WCW Region, Osaka Subregion, Second Round: (6) Mick Foley vs. (11) Chris Benoit

[klunderbunker]

This is a second round match in the WCW Region, Osaka Subregion. It is a standard one on one match. It will be held at the Osaka Prefectural Gymnasium in Osaka, Japan. Assume one week has passed since the previous match.

#6. Mick Foley

Vs.

#11. Chris Benoit

​

Polls will be open for three days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[Tastycles]

Eghads. Foley is everything Benoit wasn't, entertaining, charismatic and connected to the audience. I said this elsewhere, and I'll say it again. Nobody was invested in Chris Benoit the man, only the wrestler. Chris Benoit made you feel like you'd seen a really good wrestling match that often Chris Benoit had just lost. Mick Foley made you feel happy/sad/amazed/disturbed etc. Foley is a world champion more times than Benoit, and at times of peak. Foley was the face who wrested the title off the corporation before Austin did. Benoit won it in WWE's experimental 2004 and WCW's catastrophic 2000.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

I was invested in the man through the wrestler. Foley may have had you invested with all his emotions in whatnot, but he lost just as much if not more. I don't give a shit what time period Chris Benoit won a title in. He was picked to go over both HHH and HBK in two consecutive PPV's. That's a hell of an accomplishment no matter what time period.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Both Tastycles & LJL made valid points. When it came to personality & charisma, Foley had it in spades. He made people care about him and invest their time emotionally. The hardcore stuff is what ultimately put him on the map, but it was his natural charm that ultimately kept him over.

Benoit was someone who got over purely through his stuff inside the ring. Benoit was a no frills wrestler who may well have been a massive star if he'd been around during the strong years of the territory days. As a star in the modern era, his lack of personality did hold him back. Stephanie McMahon was alleged to say during a creative meeting at one time something along the lines of "women' don't wanna fuck him and men don't wanna be him". I'd say it was more of a misnomer as I'm sure many men would want to be a built, athletic guy with a badass vibe and I'm sure Benoit got more than his fair share of the ring rats during his time.

While I personally preferred Foley as a character, he usually lost every big match he was in. Even though he had incredibly memorable matches against guys like Taker, HBK, Triple H & Edge; Foley lost almost all those matches. If we're going to make comparisons as to who accomplished more, it's difficult. Foley's biggest weakness against Benoit here, in my eyes, is that this isn't a hardcore match. As I said earlier though, more often than not, Foley lost big hardcore matches and Benoit isn't exactly someone who has no experience in that realm.

Outside of a hardcore environment, I see Foley has having less of a chance against Benoit. Benoit was stronger, faster, more agile, more athletic overall, a far better mat wrestler & high flyer. Foley's probably the tougher of the two.

I'm leaning towards Benoit here but I don't expect him to come out with the win here because too many people love Mick Foley, and rightly so.

 

[Big Sexy]

Chris Benoit is a better technical wrestler then Mick Foley. That's it. Foley is a better entertainer, more charismatic, better on the mic, has more memorable matches, has more big wins over big names, has had more success and achievements, and is a better family man (you know I had to get one family murder jab in there).

Foley was able to win the world title at the peak of the wrestling business and he has defeated the likes of Steve Austin, Undertaker, and The Rock. Shit, Foley has an even record with the Rock when it comes to singles matches. Benoit has never beat Austin, never beat Taker, and while he has beat the Rock once or twice, Rock has probably close to 10 one on one victories over Benoit. Even if Benoit hadn't murdered his family he was a 40 year old guy nearing the end of his career. The best success he may have had left in his future was an ECW title run or a run with a mid card title. Foley is just flat out better and wins here.

 

[Uncle Sam]

I like Mick Foley more than Chris Benoit - and not just because Benoit has a record of, you know, homicide. I liked Foley more even before that whole kerfuffle.

I do, however, seem to like Chris Benoit more than most. Maybe because I'm a drooling sociopath and footage of him doesn't give me Vietnam flashbacks like it apparently does everybody else. He was a very physical wrestler who was often very fun to watch - that much has already been noted.

