Vince Screwed Bret

[Steamboat Ricky]

Finished reading Bret's book this weekend, and it has led me to the conclusion that Vince screwed Bret.

a) Bret had a creative control clause in his contract that gave him power over his character for his last 30 days in the company.

b) Bret did not demand to walk out of the company having not been beaten. He said he would lose to Austin or Taker (even Brawler)...but not Shawn.

c) Vince made many references to the "time-honored tradition" that people leaving would put someone over and go out like that. Well, the time-honored tradition went out the window when Vince guaranteed Bret the creative control in his contract.

d) He said he'd put Shawn over if Shawn put him over. But Shawn would have none of that.

There are many other reasons that stem from Vince's dealings with Bret in previous encounters...but these are the prime ones.


I've read Bret's book, Shawn's book, watched all the videos, read Sex, Lies, and Headlocks, read Meltzer's reports, etc...and that's what I've concluded. I've long since been an advocate that Bret screwed Bret. But in fairness to Bret...having read his entire story...it all makes sense as to why he refused to do the job that night in Montreal.

Not only that...Vince screwed Vince. How could any worker ever trust Vince again? What does Vince have to back himself other than money and a monopoly on the business?

 

[drog2000]

With everything Bret did for WWF(E) he should have beat Shawn in Montreal and handed over the title Monday night like he Planned - It should have happened like Trish - she won her last match and then she walked out with her head held high.

Having said that for whatever reason Brett should have never left the WWE - he should have been their "franchise" player!

 

[ChaseDavis]

What else does he need?

In reference to the post, I've always felt that Vince screwed Bret not that it matters 12 years later but I think like you mentioned in the end Vince has hurt the business more than anything with his actions.

In reference to the quote. Vince needs a core audience. I for one spend more time following this website and forum then watch WWE programming. I have officially stopped watching. It is of my own curiosity that I still read the news and rumors to see what is going on. I have been watching since I was 8 years old. Now at 26 I'm no longer entertained with the programing. I'm still interested in wrestling as I find myself watching a segment here and there and finding myself wanting more. The problem is that there isn't much more. Vince has put all of his eggs in the PG demo and has left his core out in the dust. The reason why is because there aren't enough people out there willing to not watch the programming, not order the PPV's, not buy the merchandise. Until the fans are willing to do this Vince has no obligation to change anything. He's built his legacy there isn't much more he needs to do. The WWE may be destined to mediocrity until Shane takes over. If HHH/Steph takes over....

 

[supersayian]

this was wrong. Bret got Screwed yes but why not put Shawn over. Why the hell Would Vince want the Tittle to change on Raw. that is dumb. he is not going to let his top Star leave him in the dust going out on the biggest stage and winning and then say Fuck you WWE. that sounds wrong to me to so it goes both ways.

 

[Twanfusco]

From wot I've heard over the years, all sides to it, all involved could have acted a lot better but there is no real right and wrong here, my personal opinion is that vince has 2 look out for his company first and foremost, if its bad for business it has a ripple effect not only in maybe ratings ect but also he employs hundreds of ppl and if his business suffers then ppl lose jobs, obviously I'm over exaggerating the consequences here but wot I'm trying to say is vince wasn't just being selfish here, there was more 2 be lost, whereas for bret he wasn't losing much except a match and a title that wud mean nothing 2 him once he left anyway. It was bret worried about is legacy, it was vince worried about his company and in my personal opinion the company comes first as there are more ppl with something to lose. However its clear that vince shud have maybe been a bit more tactful. If u ran a company, had advertised a match for a ppv, one of the stars were leaving of course u'd want them to drop the title, but wot if they refuse to? The fans expect the match uve advertised, there'd b riots if u changed it last minute so wot do u do? Vince had no choice imo. Like I sed tho, no real right answer just opinions, an those opinions seem like they'll go on 4 a generation! Haha

 

[Big Daddy Fool]

With everything Bret did for WWF(E) he should have beat Shawn in Montreal and handed over the title Monday night like he Planned - It should have happened like Trish - she won her last match and then she walked out with her head held high.

