Week 5: Dave -versus- SavageTaker

Discussion in 'Debator's League 2009' started by Mr. TM, Aug 30, 2009.

  1. Mr. TM

    Mr. TM Throwing a tantrum

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    Will Ring Of Honor ever be more then just the number 3 promotion in the United States?

    Dave is the home debater, he gets to choose which side of the debate he is on first, but he has 24 hours.

    Remember to read the rules. This thread is only for the debaters.

    This round ends Friday 1:00 pm Pacific
     
    #1
  2. Dave

    Dave Administrator
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    I will debate that ROH will not forever be the third promotion in the United States.

    SavageTaker can go first.

    Good luck to you, mate.
     
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  3. SavageTaker

    SavageTaker Everybody Has A Price!

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    I will be debating that ROH WILL remain the number 3 promotion.
     
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  4. Dave

    Dave Administrator
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    For the better part of the last ten years, WWF/E has ruled the roost over the professional wrestling world. With a lack of competition, WWE has become the product that we see before us. A product that has a monopoly of control in the business and no real legitimate contender to the throne it currently inhabits. With the destruction of TNA, WWE has really strangled the competition and it has been very hard for other companies to get anywhere. This changed when in 2002, two companies began to test the foundations that WWE sits upon. Total Non Stop Action (TNA) and Ring of Honour (ROH) were set up and offer an alternative to viewers instead of WWE holding the monopoly.

    So, in this debate I have decided that ROH will someday ne the second promotion in the United States. What we are looking at in this debate is potential and nothing else. As it impossible for me to tell the future, I will tell you why ROH has every chance of becoming bigger than TNA in the future and how it may be sooner, rather than later. I have a few arguments that have led me to believe that ROH will indeed surpass TNA in the pro-wrestling world.

    The first argument I have is that, currently, TNA are in no position to be called the second promotion in the US. I say this for a couple of reasons. Firstly, TNA are so far behind WWE that, to be honest, no one is a legitimate second string to WWE. TNA, however, think they are the alternative. They are so caught up in being the alternative that have lost sight of what is important with their fans. Firstly, TNA is splitting down the middle. You look at the legitimate differences between Kurt Angle and Jeff Jarrett and all I can do is think that they are so concerned with getting ahead of WWE and becoming a legitimate contender that they have lost sight of what is behind them. ROH doesn’t have the same problems. Indeed, it was set up with Honour and respect as standards. I am not going to say that ROH does not have people who dislike each other but TNA is worse by far. The closest thing to controversy in ROH is the Rob Feinstein scandal and that was dealt with quickly with no real effect on the wrestling evident.

    Next, ROH has consistently pumped out talent that can make it in the big leagues. You need not look past CM Punk, the current World Heavyweight Champion, in the biggest pro-wrestling company in the world. Then you look at Samoa Joe, who is still one of the most entertaining and dominating superstars in TNA. Sure, TNA has some good talent on the books but to be honest, all of the guys that the company has been built around, have come from WWE. You look at Kurt Angle, Booker T, Kevin Nash, Bobby Lashley and Mick Foley and you have your evidence right there. Let me just say this, people do not legitimately choose TNA over WWE. In all the cases so far, the people who have joined TNA have not done so out of choice, they have done so out of necessity. Kurt Angle’s schedule, Bobby Lashley’s failure in MMA and Booker’s release mean that they have all ended up in TNA because they have nowhere else to go. I hate to be so blunt about people’s lives but it is true. TNA has consistently been producing top end talent and all TNA has been doing is taking the WWE has-beens onto their books.

    Also, before you say it, I realise that many people from TNA have appeared on ROH but ROH is becoming a stand alone project now and are surpassing TNA.

    Next, ROH is an inventive and innovative new spin on wrestling. When TNA started, they were not inventive at all. The most inventive thing that they came up with was a wrestling ring with 8 sides. No way! This was all because they had no original ideas to employ for themselves. ROH on the other hand, did have an original concept to employ. The started a federation that existed on the basis of respect for your opponent. With this, they have become unique and are a more credible promotion because of this. People talk about the concept of ROH and talk about in a great manner. The unique concept of ROH is it’s selling point and that is so much better than a wrestling ring has more sides.

    Next, over the last 7 years or so, ROH has been showing signs of becoming a legitimate wrestling promotion. It has a great fanbase who consistently purchase the DVD of the shows that it puts on that has given ROH a worldwide fanbase. TNA has been suffering lately and people are talking about why it’s PPV’s have been failing and how buy-rates should be higher. ROH on the other hand are consistently expanding and at a rapid rate. They signed the deal to take them to on-demand PPV’s, TNA became very petty and decided to pull all of the stars from ROH. If TNA is not worried about the potential of ROH, why are they pulling all of their stars? I’ll tell you why, it’s because they are worried that ROH will likely become the second promotion in America. Now, it has a weekly show and are approximately on the same level as TNA. By expanding the company are continually developing the production, they have more potential than TNA by far. TNA have seemingly boxed themselves in in the last few years and really have done nothing interesting.

