FromTheSouth
You don't want it with me.
Sivs will affirm. Thread is open for a week. TM will judge.
Resolved: A free market is not preferable to an inclusive market.
Resolved: A free market is not preferable to an inclusive market.
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Week 2 - Sivsyboi vs. Game
- Thread starter FromTheSouth
- Start date
The Roid Rage
Getting Noticed By Management
I am not familiar with this term "inclusive market" or this kind of topic in general. Would you please define the topic more clearly? It would greatly help both of us.
FromTheSouth
You don't want it with me.
I am not familiar with this term "inclusive market" or this kind of topic in general. Would you please define the topic more clearly? It would greatly help both of us.
No. I will not. You guys define it.
Ok, let's hope I get the hang of this one. I took the question to mean government inclusive markets. Hope that’s right.
If the Wall Street Crash of 1929 can teach us anything, it's that government keeping out of economic issues can only end in disaster. The recession of the 1930's (popularly called the great depression) caused huge levels of unemployment, affecting the US economy, industry and (possibly most importantly) world trade. Why? Because president Herbert Hoover's policy of leaving the US stock exchange a 'free market' caused companies to be massively over-valued. After Roosevelt was voted into office in the 1932 election, he enforced a policy of the government interfering with the economy by forcing companies to spend more. This policy ended the recession far quicker than leaving it to itself would have done.
An inclusive market is obviously preferable to a free market, as a free market will, sooner or later, overvalue its products. In the case of the Wall Street, almost every company’s stock was overvalued before drastically falling back to it’s true value. With an inclusive market, prices are kept stable to ensure supply and demand don’t control them.
This is all I could do due to issues and time constraints. I’ll try to do more after the Game Rage posts.
If the Wall Street Crash of 1929 can teach us anything, it's that government keeping out of economic issues can only end in disaster. The recession of the 1930's (popularly called the great depression) caused huge levels of unemployment, affecting the US economy, industry and (possibly most importantly) world trade. Why? Because president Herbert Hoover's policy of leaving the US stock exchange a 'free market' caused companies to be massively over-valued. After Roosevelt was voted into office in the 1932 election, he enforced a policy of the government interfering with the economy by forcing companies to spend more. This policy ended the recession far quicker than leaving it to itself would have done.
An inclusive market is obviously preferable to a free market, as a free market will, sooner or later, overvalue its products. In the case of the Wall Street, almost every company’s stock was overvalued before drastically falling back to it’s true value. With an inclusive market, prices are kept stable to ensure supply and demand don’t control them.
This is all I could do due to issues and time constraints. I’ll try to do more after the Game Rage posts.
The Roid Rage
Getting Noticed By Management
To simplify the terms I am going to break this down to free market vs. planned market which is what this topic really comes down to or capitalism vs communism.
Definitions:
Free Market/Capitalism
A market economy based on supply and demand with little or no government control. A completely free market is an idealized form of a market economy where buyers and sells are allowed to transact freely (i.e. buy/sell/trade) based on a mutual agreement on price without state intervention in the form of taxes, subsidies or regulation.
an economic system in which prices and wages are determined by unrestricted competition between businesses, without government regulation or fear of monopolies.
Planned Market/Communism
An economic system in which the government controls and regulates production, distribution, prices, etc.
A type of economy in which some central authority makes a wide range of decisions pertaining to production and wages.
A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.
Pros and Cons of Free Market Economy/Capitalism
Cons:
- Inequality, there tends to be a rise in inequality as benefits of capitalism are not equitably distributed. As wealth tends to redound to a small percentage of the population, the demand for luxury goods is often limited to a small percentage of the workforce, one of the main capitalism disadvantages.
- Monopoly behavior, another disadvantage of capitalism is that firms gain monopoly over power in a free market allows and exploit customers by charging higher prices. They often pay lower wages to workers.
- Because of the inequality of wealth in a truly Capitalist society with no Government welfare great poverty is bound to occur. Leading to homelessness, slums, disease, etc; this will further lead to forced migration. This will expand the problem to bigger cities too. Another disadvantage of capitalism is that there is limited government control.