Having said that for whatever reason Brett should have never left the WWE - he should have been their "franchise" player!

Trish wasn't the face of the company for a decade and wasn;t leaving to go to a rival wrestling company that had beaten the hell out of the wwe forever in the ratings.

Idk why the WWE didnt think about having a triple threat match with HBK pinning the third person which wouldn't be as bad as bret losing to shawn straight up. I know there are extenuating circumstances that prevented this like creative control but it wouldn't of been a half bad suggestions.

 

[Megadeth]

I to think Vince has always been to blame. People always debate HBK/Hart, but I think most of their real life heat was caused by Vince lying to both of them. Vince knew long before the match was set at Survivor Series that Bret was probably leaving. In fact Vince convinced Bret to leave because at the time, he couldn't afford Bret's contract and knew Bret could make a lot more in WCW. Vince knew Bret wasnt going to put HBK over yet insisted on it.

And for those arguing about it being dumb to have the title change on Raw, or not putting on the match they had been advertising, Bret's first WWF title win wasnt on PPV or even TV, it was at a house show (I have heard this is allegedly because Ric Flair refused to do put Hart over on TV, but I cant say that for fact.) Not to mention the way it ended at WM9 with the whole Yokozuna/Hogan thing. Then his second title reign he lost the belt to Bob Backland, only so Backland could lose it in a 8-second squash match at a house show to Kevin Nash. Not to mention Harts 4th title reign where he lost it the very next night on Raw. So considering that Bret had the whole Creative Control clause, it seems quite reasonable to me that they could have had Bret drop the title on Raw. Even if they wanted to keep Hart/HBK as the main event, they could have had Bret either lose to HBK on Raw if he was willing to, as I dont think the Raw before Survivor Series was in Canada, and Hart allegedly only refused to lose in Canada, or even if he still wouldnt do it that way, have a triple threat and let HBK pin whoever else and go into SS as champ, end the match in DQ, and be over with it. And even if that for whatever reason couldnt be worked out, it's not like it would be the first time they have changed a match with short notice. The whole reason HBK was the challenger storyline wise was because he beat the Undertaker in the 1st Hell in the Cell match with the stipulation of the winner being #1 contender for SS. So they could have let Bret loose to anyone, HBK still goes on to challenge them at SS.

They had plenty of other options as to what to do, and really it just boiled down to Vince not trusting Hart enough to not show up on Nitro the next night with the belt, which given their relationship, Vince should have never doubted Hart.

 

[Slam Master]

I just recently finished both of their books as well and have been debating this with everyone:

Yes, Vince did screw Bret, but there were a lot of underlying factors that went into this whole situation.

1. WCW was really causing financial problems to the WWF.

2. Bret wasn't going to be the top guy. Vince knew Bret wouldn't like this and Bret must have knew inside that his days were numbered as the top guy.

3. Bret didn't like the direction the company was going in, and was vocal about it.

4. Shawn Michaels was upset that Bret was offered the biggest contract when HBK was on top, that Bret used his leverage against the company, that Bret wasn't supportive of him, and that Bret was leaving to the competition that was killing his company (WWF) and felt it would be a bad business decision to let Bret go out on top. he felt Bret wasn't doing what he was supposed to do

5. HBK was on hard drugs that screw with your mind and perception of things. He was letting a lot of the things Bret was saying about the "Shawn Michaels in-ring character" and taking them personally as if Bret was verbally bashing him and working him over to get the best of him. He felt Bret was being mean, selfish, spoiled and unfair. These thoughts that HBK might have been a tad irrational due to the drug use.

6. The office played off of their issues.

7. HBK was never asked to job to Bret at WM13, it was only brought up that he work with him. Then he hurt his knee and it was out of the question. Bret took it as not wanting to return the favor which was false. HBK didn't appreciate that Bret accused him of faking the injury. That added tension to the two.

