue collar, which is what they accomplished.

That's a total misconception about the era how can you say wasn't about entertaining? what's the point of putting on the show then? It's there to entertain, just not there to entertain in the larger than life way McMahon was going about it at the time. It's there to entertain a different demographic of fan.

The difference was White Collar vs Blue Collar where in Hogan's feud you had a guy taking super hero baby face angles against evil mammoths.

I take the point you are making however, this is really no different how Dusty booked himself to be a superman in the dying days of JCP before the Turner buyout and Dusty heading out the door.

[YOUTUBE]FCdRxRH0TaA[/YOUTUBE]

The above clip is the trailer for a very good documentary piece that was done last year on the whole of Jim Crockett promotions from when Jim Crockett Sr initially ran into when Jim Crockett Jr took over, to how Ted Turner took over in the end. Well worth picking up.

 

[lowandmighty]

I was a fan of the NWA "wrasslin" for sure. I disagree that it wasn't about entertainment as one poster wrote, of course it was about entertainment, thats what pro wrestling has always been about.

I loved the strip battle royals the women wrestlers used to have, they never went all the way but still damn entertaining to me.

 

[Ubermensch]

I think most older fans who have seen what both sides were doing side by side back then would agree that the NWA was a superior product.

While they were under budget compared to WWF. There were some good promos that were cut. The Horsemen attacking Rhodes at the gas pump was a great spot. Baby Doll riding off on a horse at Rhodes' ranch after losing the valet match to Tully was good as well.

Going back to the Russian angles that both feds ran. What I enjoyed about that was Flair didn't have to come out dawned in Red White and Blue to get a pop when he wrestled Nikita.

I liked the outside stadium matches they had as well. Weather permitted, this would be a good idea today.

Magnum TA had that whole Tom Selleck look going on, great move set for a guy his size, and a good look. I think most people will look back at Magnum and see is bar one of the most tragic falling in the sport.

What I have always respected about Flair is willingness to put others over in the sport. Flair's matches with Sting in the late 80's were great. These guys were doing 45 and hour long matches to draws. We herald the iron man match between HBK and Hart as phenomenal but these were be doing far before then with equally great performers. Sting and the Road Warriors were a great capture for young kids watching the show.

Luger was another guy that made his name in the NWA. I have never thought Luger was face of the company material, but certainly a main event guy.

Going back to Steamboat, he had great work with Savage, but his run in the NWA was better. His work with Flair where Steamboat was shown hanging out with his family while Flair was shown drinking whiskey with a different woman was classic.

 

[FlairFan2003]

The biggest difference was in presentation, the WWE back then marketed almost exclusively to kids and by extension was cartoonish and childish with usually short, nothing special matches. The NWA had it's share of comedy acts (Boogie Woogie Man Jimmy Valiant) and kid friendly heroes (Rock & Roll Express) but they also had more adult oriented characters and much more adult oriented storylines. Where WWE offered a major story about whether Bobby Heenan took Matilda, the British Bulldogs mascot, Dusty Rhodes and Magnum TA ambushed The Midnight Express in the locker room, beat up Jim Cornette, and tied him by the neck to the back of Dusty's pick up, attempting to drag him down the parking lot in retaliation for beating up Dusty's valet Baby Doll with a tennis racket. Where as it was hinted that maybe Randy Savage was controlling with Liz, Tully Blanchard physically beat his girlfriend up after accusing her of sleeping with his nemesis. Some of the brawls and beat downs were legendary, especially the brutal locker room/outside the ring beatings The Four Horsemen delivered to Rhodes (parking lot baseball attack), Lex Luger (limo beating), and The Rock & Roll Express (locker room beat down breaking Morton's nose by bashing his head repeatedly into the concrete floor). There was nothing in wrestling by a heel group even approaching this level of violence until the early days of the NWO angle.

The matches were far more realistic In the NWA, and they offered a wide variety, not just the hardcore specialty style popularized by ECW in the 90s. NWA Steel Cage matches were nasty, bloody, brutal affairs that were the basis for WWE's creation of Hell In A Cell in the late 90s, the NWA also did Bullrope and Chain Matches, fairly brutal confrontations, but also offered great technical wrestling with the likes of Barry Whyndam and Ric Flair. Top guys also had to be versatile, Magnum TA had to be able to wrestle a 60 minute clinic vs Flair and be just as good in a No Holds Barred I Quit Cage Match vs Tully Blanchard, Flair had to wrestle 60 and 90 minute marathons, Steel Cage Matches, No DQ Matches, and fought a varied list of opponents such as muscled body builders like Luger & LOD, crazy, bloody brawlers like Stan Hansen & Terry Funk, cruiserweight style fast paced, smaller wrestlers like Ricky Morton, as well as his oft referenced classic standard matches vs Steamboat and Whyndam. In the NWA the top guys had to be able to really go in the rings vs a wide range of opponents and wrestle several gimmicks. The skill level and at times brutality of NWA matches was way better than WWE.

