Waterboarding: It Works

LSN80

King Of The Ring
Following World War 2, The United States hanged Japanese soliders who waterboarded prisoners of the war. Fast-forward some 70 years, and the CIA, under authorization of the Department of Justice, confirmed having waterboarded at least 3 captured members of Al-Queda. This was during President Bush' administration, which did not consider water boarding to be a form of torture. In addition, 20,000 members of the United States military were confirmed to have been waterboarded during Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape(SERE) training before being deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan. This was during the Presidency of George Bush, who did not view waterboarding as a means of torture, but rather, interrogation.

This changed under the Administration of President Obama, who banned the usage of Waterboarding as a means of interrogation. He cited it as being cruel and unusual torture, and not "In line with the principles that our nation was founded on." There remains strong, yet unconfirmed speculation that SERE is still using waterboarding in training, not as a form of torture. It also has been approved at some Universities across the country for experimental purposes as to its emotional and psychological effects on test subjects.

So, if you're asking yourself in any way, "What is waterboarding?", you can read about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding

Or, you can watch as the recently deceased and arguably the world's most renowned atheist, Chistopher Hitchens, voluntarily undergo Waterboarding himself. Hitchens did it to explore the distinction between resistance training, and infliction for torture/interrogation.

[YOUTUBE]4LPubUCJv58[/YOUTUBE]

So why am I bringing this up now, of all times? Quite simple, actually. After being contacted a month ago by my former advisor and mentor while getting my doctorate(and to vigorous protests from my wife and family), I underwent the process of being waterboarded myself on Thursday. After undergoing a doctor's evaluation to ensure I didn't have asthma, I signed the necessary paperwork that informed me of the possibility of this causing emotional or psychological harm to myself, with both short and long-term possibilities. Finally, I signed a notarized document agreeing to answering a series of questions when I was up to it, acknowledging my willingness to undergo the procedure for a second time if I refused to answer any and all questions.

Essentially, I'm part of a doctoral thesis that studies the effects of short-term torture/interrogation techniques upon one's psyche, and its viability in extracting information. When I say short term, I mean incredibly short-term, as I lasted 1 minute, 46 seconds before pressing the panic button that had been placed.

The experience is one I'll remember for a lifetime. First, I was hooded, where I was lead down a(obviously) dark hallway. I was then picked up forcefully and placed on a large wooden board, where I was immediately strapped down by both my arms and legs, immobilizing myself. I was then given a panic button to press when I wanted it to stop. I remember reading about people undergoing this while loud, obnoxious music was playing, but I avoided this, thankfully. In my case, the next thing I remember is water continuously being poured onto my face. I tried to hold my breath, but the water quickly filled my nostrils. Attempts to breathe out were met with more water filling my mouth and lungs. I was able to spit small parts of the water out, but the water came in faster then I could get it out. After what seemed like an eternity of attempting to fight, I pressed the panic button after a whopping 1 minute, 46 seconds, where I was immediately given oxygen by emergency personnel, had my blood pressure taken, and was checked on by a doctor.

A half-hour later, I was lead to a room to answer questions, both about my personal life and my therapy practice. I was hooked up to a lie detector machine, which was really unnecessary, as I would have given them my daughter for keeps in the moment if it meant not having to undergo Waterboarding again. Some of the questions were uncomfortable in nature, but I answered them readily to avoid the experience again. In a month and 3 months respectively, I'll return for follow-up with the two doctoral students who are doing their thesis on this.

So why did I do this? Well, the selfish part of me did it for the money, which was a decent sum. But I also wanted to personally explore which Administration was right: Is it Bush, who believed that it was a form of effective interrogation? Or is it Obama, who believes it to be a form of unnecessary torture? Perhaps it's both. I was willing to say or do anything if it meant not being waterboarded again, making it an effective interrogation. But the feeling of drowning were what caused that,which could effectively classify it as torture as well. I don't feel any significant mental or emotional distress as a result, but reactions like those can be delayed. My lungs do burn and I feel like I'm struggling for breath every once in awhile, but it's only been two days. Perhaps for me to fully answer this, I'll need to wait a month or three.