8. When Bret asked Vince what was going to happen if he stayed, he laid out situations where Bret would be losing to HBK more that winning and that Bret would be under the main event.

9. Vince basically destroyed the Hitman character in 1997 by turning him heel in the USA, then having HBK take his heat. There was no way Bret could regain the USA's support during that period when it was cool to be the a guy like Steve Austin or DX.


I'm sure both of the books have their biases. It's something that can be debated over and over, and it bothers me to think about the matches and programs these guys could have had. Bottom line, it was Vince's decision, Vince's company. That skyrocketed the company's turnaround, which is sad and ironic.

 

[ThePeoplesChampion]

is quite simple...vince had to do wat he had to do...he didnt trust brett to drop it he thought he would take the WWF title and dump it in the trash like wat happen to the womens title....which would drop the belt in value.....and another thing omg its was like hundred years ago...my god let it go for the love of god....and as i recall shawn has said sorry...which he shouldnt of had too he was just doing the right thing for the business....its bret holding the grudge....i mean its freaking wrestling here not that huge a deal now

 

[Razz]

Vince, Shawn and possibly some others screwed Bret. I love Bret Hart but I also like Shawn Michaels so let's all get over it. I do think Shawn should apologize. There was even talk in recent interviews where Shawn admitted this as one of his past mistakes. Also saying he would suggest Bret Hart as the possible person to nominate him into the HOF. That would be a pretty amazing event. Bret said he would think about it, if Shawn would apologize for everything. I don't know why Shawn doesn't just approach him somehow to apologize.

 

[loretta]

I can almost see why people would choose Vince's side in this never-ending debate but WWE leaves out important points that conviniently makes them seem better. Cjeck out these case and point rebuttals.

WWE Point
-They were having financial turmoil
Bret rebuttal
-WWE is in financial turmoil in November yet by February they are paying Mike Tyson MILLIONS for a few weeks of work

WWE makes it seem as Survivor Series would be Brets last appearance in WWE even though he was still on contract for another month so there were a lot of opportunities to still lose the belt

WWE makes it seem that Bret didn't want to do the time-honored tradition of putting others over by that I mean not losing the belt to anyone
-Bret said he would lose to Taker, Austin, Vader, Shamrock etc . He also said he would lose to Shawn outside Canada

WWE makes Bret sound greedy like he wanted to beat shawn even though the title match was going to be a DQ so he wouldn't have made Shawn submit or pin him

How could they be so dumb to think that bret would leave WWE with the belt? No one is more loyal than Bret. He practically threw away a lottery ticket the year before to stay with the WWE (He turned down a 9 million dollar WCW contract

He had creative control

To screw a wrestler with his own finisher after 14 years of service and one who gives you the best match every night, whose father has done so much for your company, who always put over people is a damn shame. Vince lied to Brets face which is bullshit. Just put all the cards on the table and something would have been worked out. Brets a reasonable guy unlike Shawn, he wouldn't throw a hissy fit.

There could have been another way, there's always another way. Look at summerslam 1999 when austin didn't want to put HHH over so they did a triple threat where mankind won and then he put HHH over the next night.

What could they have done with Bret and Shawn? At survivor series, Bret has Shawn in the sharpshooter when HHH and Rude come out bringing owen and bulldog out and ends in a brawl. On Raw the next night Shawn demands a rematch for the belt. Bret said he doesnt deserve one and if he wants one Shawn has to put something up on the line. Shawn says that WWE isn't big enough for both DX and the hart foundation so they wll have a 3 on 3 war (DX- Shawn, HHH, Rude vs Hart Foundation- Bret, Owen, Bulldog) where winning team not only gets the WWF belt but makes the other team disband. Bret says hart foundation is blood and a tight knit family and will have no problem disbanding the degenerates and accepts trhe challenge. The match is made for RAW in two weeks so will get huge ratings. Chyna holds Brets feet down while he is pinned by Shawn. New heel champion, no more hart foundation, major heat for DX, a way for Bret to leave. Everybody's happy and leaves the gate open to bret to return in the future. No screwjob, no mess.

