Vince McMahon: The Real Legend Killer

[asiatic7]

I know a lot has been said on these forums about Vince feeding HHH all of the former main eventers from WCW from 2002-2004. It has been said that Vince was trying to show his top guy was superior to all the old WCW top tier. Basically, he buried them. But history has shown us that this is nothing new to ol' Vinny Mac! I've been thinking about this recently. He's done it to the best of the best! Vince brings in established stars from different promotions and makes fools of them! Here's a laundry list:

1. Harley Race- Former 7x NWA World Champion, legendary battles with the Hennigs, Terry Funk, Ric Flair. The first man to body slam Andre The Giant. Lengendary tough guy,(he had the bicycle moustache to prove it!!!). This man signed with WWE and became "Handsome"....what??? King Harley Race complete with a ridiculous robe and crown. Rib? I think so.

2. Dusty Rhodes- Another great established star from the NWA. Great feuds with Ric Flair and the Four Horsemen, Terry Funk and a host of others. The guy drew money!!! He was an Icon before he was..."The Common Man" The polka dot clad "Son Of A Plummer" was a joke by the time he debuted in WWF and showed no sings of the legend he became with Jim Crockett...and his ring gear looked like a Twister game.

3. Barry Windham- A young, good looking former world champion and Horseman. actually, he was in WWF before all this as one half of The U.S. Express and captured the WWF tag team belts. But his reputation grew in the JCP/NWA. He became a star and when he got to WWF, they turned him into The Widowmaker. A gimmick that went nowhere! Then he was The Stalker, then a Blackjack then a...you get the point. WWF dropped the ball.

4. Jeff Jarrett- Was a star in the USWA. WWF turned him into a buffoon with Christmas lights shades!

5. Ricky Steamboat- Yes, I know he had success as a star in the WWF prior to joining WCW, but I'm talking about the Dragon with that ridiculous costume and fire breathing gimmick! It did nothing for his career. Why couldn't he just be who he was before he left?

6. Goldberg- He didn't get straddled with a career killing gimmick, but they made him look sub-par in WWE and it didn't do anything for his legacy. If you didn't follow his WCW career, you might have thought he was just a bad experiment gone wrong (Nathan Jones).

7.Everyone else that HHH beat after WCW closed (Nash, Steiner, Booker T)
Booker T was made into a joke in WWE. Yes, he finally won the Big Belt in that company but he had to perform a ridiculous gimmick while he carried it.

With the top three especially, why did Vince give these legendary guys lame gimmicks? Did he hold animosity for them? Why was Ric Flair the exception? I know there were others that were buried too, but these few came to mind.
What do you guys make of all this?

Is Vince the real "Legend Killer"? Is Vince a bully and a hypocrite for treating guys the way he did and enshrining them in the HOF? Let's hear it!

 

[dtroppe]

Imagine this though, Vince does have the best guys in the World and has had them for a long time. Vince had the best guys in the late 80s-mid 90s. He had the best guys from the late 90s to present. HHH was at the top of the wrestling food chain. Nash was past his prime and Booker was never in the same league. Goldberg still had a successful career in WWE.

In the mid-late 90s WCW had the NWO. These top guys were guys in their prime and they were also ex-WWF guys. Nash,Hall, Hogan, Savage, Luger - and a few WCW guys like sting and Flair. Obviously they dominated. But at the same time WWE was developing Stone Cold and the Rock- the best in history.

Notice WWE did not feed Hogan to the sharks- he beat HBK and even though he lsot to Rock- he main evented Mania and had a huge face turn.

The moral of the story is -Vince has the best guys and he likes to show that off.

 

[legendkiller1979]

You're absolutely right. Vince is god. If he doesn't want you to be a star, it's not gonna happen. Allow me to add a couple more names to the list.

Dusty Rhodes: Remember the ridiculous polka dots? His biggest feud was with Randy Savage and that one wasn't even close. Then there was Saphire. The single worst manager ever.

Demolition: The most dominant team of the late 80's was kicked to the curb as soon as L.O.D hit the scene. This should have been a great feud but again, it wasn't even close.
I know Bill Eide was having heart problems but it could have been taken care of with a simple pill.

Terry Taylor: Certainly not a huge star but it was a talented wrestler who had success outside the WWF. Then he was given the worst gimmick ever.

 

[SSJPhenom]

I don't think that Vince killed any of their careers. People like Race, Windham, and Rhodes were very well known on the territory circuit; however, a lot of the WWF/E audience didn't know who they were. Vince tried to introduce them in the only way that he knew how back then and that was to give the wrestlers a gimmick. Everybody had a gimmick in those days. Remember the Macho King Randy Savage?