Pros:
- Buyers are free to purchase any commodity which they like and in whatever amounts. The seller of a good or its producer can also produce whichever product they want to and also increase the capacity of any individual commodity depending upon the forces of the market. Producers are free to undertake the risks and rewards associated with increase in production. There is no state intervention in the functioning of the forces of the market.
- One of the biggest advantages that a market-oriented economy enjoys is the determination of a unique price determined by the demand and supply in absence of any monopolistic or oligopolistic influences. The decision of what to produce, for whom to produce and in what quantities is taken by the market forces and not determined by the state. The role of the state is limited to ensuring proper transparency in the prices charged by the sellers of the concerned commodity. Prices also have the function to allocate and distribute a countrys resources.
- With little interference by the government, problems like corruption, lack of incentives and poor information do not arise. We end up with these problems only when governments attempt to control the economy. This is one of the main benefits of capitalism.
- Successful Production, one of the advantages of capitalism is that as firms have incentives to be efficient in production, in a market system, cutting costs, improve competitiveness and productivity are their top priority. They will go out of business if their efficiency and productivity fails.
- Cost effective allocation of resources Being the invisible hand of the market, capitalism ensures that resources are distributed according to consumer choice. No firm is rewarded for producing goods that people dont desire.
- Dynamic Efficiency, firms in a capitalist system need to respond to the flux in consumer preferences and respond according to the new consumer trends. This improves and maintains their efficiency over time.
- Capitalism chooses to allow the markets to guide sectors of the economy separately precisely because a failure in one part of the economy will be offset or insulated from the rest of the economy while a failure in a socialist government brings down the entire system due to the lack of diversity. Eventually the socialist system becomes so inefficient that forced labor becomes necessary for the survival of the state, precisely what happened in many of the socialist/communist regimes of the past. Socialism believes that capitalism harms millions due to the cyclical nature of an unplanned economy and that a planned economy can foresee and prevent problems from happening.
- Capitalism is an internally stable economic system, in that it is consistent with human behavior. People understand that life is not fair - there's no "free lunch". You have to work to survive, and only the lucky who manage to thrive within the socio-economic matrix make it to the top. As long as there is a belief/hope that one can advance in the system, there is an incentive to participate.
- Capitalism is also externally stable, in that survival in a capitalistic system requires innovation and flexibility to keep up with the changes in supply and demand. Such a system is generally prepared to deal with the influx of competition from external sources
- Large populations are likely to be diverse, which is beneficial to healthy capitalistic systems.
- Large, diversified societies tend to gravitate towards hierarchical social systems; capitalism easily adapts to such structures.
Pros and Cons of Planned Market Economy/Communism/Socialism
Pros:
- Communism is an internally stable economic system, in that those that participate benefit and those that don't are culled - creating an incentive to participate.
- In environments with plentiful resources, socialism provides all members with their survival needs, creating a stable social environment.
- Freedom from work provides opportunity for some societal members to explore non-economically-productive pursuits, such as pure science, math and non-popular arts.
Cons:
- Large or geographically broad populations tend to be diverse, making it difficult to maintain a common goal or set of rules for shared effort and resources.
- Large, diversified societies tend to gravitate towards systems of hierarchy, reducing the perception of fair distribution of work and resources - which can destabilize a communistic society.
- Allowing an influx external culture increases the likelihood of destabilizing the homogeneity of the society. As such, communistic systems tend to block out external cultures and exclude outside competition, weakening the system's ability to learn from, or compete with, external economies.
- Since there is no culling and no economic advantage to working harder, socialistic systems provide no inherent incentive to participate. This makes socialism internally unstable.
- Due to a lack of incentives, socialistic systems tend not to be competitive, making them externally unstable.
- In times of scarcity, resentment of non-economically-productive members of society increases, causing a destabilizing effect on the society and economy.
- No freedom of choice for producer or consumers
- The system is too rigid to adjust when changes occur, this can result in shortages.
- Planners cannot detect consumer preferences, shortages, and surpluses with sufficient accuracy and therefore cannot efficiently co-ordinate production
- Enterprises tended to be oriented toward increasing quantity of output but not quality
- political repression
So, there you have it, take your pick. I pick free markets. I don't want the government deciding what job I will work, what resources I need, how much of them I will receive, how much money I can make, what products will be available to me, or the quality of those products. I don't and hopefully you don't want the government making all the decisions for you. This is the beauty of the free market. By spending my dollar that I work for in the job of my choosing, I help control supply and demand and the government has nothing to do with it. I make the choice. I choose where I want to live, where I want to go to school, where I want to work, for how much money I want to work for, how much of what product I can have, where I go in society, how rich or how poor I may be.