 

[That's Just Weird]

Bret's major problem, along with most of the top guys in WCW (which led to its downfall) was the fact that no one had the performance as their first priority. What these guys need to realize is they are not actually the characters they are performing. Bret Hart is not actually Bret the Hitman Hart, and Bret the Hitman Hart should have done what he was told in the first place because Bret Hart is not Vince McMahon, the guy who makes the decisions.

It's like if you're on a play on stage, and you play the villain, and you complain to the director/writer of the play that you want the villain to kill the hero because you want to look good on stage. It doesn't make any sense.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

is quite simple

Not really.

vince had to do wat he had to do

Straight up lie and ruin his credibility with his talent pool?

he didnt trust brett to drop it

Trust means nothing when Bret has creative control in his contract.

he thought he would take the WWF title and dump it in the trash like wat happen to the womens title

See above.

which would drop the belt in value

WWE is clearly suffering from that activity. WCW really buried WWF with that move.

and another thing omg its was like hundred years ago...my god let it go for the love of god

So was the Civil War. People talk about it frequently. Same with the Bible, King Arthur, The Great Wall of China, The Odyssey, etc. I'll continue thinking about it.

and as i recall shawn has said sorry

Never really bashed Shawn in the OP, did I? Said Vince screwed Bret.

which he shouldnt of had too he was just doing the right thing for the business

He lied to Bret saying he knew nothing about it. Yes, that woould require an apology.

its bret holding the grudge

A well founded grudge.

i mean its freaking wrestling here not that huge a deal now

Wrestling was Bret's life. He grew up with it and made it his life's work. Definitely a big deal to him.

 

[JJYanks121]

Ah, the old Montreal incident.....such a great topic for debate. I'm going to try and bring new points to the table as over the years, I've read, watched, and seen about everything to do with this.

I'm going to state this so it's abundantly clear: I do NOT like Bret Hart. From everything I've read and seen I think he's a pain in the ass and a cancer to pro wrestling. I respect his ability in ring but there is much he didn't get about the business.

First off, we have the issue of Bret not wanting to drop the belt IN CANADA. Of course, they were in Montreal and he is Calgarian. That is the equivalent of Chicago born CM Punk not wanting to lose in LA because he's an "American hero". It's a lame excuse and it shouldnt' count for much. The argument I know I will get it "but Bret WAS a hero in Canada, he was only a heel in America", to which I have 2 rebuttles. 1-heroes can lose in the world of wrestling, it's what keeps it exciting. And 2, the fact that Bret insisted and had a hissy fit about turning heel and thus maintained his hero status in Canada was crap to begin with. I understand Bret was always a hero in Canada, but how much of Canada is WWE's fanbase? Bret was basing his career on what they thought of him which wans't fair. The dude thought he was on Hulkamania level which he was NEVER close to. Thinking otherwise is egotistical and stupid on his part.

The fear of Hart taking the belt to WCW may have been a little far fetched, however, hindsight is 20/20 so you can't take Bret at "I wouldn't have done that". Bischoff might have asked him to do it and for the right price, he just might have. You never know. To me though, this isn't an issue and really is a small part of the whole equation.

The main thing is, Bret always complained about Shawn, but you don't hear as much from Shawn's end about Brett. Reason being, and this is strictly a conclusion I have drawn, Brett was extraordinarily jealous of Shawn. HBK was a guy who just "got it". He understood the business, knew how to sell a move, a match, a storyline, and was willing to do whatever it took to make it to the top. Bret on the other hand always felt he was better than the business. When he first signed with WWE, he was given a cowboy gimmick and refused it, a rarity in the business. We all know our favorite attitude stars started with stupid gimmicks and put it hard work to grow out of it. Bret used his last name to bypass it. Then he finals get a singles push and feels he should have the "torch passed to him" without earning it. Hulk Hogan doesn't lose much, and certainly doesn't lose much at Wrestlemania. The only lose to that date he had was to Warrior I believe and Warrior's popularity was through the roof. Bret's was not. To ask for the same treatment is ridiculous. Shawn was busy working hard without a famous last name and eventually was at the forefront of the attitude era even before it started. His cocky attitude was something fresh and new, and something the fans were digging. Bret was stuck on "heroes vs. villains" and instead of wanting to grow with the company, decided to condemn it for changing. I will admit that at times, it was not kid friendly, but the audience at the time called for it and ratings and sales were never higher.