In terms of the great wrestling ladder, there doesn't seem to be many who would contest Foley being several rungs above Benoit. But Benoit beating Foley in a match, when both were in their primes? The Rabid Wolverine, the man who made Triple H and Shawn Michaels tap at back-to-back pay-per-views, beating the man who infamously lost his most infamous matches? I could swallow that.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Chris Benoit is a better technical wrestler then Mick Foley. That's it. Foley is a better entertainer, more charismatic, better on the mic, has more memorable matches, has more big wins over big names, has had more success and achievements, and is a better family man (you know I had to get one family murder jab in there).

Foley was able to win the world title at the peak of the wrestling business and he has defeated the likes of Steve Austin, Undertaker, and The Rock. Shit, Foley has an even record with the Rock when it comes to singles matches. Benoit has never beat Austin, never beat Taker, and while he has beat the Rock once or twice, Rock has probably close to 10 one on one victories over Benoit. Even if Benoit hadn't murdered his family he was a 40 year old guy nearing the end of his career. The best success he may have had left in his future was an ECW title run or a run with a mid card title. Foley is just flat out better and wins here.

Foley's three title reigns lasted a month and a half total. Benoit's lasted five months.

I seem to remember a majority of Mick Foley's wins over those names you mentioned coming in gimmick matches or matches where there were interference by Paul Bearer and Stone Cold. Put Foley and Benoit in a regular match with no weapons and no interference, I say Benoit will walk out victorious.

Also, Benoit has that extra motivation for Foley screwing him out of two world titles. Your time is up, Mickles.

 

[Bernkastel]

Sorry LJL, I've got to go with Foley here. If we compare their primes - 1999 for Foley and 2004 for Benoit - Foley had the distinct edge in popular and he drew much more. He had some of the best numbers while working with the Rock, and managed to hold onto his relevance much longer, winning the title 2 more times.

Even at Wrestlemania 20 Benoit's spot in the match was arguably overshadowed by HHH's rivalry with Michaels... it irked me at the time why WWE chose to make that match a triple threat, and it was likely because Benoit didn't have the star power to carry the match to a good profit. Look what happened after he lost, he fell back down into obscurity.

Comparing the two outside of their primes we find that Foley has always been more relevant as big time player than Benoit. Face or heel/Stateside or Japan. That's why Foley should win.

 

[Mr. Artistic guy]

Few people have ever looked like Mick Foley in the wrestling business (Dusty Rhodes and .....?) and achieved such amazing success, especially as a face. Reason being is that Foley's charisma and the basic distinction between himself and every other performer was just that huge that it was allowed to happen. Whether or not he won or lost, whether he was delivering and infamous promo or getting the shit kicked out of him, Foley left everything he had in the ring each and every time. One of these two things can be said of Benoit. Not a slight on his ring work, but if you can't make people care about your character and demonstrate your charisma, you're not the complete performer.

The most important thing about working, whether a match or otherwise, is to get the fans engaged in what's going on. It doesn't matter how that happens. Whether you have to get tossed around like a rag doll like Foley was or if you're the one doing the tossing (backhanded), it all equates to the same thing in wrestling if it gets the same reaction. That's why I can say in all confidence, for all the mass of technical ability Benoit may have had, and I won't deny that he did, people cared far more for Foley in the ring than they did Benoit, and that includes when he returned even older and more out-of-shape and beaten up on occasions to fight Edge and Orton. Therefore Foley was the better worker. You don't like it? Argue with he reactions of the people. The one exception to that was Benoit's title win at WM 20 and the majority of that lustre of that match came off HHH and Michaels and the sheer suprise that WWE had pulled the trigger on Benoit, you know this deep down.

The wrestling world could have come and gone without Benoit ever being a world champion and it would have been basically unchanged, but if Mick Foley didn't exist in 1998-99? Totally different landscape. He forced his way up to the top with a body like 50-year old truck driver, and tangled with guys like The Rock, Austin, HHH and it all worked. That's what working is, creating a scenario where reality is distorted and people buy into it. In reality, there's no way a guy like Mick Foley could survive a minute in the ring with most guys. But in wrestling he was perhaps the toughest man of all time, and that pushes him over Benoit I'm afraid.