Also, there was no way that Goldberg was ever going to be what he was when he was in WCW in the WWE. They couldn't have him come out and have 2 min matches every week and not speak. That had been done before. So when Goldberg had to wrestle 10-15 minute matches on Raw and 15-25 minute matches at PPVs and give us some promo work, it showed that he really wasn't as good as everyone thought he was.

I think Vince did what he could for these people and they just couldn't make it work. Example, HHH as Hunter Hearst Helmesly was awful but he was able to turn it around. Austin as the Ring Master was horrible and now he is mentioned in the same category as Flair and Hogan. Rock as Rocky Miavia was horrible and now look at him. Also, let's not forget the ones that Vince took from the WCW and made huge. Jericho, Mysterio, Eddie, Benoit all come to mind.

I really think that you have to give Vince more credit than that.

 

[justtxyank]

Comments on a few of the ones you mentioned:

1) Dusty Rhodes: No reason he wasn't used better. He was definitely over throughout the country despite being domiciled in the South. He was one of wrestling biggest stars and is one of the top five draws as a face in history.

2) Harley Race: Yeah, they didn't do much with him, but he was old by the time WWF got him and he definitely didn't have the cache that a guy like Dusty had. Not because he wasn't good, because he was great, but his body type, promo style, etc. were not what the WWF pushed.

3) Barry Windham: Agree here. The WWF did stupid things with him.

The other poster made a great point though. Stupid gimmicks is what Vince knows. He's always believed in gimmicky gimmicks for wrestlers. He never believed in letter workers be themselves. Too hard to control the money associated with them if they do that. His idea of what wrestling should be is a PG television show featuring larger than life personalities for the kids. It's ALWAYS been that.

 

[Hulkamaniac]

The obvious one that was left off was DDP. The guy was INSANELY over. The crowd went nuts when he debuted in the E, even though it was in that ridiculous stalker gimmick. Unfortunately, it was a ridiculous gimmick, and there's only so far it can go, no matter how over you are. Vince really dropped the ball with him.

 

[MWRedskins]

6. Goldberg- He didn't get straddled with a career killing gimmick, but they made him look sub-par in WWE and it didn't do anything for his legacy. If you didn't follow his WCW career, you might have thought he was just a bad experiment gone wrong (Nathan Jones).

7.Everyone else that HHH beat after WCW closed (Nash, Steiner, Booker T)
Booker T was made into a joke in WWE. Yes, he finally won the Big Belt in that company but he had to perform a ridiculous gimmick while he carried it.

With the top three especially, why did Vince give these legendary guys lame gimmicks? Did he hold animosity for them?

i wont say that Vince killed their careers or legacies as most of these guys either 1) didnt have much left at the time or 2) werent what they were. Goldberg was never a great wrestler, he excited fans with his hard hitting among other things, but he wouldnt be great in a 20 minute match. As for Nash and Steiner, again, both werent great in the ring and both have gotten older at the times. Booker T. should've got a bigger push, but i dont think his King Booker gimmick was ridiculous, it showed how great he can expand his character, but he should've been pushed earlier in my book.

The obvious one that was left off was DDP. The guy was INSANELY over. The crowd went nuts when he debuted in the E, even though it was in that ridiculous stalker gimmick. Unfortunately, it was a ridiculous gimmick, and there's only so far it can go, no matter how over you are. Vince really dropped the ball with him.

agree, they should've not had him as a heel, but he can play his parts well too, but DDP should've been a face as he was an over character. now why he didnt get a big push is explainable, but he should've been a face as the crowd loved it when they saw him debut.

 

[HBsam31]

It seemed to me like Vince just picks and chooses who he wants to let get over in the cases that were mentioned. Even as a kid I wondered why Dusty Rhodes had to wear polka dots, and why Barry Windham had the gimmick he did, but back then gimmicks were very common. That being said I still think Vince got a kick out of it though. The one though that blows my mind was DDP. I was never a huge fan of him, but I respected how he worked to get to the top. The thing is DDP was mega over in WCW. At the very least he should have debuted in WWE as a face. The gimmick they gave him was ridiculous, and was never going to go far with it. I think he could have been at the very least an upper midcard face.

 

[lowandmighty]

No Vince is not a bully... well maybe but the reason he did this is because he's very smart. If he didn't diminish the reputations of wrestlers who gained respect outside his own company then his company would look weak by comparison to nwa.
The way he made it look was that even the most hardened veteran from elsewhere still didn't cut the mustard when pitted against his own guys.
Its how he made the wwf the main wrestling company for all the world.

 

[Lying Retarded Crybaby Troll Bitch]

I have to question Goldberg being on the list. I don't think he so much looked sub-par in WWE as was overhyped (& sometimes badly) in WCW. Clearly, Vince disagrees (look at Ryback).

 

[YES!]

I think that's why Sting never went to the WWE. Sting knew that he would be beat by the top stars in the WWE and just didn't sign because of it. His ego was more important than money.