The truth is, Bret could have stayed with the WWE, but Vince wanted him out because he was not going to draw in the attitude era. He didn't want to change with the times and he wanted to hold grudges against guys without actually talking to them about it. I'm not saying the Montreal incident was handled well, but I will say that I don't feel sorry for a guy that wasn't so great to the business that made him and that stood 1 night of humiliation to make a huge paycheck.

Bret lost a match in a company he was leaving anyway! I guess he felt "betraeyd", but honestly, it never should have made him have a 10 year grudge. He lost matches before, move on!

 

[Loveless]

Bret Hart was an employee and as such, he should have done what he was damn well told. Creative control doesn't mean shit in this instance. He had creative control over his character, that does not mean he has creative control over the belt. Austin was being built for Mania, Undertaker had just lost to Shawn and was busy with Kane, no-one else was an option for the belt.

 

[wolvdog316]

Ya know what I find funny? Midgets who try to rollerblade. Know what else I find funny? People that say Vince screwed Bret, and then offer his Creative Control as one of the reasons.....Excuse me.....


LMAO HAHAHAHAHAHAH


What killed WCW? Creative Control, among other things. Creative Control RUINED WCW. Nash couldn't lose, Hogan couldn't lose, Sting couldn't lose, Hogan won't job. Nobody wanted to fight anybody outside of their 5 or 6 main event guys.

WCW nearly crippled WWE. With dirty tactics like announcing their results, making fun of their champions, getting talent 24 hours after appearing on WWE, having the Womens Champion throw the title in the Trash.

Folks, Vince was scared, he was Paranoid. He TRUSTED Hall, Nash, and Luger, and took their word on it. And they screwed him. Those were 3 of the most dominant WWE superstars in a 3 year span.

I think Vince thought that Hart would take the title to WCW. I think he felt there was NO loyalty left in the business, so why should he show some.

Was he wrong? Maybe. I felt Hart had better character than that, BUT I wasn't the one being lied too day in day out by Luger, Nash, Hall either. I wasn't the one seeing my company my family built, being destroyed by people that could care less about wrestling.

And Vince made it know he wanted the title to drop to Shawn in Canada. He knew he had to make Shawn an absolute beast of a heel if he was going to compete against WCW. And the title being switched on Raw was blah. This was the chance to maybe finally start competing against WCW. Well Bret didn't want to hear none of that. He said no, not in Canada. Well sorry Bret. WWE was failing, it was in a huge spiral, getting destroyed by WCW, and WWE needed a change. Something different.

Could Vince had handled that differently? You bet. But again, we are in no position to question if what he did was right or wrong, because it wasn't our familys company on the line, it wasn't decades of tradition on the line, it wasn't our souls on the line there.

Besides, Vince, by doing what he did, created the super heel he knew he needed. Himself. And with Austin, they carried the WWE into the Promised Lands by finally beating WCW.

So, if Vince DIDN'T do what he did, WWE is probably out of business. So again, HOW did Vince screw Bret?

 

[HBK-aholic]

.
a) Bret had a creative control clause in his contract that gave him power over his character for his last 30 days in the company.

He had reasonable creative control over his character. Which doesn't mean Hart gets to choose who the next WWE champion will be.

b) Bret did not demand to walk out of the company having not been beaten. He said he would lose to Austin or Taker (even Brawler)...but not Shawn.