But i want to hear from all of you regarding this:

If you had to choose one, would you side with the Bush Administration, who consindered Waterboarding to be "effective interrogation"? Or do you side with the Obama Administration, and consider this to be "unnecessary torture"?

Are there any circumstances under which you would agree to be Waterboarded, given what you know about it?

Other thoughts on this subject matter are welcome here.
 
I'm going to base this on an interview I heard from Jesse Ventura, who was also waterboarded in Navy Seal school.

In his words, "you give me a waterboard, Dick Chaney and one hour and I"ll have him confessing to the Sharon Tate murders (famous series of murders committed by the Manson Family)". I've never been waterboarded, but if it's as bad as I've heard it is, I know I'd be saying whatever the person doing it wanted to hear to get it to stop, and I think that's where the flaw lies.

If you're using this on someone that you think has secrets, obviously you're not 100% sure what those secrets are. What's going to stop them from lying to get out of it? If they're trained well enough, they can keep their stories straight. A teacher of mine was in the Army and told a story about how his unit made up a big elaborate story about an underground base and an underground city to tell if they were being tortured. Now the story was totally made up, but how would someone that captured him know that?

Torture is used in war/military conflicts right? I haven't read the Geneva Conventions, but I've never heard a law that says it's a war crime to lie. That's my biggest issue with waterboarding: what proof do you have that what they're saying is the truth? You could get someone to say whatever you wanted to hear if you put them through enough and while they "confess" to something, how do you know it's true? That's where it fails in my eyes.
 
Oh dear. If you ever wanted to get information out of me, waterboarding would definitely be the best way. In my eyes, drowning is the worst possible way of dying. That last moment where you have no other option except breathing in all the water must be awful. Seeing your body make a decision that you so don't want to do but, have no option frightens me. You could shoot me, drop me from the Burj Khalifa, burn me with match sticks, slit my throat, feed me cauliflower, but drown me? Fuck off. I'd never willingly agree to such a ludicrous idea! Props to you for having the balls to do it, anyway, especially with a new-born child too.

Anyway, to answer your other question, LSN. I don't really agree with torture, anyway, so that's just a slot in Obama's pocket already. As for whether it's effective or not, like I said before, I would tell you I crucified Jesus if that's what you wanted to hear whilst you were waterboarding me. So, in hindsight, it's probably not the best way to get real information out of anyone. I think the best way to do that is through threatening loved ones. But, then again, I'm not Jack Bauer so I'm probably not in the best position to say.

I originally thought waterboarding was that sport where you snowboard on water. Needless to say, I was pleasantly surprised when instead of seeing long-haired dudes do flippy shit to impress chicks, I saw a man getting water forcefully rammed down his throat in the video. Turns out I am a horrible person afterall. Or I just don't like flippy shit.
 
Theres a debate on this?

You make a guy or gal think they're drowning, of course its fucking torture, it'd be kinder to just tie someone to a chair and beat the shit out of them for an hour. It's just another way of mentally breaking someone down thats seemingly justified because it doesnt leave any visible marks. Bring someone to the edge of when they think they're going to die and then bring them back, rinse and repeat (literally).

This is what annoys me about people, if your going to commit evil deeds for what you percieve as the greater good then at least have the balls to admit that they are evil, dont try to justify it as an effective teqnique.
 
What's going to stop them from lying to get out of it?

Each person to his own gifts. As LSN80 said, after almost two minutes of waterboarding, he had no inclination to lie to his "interrogators" because there existed the fear of being sent back to the torture chamber if he did. Yes, that sounds unlikely in his test situation.....to us..... but it probably was a real concern in his mind.

However, a person who had real secrets to hide might be more disposed toward trying to get out of the possibility of more torture by lying about it. But it depends on the individual to determine how much of it he could take and how big a risk he'd take to end it. Don't underestimate the power of sensory deprivation. Even after just two minutes of your entire world being the damn water, all of us would probably look to do anything to get out of it.