    As you can see, ROH has the potential to be infinitely more than TNA is or ever will be.
     
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  5. SavageTaker

    SavageTaker Everybody Has A Price!

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    I’m glad that Dave did make a post, for a minute there I thought you were going to no-show this debate. But like I have done in the previous debates, and this one will be no different, I’m going to prove my side of the debate to be correct. I do however wish my opponent luck in this debate, because he is going to need it.

    Today, we are debating whether ROH will be more than just the number 3 promotion in the US, well I am going to debate that they will NOT be more than the number 3 promotion. I will be making various points as to why they will not be more than the number 3 promotion and I am confident that by the end of this debate, the judges will be persuaded by me.

    My first point is something that everyone, or at least most people, need. It’s something that’s essential in starting your own wrestling promotion for example and to keep that promotion alive. That needed item is one that a lot of us possess, and that would be money. Now, before I explain my reasoning for choosing money as one of my points, please let me make it very clear that I am not stating that ROH doesn’t have any money, however I am simply going in a different direction than that and I will explain to the best of my abilities why I chose money to be one of my arguments in this debate.

    Like I said, money is something that is indispensable in order to start a wrestling promotion and to keep it alive, in other words, money is absolutely necessary. Now, I did say that I am not saying that ROH doesn’t have money, so hopefully the judges understand what I am saying but just in case, I will try to explain myself well.

    ROH does have money, they make it in several different ways like selling DVD’s, their house shows, their television tapings, and they used to make money from pay per views and that’s only naming a few ways they made money. However, when you look at the companies that are considered to be the respective number one and two companies in America (WWE and TNA) they are making a lot more money off of those things than ROH which is one of the things that is keeping ROH from moving up in the food chain, the fact that they don’t make as much money as those other two companies.

    Ultimately, a company shows its growth via how much money they have acquired over time and while ROH has made some money, it doesn’t compare to what WWE and TNA has made because of various reasons. If a company wants to move up, then one of the things that they should be doing is making more money than the companies above them, which in this case ROH is simply not doing that. So that’s my first reason why ROH is destined to be the number 3 promotion in America, because they aren’t making nearly the amount of money that the companies above them are making.

    But that was only my first reasoning, so let’s move on to reason number two which just happens to be demographics. This is another major thing for wrestling companies and it’s what helps them grow and keeps them alive, their fans. Yes, while ROH has their fans, there are many fans that they don’t have because of the reason that I will be explaining in the following paragraph and the other reason which I will explain later on in my post.

    Now, admittedly I haven’t seen as much of the ROH product as others on these forums and other fans who aren’t on these forums, however if there’s one thing I have come to realize about their product, it’s that while I do enjoy watching it sometimes it’s not a product that targets the majority of the wrestling watching audience, which isn’t necessarily the most important but they are definitely the ones they should be going after.

    If you look at WWE and TNA, they target the majority of wrestling fans and that’s because of one simple reason, that’s the highest amount of fans that there is. There are a lot of fans that WWE and TNA targets that ROH’s product doesn’t because of the way that is designed to be.

    I admitted that I do enjoy watching their product sometimes, however I am just one wrestling fans and there are millions of them out there. However, while there are millions, how many ROH fans are there? I can tell you right now that it’s nowhere near the same amount of fans that either WWE or TNA has.

    ROH focuses more in the in-ring aspect of wrestling, which is something that doesn’t really entertain the majority of fans. This is proven by the fact that ROH is the number 3 promotion in the world, because of the in-ring product is all what wrestling fans cared about then ROH would be probably by number one or two. Unfortunately for ROH there is more to pro-wrestling than just actual wrestling.

    Some of the things included that ROH hasn’t really showcased much of like WWE and TNA has done, is things like still being entertaining without wrestling. I know that sounds odd and some might not understand but let me explain it with an example. What fans ultimately want, or at least the majority of them, is to be entertained by not only wrestling but by other things such as promos for example. Fans not only want to see their favorite wrestlers wrestle but they actually want to see them be entertaining when they are talking on a microphone. Take DX for example, they can be entertaining when they are wrestling AND when they are doing something else. But when people watch ROH, people don’t feel like they are entertained by everything which is something that is holding ROH back, the fact that their product is a product that the majority of people don’t watch because of the fact that it’s based mostly about the wrestling aspects but people want to be entertain by other things too. ROH won’t be anything more than the second promotion in America because the demographic they target is that of wrestling fans who care more about the wrestling than anything else, and those fans are just in the minority of wrestling fans.