I love how people talk about how immature and stupid Shawn was, then Hart says something like this and no one bats an eyelid. Hart was just as unprofessional as Shawn was, and this comment proves it. Who cares who he lost it to? What if McMahon didn't want Austin/Taker to have the belt at this time? That was NOT for Hart to decide. McMahon wanted Shawn to be the champion, Hart should have followed that.

c) Vince made many references to the "time-honored tradition" that people leaving would put someone over and go out like that. Well, the time-honored tradition went out the window when Vince guaranteed Bret the creative control in his contract.

As I said above, creative control over his character does not mean organising the rest of the company around him.

d) He said he'd put Shawn over if Shawn put him over. But Shawn would have none of that.

Why would Shawn put Hart over when he was leaving? That makes NO sense. And it isn't good business for McMahon to have the face of his company LOSE to the face of the rival company. All that shows is that WCW has better talent.

I've read Bret's book, Shawn's book, watched all the videos, read Sex, Lies, and Headlocks, read Meltzer's reports, etc...and that's what I've concluded. I've long since been an advocate that Bret screwed Bret. But in fairness to Bret...having read his entire story...it all makes sense as to why he refused to do the job that night in Montreal.

I think this was more about Vince vs. Bret than Shawn vs. Bret, but Shawn gets most of the heat due to thim being the one that was there. McMahon made a simple business decision, which could have saved him his company.

Not only that...Vince screwed Vince. How could any worker ever trust Vince again? What does Vince have to back himself other than money and a monopoly on the business?

Clearly, people still trust Vince. Most people realise it wouldn't have been necessary if Hart had done as he was asked by the guy who had arguably made him. And most realise he was doing what he thought was best for his company.

 

[Scott Free]

Ya know what I find funny? Midgets who try to rollerblade. Know what else I find funny? People that say Vince screwed Bret, and then offer his Creative Control as one of the reasons.....Excuse me.....


LMAO HAHAHAHAHAHAH

WWE Apologists that twist and turn to make excuses. I find them hilarious in their blind follower role, you know, it's funny and pathetic at the same time.
Let's examine the facts, shall we ?
Bret Hart was told there would be a DQ finish, they lied and organized another finish. They don't call it the "Montreal Screwjob" for nothing. Who lied and who got screwed is pretty much black and white. Want to rationalize, excuse or condone Vince's actions ? It doesn't matter, it's all afterthought, the fact remains Vince lied to Bret and screwed him over on the finish of career in the WWE. Bret jumping to WCW with the title didn't happen, so that's all BS, could have, might have mean absolutely squat . What happened is self evident, and even if you think Vince did the right thing, it doesn't change the fact that he lied and backstabbed one of his most loyal employees on live TV.

 

[[email protected]]

are we still on this I don't care if there is new material coming out in these new books, on tape whatever. It has been 12 friggin years all three parties have gotten over it for the most part, Bret has moved on, Shawn has moved on, and the WWE and Vince MAchmon have moved on. I think every one should just let this go. The only thing I can agree on is all three parties need to sit down and have along talk which is about 11 years over do... But if they weren't going to do it then it probably won't happen... and I know there have been many circumstances that have at least in Shawn (drugs, marriage new family) and Bret ( Family deaths, especially Owen, ) case that haven't allowed it to happen but there could have been at some point after, say in earlier part of this decade... But as I said if it wasn't going to happen then I doubt it ever will so I say let's bury the issue as a whole and get on with our lives, every one else has... Live in the now....GEEZ!!!!

 

[wolvdog316]

Lol. We are pathetic cause we are TIRED of the whiny little fucking crybabies of the world,, crying cause somebody was lied too? Cause he felt betrayed? Cause HE, Hart, DIDN'T get his way? WAHHHHH cry me a damn river. He was paid to do a JOB. His job was to entertain fans, who paid for his salary. He was asked to drop the title to Shawn, he refused. He refused? Excuse me? Vince made you, you ungrateful shit. Did Ric Flair bitch cause he had to put over a tag team wrestler who happened to win the IC title? NO. He did what was ASKED of him.

