Week 1 - MRC vs. The Sign Guy Open

FromTheSouth

You don't want it with me.
This thread is for the debaters only. It will remain open until Sunday at 6 PM CST.

MRC will be affirming the topic.

Resolved: The rights of the individual to join exclusive, voluntary associations outweighs society's goal of eliminating discrimination.
 
So who goes first? Myself? In that case, I'll just sum up a few points and wait for the inevitable barrage.

The rights of the individual to join exclusive, voluntary associations outweighs society's goal of eliminating discrimination.


I'll just dumb it down to my understanding of it then shall I? Basically, my understanding of the topic is that the ability for someone to be able to join an organization and be able to belong somewhere is more important than getting rid of discrimination, hence, letting everyone join. So here are a few points that I think supports this:

1. Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Drafted in, oh I don't know, 1948, this is a declaration made by the UN after WW2 in order to describe the basic rights that every human being should be entitled to. There are 30 articles in this document, and is classed as being the most translated document in the world, if you can believe Guinness World Records. But why just waste time with this, when I should be explaining how it affects my argument. Well, article 20 states:

Article 20 of the UDHR said:
Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.

Bam! Right here, in the universal declaration of rights, it says that everyone should be entitled to belonging somewhere and being a part of something, be it an organization, a club or just a committee. It says that it is within the rights of every human being to be able to come together to discuss and promote thoughts and ideas. Isn't that in the US Constitution? Regardless, here we are. But whats this? What was Article 1 in the UDHR you ask? Well lets see:

Article 1 of the UDHR said:
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Oh no! Sign Guy, you must think you have me foiled! Right there, the first article on the list describes a fight against discrimination! Well, I am going to play this on my side of the court. Here, we have the UN clearly putting these two articles together in order to use them in unison. In order to eliminate discrimination, a sense of community must be established, and by having exclusive, voluntary associations, this can be done. A sense of togetherness which is established by utilising ones right to have a place to belong to is indeed crucial to the breaking down of barriers.

Oh yeah. That word. Exclusive. This however, does not mean a necessarily bad thing. "Exclusive" can often be used divide people and segregate, but I don't believe this is always the case. In fact, Exclusive can be used in order to help break down the barriers of discrimination. Indeed, having Womens only or Men only organisations are crucial in the functioning of society, but having an exclusive organisation can also be utilised in order to keep out those who would wish to do wrong and discriminate. By excluding the hatemongers and naysayers, exclusiveness can be used to help discrimination rather than hinder.

2. Unions

This is pretty tied in with the previous paragraph really, but I just wanted to use it as an example. Workers unions are are important part of society, ensuring equality for workers and employers alike. Are these unions not exclusive only to workers? Are they not voluntary organisations? However, do these unions not lobby for the rights of every worker, fighting against a discrimination of say, class? Here, I wanted to demonstrate how exclusive voluntary organisation does not necessarily connotate to discrimination. It isn't all country clubs.

3. Ideologies

Lets go a hypothetical situation then shall we? We live in a village where the council rules over all. They say what happens and when. Only the sons of council members can become future leaders, even if they don't want to be one. This leads to the council being vindictive heirs who rule badly. No one is allowed to join or have any input on the direction of the town and thus, the village falls into ruin.

So we have a single track minded council who won't take any new members, nor take and advice. Imagine if we in the world were like the village, and were not able to join these voluntary organisations. If we did not have the freedom of association, how would we express and defend common ideaologies that are for the greater good? With the freedom of association, we can align ourselves with people of similar views in order to stand up for change, instead of standing alone against a barrage of attack.

By being able to propagate our ideas with others, we are thus able to tackle a larger range of issues, dealing with not only discrimination but also other social issues and enact change through association. Social issues such as poverty, pollution and addiction, all severe social issues could be dealt with, alongside fighting against discrimination. Thus, the rights of the individual to join exclusive, voluntary associations outweighs society's goal of eliminating discrimination.