    That was my second point and now I will explain my third point which has to do with their marketing and advertising. I may have criticized TNA for having horrible marketing and advertising, but there’s a major difference between TNA’s and ROH’s (I’m not going to get into why WWE’s marketing and advertising beats ROH’s because I think it’s very clear why). That difference is that while TNA doesn’t run many commercials and one of the major things they do is hand out flyers, at least it’s something. ROH basically doesn’t have any advertising/marketing. Never have I seen a ROH commercial or flyer and that’s a big problem because without that type of stuff, then the majority of wrestling fans who have never heard of ROH will never get to watch it and possibly become regular watchers because they’ll never find out about them.

    ROH’s marketing and advertising is basically non-existent and that’s my final reason why they will remain the number 3 company in America, because of the lack of advertising and marketing, people won’t find out who they are.

    In summation, I think I have done a good job of explaining why ROH will remain the number 3 promotion in America in this post. Those reasons include, them not making as much money as WWE and TNA, their demographics being the minority in wrestling fans, the way their product is designed to be, and their advertising and marketing being basically non-existent.
     
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  6. Dave

    Dave Administrator
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    I actually thought that you were going first, so last night when there was no reply, I just decided to post. I was going to post yesterday because it was the first opportunity that I had to post in the debate. Nevertheless, we are debating now and I believe that you have made a poor choice in the side you have taken. To say that they will always be the third promotion shows a lack of insight in the potential of ROH and an ignorance on it’s already exponential development and growth.

    Straight from the desk of circumlocution.

    Please try because you have not said anything of substance at all.

    I’m glad you have proof for that because if you didn’t that would be a pretty silly thing to say, wouldn’t it. You would think it is common knowledge but to be honest, ROH is a stable company that, I assure you, is making a profit as opposed to any kind of loss. TNA may make more money but as long as a company is stable and is making enough money to continue putting it’s product out, what is the big deal about how much it makes? ROH is a developing company whose profits have probably increased with all the expansion they have done into TV markets and PPV’s. Although you would love it to be a factor, money does not mean much in this situation because ROH have enough money to keep on putting the product out. It would be an issue if they could not afford to keep superstars or rent out event locations but that is not a problem.

    It’s probably because ROH is a smaller company on a smaller scale to the bigger wrestling companies. Let me get this clear for you, ST. In this debate, we are not talking about why ROH is a smaller company than WWE or TNA, we are talking about the potential that ROH possesses and if that potential could take ROH past TNA into the second spot in the United States pro wrestling scene. You seem convinced that because ROH is not bigger than TNA right now, that it will never get past TNA, which is probably so far from the truth. TNA has exhausted it’s potential and now settles for second spot in pro wrestling instead of trying to develop further.

    What!? Are you trying to convince the judges that ROH is not trying to convince the people who watch bigger promotions like WWE and TNA to watch their promotion? That is absolutely ludicrous, ST. I believe that ROH is trying to that and are becoming more successful in developing the product that goes out in order to lure the people who watch WWE and TNA to their promotion.

    Again, I am glad you have proof that ROH has not attracted anything near the fans that TNA have. I have no idea how many fans of ROH have, nor do I have any idea how many fans TNA has because wrestling fans continually flip-flop around to which ones the follow. In fact, most people watch more than one promotion. Nevertheless, ROH are a smaller promotion and as such, do not have the fanbase of the other promotions. ROH is a company that is growing and growing. With more exposure in the last couple of years and continuing development in terms of exposure, ROH are ensuring that they are levelling the playing field to TNA. ROH fans are growing and again, I believe, they have the potential to be bigger than TNA. TNA just got a bit lucky if you ask me. TNA were the only alternative to WWE at one point and had a better foundation so companies were more open to taking them on. Now companies are seeing that wrestling is a genre that will make money if marketed in the right way. ROH are only now becoming a legitimate company in terms of competition and will continue to grow.

    I think that you mean to say that it doesn’t entertain everyone. I’m more than sure that people who are already fans of the promotion are more than thrilled with the level of entertainment that they get from the product.

    I honestly cannot understand the first sentence. I think what you are trying to say is that Ring of Honour does not give the same entertainment value as promotions such as TNA or WWE. However, saying that fans want to be entertained with promos and then insinuate that ROH does not is completely wrong. ROH promos are as good as any other promotion in the world. For example, watch this promo from Ric Flair in ROH:

    [youtube]MzB99xNQO4M[/youtube]

    You will notice that that promo is as good as anything else you will see. Ric Flair is one of the best wrestlers ever in terms of in ring work and outside of the work promos. ROH can entertain fans just as much as any other promotion in pro wrestling. Just because ROH runs on the basis of a code of honour and putting more emphasis on the wrestling aspect of the show, it doesn’t mean that they are broing and that promos etc do not exist.