 

[wrestlingfan]

Foley, Benoit was a great in ring worker, no doubt about that but that's it a great in ring worker. Foley has had classic feuds and could play a variety of characters and personalities.

 

[nightmare]

Foley was\is entertaining and one tough bastard. Multiple characters played, etc. His goal? Give the fans a good show- win or lose.

Benoit? One man, one goal. Win the match by kicking your ass. Did not care bout making the fans laugh or sock puppets.

One of the best Hardcore wrestlers ever vs one of the best technical\submission wrestlers ever.



The match would be brutal as can be for a normal match. Foley would get in his licks, but in the end Benoit would make Foley tap. Foley may even just pass out or give himself the mandible claw instead.

Benoit wins.

 

[Brewski]

Foley is the bigger star and will always be more famous but Benoit just has a huge edge here in wrestling ability. As much as I love Foley's characters charisma can really only take you so far. He main evented a lot in his career and had lots of memorable feuds but the man lost... a lot. Seriously, he has to be like sub .500 all time. He's the most popular loser in the history of wrestling. It was a gimmick that worked and he was super popular but he's lost to everybody.

Benoit had a way longer title reign but it was at a weaker time. As far as championships in their prime Chris and Mick or an equal footing IMO. Chris is just a far superior wrestler and just outmatches Foley. To make it fair I can say that Benoit gets a cheap win by DQ which isn't unreasonable by Mick's standards.

 

[HBsam31]

Initially I would have went with Foley, and I still think he will win, but the arguments have convinced me to go with Benoit. Foley doesn't exactly have a great record in big matches, and Benoit would be at his best in a tournament like this. Benoit makes Foley pass out in the crossface for the win.

 

[deem]

God this is tough. Two more of my favourites here. For me, Benoit is the best wrestler of all time just in pure ability. Absolutely NAILED it. He got over in WWE on a huge scale with no character/personality or ability to showcase that, he was just a fantastic wrestler. No one else has ever done that on the same scale in a promotion watched by a mainly casual audience, tons of kids that don't give a shit about who wrestles well - Benoit managed it. Huge deal.

Foley is the most likable person in wrestling history and the best on the mic for me. Yeah, I don't even think I'm exaggerating there. Let me showcase a few of Foley's best promos.

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[youtube]6bj7BYGXYS4[/youtube]

I mean there's more. Way more. I could link at least five more that I adore. He completely GETS what it takes to make a wrestling feud, a believable character. I can't name anyone with as many layers as Foley has to his character.

So this is tough. One is a great wrestler, one is a great character. I'd take Foley overall - he shined during the WWF's toughest time to stand out from a crowd, plus has always been a decent worker whereas Benoit SUCKS on the mic.

Thinking about this in terms of a kayfabe match is really tough. A prime Foley isn't submitting. He just isn't going to. He could pass out, agreed. I'd say in his prime he was one of the toughest superstars to put away - able to survive numerous finishers, never submitting (you can find footage of him submitting, not at his peak though). He virtually couldn't be put away by Pedigrees and Rock Bottoms, by being thrown through and off cells, by 20 chairshots to the head - a diving headbutt isn't gonna do it. He can pass out in the Crippler, or he can be caught in a rollup. That's the ways that Benoit goes over, and both are feasible.

The region doesn't matter much here - both have had success in Japan and are super over there. Benoit as Wild Pegasus probably did a little more, but both styles are suited to the region and both guys equally popular.

I just can't split this. In that case, I tend to look at the bracket and see how I would logically book the tournament - next round is HHH. Arguably the biggest rival in the careers of either man and a perfect match for both. Marvellous.

I marginally prefer Foley. I'm not in any way effected by Benoit's end when I look at his wrestling career. Maybe that makes me cold, I have no clue. Without perfect information, I try not to judge anyone for their decisions though, who knows the state he was in. That said, I fucking love Mick Foley. I love everything about him and his performances in the industry.

