Week 3: The D-Man -versus- Lee

Discussion in 'Debator's League 2009' started by Mr. TM, Aug 17, 2009.

  1. Mr. TM

    Mr. TM Throwing a tantrum

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    Over time, wrestlers have jumped ship from one promotion to another promotion. Each time the wrestler had a different run in each company. Some have been better, some have been worse. But for those wrestlers who faced a similar push, in which company did they thrive more in?

    Did X-Pac/Syxx thrive more in WCW or WWE?


    Lee is the home debater, he gets to choose which side of the debate he is on first, but he has 24 hours.

    Remember to read the rules. This thread is only for the debaters.

    This round ends + 24 hours after Friday 1:00 pm Pacific
     
    #1
  2. Lee

    Lee Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No it's Supermod!
    Staff Member Super Moderator E-Fed Mod

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    Lee chooses the WWF/E and will let D-Man go first.
     
    #2
  3. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    First of all, this is a difficult debate, primarily because of the first half of my opening statement (which I believe even Lee would agree with):

    X-Pac is a career jobber/stepping stone, but especially was in the WWE

    Sean Waltman has had many gimmicks throughout his career. From debuting in the WWE/F as the many faces of a jobber, to temporarily settling on the horrendous 1-2-3 Kid gimmick, to jumping to WCW as Syxx, and then back to WWF/E as X-Pac, Waltman spent the majority of his career finding his niche in the world of professional wrestling… all of this while battling inner demons, depression, and alcoholism. However, as we all know, Waltman spent the majority of his pro-wrestling career bouncing between WWF/E and WCW. But if you truly break it down, the more important role of his lackluster career was during his tenure with WCW. Allow me to explain…

    Initial failure and flounder in the WWF…
    Waltman began his horrendous journey of professional wrestling in 1993. He repeatedly made appearances on WWF Superstars and the new television concept of Monday Night Raw with a revolving door of gimmicks, such as the "Kamikaze Kid," "Cannonball Kid," (my personal favorite) the "L. Kid" (or Lightning Kid, duh), and just plain "The Kid." He was given a minor push in 1993 by defeating Razor Ramon on Monday Night Raw, thereby being dubbed the "1-2-3 Kid." He would then spend the next two years as a glorified jobber by getting tossed around by the midcard, winning and losing his matches at will, until he turned heel on Razor Ramon and joined the Million Dollar Corporation, where he spent the rest of his WWF run until 1996.

    Analysis: This period of time that Waltman spent in the WWF was a complete waste. He did hardly anything of importance, except a few lackluster tag title runs with Marty Jannetty(?!?) and Bob Holly(?!?) for a whopping total of 8 days as a champion. His time with the Million Dollar Corporation was another bust, as no members of the entire faction ever won a title. An absolutely pitiful period of time spent in a wrestling organization.

    Jumping to WCW: Paving the Way for his Legacy
    When Waltman decided to jump ship to WCW, he was basically a nobody with hardly any notoriety. As explained previously, he came from an organization that gave him failed gimmicks and angles that basically got him nowhere in the pro-wrestling industry. That is, until he entered WCW.

    The day he walked into WCW in 1996, he was shown on camera during the broadcast. Just like Scott Hall and Kevin Nash before him, Waltman’s appearance at the live event and on camera was intriguing to the audience. This is what made the nWo such a successful faction… it made fans of the WWF jump ship to WCW because they thought these defunct superstars were taking over the competition. It also immediately elevated Waltman from lower-midcard in the WWE to upper-midcard/main event status from joining the nWo in WCW. Finally, Waltman was given an angle and gimmick that made the audience look at him as more than just a “jobber.” Because of copyright infringement, he was renamed “Syxx,” and took a front seat in the now as one of the first members to join to faction after its formation by Hogan, Nash, and Hall. He made an immediate impact on Nitro in 1996 by triggering a remote control to release nWo paraphernalia from the ceiling to reveal his new membership with the faction. This was far and away the biggest push of his career and an elevation like no other. After spending over three years with the WWF and going nowhere, it took one day for him to walk into WCW and make a major name for himself.