Did Shawn pull a power play and decide not to job for Diesel a year before their WM encounter? NO. But Hart thinks he is special? That he can tell his boss NO? Any other boss would have FIRED his ass on the spot. And then to top it off, he bitches and wines, and cries, for 12 fucking years. What are you a female? So you didn't like Shawn as a person, big deal. You aren't paid to hang out with him, or fondle him while watching Roadhouse. Your paid to WRESTLE.

I think its HILARIOUS that Hart, TIL THIS DAY, hates Shawn, yet Goldberg kicked him into a fucking coma. Shawn NEVER hurt Bret, they ALWAYS had 10 star matches. Yet he hates Shawn? But Goldberg knocking him ******ed is fine?

Face it. Hart was jealous of HBK. Simple as that. And he thought he could envoke a POWER play with Vince. LOL. Give me a break. I swear its like Bret is in love with Shawn, and Shawn turned him down or something. Women hold grudges, Men....we fight, we shake hands and then we get some beer. We don't complain about it a decade later.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

He had reasonable creative control over his character. Which doesn't mean Hart gets to choose who the next WWE champion will be.

No, but it means he gets to refuse who he drops the belt to.

I love how people talk about how immature and stupid Shawn was, then Hart says something like this and no one bats an eyelid. Hart was just as unprofessional as Shawn was, and this comment proves it. Who cares who he lost it to? What if McMahon didn't want Austin/Taker to have the belt at this time? That was NOT for Hart to decide. McMahon wanted Shawn to be the champion, Hart should have followed that.

Shawn wouldn't return the favor and took personal shots at Bret for no reason other than to bury him backstage. Why would he want to drop the belt to him when he had a say in how he exited?

As I said above, creative control over his character does not mean organising the rest of the company around him.

If it involves his character...he's got the right to do it.

Why would Shawn put Hart over when he was leaving? That makes NO sense. And it isn't good business for McMahon to have the face of his company LOSE to the face of the rival company. All that shows is that WCW has better talent.

Because it was in his contract? Furthermore, this was a discussion that was brewing for at least a year before Montreal...as Shawn wouldn't put over Hart at Mania XIII.

I think this was more about Vince vs. Bret than Shawn vs. Bret, but Shawn gets most of the heat due to thim being the one that was there.

I never blamed Shawn...you brought him into this.

McMahon made a simple business decision, which could have saved him his company.

A simple business decision that makes him look a liar...and justifiably so. He straight up lied to his talent and screwed him. It could happen to anybody.

Clearly, people still trust Vince.

Austin took his ball and went home. Angle left. Booker left. Sting never went to WWE after WCW went under. Foley left.

Most people realise it wouldn't have been necessary if Hart had done as he was asked by the guy who had arguably made him. And most realise he was doing what he thought was best for his company.

He didn't have to lose it to Shawn, though, Becca. And I realize that Vince "thought he was doing what was best for his company," but at what cost? Betraying a 14 year relationship? Selling out to greed?

 

[HBK-aholic]

No, but it means he gets to refuse who he drops the belt to.

Arguable - Hart didn't even have full creative control, he had it to an extent. When it comes down to the fact he was leaving the company, and McMahon got to choose the next champion, he should've laid down and done what was asked.

Shawn wouldn't return the favor and took personal shots at Bret for no reason other than to bury him backstage. Why would he want to drop the belt to him when he had a say in how he exited?

As mods, we have a say in who will be modded next, how we think the forum cuold be improved, and whether infractions stand. However, just because we have a say, does that mean what we think is automatically what will happen? No, it's down to the admins to have the final word. Just like this was ultimately down to McMahon.

If it involves his character...he's got the right to do it.

It involves the whole structure of the company - no he doesn't.

Because it was in his contract? Furthermore, this was a discussion that was brewing for at least a year before Montreal...as Shawn wouldn't put over Hart at Mania XIII.