Your turn brah.
 
Well, here I go. I hope I don't completely screw this up.

The rights of the individual to join exclusive, voluntary associations DOES NOT outweighs society's goal of eliminating discrimination.

Discrimination is a bad thing, can we all agree? It is wrong, and needs to be eliminated. But by creating some of these exclusive, voluntary asscociations, we create even more descrimination. One of the most well-known "exclusive, voluntary associations" in the world is the epitome of racism and discrimination: The Ku Klux Clan, or the KKK. The Klan is been forever known for hating blacks, and back in earlier times, like the 50's, they were known for killings and lynchings, among other horrible actions torwards blacks. This "exclusive, voluntary association" caused much pain and discrimination torwards blacks.

Now, I'm sure many of you would say you have a right to voluntarily join a political group, and you could liken a political group to an exclusive group. Now, there is a political group, probably less widely known than the Klan was for their activities, known as The American Nazi Party, or ANP. The groups main goal, you ask? To revive Nazism in the United States. Now, may I ask you, has there ever been a more racist, discriminating group in history than the Nazis. The Nazis, who without any regret or remorse, killed 6 million Jews during the Halocuast. Now, do you think that an individual's right to join the Klan, or this political party, with the Nazis and the Klan being, arguably, the two most discriminating groups in all of history, outweighs society's goal of eliminating discrimination? Because I sure don't.

Now, let's turn to the Constitution of the United States of America. Our constitution cleary states and defines citizenship. It states:

Originally posted by Section 1 of the 14th Amendment
ll persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Now, by forming exclusive, voluntary associations, don't you think that we "abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens"? I'm pretty sure by saying that "well, this club is exclusive, and we aren't going to let you in because you're too fat/too skinny/too tall/too short/black/white/mexican/asian/jewish/christian/muslim" or any other possible difference you can think of is depriving this citizen his/her privileges or immunities that they are guaranteed. I kind if liken it to cliques in high school. If you aren't poular, you can't hang with us. If you don't dress a certain way or like a certain type of music, then you aren't cool and can't be a part of this group. May be two different secnarios all together, but you can liken them in at least this comaprison

So, at the end of the day, I argue that The rights of the individual to join exclusive, voluntary associations DOES NOT outweighs society's goal of eliminating discrimination.
 
MRC wins this round on my card.

TSG tells us why the KKK and the Nazi Party are bad, and they are. He never tells us how letting people into those organizations would make the world better. He also never tells us how belonging to the organization leads directly to violence. True, some members of the group do bad things, but, by and alrge, both of those groups these days are neutered versions of what they used to be.

Furthermore, MRC points out that we all have individual rights, and that many EVO's provide service to the community. Just because the two that The Sign Guy mentioned don't, they are the extremes.

Guys, if you don't get to these debates early in the week, then I have to judge based on some opinions. MRC never had a chance to respond to The Sign Guy, and that wasn't his fault. I had to apply parts of his post to TSG's and it was a mess.

Also, I said that punctuality isn't a judging criteria, but if you wait until Sunday, you limit the debate. I did not decide the round based on that, but it does punish you in the point category.

I give MRC 38 points for his wiritng and timliness.

I give the Sign Guy 25 points.
 
Alright mateys, I have to give this one to MRC as well. I don't want to get massively into this, but I felt MRC took the topic in a much broader sense, though still not perfect. I like where TSG took his stance, but felt it was just too limiting to get the dubya. As FTS said, you just took 2 extreme's which sort of hurt your stance in my opinion.

I'll admit, this was a difficult topic and you both handled it well; it took me a minute to realize just what the hell was being argued but you've both given me great points to go with. I scored it 32 MRC and 29 TSG.
 
Winner: MRC

Sign Guy went with the obvious of the KKK and the Nazi's, but didn't go much further than that. MRC was able to use what I presume is a very important document, and use it to support his side and refute the other side, I believed him more.

Points:

MRC - 38
SG - 27
 

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