As to the question about which administration's view we favor, I'd love to hedge and say interrogators for our side might first try the threat of waterboarding to persuade enemies to tell them what they want to know. Perhaps, a short demonstration might be in order too, since most of them couldn't imagine the damage it could inflict until it's happening to them. But even as many folks would love to make sure the practice is never used because we don't like the idea of torturing human beings, I ask you this:

If you had two beautiful children who were taken and hidden away by kidnappers who were absolutely refusing to reveal where the kids were......and you had the kidnapper tied to a chair.......would you approve the use of waterboarding then?
 
Theres a debate on this?

You make a guy or gal think they're drowning, of course its fucking torture, it'd be kinder to just tie someone to a chair and beat the shit out of them for an hour. It's just another way of mentally breaking someone down thats seemingly justified because it doesnt leave any visible marks. Bring someone to the edge of when they think they're going to die and then bring them back, rinse and repeat (literally).

This is what annoys me about people, if your going to commit evil deeds for what you percieve as the greater good then at least have the balls to admit that they are evil, dont try to justify it as an effective teqnique.

The debate is this: When the Bush administration used Waterboarding in 2002-2003 on Al Queda members, they claim it stopped a terrorist attack that would have surpassed the 9/11 attacks. Be it torture or interrogation, was it worth it? As I stated earlier when I described my personal experience of being Waterboarded this past week, I would have told the truth however difficult or painful it may have been. It was by far the scariest two minutes of my life, but it was damn effective. I truthfully answered any and all questions asked of me, with legitimate fear of being subjected to it once again.

Again, it comes down to what you believe. Is causing the intense suffering of a few to potentially save lives worth it? Honestly, I don't know.

Yes, that sounds unlikely in his test situation.....to us..... but it probably was a real concern in his mind.
Having singed a waiver that I would undergo it once again if I didn't tell the truth(being hooked up to a lie detector), there's no probably here, Sally. I was absolutely terrified of the thought of going back. I would have given away my most intimate of secrets to avoid it. It truly was a legitimate fear in my mind. I realize now that they probably wouldn't have subjected me to it again due to how traumatic it was, but I wasn't thinking that way at the time. I truly was thinking I would do or say anything to avoid it once again.

If you had two beautiful children who were taken and hidden away by kidnappers who were absolutely refusing to reveal where the kids were......and you had the kidnapper tied to a chair.......would you approve the use of waterboarding then?
Without a doubt. Desperate times....Desperate measures. Personally, I can't think of a better measure in this situation.
 
The debate is this: When the Bush administration used Waterboarding in 2002-2003 on Al Queda members, they claim it stopped a terrorist attack that would have surpassed the 9/11 attacks. Be it torture or interrogation, was it worth it? As I stated earlier when I described my personal experience of being Waterboarded this past week, I would have told the truth however difficult or painful it may have been. It was by far the scariest two minutes of my life, but it was damn effective. I truthfully answered any and all questions asked of me, with legitimate fair of being subjected to it once again.

Again, it comes down to what you believe. Is causing the intense suffering of a few to potentially save lives worth it? Honestly, I don't know.

Torturing one man to save the lives of countless innocents? Yeah, if thats the only way they could do it, and if its actually true then its worth it. All I ask is that if you do something like that, accept it for the evil act that it is, dont try to justify what your doing, dont go around pretending that it is an acceptable method of interrogation because it isnt, it's wrong, if a person thats trying to work for the greater good doesnt understand the difference between right and wrong himself then it is a very dangerous situation you've got on your hands.

History is full of tyrants who believed that they were right and that their actions were justified. Torture may have been necessary, but it wasnt right.
 
I'm going to base this on an interview I heard from Jesse Ventura, who was also waterboarded in Navy Seal school.

In his words, "you give me a waterboard, Dick Chaney and one hour and I"ll have him confessing to the Sharon Tate murders (famous series of murders committed by the Manson Family)". I've never been waterboarded, but if it's as bad as I've heard it is, I know I'd be saying whatever the person doing it wanted to hear to get it to stop, and I think that's where the flaw lies.

Exactly. There's a reason torture is illegal and it's not purely on human rights grounds, it's because it's incredibly unreliable. If they're guilty they can lie, if they're not guilty then not only are you torturing an innocent person but they're either incapable of telling you the truth or will make something up. It's a disgusting and pointless exercise in cruelty.
 