How childish does that whole thing sound? "Well he wouldn't drop it to me so why should I? *Cries*". Seriously, you can't possibly criticise Shawn for being unprofessional when Hart responded just as bad. McMahon had a real reason for wanting Shawn to win, but Hart didn't care because he was so consumed with off-screen hate. Both were as bad as each other for it.

I never blamed Shawn...you brought him into this.

'Twas a general comment, not directed specifically at you.

A simple business decision that makes him look a liar...and justifiably so. He straight up lied to his talent and screwed him. It could happen to anybody.

But worth it because it could have saved his company. He couldn't take the risk of Hart taking the belt to WCW, and he didn't want the next face of his company to lost to the next face of WCW. That'd be a bad business decision. I'm not saying McMahon is innocent here, simply that if Hart had respected the business this wouldn't have been necessary.

Austin took his ball and went home. Angle left. Booker left. Sting never went to WWE after WCW went under. Foley left.

If you want, I could name all the talent still in the business, to prove the point.

He didn't have to lose it to Shawn, though, Becca. And I realize that Vince "thought he was doing what was best for his company," but at what cost? Betraying a 14 year relationship? Selling out to greed?

Greed? Seriously? You think this is what McMahon wanted? He had to lose it to Shawn because McMahon wanted Shawn to be champion, what more is there to it? Why should he have bothered with a transitional champion when he wanted Shawn to look at strong as possible?

 

[Tim_Seraphim]

People should let this die, seriously. It's been 12 years and people just won't let it go. Shit happens, people have disagreements, and people don't like each other. I understand why both men felt each was 'screwed,' but it's in the past and it's water under the bridge. Why do you people expect Shawn Michaels to apologize when you can't even bury the hatchet yourselves?

 

[JenovasWitness]

I liked Bret Hart's matches. I respected his technical skill. But when he refused to lose in Canada because he was a national hero here I kind of shook my head. I'm Canadian and, while he was popular here, I would never say he was any sort of hero.

The bottom line is this: what is "reasonable creative control"? Does anyone on this board work for the WWE and knows for certain what that term entails? Does that mean that Vince McMahon, the owner and final decision maker of the BUSINESS that is WWE, cut off his own balls and handed them to Bret Hart in his final 30 days in the company? I seriously think not. If I have learned anything from watching the WWE, reading about it and discussing it for the past 20 some odd years of my life, I would say with certainty that Vince McMahon would never put himself in that sort of situation.

WWE was in a bad way at the time that all of these events took place. WCW was kicking their ass and playing dirty. From a business standpoint, Vince could NOT have sent Bret Hart to WCW on a high note. He could NOT have sent WCW a champion. They would have played that up HUGE. Was it calculated? Yes. Was it ruthless? Yes. Was what he did nigh unforgiveable? Possibly (although Bret Hart now has a DVD on sale with the WWE...). But who was left standing at the end of the war?

Vince needed to be calculating and ruthless. This was his business, his promotion and his life that was on the line. For all his success in the ring, Bret was an employee. An employee with a reasonable amount of power, admittedly, but one who answers to the boss all the same.

 

[HBK-aholic]

People should let this die, seriously. It's been 12 years and people just won't let it go. Shit happens, people have disagreements, and people don't like each other. I understand why both men felt each was 'screwed,' but it's in the past and it's water under the bridge. Why do you people expect Shawn Michaels to apologize when you can't even bury the hatchet yourselves?

I've been waiting for a post like this. There's always at least one during this debate who likes to look good by saying we should get over it. We're here on a discussion forum, discussing a controversial topic. We come on Wrestlezone to do that. To have discussions where we'll disagree with people. Should we just do away with the whole Old School section, because it was so long ago so we should forget it? This is an interesting topic to debate with fans on both sides being passionate about it. I think Hart was most to blame, because he should have done as he was asked. Some believe it was Vince, because he gave Hart creative control. then there are those that somehow blame Shawn. But regardless, fans are having fun discussing it.


NorCal Edit: So shut the fuck up and STAY OUT if you dont like the conversation

Ricky Edit: Yeah!