WWE did offer better production values for it's TV product. However, having watched them both back in the 80s, I was much more entertained by the NWA on a regular basis than WWE.

 

[FlairFan2003]

Also, Vince borrowed heavily from Crockett era NWA. The Britiish Bulldogs-Hart Foundation/Jimmy Hart storyline was a take off on the already successful Rock & Roll Express vs Midnite Express/Jim Cornette alngle.

Demolition obviously was a LOD knock off.

The BobbY Heenan Family as a heel faction was a take off on The Four Horsemen. Ted DiBiase's Million Doillar Man Gimmick was based in part on Ric Flair.

Vince also relied heavily on Roddy Piper and Steamboat, both top NWA stars (of course he took Hogan & Henning from the AWA, DiBiase from Mid South, Savage was mid south area guy, etc)

 

[justtxyank]

Also, Vince borrowed heavily from Crockett era NWA. The Britiish Bulldogs-Hart Foundation/Jimmy Hart storyline was a take off on the already successful Rock & Roll Express vs Midnite Express/Jim Cornette alngle.

Demolition obviously was a LOD knock off.

The BobbY Heenan Family as a heel faction was a take off on The Four Horsemen. Ted DiBiase's Million Doillar Man Gimmick was based in part on Ric Flair.

Vince also relied heavily on Roddy Piper and Steamboat, both top NWA stars (of course he took Hogan & Henning from the AWA, DiBiase from Mid South, Savage was mid south area guy, etc)

Agree with your points generally, but specifically on The Heenan Family, that stable had existed for years prior the Horsemen being created. The original Horsemen were formed in 85 or 86 and Heenan had been doing the Heenan Family since the 70s.

To answer the thread question, yes, I much preferred the NWA product. I prefer wrestling to be presented at least at some level as being realistic. I tend to dislike ridiculous characters or fake looking wrestling. Believability is important for me.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

In the UK they didn't show it in the 80's you had World of Sport with the WWF every fourth Saturday so that was my initial way in, mid-late 80's though you had toys appear for Ric Flair, Lex Luger etc so I guess seeing those (although I was too old for toys nearly) was my first introduction to many of the names and likenesses.

On a trip to the US my uncle had shed loads of tapes (and took us to Mania V) and I finally got to see the NWA and it became a highlight of every trip watching both the WWF and NWA/early WCW shows.

I always found the WWF more fun, but really think I enjoyed watching the NWA/WCW stuff slightly more (and even the GWF when that was on) as it was the moves, the art form that interested me a bit more than the Hulkamania/Sports Entertainment vibe. I liked that guys like Terry Funk were recognisable from films I had seen and "violent", I liked that Sting was a better, more agile alternative to Warrior and the Freebirds were always a favourite to watch, again I recognised them immediately from Highlander, but Hayes in particular was someone I loved watching as much as the Bulldogs and Rockers.

It wasn't perfect however and it soon died it's death for me when it became clear that they were starting to just be "rip off" rather than different. Ric Flair left during my last trip of that era and it showed that they were struggling by then...and when I got home they were showing Worldwide at midnight on a Saturday, for all the good new talent they picked up they also did some utter shite... Arachniman, the Taylor Made Man (complete with "Eye of the Tiger" rip off music and DiBiase halloween costume), the endless escapades of the Zzzzzz Man all started to turn me off them. The quality seemed poorer with only a few guys like Rude, Austin and Pillman really standing out as exciting. For every moment of interest, like Robbie V in the light heavy tourney or Scott Steiner winning the TV title there was utter dross like Scotty Flamingo, The search for Cactus Jack and Oz... it was like they took the better product and made it "bush league" before I even knew what that meant. We now know it was down to a succession of poor managers but then the quality just nosedived and as I was starting to want to learn and wrestle myself by then I was REALLY looking.

I guess I wish I'd seen a little more of the pre-WCW stuff live but it just wasn't on the cards here at that time. Looking at it now I still enjoy "Wrasslin'", but am not sure I'd sit through a whole PPV of it now... I guess Vince won the battle for my soul...