At the end of the day there is risk involved, buy whoever told you freedom was free was lying to you. There are risks that go along with the free market economy, but in light of the advantages of it, it is obviously much more preferable than planned market economy. The disproportionate pro/con ratio alone should show well enough which system stands, and which one falls.
History has shown us the success rate of planned economies, which is precisely why that system is all but dead today. Look back at the countries where the planned economies have been tested and failed. The list consists of The Soviet Union, China, Vietnam, Cuba, North Korea, Laos, Cambodia, Bulgaria, East Germany, Poland, Hungary, Romania, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia. While some of them still operate under some form of planned economics, the quality of life in all those places past and present is nowhere near the standard that we in American have grown accustomed to, and it can not be achieved in any other economy than one which utilizes the free market the way Capitalism does.
Definitions:
Free Market/Capitalism
A market economy based on supply and demand with little or no government control. A completely free market is an idealized form of a market economy where buyers and sells are allowed to transact freely (i.e. buy/sell/trade) based on a mutual agreement on price without state intervention in the form of taxes, subsidies or regulation.
an economic system in which prices and wages are determined by unrestricted competition between businesses, without government regulation or fear of monopolies.
Planned Market/Communism
An economic system in which the government controls and regulates production, distribution, prices, etc.
A type of economy in which some central authority makes a wide range of decisions pertaining to production and wages.
A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.
Pros and Cons of Free Market Economy/Capitalism
Cons:
- Inequality, there tends to be a rise in inequality as benefits of capitalism are not equitably distributed. As wealth tends to redound to a small percentage of the population, the demand for luxury goods is often limited to a small percentage of the workforce, one of the main capitalism disadvantages.
- Monopoly behavior, another disadvantage of capitalism is that firms gain monopoly over power in a free market allows and exploit customers by charging higher prices. They often pay lower wages to workers.
- Because of the inequality of wealth in a truly Capitalist society with no Government welfare great poverty is bound to occur. Leading to homelessness, slums, disease, etc; this will further lead to forced migration. This will expand the problem to bigger cities too. Another disadvantage of capitalism is that there is limited government control.
Pros:
- Buyers are free to purchase any commodity which they like and in whatever amounts. The seller of a good or its producer can also produce whichever product they want to and also increase the capacity of any individual commodity depending upon the forces of the market. Producers are free to undertake the risks and rewards associated with increase in production. There is no state intervention in the functioning of the forces of the market.
- One of the biggest advantages that a market-oriented economy enjoys is the determination of a unique price determined by the demand and supply in absence of any monopolistic or oligopolistic influences. The decision of what to produce, for whom to produce and in what quantities is taken by the market forces and not determined by the state. The role of the state is limited to ensuring proper transparency in the prices charged by the sellers of the concerned commodity. Prices also have the function to allocate and distribute a countrys resources.
- With little interference by the government, problems like corruption, lack of incentives and poor information do not arise. We end up with these problems only when governments attempt to control the economy. This is one of the main benefits of capitalism.
- Successful Production, one of the advantages of capitalism is that as firms have incentives to be efficient in production, in a market system, cutting costs, improve competitiveness and productivity are their top priority. They will go out of business if their efficiency and productivity fails.
- Cost effective allocation of resources Being the invisible hand of the market, capitalism ensures that resources are distributed according to consumer choice. No firm is rewarded for producing goods that people dont desire.
- Dynamic Efficiency, firms in a capitalist system need to respond to the flux in consumer preferences and respond according to the new consumer trends. This improves and maintains their efficiency over time.
- Capitalism chooses to allow the markets to guide sectors of the economy separately precisely because a failure in one part of the economy will be offset or insulated from the rest of the economy while a failure in a socialist government brings down the entire system due to the lack of diversity. Eventually the socialist system becomes so inefficient that forced labor becomes necessary for the survival of the state, precisely what happened in many of the socialist/communist regimes of the past. Socialism believes that capitalism harms millions due to the cyclical nature of an unplanned economy and that a planned economy can foresee and prevent problems from happening.