It's torture - it is effective, of course it is - as Mr Hitchins and you have already said you would say or do almost anything if it would make it stop. That makes it effective for getting confessions however the accuracy of a confession should be heavily scrutinized in any cases where it has been used.

Given the opportunity I honestly don't know if I would do it or not. (assuming of course it is in a controlled environment and not someone actually torturing me) the curious side of my brain is intrigued about how it would feel. Every single other part of me screams "FUCK NO" at the mere thought of it. I doubt I would be able to endure as you as you did however.
 
It sounds like a truly scary thing to experience, even if voluntary to participate in an experiment. I cannot hold my breath for very long so I doubt I would last long myself if I ever got waterboarded whether it be voluntary or not. I'm not sure where I stand on the issue. Controversial ways of getting people to talk while being interrogated such as torture can be effective in getting someone guilty to confess, but it can also be used to get someone innocent to confess something they never did. Someone who has been tortured too far will do nearly anything to get the treatment to end. I have mixed feelings about it due to how it potentially can be used for the wrong reasons. I would only support something like this in an extreme situation, where they have all but proven someone has done something horrible and they just need the verbal confession. Effective interrogation tool, but one that can be potentially be used for all the wrong reasons. As for ever agreeing to go through it myself? I might for part of an experiment just to see how scary it truly is, although I know for a fact I would not last very long if I did allow myself to get waterboarded.
 
I personally side with the Obama Administration on this, and no, I wouldn't accept to be waterboarded no matter the cause. There's some things in life I wouldn't do, and that is one of them.

On a study of waterboarding and other "tactics" on Al-Qaeda prisoners, I'd suggest the Black Banners by Ali Soufan. It's a very good book detailing his interactions with Al-Qaeda prisoners and cases (USS Cole, embassy bombings, 9-11, etc...), being one of the FBI's top interrogators and Al-Qaeda specialists. Broke quite a few high-level members during his time with the FBI from ~'97 to '06.

Something that struck me as incredibly surprising in the book was an Al Qaeda manual the FBI recovered after either the USS Cole bombing or in one of their stings on American soil, which went into incredible detail on how captured fighters were going to be tortured and how to avoid torture by building up an entire conversation of lies with the interrogators, giving small details that were either outdated or false, holding out as long as possible before breaking for those small details, etc...

Soufan summarizes several collaborated interrogations with the CIA, including one of the initial waterboarding/music blaring/stripped naked sessions, where every time the CIA and their contracted psychologist would start with their sessions, the subject would just shut down and refuse to interact, leaving Soufan to have to start over with the subject and slowly rebuild trust and break down their defenses until they started spilling information (notoriously, one of the interrogated men had left Al-Qaeda due to political and monetary reasons involving his pregnant wife, and Soufan used that resentment to have him break down in tears and confess everything).
 
First off, thanks for sharing your story LSN. Sounds like a very intense and scary scenario to say the least. I sure as hell would not volunteer for it.

Now, as for the debate at hand. It's tough, and there's really no clear answer, but my feeling on it is this: I'm for it, but only if measures are desperate, and we are sure that a key criminal/terrorist definitely knows information that needs to be coughed up. I know everyone's main problem with waterboarding is the possibility of the perp not knowing the info that he or she is being questioned about, and then just saying anything/lying to get out of the torture (and it is definitely a form of torture, as you ARE drowning, by definition). Well, then I think an amendment to it could be made- allow waterboarding, but only when officials are 99% confident that the perp is well-aware of a piece of vital information, and other interrogation methods have been exhausted. Because, for the most part, if the perp does know something, waterboarding is effective at getting them to confess it. A good example is the one posed above by a poster: if a kidnapper took your kids somewhere, should waterboarding be considered? By what I've stated, yes, because there's a 99% chance or better that the kidnapper knows where your kids are. On the flip side, if the perp may or may not know what is being questioned, and they are only being questioned/interrogated on just a notion that they might know something, then I don't think waterboarding should be considered because it then may not be effective, as they could simply spew out an answer even though they may not know anything. In other words, it should be used in situations involving a better chance they know (thus making it more effective), but don't bother to use it when they may or may not know (it being naturally less effective). At least that's how I'd regulate it.