    He immediately made an impact by taunting members the Cruiserweight division, which at the time was becoming one of the most important and entertaining divisions within WCW. At the same time, he began a feud with Eddy Guererro for the WCW United States Championship by stealing his title. Therefore, Waltman was given a role to antagonize two major divisions within WCW at the same time, which is something that you don’t see very often in professional wrestling. This lead to an exciting ladder match with Guererro at Souled Out which Waltman lost, but made another contribution with his new wrestling organization that completely shadowed anything he has done in the past.

    The very next month, Syxx defeated future hall of famer Dean Milenko to capture the WCW Cruiserweight Championship at Superbrawl. At the time, the WCW Cruiserweight Division was one of WCW’s biggest focal points, compared to the Intercontinental Division of the WWE at the time, whose champion was Rocky Maivia, who was enjoying a failed title run after defeating Hunter Hearst Helmsley. Waltman lost the title after having to defend it twice in one night, losing to Chris Jericho only minutes after defeating Rey Mysterio, Jr.

    Then, Syxx was given something that would have been completely unheard of in the WWF… a feud with one of its biggest draws… Ric Flair. Syxx was even given an opportunity to parody Flair’s role in the Four Horsemen, which led to a memorable War Games match pitting the nWo versus the Four Horsemen at Fall Brawl. Syxx was chosen as a representative of one of the biggest and most important wrestling factions in history to face the most influential and important faction in the history of professional wrestling, the Four Horsemen, and WON. This is a huge milestone for a young superstar.

    As large as the nWo had become with its endless star-power, it needed someone to take Kevin Nash’s in defending the WCW tag team titles held by the Outsiders. Who did they choose? None other than Syxx. Even though this was a brief substitution and they wound up losing the titles, it was still an honor for Syxx to be chosen out of all of the members of the nWo at the time.

    In the same month, Waltman injured his neck, and in a way of throwing his weight and power around, Eric Bischoff fired him while he was injured to send a message to the backstage politicians.

    Analysis: The character Syxx is what made Sean Waltman’s career… period. During his time in WCW, he walked into the promotion’s biggest draw and top faction, played a HUGE part in beating the WWE in the ratings war, gained notoriety throughout the world of professional wrestling, and became a star. His elevation in this promotion set the tone and provided him direction for any next step that he would take in his career.

    Second run in the WWE: Wasted in the Land of the Factions
    Upon Waltman’s return to the WWE, he was coming off his instant popularity and the notoriety that he gained in WCW as Syxx. Because he was extremely well known in the professional wrestling world at the time (and because of his personal relationships), he was immediately chosen as one of the newest members of the reformed Degeneration X and renamed X-Pac (following HBK’s leave from the WWE after a serious back injury and losing the world title at Wrestlemania 14).

    At the time, the WWE’s top titles were the WWE Championship, the Intercontinental Championship, and the Tag Team Championships. Instead of following in the stride that WCW created for him in chasing top championships, X-Pac immediately took a back seat to the New Age Outlaws and Triple H and was stuck chasing the European championship until Wrestlemania 15, where Triple H turned on him and left DX in the dust for his focus on the WWE Championship division.

    X-Pac spent the next year and a half bouncing between different divisions and storylines, forming and breaking factions with Kane and Justin Credible, winning and losing lackluster and midcard titles, reforming and breaking up the floundering Degeneration X, diving deeper into alcoholism, and coming in and out of the spotlight from injuries. He never got another chance to build the momentum that he gained in WCW.

    Analysis: Waltman went from a top star and taking the front seat in the top faction in WCW to being stuffed in the trunk of the WWE’s top faction, only for it to crumble and send X-Pac to the land of the midcard failures. In his defense, I don’t think it was completely his fault, but he was given sufficient television time, microphone time, good matchups, and many chances to shine. He just couldn’t get it to lead anywhere like he did in WCW.

    Overall Summary
    All in all, Sean Waltman accomplished more in just over 2 years with WCW than he did in over 7 years and two separate runs in the WWF/E. He made a name for himself in WCW and paved the way for what should have been a successful career when he jumped ship to WWF/E. However, he failed miserably. He was given many chances and numerous angles and storylines for him to shine, but he came up short, compared to the success he attained in WCW.

