Week 7: SkeptiKal -versus- hiphopa-pokemon

[Mr. TM]

The Briscoe Brothers vs The Brisco Brothers: Who are the better team?

Hiphopa-pokemon is the home debater, he gets to choose which side of the debate he is on first, but he has 24 hours.

Remember to read the rules. This thread is only for the debaters.

This round ends Friday 1:00 pm Pacific

 

[The Hiphopapotamus]

I shall argue that the Briscoe brothers, Mark and jay, were the better tag team.

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When you think of The best tag teams in the independent scene today, you think of Kevin Steen and El generico, you think of The American wolves Eddie edwards and Davey Richards. But you will always think of Jay and Mark Briscoe. Why? Because they're awesome. Should I go into more detail, well I must, because it's a debate.

Jay and Mark briscoe both began wrestling at a very young age, debuting at the ages of 16 (Jay) and 15 (mark). They began wrestling in CZW where they had a great match against each other at the best of the best tournament. This match would help jumpstart their careers.

Their careers really started, however, on ROH's first ever show. Jay lost to Amazing Red and Mark accompanied him, as he was too young to wrestle in Philadelphia. Over the years in Ring Of Honor, they have become the best tag team in Ring of Honor history, and that's a huge statement to make, with a promotion like Ring of Honor, who prize a great tag team division. With 5 reigns as ring of Honor tag team champions, their name has become synonymous with ROH. They are the only remaining competitors in ROH who competed on the opening show that are still wrestling there, now that the American Dragon has left.

The Briscoe Brothers are the perfect tag team. They have Speed, strength and chemistry. If you think of teams with the best chemistry, you think of the hardys brothers, the Dudley boyz, E & C. They're all brothers. The briscoes can also fit into this mould. As a tag team the Briscoes would take any team to the limit, and how they aren't in TNA yet is beyond me. They're just as good in the ring as any other tag team.

If they need to finish a match, they can use a huge multitude of moves. Jay has the Jay Driller. Mark has the Cuthroat driver. They have great combos like the springboard doomsday device.

Now, at the moment the Briscoe brothers are great. But so were the brisco brothers, don't get me wrong. But Jay and mark have one thing going, age. They'll get better, they'll improve, they'll reach their primes. And with a combination of all this, the briscoe Brothers Mark and Jay,are truly better than the "e"-less Jerry and jack.

 

[SK]

The Briscoe Brothers vs The Brisco Brothers: Who are the better team?

When looking at the annals of tag team wrestling, there are many great teams that spring to mind, now The Brisco’s may not be the most well remembered or flashy teams, but they should be remembered for being hard working, well drawing journeymen champions. So, Jack went on to have more success than Gerald, but without his brother and their multiple tag team matches and titles reigns both at home and abroad, he may not have found as much success. The Brisco’s are a legendary tag team and can’t even be compared to the Briscoe’s who have accomplished nothing so far, and heres my reasons why.

National success
Jack and Gerald Brisco tagged together many times in many different American promotions (CWF, ESA, GWC, NWA) and they held the tag titles in all of these promotions. They were trusted hard workers and good draws, that’s why they were trusted to hold the tag titles wherever they went. The titles that the Brisco’s won were often against highly competitive and good teams such as the Funk’s, in which they were involved a fantastic feud. The Brisco’s success in America was fantastic and they would have had much more major success if it wasn’t for Jack receiving a singles push. The Brisco’s may not be the most famous team ever, but they’re certainly better than the Briscoe’s, who have been in 3 independent promotions and haven’t even got anywhere near the big leagues yet. Now while you may say neither did the Brisco’s, they did. At the time when the Brisco’s tagged, Territories around the country were big, and there wasn’t one major promotion like the WWE, so winning titles in lots of territories was considered a success.


International success
Jack and Gerald Brisco also tasted international success in WWC in Puerto Rico, holding the tag titles once and having a famous feud with Los Pastores (The Bushwhackers). At the time, success abroad was a big thing, and The Brisco’s accomplished this by winning the WWC North American Tag Team Championship. These were titles that were held by the best tag teams in the wrld and The Brisco’s have added themselves to this list.