    Right now, I agree with you. Ring of Honour does not advertise enough and relies on word of mouth and the internet to advertise it’s product. However, it would not make any sense to advertise strongly. Hear me out here. Ring of Honour are a small promotion and as you said, do not have as much money as the bigger promotions. So tell me, how does it make sense to spent an exurbanite amount of money to advertise events that are basically few and far between. It is OK for TNA because they can advertise their weekly show, or their PPV’s or whatever, they also have the money to do so. Why would ROH do that when they are making enough money from the way their business is run right now. Why take ona risky advertising schedule that may not even pay off or make any difference when they are developing and growing as is?

    No, in summation you have told us why ROH is third promotion and not why you think it will stay that way. What I am trying to say is that ROH has the potential to go one better than TNA and become a very good promotion that could rival the bigger promotions. I summarise that ROH will continue to grow and will eventually become a legitimate contender to the second spot that TNA currently occupies.
     
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  7. Mr. TM

    Mr. TM Throwing a tantrum

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    Clarity of Argument - Dave had some mistakes that hurt his argument, and since ST was pretty solid, ST gets the points.


    Punctuality: Not sure what happened there. Did Dave forget to mention who was going to go first? If not, then he gets the point, if so, he loses it. Until then, Dave has the point.


    Informative: ST brought some great information, that showed his hard research. Dave might have been researching UFC with his eight sided ring argument;).


    Emotionality: Neither were highly emotional in any way, but I think ST showed more grit and got the job done his way. Too bad that was only one post worth.


    Persuasion: I gave a broad topic, and you guys both used that to your advantage. Neither were heavily influential, but I think Dave swayed me a little more. I could have easily gone any way here. I was wondering if either of you would bring up a foreign company moving over to America, which would have been a fun point.


    TM rates this 3 points ST, 2 points Dave.
     
    #7
  8. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Clarity of Argument - Dave, I wasn't really sure where you were heading with your argument. I commend you for not taking things for granted, but, in this instance, I would have just taken TNA's position as the number 2 promotion as a given and worked with that. SavageTaker, although a bit wordy, it was obvious where you argument was headed.

    Point: SavageTaker

    Punctuality - Dave gets the point here.

    Point: Dave

    Informative - SavageTaker, you really are IrishCanadian25, Jr., with your research, and that's a good thing.

    Point: SavageTaker

    Emotionality: Dave, I liked your persistence in posting a rebuttal, so I'm giving you the point here.

    Point: Dave

    Persuasion: SavageTaker, you presented a good argument with the information you had. Dave, you are more than capable of presenting a solid argument, but I think you were too ambitious in scope here. Sometimes, less is more.

    Point: SavageTaker

    tdigle's Score

    Dave - 2
    SavageTaker - 3
     
    #8
  9. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    Clarity: Both were clear and I could understand them, although Dave's was a little spotty.

    Point: SavageTaker

    Punctuality: Dave was on time, and ST didn't really make his first post when Dave deferred to him.

    Point: Dave

    Informative: ST showed some good information, Dave was a little off on some of his points.

    Point: SavageTaker

    Emotionality: I think Dave was very insistent that ROH is going to be higher than number 3. ST seemed content with stating that ROH is number 3 right now and why, as well as stating that TNA is number 2 right now and why.

    Point: Dave

    Persuasion: Dave swayed me, because he kept talking about potential for the future. The way I see it, any promotion not called WWE, can make a push to be bigger, and others can fall off by making certain personnel mistakes and whatnot.

    Point: Dave

    CH David scores this Dave 3, SavageTaker 2.
     
    #9
  10. Blade

    Blade "Original Blade"

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    Clarity: ST. Dave seemed to be clutching at straws just a tad.

    Punctuality: Dave, apparently.

    Informative: ST brought some interesting info to the table, he deserves the point here.

    Emotionality: Dave used a tad too much... sarcasm for my tastes. No offense, Dave :p ST gets the point.

    Persuasion: While ST did argue really well, I feel Dave's TNA argument at the start was just a good argument, one that made sense. Dave gets it.

    SavageTaker 3 Dave 2
     
    #10
  11. Miko

    Miko WATCHA GONNA DO, BROTHER!?

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    Clarity: SavageTaker used a lot of words, I felt many were unnecessary

    Point: Dave

    Punctuality: Everyone else says Dave

    Point: Dave

    Informative: I think I gotta go with ST on this one

    Point: SavageTaker

    Emotionality: ST was a little scrapper wasnt he? A scrapper with typed words on an internet forum anyway.

    Point: SavageTaker

    Persuasion: Errr, close call, it's not a subject close to my heart, I like splitting points, so I'll indulge my little fetish here

    Point: Split

    I as the judge score this round;
    Dave - 2.5
    SavageTaker - 2.5

    Hmm, a draw, how anti-climactic
     
    #11

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