    Good luck, Lee. I look forward to a challenging response.
     
    #3
    gd likes this.
  4. Lee

    Lee Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No it's Supermod!
    Staff Member Super Moderator E-Fed Mod

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    So here I go to look at X-Pac in WWF/WCW and back to WWF/E, I will be arguing that he thrived the most in WWE and not WCW. Also a great post by D-Man.

    1-2-3 Kid

    Waltmans initial run in the WWF, we all know he came in as a jobber, the route that was their before the initial farm territories. Here he must have impressed someone as they gave him a win over Razor Ramon.

    [youtube]ghoAFLkFqPo[/youtube]

    That would have been the equivelent of one of ECW's 'local competitors' beating Regal or someone like that. Going from jobber to beating one of your upper midcarders is pretty darn impressive. Within18 months he had received a title shot against Bret Hart. That at the time was somewhat rare for a competitor who was still essentially a rookie to get such a high profile match almost winning the belt. This showing a definite improvement and an obvious thriving.

    WCW

    Here Syxx was brought in as an upper midcarder but this didn't last long, after his mini feud for the US title it then led to him moved down to the cruiserweight division. His last chance of achieving that upper mid card status was being with Wolfpac as part of the free bird rule, it was because of Syxx they lost the belts against the Steiners.

    Looking to the kliq

    Here is where I feel X-Pac thrived the most finally taking the mantle of X-Pac and joining Degeneration-X. His cocky cruiser attitude made him one of the guys that people wanted to immitate in DX on the school yards. In this time he held the European championship and two tag runs with Kane.

    X-Pac heat

    This is where X-Pac went from the heights of DX to basically being forced out, being one of the few WWF heels during the alliance.

    Why am I mentioning X-Pac heat? Well surely that would prove he didn't thrive in this period. I would agree there, but that was from 2001 it was before this period he thrived. Would you class going from jobber to having a title match within 18 months as thriving? I would. Going from a high rated member of a stable to just being one lost in the numbers? Nope I wouldn't. Coming into WWE and helping reshape DX into what is widely seen as the greatest incarnation of one of the greatest stables of all time? I would.
     
    #4
  5. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Thank you, sir. I appreciate that.

    Yes, it was quite a rub...

    I must admit, I marked out when I watched this again LOL. What a great moment... too bad it really lead nowhere. In today's market, that would have been a push to the moon. Back then, they couldn't follow through with it correctly and Waltman turned from a normal jobber to a midcard jobber. (Not much of a step up...)

    This is true, but that one match didn't really make him thrive now, did it? He had a brief moment in the sun, but Waltman nor the WWE management could figure out a way to elevate him from there. When it was all said and done, he went right back to taking a back seat in the Million Dollar Corporation and getting short-term pops with his lackluster tag team title runs.

    In today's WWE market, being shifted to the Cruiserweight division would be a step down. But in the late 1990's WCW market, the CW division was just as (if not more) reputable and in some ways overshadowed divisions such as the US title and tag divisions. The influx of Lucha Libre wrestlers and Cruiserweights became a major channel changer for many WWE fans and was noted as one of the most popular divisions on pro-wrestling television for a while. It was one of the few things that WCW did right during the Monday Night Wars.

    Yes, but he was a last minute fill-in for Kevin Nash... he had little to no prior experience teaming with Scott Hall and came into a match with one of the most well-respected and successful tag teams of the past 30 years.

    Everyone also wanted to own a mannequin head and hold it up in the air when Al Snow bursted onto the scene, but does that mean Al Snow actually "thrived"? Just because kids were mimicking him?

    Ok cool. Then we agree ;)

    Let's be fair... I agree with this to an extent. However, many wrestlers are given a push/rub every once in a while. It's what they do with it afterwards that categorizes them as "thriving." If a crowd begins to like a wrestler, then eventually they'll get some kind of title shot. Most of them lose, unless they've "thrived" enough to deserve the strap. Now, I'm not saying that just because Waltman lost the match he didn't thrive. He definitely made some moves in his early WWF days. But they just don't compare or come close to what he did in WCW. His days in that organization were a constant upward elevation, while his days in the WWF were somewhat of a roller coaster, ending with him being left in the dust of a failed faction.