Title Reigns
Here’s a list of tag title reigns that the Brisco’s had;

Championship Wrestling from Florida
NWA Florida Tag Team Championship (8 times) - with Jack Brisco
NWA United States Tag Team Championship (Florida version) (5 times) - with Jack Brisco
NWA North American Tag Team Championship (Florida version) (2 times) - with Jack Brisco

Eastern Sports Association
ESA International Tag Team Championship (1 time) - with Jack Brisco

Georgia Championship Wrestling
NWA Georgia Tag Team Championship Jack Brisco (2 times)

Mid-Atlantic Championship Wrestling
NWA World Tag Team Championship (Mid-Atlantic version) (3 time) - with Jack Brisco

World Wrestling Council
WWC North American Tag Team Championship (1 time) - with Jack Brisco

This is a very impressive record of titles in different promotions at home and abroad. Title reigns were not just handed out in the late 70’s, but Jack and Gerald certainly got a few reigns by being a great tag team and a good draw. So the Brisco’s managed to win titles in all different territories and would have won much more if it wasn’t for Jack’s singles success. The Brisco’s howverer, were still a decorated tag team and achieved a hell of a lot whilst they tagged together, becoming some of the best journeymen tag team champions ever.


The Brisco’s a were a good draw, popular and a good team.
Fans cheered the Brisco’s, they wanted to see them win, this is why they were given so many title reigns, this is why they could travel the country and still be trusted to hold the titles and interest the fans. The Brisco’s were a good team who worked hard, promoters and fans alike loved them, they were good for business and put on great matches, they should be remembered much more than they are. Now, while the Briscoe’s might be a good team with potential, they don’t hold a torch to the Brisco’s. Jack and Gerald were a great team who consistently drew well and won titles everywhere they went. The Briscoe’s are a team that are stuck in the indy scene and most likely won’t go anywhere due to their recreational drug use (if rumour is true), they haven’t even made it to TNA yet, and whilst they might seem good in the lower leagues of ROH and CZW, they don’t compare to the Brisco’s who travelled the world and won titles wherever they went.

 

[SK]

When you think of The best tag teams in the independent scene today, you think of Kevin Steen and El generico, you think of The American wolves Eddie edwards and Davey Richards. But you will always think of Jay and Mark Briscoe. Why? Because they're awesome. Should I go into more detail, well I must, because it's a debate.

This opening post says explains why infact the Briscoe’s don’t come close to being as good as the Brisco’s. The Briscoe’s are good as you said, but only in the Independent scene. The haven’t even made it to major promotion yet, and don‘t come close to the success that Jack and Gerald Brisco had. Now compare them to the Brisco’s, who had multiple tag title reigns in the NWA, CWF, GCW, WWC when tag wrestling was new popular and competitive. Tag title reigns were not handed out lightly in the 70s, but Jack & Gerald were always booked as the top team because they were so good and popular amongst the fans. So yes, when talking about the current American indy tag teams, you do think the Briscoe’s. But when your talking about legendary tag teams, not just in America but in Puerto Rico aswell, you think about Jack and Gerald Brisco.

Jay and Mark briscoe both began wrestling at a very young age, debuting at the ages of 16 (Jay) and 15 (mark). They began wrestling in CZW where they had a great match against each other at the best of the best tournament. This match would help jumpstart their careers.

Since when did starting young make you a good wrestler? Don’t get me wrong, the Briscoes are good, but they haven’t proven themselves anywhere yet, they’ve stayed on the indies, adored by the small time crowds. Back when Jack and Gerald teamed, they travelled the world, they didn’t stay small time, they made sure they fought for titles all across the territories in America, even winning the much coveted NWA tag titles, even with stiff competition. This is because they were a great team who drew well and had good chemistry.

Their careers really started, however, on ROH's first ever show. Jay lost to Amazing Red and Mark accompanied him, as he was too young to wrestle in Philadelphia. Over the years in Ring Of Honor, they have become the best tag team in Ring of Honor history, and that's a huge statement to make, with a promotion like Ring of Honor, who prize a great tag team division. With 5 reigns as ring of Honor tag team champions, their name has become synonymous with ROH. They are the only remaining competitors in ROH who competed on the opening show that are still wrestling there, now that the American Dragon has left.

I agree, they are the best team in ROH, but that’s not an amazing achievement is it? ROH is the small leagues, they’re biggest competition are the Wolves or Generico and Steen, not exactly household names now are they? The Brisco’s tagged in the late 70’s and 80’s when tag wrestling was blossoming and there were highly competitive. The Brisco’s had possibly one of the best feuds of the time with the legendary Funk’s.