I want to vote Foley and I think it's justified. He is better, a bigger star and probably more suited considering his inability to submit in this match. If I'm being entirely honest, I think I'm like slightly in favour of Benoit here when I picture the match but I really want to vote Foley and I think it's the logical decision too. Completely fine with Benoit going over.

edit: fuck this is my third edit. First I said I was voting Benoit despite wanting Foley, then changed because I wanted to vote Foley, now I've realised Benoit should go over here but I've already voted for Mick. I'm ok with that because its so close, but I'd marginally urge people to vote Benoit if they want the most likely winner of this match to go through. <3 Foley so much though so w/e

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

Based on an actual match, I have to give this one to the Crippler. Foley lost a TON of big matches and had moderate success in WCW, was a human pin cushion and test dummy for explosives in Japan, and had his most success during the Attitude Era. Benoit was a World Champion in both WCW, WWE, and in NJPW, which is in Japan... so Benoit's well-rounded and as sadistic as Foley back in the day.

I'm no longer a fan of his for the personal choice he made to murder his family and commit suicide, but I don't see a way Foley wins this cleanly. If this were in ECW, I could give the edge to Foley. But not in a regular wrestling match.

Benoit for the win.

 

[Dowdsy McDowds]

I'm going for Benoit here. He was a no frills character who could be as methodical as the best when it came to wearing his opponents down to either set-up for the crossface or headbutt. Couple that with his aggressiveness and tenacity and you have a guy that personified "it's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog" that made him so good to watch; if he was a face, you wanted to see him put the opponent through hell, and if he were a heel you hoped the face found a way to keep him down.

Foley is a tough son of a bitch, no question about that, but he is somewhat defined by the moments in matches that can be summed up as spectacular failures; HITC with Taker, pedigree'd into tacks by HHH at Royal Rumble 2000 and Edge spearing him through a flaming table at Mania.

Opponents of both these guys would know that they'd been in a fight for sure, but I think Benoit's tenacity would see him through although he'd be sore afterwards.



One thing I was wondering about that hopefully someone can shed some light on was how Foley generally fared against smaller guys? He seems to be of fairly average wrestling height, whereas Benoit was pretty much always fighting taller guys.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

For all you are who are projecting the matchups in the next round, remember this.

HHH's most difficult opponent may very well be Chris Benoit. He's pretty much owned HHH in 2004. Who would provide the biggest challenge to HHH? Foley or Benoit?

Think about it.

 

[Tastycles]

For all you are who are projecting the matchups in the next round, remember this.

HHH's most difficult opponent may very well be Chris Benoit. He's pretty much owned HHH in 2004. Who would provide the biggest challenge to HHH? Foley or Benoit?

Think about it.

What has that got to do with anything?

Billy Kidman put Hogan under more strain than Randy Savage, but were the two to fight for a spot in the next round against him, who would you be voting for?

 

[Brewski]

One thing I was wondering about that hopefully someone can shed some light on was how Foley generally fared against smaller guys? He seems to be of fairly average wrestling height, whereas Benoit was pretty much always fighting taller guys.

It's really bothering me that Foley is winning this right now. I didn't think it would at first but he's just so freaking outmatched here. The most similar match Mick has been in like this I think is against Ken Shamrock at the King of the Ring 99(maybe it was 97?). Now Ken Shamrock has a somewhat similar style to Benoit as a stiff, technical, submission wrestler but I think it's pretty clear that Chris is better. In a real fight, Shamrock all day, but in a wrestling match Chris wins. Anyway, the storyline at the time was that Mankind and Shamrock were feuding about who could make who tap out. The match itself was a regular match but boiled down into a submission match. The match ended with Ken putting on the ankle lock and Foley applying the madible claw to himself until he passed out instead of tapping to the pain. Shamrock won, but not by submission.

Benoit is far better than Shamrock and beats him in every way. If foley makes himself pass out from the ankle lock theres no question he would do the same for the crossface. There's no situation I can think of here why any face of Foley could win this match.

 

[nightmare]

Foley was good at getting wrapped in barbed wire, thrown off stuff, playing with sock puppets & pretending to have multiple personalities. Even as entertaining as he was, what did he really accomplish & how many matches was he in that were considered good? The RR match with Rock was good because of the chair shots that Foley got pummeled with (he lost). The HIAC with Taker (he lost).