As for the last question- the morality of it. Of course it's T-E-R-R-I-B-L-E. No way around it. But, let's be honest, it's not like it's being done to the 16-year-old down the street who gets caught pickpocketing candy from the 7-Eleven. By and large, it is done to murderous terrorists, notorious war criminals, etc. Guys that often deserve the death penalty. I don't have that big of a problem with it being used on those people, to be honest. I mean, after all, the majority of these potential waterboardees are on same bastard-level as the 9/11 hijackers. Would you have waterboarded those guys if one of them 'fessed up to the potential hijackings before they happened to get the full plot out of them in order to stop it and save those 3,000 parents/brothers/sisters/children?

Me too. The temporary suffering of monsters over the permanent saving of the innocent and good? Not much of a contest in my mind.
 
If you had to choose one, would you side with the Bush Administration, who considered Waterboarding to be "effective interrogation"? Or do you side with the Obama Administration, and consider this to be "unnecessary torture"?

KB pointed out an interview with Jesse Ventura as an example. Another example would be from Ali Soufran, Former FBI Supervisory Special Agent.
“From my experience – and I speak as someone who has personally interrogated many terrorists and elicited important actionable intelligence– I strongly believe that it is a mistake to use what has become known as the ‘enhanced interrogation techniques,’ a position shared by many professional operatives, including the CIA officers who were present at the initial phases of the Abu Zubaydah interrogation.”

“There is no way to know whether the detainee is being truthful, or just speaking to either mitigate his discomfort or to deliberately provide false information. As the interrogator isn’t an expert on the detainee or the subject matter, nor has he spent time going over the details of the case, the interrogator cannot easily know if the detainee is telling the truth. This unfortunately has happened and we have had problems ranging from agents chasing false leads to the disastrous case of Ibn Sheikh al-Libby who gave false information on Iraq, al Qaeda, and WMD.”

Would any member of Al Qaeda give up any information or even correct information if they were water boarded? Some say the interrogation techniques helped find Osama Bin Laden which if that were true, wouldn't we have found him years ago in a cave? No torture is an effective means of interrogation for America and I agree with President Obama that it should be illegal. It is a violation of the Geneva convention and if America is allowed to water board then it would be fair game for any other country.

Are there any circumstances under which you would agree to be Waterboarded, given what you know about it?
I wouldn't be waterboarded for any amount of money or even for the experience. Maybe if it was required as an exercise for CIA training, or if I was a journalist. It just seems like an awful experience. I'm afraid to go deep into the ocean or even a lake for fear of drowning. I wouldn't want to experience any form of torture and could only imagine what people have went through in Vietnam and Iraq. Bottom line is this is a form of torture that should be illegal because its barbaric and ineffective.
 
If you had to choose one, would you side with the Bush Administration, who consindered Waterboarding to be "effective interrogation"? Or do you side with the Obama Administration, and consider this to be "unnecessary torture"?

I think it may be effective in some cases,but most of the time it's just unnecessary torture used to make detainees admit to whatever charges they're facing. I mean,you said it yourself,you would have given them your daughter if it meant you didn't have to be waterboarded again. If someone waterboarded you enough times,you'd probably admit to being Jack The Ripper. It's like the line from Reservoir Dogs: "If you fucking beat this prick long enough, he'll tell you he started the goddamn Chicago fire, now that don't necessarily make it fucking so!" I don't see how waterboarding is any different from,let's say,genital mutilation or ripping out your fingernails. In terms of procuring information from detainees,its success rate is pretty much the same as other techniques (sleep deprivation,etc.)

Are there any circumstances under which you would agree to be Waterboarded, given what you know about it?

In a controlled environment like yours and Christopher Hitchens',I'd be willing to be waterboarded,just to see how it feels like. I've been in a situation where I nearly drowned once,so I may have some semblance of an idea of how it would feel like. Also,I can't really give an opinion on how bad waterboarding is until I've experienced it. I'd do it. I can guarantee that I be terrified,but I'd do it.
 

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