The Briscoe Brothers are the perfect tag team. They have Speed, strength and chemistry. If you think of teams with the best chemistry, you think of the hardys brothers, the Dudley boyz, E & C. They're all brothers. The briscoes can also fit into this mould. As a tag team the Briscoes would take any team to the limit, and how they aren't in TNA yet is beyond me. They're just as good in the ring as any other tag team.

Dude you are kidding right, Edge & Christian brothers? The Dudleys - brothers? That’s a clinical error on your part my friend. Plus, if were going with this brothers theme, you have to mention the Brisco’s. You also think of the Brisco’s when you think of chemistry, these two teamed all over the world, won titles, wowed fans and had some of the best tag matches at the time, they were given title runs in every promotion and territory that they tagged in.

Now, at the moment the Briscoe brothers are great. But so were the brisco brothers, don't get me wrong. But Jay and mark have one thing going, age. They'll get better, they'll improve, they'll reach their primes. And with a combination of all this, the briscoe Brothers Mark and Jay,are truly better than the "e"-less Jerry and jack.

They may be young, but who’s to say that they will definitely get better? Right now they haven’t accomplished much. They’ve had a few good matches, but they haven’t set foot in a major promotion, they haven’t travelled the world and won titles, they haven’t had success nationwide and they aren’t a recognised name yet. The Brisco’s on the other hand had success nationally and internationally, they had great matches in America and Puerto Rico, they held titles in both countries and are a recognisable and famous team from the 70’s.

 

[The Hiphopapotamus]

This opening post says explains why infact the Briscoe’s don’t come close to being as good as the Brisco’s. The Briscoe’s are good as you said, but only in the Independent scene.

They deserve to be in the bigger promotions, or will be. They're still quite young. They just haven't got there yet, but they will.

The haven’t even made it to major promotion yet, and don‘t come close to the success that Jack and Gerald Brisco had. Now compare them to the Brisco’s, who had multiple tag title reigns in the NWA, CWF, GCW, WWC when tag wrestling was new popular and competitive. Tag title reigns were not handed out lightly in the 70s, but Jack & Gerald were always booked as the top team because they were so good and popular amongst the fans. So yes, when talking about the current American indy tag teams, you do think the Briscoe’s. But when your talking about legendary tag teams, not just in America but in Puerto Rico aswell, you think about Jack and Gerald Brisco.

Sorry, but when I think about legendary teams, the Brisco brothers don't even come up. And I could say the same for most. Road Warriors. Yeah. Horsemen. Yeah. Briscos. No. They were good, but I wouldn't think about them as legendary team that comes to mind straight away.

Since when did starting young make you a good wrestler? Don’t get me wrong, the Briscoes are good, but they haven’t proven themselves anywhere yet, they’ve stayed on the indies, adored by the small time crowds. Back when Jack and Gerald teamed, they travelled the world, they didn’t stay small time, they made sure they fought for titles all across the territories in America, even winning the much coveted NWA tag titles, even with stiff competition. This is because they were a great team who drew well and had good chemistry.

Since when did travelling make you good? If that was the case, Chris Hero would be the best wrestler in America. Because he draws people for CHIKARA and PWG.

I agree, they are the best team in ROH, but that’s not an amazing achievement is it? ROH is the small leagues, they’re biggest competition are the Wolves or Generico and Steen, not exactly household names now are they? The Brisco’s tagged in the late 70’s and 80’s when tag wrestling was blossoming and there were highly competitive. The Brisco’s had possibly one of the best feuds of the time with the legendary Funk’s.

And the Briscos are a household name. And since when did not being known make you not good. Kenta Kobashi is probably unknown by most in America. Does that make him shit. TNA is unknown to a lot. Does that make it shit.

Dude you are kidding right, Edge & Christian brothers? The Dudleys - brothers?

Kayfabe. Read about it.

I'm not an idiot.

That’s a clinical error on your part my friend. Plus, if were going with this brothers theme, you have to mention the Brisco’s. You also think of the Brisco’s when you think of chemistry, these two teamed all over the world, won titles, wowed fans and had some of the best tag matches at the time, they were given title runs in every promotion and territory that they tagged in.

As I said, they're brothers. They're expected to have chemistry.