    Are you referring to his days with WCW? I've already explained the importance of every major move that he made in the nWo, and it was uncontested. Therefore, I assume that I'm right and he was far from being "lost in the numbers."

    You say that he took a back seat in the nWo? So then how would you explain his position in DX? Clearly, he took a back seat to Triple H, the New Age Outlaws, and even Chyna! X-Pac floundered in DX so badly that they even tried using Shane McMahon to get him over (when Shane was white hot as European Champion) only to have him lose on the grandest stage of them all by becoming a stepping stone and a footstool for Triple H's heel turn and the beginning of his singles run. And after that, DX was left in the dust with no one left but the Outlaws and Waltman (who was still taking a backseat to the Outlaws.) It just doesn't compare to his run in WCW... not by a landslide.

    Well done, Lee. I've never had the chance to debate with you, but you're really challenging me and I like it ;)
     
    #5
  6. Mr. TM

    Mr. TM Throwing a tantrum

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    Clarity of debate- 1 point
    You both made your points clear and that makes it easy for judges to go through, so I thank both of you. But Dman went above and beyond that with his argument and deserves this point.

    Punctuality- 1 point
    D-Man kept the fight up until the end. He gets this point.

    Informative- 1 point
    There were points of information on both sides, and both really had the chance to capitlize on missed points for either. But Dman really explored the points better here.

    Emotionality- 1 point
    This was the hardest point to give here. I disliked they way Dman saw the debate presented in his first post, but he did make up for it. However, I have to give Lee this point due to his strong believe in his argument.

    Persuasion- 1 point
    Dman persuaded me that Syxx>Xpac here, which surprised me, as I really thought that it was the other way around in my head. Who loved the diaper match as a youngster? This guy.

    TM rates this 4 points Dman to 1 points Lee.
     
    #6
  7. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Clarity - Both posters presented very clear arguments. I'll give Lee the point here, because of how much more concise he was.

    Point: Lee

    Punctuality: D-Man gets the point here.

    Point: D-Man

    Informative: Lee, you brought up two points that I thought were essential to any debate regarding Sean Waltman: his excellent match with Bret Hart on RAW (this is one of the best matches I have ever seen) and the fact that, in WCW, under the Freebird rule, he led to The Outsiders losing the tag team championship belts in late 1997. Therefore, you get the point here.

    Point: Lee

    Emotionality: D-Man gets the point here.

    Point: D-Man

    Persuasion: Very tough decision here. Lee, if life allowed you ten more minutes to spend on each debate you have (enough time to churn out a rebuttal), then you'd easily win your debates.

    Point: D-Man

    tdigle's Score

    D-Man: 3
    Lee: 2
     
    #7
  8. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    Clarity: I liked the way D-Man went through both runs and obviously his WCW run, and the way it was presented.

    Point: The D-Man

    Punctuality: D-Man gets the point

    Point: The D-Man

    Informative: D-Man brought a lot of good information, and I may seem tedious with this, but he overlooked Waltman's match with Bret Hart for the title in his first post, which is huge.

    Point: Lee

    Emotionality: D-Man gets the point.

    Point: The D-Man

    Persuasion: This goes to D-Man. I always thought it was X-Pac over Syxx, but D-Man really provided some good thought-provoking information that I didn't think about too often.

    Point: The D-Man

    CH David scores it D-Man 4, Lee 1.
     
    #8
  9. Miko

    Miko WATCHA GONNA DO, BROTHER!?

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    Clarity: Both clear arguments, gonna give the point to Lee for this one though.

    Point: Lee

    Punctuality: D-Man

    Point: The D-Man

    Informative: Another point for the Lee-Man

    Point: Lee

    Emotionality: This time Lee loses

    Point: The D-Man

    Persuasion: I was torn at the beggining, but D-Mans argument was the best one I though, he did a good job convincing me that Sean Waltman thrived more in WCW, so obviously he gets the point.

    Point: The D-Man

    Lord Miko Hayes scores
    D-Man - 3
    Lee - 2
     
    #9

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