- Capitalism is an internally stable economic system, in that it is consistent with human behavior. People understand that life is not fair - there's no "free lunch". You have to work to survive, and only the lucky who manage to thrive within the socio-economic matrix make it to the top. As long as there is a belief/hope that one can advance in the system, there is an incentive to participate.
- Capitalism is also externally stable, in that survival in a capitalistic system requires innovation and flexibility to keep up with the changes in supply and demand. Such a system is generally prepared to deal with the influx of competition from external sources
- Large populations are likely to be diverse, which is beneficial to healthy capitalistic systems.
- Large, diversified societies tend to gravitate towards hierarchical social systems; capitalism easily adapts to such structures.
Pros and Cons of Planned Market Economy/Communism/Socialism
Pros:
- Communism is an internally stable economic system, in that those that participate benefit and those that don't are culled - creating an incentive to participate.
- In environments with plentiful resources, socialism provides all members with their survival needs, creating a stable social environment.
- Freedom from work provides opportunity for some societal members to explore non-economically-productive pursuits, such as pure science, math and non-popular arts.
Cons:
- Large or geographically broad populations tend to be diverse, making it difficult to maintain a common goal or set of rules for shared effort and resources.
- Large, diversified societies tend to gravitate towards systems of hierarchy, reducing the perception of fair distribution of work and resources - which can destabilize a communistic society.
- Allowing an influx external culture increases the likelihood of destabilizing the homogeneity of the society. As such, communistic systems tend to block out external cultures and exclude outside competition, weakening the system's ability to learn from, or compete with, external economies.
- Since there is no culling and no economic advantage to working harder, socialistic systems provide no inherent incentive to participate. This makes socialism internally unstable.
- Due to a lack of incentives, socialistic systems tend not to be competitive, making them externally unstable.
- In times of scarcity, resentment of non-economically-productive members of society increases, causing a destabilizing effect on the society and economy.
- No freedom of choice for producer or consumers
- The system is too rigid to adjust when changes occur, this can result in shortages.
- Planners cannot detect consumer preferences, shortages, and surpluses with sufficient accuracy and therefore cannot efficiently co-ordinate production
- Enterprises tended to be oriented toward increasing quantity of output but not quality
- political repression
So, there you have it, take your pick. I pick free markets. I don't want the government deciding what job I will work, what resources I need, how much of them I will receive, how much money I can make, what products will be available to me, or the quality of those products. I don't and hopefully you don't want the government making all the decisions for you. This is the beauty of the free market. By spending my dollar that I work for in the job of my choosing, I help control supply and demand and the government has nothing to do with it. I make the choice. I choose where I want to live, where I want to go to school, where I want to work, for how much money I want to work for, how much of what product I can have, where I go in society, how rich or how poor I may be.
At the end of the day there is risk involved, buy whoever told you freedom was free was lying to you. There are risks that go along with the free market economy, but in light of the advantages of it, it is obviously much more preferable than planned market economy. The disproportionate pro/con ratio alone should show well enough which system stands, and which one falls.
History has shown us the success rate of planned economies, which is precisely why that system is all but dead today. Look back at the countries where the planned economies have been tested and failed. The list consists of The Soviet Union, China, Vietnam, Cuba, North Korea, Laos, Cambodia, Bulgaria, East Germany, Poland, Hungary, Romania, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia. While some of them still operate under some form of planned economics, the quality of life in all those places past and present is nowhere near the standard that we in American have grown accustomed to, and it can not be achieved in any other economy than one which utilizes the free market the way Capitalism does.
The Roid Rage
Getting Noticed By Management
I accidentally posted that twice, just realized it, deleted the text to correct the problem, disregard this message.
That took a while to read through, but it was actually well written Game Rage. Good on you for showing what the pros and cons are for both sides, and good information backing up the Free Market. I give you 45.
Siv, you had a good opening post, had the good classic example, hard to say much was bad. I give you 25, because you did not debate on the issue with Game Rage.
Game Rage 45-25 Sivs
Siv, you had a good opening post, had the good classic example, hard to say much was bad. I give you 25, because you did not debate on the issue with Game Rage.
Game Rage 45-25 Sivs
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