They may be young, but who’s to say that they will definitely get better? Right now they haven’t accomplished much. They’ve had a few good matches, but they haven’t set foot in a major promotion, they haven’t travelled the world and won titles, they haven’t had success nationwide and they aren’t a recognised name yet. The Brisco’s on the other hand had success nationally and internationally, they had great matches in America and Puerto Rico, they held titles in both countries and are a recognisable and famous team from the 70’s.

Who's to say they won't get better? They haven't reached their prime age, where most wrestlers reach their peaks.

And since when does recognition make you good. I've heard of the Shockmaster. Does that make him a legend.

And the briscoes have had success nationally and internationally, in the indies. Just because they're not in the big boys doesn't mean they don't have success. Big in ROH. Big in NOAH. Success is vague when it comes to wrestling.

 

[SK]

They deserve to be in the bigger promotions, or will be. They're still quite young. They just haven't got there yet, but they will.

But you don’t now that, what if one of their careers ended tomorrow with injury? No doubt that they deserve the chance, but they haven’t had it yet, that’s why I don’t think they can be compare to The Brisco’s. They’ve had their success, but The Briscoe’s haven’t, they are comparable yet, now while The Briscoe’s have potential, we aren’t to know what will happen to them yet.

Sorry, but when I think about legendary teams, the Brisco brothers don't even come up. And I could say the same for most. Road Warriors. Yeah. Horsemen. Yeah. Briscos. No. They were good, but I wouldn't think about them as legendary team that comes to mind straight away.

That’s because they don’t get the credit that they deserve, they never got to shine in a big company like the WWE and partly due to Jack’s singles push. So maybe they aren’t the most well known tag team ever, but they certainly have achieved more than The Briscoe’s have so far. The Brisco’s travelled America and Puerto Rico and won titles in most promotions, they had amazing feuds with The Funks and The Bushwhackers whereas The Briscoe’s unfortunately haven’t faced anyone of real notoriety yet and haven’t reached the big leagues yet.

Since when did travelling make you good? If that was the case, Chris Hero would be the best wrestler in America. Because he draws people for CHIKARA and PWG.

Please don’t put words in my mouth to try and make me sound stupid. I didn’t say travelling made you a good wrestler, but whether you like it or not The Brisco’s did win titles in Puerto Rico, THAT makes them a good team, not just because they travelled.

And the Briscos are a household name. And since when did not being known make you not good. Kenta Kobashi is probably unknown by most in America. Does that make him shit. TNA is unknown to a lot. Does that make it shit.

Again with the putting words in my mouth, I would never say Kobashi is shit because he isn’t very well known. However, he IS well known in Japan, you know his homeland, unlike The Briscoe’s who aren’t well known in America at all.

Kayfabe. Read about it.

I'm not an idiot.

As I said, they're brothers. They're expected to have chemistry.

How does being someone’s kayfabe brother make them have chemistry? I could say we are kayfabe brothers, but that doesn’t give us chemistry or make us a good tag team does it? Anyway this is irrelevant as both tag teams are brothers, so you can’t say The Briscoe’s would be better because their brothers.

Who's to say they won't get better? They haven't reached their prime age, where most wrestlers reach their peaks.

That doesn’t mean they won’t split up, or get injured you just don’t know. However, we do know what Jack and Gerald Brisco accomplished and The Briscoe’s don’t come close yet.

And the briscoes have had success nationally and internationally, in the indies. Just because they're not in the big boys doesn't mean they don't have success. Big in ROH. Big in NOAH. Success is vague when it comes to wrestling.

Yes they have had success in the minor leagues, but nowadays all the good talent is taken straight to WWE or TNA, that’s why The Briscoe’s have no great competition, and that’s why they aren’t as successful as The Brisco’s.