 

[Waylon Mercy]

As a teenager in the eighties, I recall wrestling really taking off with the advent of cable tv. There was a plethora of wrestling programming on, up and down the dial. One channel would feature the AWA, while another would show local programming from Memphis. Up the dial was World Class Championship Wrestling, where a thrilling feud erupted between the Von Erich Family and the Freebirds. Of all the choices, though, I was glued to NWA Wrestling from Atlanta, Georgia on WTBS. Every Saturday evening I would sit transfixed by the likes of Mad Dog Buzz Sawyer (to this day arguably one of the meanest, most sadistic wrestlers ever), Magnum TA, Nikolai Volkoff, Barry Wyndham, Tommy "Wildfire" Rich, and of course the incomparable 4 Horsemen. These guys managed to create a wrestling universe out of a tiny tv studio, with about 40 people in attendance. They operated on a shoe string budget, yet delivered amazing feuds, incredible promos, and backstage stunts. There was a top-tier of performers, but the undercard was at an almost equal level in terms of entertainment and quality. The show was emceed by a tiny, mousey looking guy named Gordon Solie. He had a nasally pitch, yet he added so much to the environment. He was a walking encyclopedia of wrestling moves, on top of fearlessly holding the microphone up to some raging lunatic (usually Ric Flair) during interviews. The clear-cut hero of the show was Magnum TA, and to this day I often wonder how he would have ranked in terms of being one of the true giants of the industry. He was poised for a huge push before his career was cut short from a near-tragic car wreck. Would he have been the salvation that kept the NWA afloat? Would he have been their answer to the WWF's Hulk Hogan? We will never know these answers, but it is worth speculating. The other thing the NWA truly had going for it was that their top dog, Ric Flair, was willing and ready to do the job in terms of pushing young talent. Without Flair, there would have been no Sting. In the dying days of the NWA (pre-WCW), there was no feud hotter than that between Flair and Sting. Anyhow, the eighties were truly a magical time to be a wrestling fan, as Vince hadn't yet swallowed up the territories. There was plenty of room with cable tv to air wrestling shows from multiple markets. The magic of it all was that it was so simple - it was all about the wrestling, at the very heart of it!!! There was no need for huge pyrotechnics, elaborate stage sets, heavy scripts, or anything like that. Much of it was improvised, and it gave the viewer (me, at least) a sense of excitement over what could possibly happen next. Anyhow, these are but a few of my recollections regarding the old NWA shows.

 

[waylon p]

Well, first off, when I think of NWA Wrestling in the eighties, I am not always thinking of Atlanta. NWA had always been a number of territories, including my favorites...WCCW in Texas, and Mid-South Wrestling, the best wrestling television going in the late 70's and most of the Eighties.

Mid-South gave us all kinds of talent. Paul Orndorf. Terry Taylor. Junkyard Dog. Ernie Ladd. Ted Dibiase. Jim Duggan. King kong Bundy. Jim Ross. The list goes on. The whole elite heel stable idea was being used by Mid-south back in the early 70's when I first tuned in. I doubt the Rat Pack was the very first stable of its kind, but it was clearly the template for the Four Horseman and many other such stables.

But to answer the salient question. During the time period you reference, NWA on TBS and WWF were producing completely different products. I was a wrestling fan, so I liked wrestling. Even WWF. But I had no illusions that what they were cranking out was Rasslin'. The NWA was giving the wrestling fan in me what it wanted. So was AWA. WWF was giving the cartoon fan in me what IT wanted. Two different things entirely.

 

[Ubermensch]

I know the NWA not viable competition against the WWF. But how did the NWA compete and stack up against the AWA? If I remember correctly, the NWA was on TBS and AWA was on ESPN. I know the AWA fell out of the limelight faster.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

The AWA suffered due to Verne's not embracing what the other two were doing in anyway.

While the NWA wasn't the WWF in terms of presentation, they were beginning to get with what Vince was trying to do in creating stars, bringing music more into play etc. The NWA had the edge in terms of storylines, and as mentioned above, Vince was not averse to borrowing from time to time... It's harsh to say the Harts/Bulldogs was based off them though, it was basically their old Stampede feud reheated.

It's also harsh to say that Vince stole things like Demolition and the "Million Dollar Man" face painted teams were not new, you could perhaps see Demolition as an evolution of the idea of the Road Warriors rather than a knock off as they were not "wrecking balls" in the same way, they had precision that the Road Warriors didn't. As for DiBiase, the story is famous that Vince basically gave him "himself" as a gimmick - The Million Dollar Man is Mr. McMahon 10 years early for the 80's just with a different guy playing him. He didn't steal that from Flair...

Verne was intent on staying "old school" and rather than creating new stars he kept the belt on Bockwinkel for a crazy amount of time. A lot of talent simply didn't go there who may have done if they'd have known they had a shot there and those who were sick of it moved on like Hall and Hennig. Imagine if Verne HAD been more open to the bigger guys, someone like Bam Bam Bigelow could have made a big name there and helped them in 87 rather than wasting a run for Vince.. but it was too little too late. The better comparisons are the UWF and WCCW... both these were of the same level as the NWA for a time, but Fritz suffered the same mental block as Verne did about his boys... and Bill Watt's never recovered from the talent raid Vince made in 87 taking pretty much all his top talent in a few months, like DiBiase, Duggan and Taylor.