Foley is good at taking punishment & making jokes.

Benoit was good at kicking ass & making people tap out.


Say what you will about his mid card time in WCW but his matches there were pretty damn good. When he jumped to WWE he put on a good show each night he was on the card- by being himself- The Crippler Chris Benoit. He went on to WM & won a title a month after being in the company & in another classic- he beat HHH & HBK (2 of the best in WWE history)

Benoit makes Foley tap out or pass out. Either way he wins.

 

[The Brain]

Foley was good at getting wrapped in barbed wire, thrown off stuff, playing with sock puppets & pretending to have multiple personalities. Even as entertaining as he was, what did he really accomplish & how many matches was he in that were considered good? The RR match with Rock was good because of the chair shots that Foley got pummeled with (he lost). The HIAC with Taker (he lost).

These are good points. If I'm booking this tournament I want to get Foley to the gimmick rounds so he can put on a great show and really put someone over big. Benoit is expendable early to get Foley to the gimmicks.

By the way, I'd say Foley had more good matches than you're giving him credit for. Triple H, Steve Austin, Shawn Michaels, Edge, Randy Orton, Sting, Vader.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

WZT Rule No. 14 - when in doubt never vote for the double murder suicider.

Just kidding, there was never any doubt. Foley was a brawling superstar who won the hearts and minds of the fans. Benoit chewed up air time and kept die hard fans from going to the lobby and buying better guys merchandise. He also won a title that only meant something to people who think there's still some nobility in pro wrestling and Canadians.

Easy vote Foley.

 

[Brewski]

These are good points. If I'm booking this tournament I want to get Foley to the gimmick rounds so he can put on a great show and really put someone over big. Benoit is expendable early to get Foley to the gimmicks.

What the hell is the point of this tournament if it's just booking who you like better? Foley get's to the gimmick round because he's good at gimmick matches? Cool lets just put Foley, Edge, Cena, and the Undertaker through since they're all popular and wrestle a lot of gimmick matches. The point of the gimmick round is to weed out weaknesses in top stars so Hogan/Austin/Rock doesn't win every year, not just because they belong there. No way Foley belongs there.

By the way, I'd say Foley had more good matches than you're giving him credit for. Triple H, Steve Austin, Shawn Michaels, Edge, Randy Orton, Sting, Vader.

...He's lost every sing one of those matches. All of them. He's never beat any of those guys except Sting in 2009 in TNA so that barely counts since their both way out of their prime. Those matches were good but that's really not the point.

I just wish somebody would just admit they're voting because they like somebody better. There is absolutely no argument for Cactus/Mankind/Dude Love/Foley to win this match.

 

[wrestlingfan]

What the hell is the point of this tournament if it's just booking who you like better? Foley get's to the gimmick round because he's good at gimmick matches? Cool lets just put Foley, Edge, Cena, and the Undertaker through since they're all popular and wrestle a lot of gimmick matches. The point of the gimmick round is to weed out weaknesses in top stars so Hogan/Austin/Rock doesn't win every year, not just because they belong there. No way Foley belongs there.




...He's lost every sing one of those matches. All of them. He's never beat any of those guys except Sting in 2009 in TNA so that barely counts since their both way out of their prime. Those matches were good but that's really not the point.

I just wish somebody would just admit they're voting because they like somebody better. There is absolutely no argument for Cactus/Mankind/Dude Love/Foley to win this match.

No, Foley has way better mic skills and charisma than Benoit, also a better character.

P.S. Was Sting-Foley a good match?

 

[Brewski]

No, Foley has way better mic skills and charisma than Benoit, also a better character.

P.S. Was Sting-Foley a good match?

His charisma and mic skills are great, so what? How does that make him a winning wrestler? Bobby Heenan was great on the mic, so is Captain lou, Jim Cornette, Paul Heyman, hell, Gene Okerland! Why don't we include managers and commentators because mic skills are the only good feature you need to win?

Sting-Cactus Jack in WCW was pretty good.

Sting-Foley at lockdown 2009 was terrible.

Still doesn't make Foley a better/winning wrestler