Closing Thoughts.
Unfortunately this will have to be my last post in this debate as I’ll be without a computer for the next 2 days. So I guess I’ll have to give my final thoughts here. Jack and Gerald Brisco were a better team than Jay and Mark Briscoe. The Brisco’s are a hugely underrated team who travelled across America’s territories, winning titles everywhere , even in Puerto Rico. They were a good draw, entertaining and popular, and promoters trusted them to hold the tag titles. They had brilliant feuds with The Bushwhackers and The Funks, they were fantastic journeymen champions that worked hard and performed well. Jay and Mark Briscoe have accomplished nothing yet really, they have no competition in the independent scene and have still yet to make the jump to WWE or TNA. Nobody knows how well they will do and whilst they have potential, we can only weigh up what they’ve done so far, and compared to The Brisco’s they’ve done nothing, I can’t completely discredit them though as they have great potential. Overall, The Brisco’s were the better team because at the time when they tagged, it was a sign that you were good when you could travel the territories and win titles like they did. They may not be very well remembered and were cut short due to Jack’s singles push, but they are underrated and should be given more credit. The Briscoe’s are far too young and unaccomplished to even compare to The Brisco’s.

 

[Mr. TM]

Two stable mates forced to do battle here. A fun debate, a debate where I myself am limited, so I am interested to see what you guys came up with.

Clarity Of Debate - SK was very organised and his posts were easiest to read. Point.

Punctuality: SK had one get out of jail free card, while Hip was late twice. So SK gets this point.

Informative: Both brought forth the information that was needed to make your points. I think Hip was able to expand on them better however.

Emotionality: I like hips attitude in this debate. He gets this point.

Persuasion: As I said, I think I said it, hmm, I feel like I am Memento right now... Anyways, I didn't know a lot about either guy, but after all of this, I am favouring the Brisolds. See what i did there? Yeah... I give this point to SK. Though I dislike Jerry.

TM rates this SK 3 to Hip 2

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Two stable mates forced to do battle here. A fun debate, a debate where I myself am limited, so I am interested to see what you guys came up with.

Clarity Of Debate - SK was very organised and his posts were easiest to read. Point.

Punctuality: SK had one get out of jail free card, while Hip was late twice. So SK gets this point.

Informative: Both brought forth the information that was needed to make your points. I think Hip was able to expand on them better however.

Emotionality: I like hips attitude in this debate. He gets this point.

Persuasion: As I said, I think I said it, hmm, I feel like I am Memento right now... Anyways, I didn't know a lot about either guy, but after all of this, I am favouring the Brisolds. See what i did there? Yeah... I give this point to SK. Though I dislike Jerry.

Point: IrishCanadian25


IrishCandian25: 5
48.7: 0

???

 

[Mr. TM]

Sorry, copy and pasted the scorecard from an older match into this match, and didnt finish off the bottom part. Score has been updated.

 

[CH David]

Clarity: SK always has a great layout. He bolded the points he would be making.

Point: SkeptiKal

Punctuality: See TM's post.

Point: SkeptiKal

Informative: Both had a good showing of information. Difficult to choose who brought or used the better of the two.

Point: Split

Emotionality: Hip showed some good fire. He got the ball rolling, made SK return the favor.

Point: hiphopa-pokemon

Persuasion: SK gets this point. We know what the Brisco's had the better career, as of right now. Which is the question. Not when the Briscoe's retire who will have been the better team. Right now, which is the better team. The Briscoe brothers may have had a good indy career, but the Brisco brothers had a better career with the NWA and the other promotions in their heyday.

Point: SkeptiKal

CH David scores this SkeptiKal 3.5, hiphopa-pokemon 1.5.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Clarity Of Debate: SK had a great layout. Hippopotamus, your post was concise, but so was SK's, so I'm giving him the point based on layout.

Point: SK

Punctuality: See TM's post.

Point: SK

Informative: Hippopotamus brought in a lot of information during his rebuttals, but his opening post could have used just a bit more meat. I found the opposite to be the case for SK.

Point: Split

Emotionality: SK was aggressive in his rebuttals, but Hippopotamus came across as someone who believed in what he was saying. I'm splitting the point here.

Point: Split

Persuasion: I will also be splitting the point here. Very good debate, gentleman.

Point: Split

tdigle's Score

Hippopotamus - 1.5
SK - 3.5

 

[Miko]

Clarity Of Debate: SK made his posts easier to read

Point: SK

Punctuality: SK

Point: SK

Informative: Hiphopa bought in some fine points that helped his debate alot here

Point: hiphopa-pokemon

Emotionality: I'll give hiphoppa the point here, he came in with what I insist on calling "the right attitude"

Point: hiphopa-pokemon

Persuasion: I think in the end SK was the one to win me over, so I'll give him the point here.

Point: SK

Miko's score

pokemon - 2
SK - 3