In regards to Goldberg, Goldberg beat Triple H. I don't think Triple H ever beat Goldberg one-on-one.

 

[Rayne]

The obvious one that was left off was DDP. The guy was INSANELY over. The crowd went nuts when he debuted in the E, even though it was in that ridiculous stalker gimmick. Unfortunately, it was a ridiculous gimmick, and there's only so far it can go, no matter how over you are. Vince really dropped the ball with him.

DDP was 45 when he entered the WWF. How much investment do people really expect the WWF to give someone who won't be around in a couple of years?

This is the second time I've heard DDP mentioned as someone the WWF/E 'dropped the ball' with, but what were they supposed to do? Push him to the moon, then leave a big, gaping hole in the lineup when he would certainly leave in a couple years, or sooner should he get injured, as older wrestlers tend to?

DDP was at the end of his career when he joined up with the WWF. He had a twilight feud against one of the biggest stars the WWF had. But because he didn't relive his best years in WCW during his last years in the WWF, people hang on this 'dropped the ball' thing.

 

[spankey160]

i disagree,,the man that created pretty much everything is a legend killer,,,makes no sense,,these guys r as big he makes them,,he doesnt owe them anything,they get payed lots of money for wrestling,,,another thing,dusty rhodes was a fat slob and a terrible wrestler,,,all u need to know about dusty rhodes,,have him stand toe to toe with stone cold steve austin,,dudes a clown,,u would just laugh if u ever saw that ,,,hes not even a mid carder,,,savage was savage because of wat vince put around him with wrestlemania and the publicty and the costumes,,without all that hes just another person so i thing vince is far froma legend killer

 

[MrMojoRisin]

I know a lot has been said on these forums about Vince feeding HHH all of the former main eventers from WCW from 2002-2004. It has been said that Vince was trying to show his top guy was superior to all the old WCW top tier. Basically, he buried them. But history has shown us that this is nothing new to ol' Vinny Mac! I've been thinking about this recently. He's done it to the best of the best! Vince brings in established stars from different promotions and makes fools of them! Here's a laundry list:

1. Harley Race- Former 7x NWA World Champion, legendary battles with the Hennigs, Terry Funk, Ric Flair. The first man to body slam Andre The Giant. Lengendary tough guy,(he had the bicycle moustache to prove it!!!). This man signed with WWE and became "Handsome"....what??? King Harley Race complete with a ridiculous robe and crown. Rib? I think so.

2. Dusty Rhodes- Another great established star from the NWA. Great feuds with Ric Flair and the Four Horsemen, Terry Funk and a host of others. The guy drew money!!! He was an Icon before he was..."The Common Man" The polka dot clad "Son Of A Plummer" was a joke by the time he debuted in WWF and showed no sings of the legend he became with Jim Crockett...and his ring gear looked like a Twister game.

3. Barry Windham- A young, good looking former world champion and Horseman. actually, he was in WWF before all this as one half of The U.S. Express and captured the WWF tag team belts. But his reputation grew in the JCP/NWA. He became a star and when he got to WWF, they turned him into The Widowmaker. A gimmick that went nowhere! Then he was The Stalker, then a Blackjack then a...you get the point. WWF dropped the ball.

4. Jeff Jarrett- Was a star in the USWA. WWF turned him into a buffoon with Christmas lights shades!

5. Ricky Steamboat- Yes, I know he had success as a star in the WWF prior to joining WCW, but I'm talking about the Dragon with that ridiculous costume and fire breathing gimmick! It did nothing for his career. Why couldn't he just be who he was before he left?

6. Goldberg- He didn't get straddled with a career killing gimmick, but they made him look sub-par in WWE and it didn't do anything for his legacy. If you didn't follow his WCW career, you might have thought he was just a bad experiment gone wrong (Nathan Jones).

7.Everyone else that HHH beat after WCW closed (Nash, Steiner, Booker T)
Booker T was made into a joke in WWE. Yes, he finally won the Big Belt in that company but he had to perform a ridiculous gimmick while he carried it.

With the top three especially, why did Vince give these legendary guys lame gimmicks? Did he hold animosity for them? Why was Ric Flair the exception? I know there were others that were buried too, but these few came to mind.
What do you guys make of all this?

Is Vince the real "Legend Killer"? Is Vince a bully and a hypocrite for treating guys the way he did and enshrining them in the HOF? Let's hear it!

Some of what you're saying is accurate. Vince has always been a guy who will push his own creations over anyone elses. In some cases though, I don't think you're being completely fair

Race - He wasn't the first to slam Andre (so many more people slammed the Giant than the myth ever acknowledged). I actually didn't mind "King" Harley as much as I did the fact that they were promoting him as a rookie. Credit to Harley though... he took what wasn't a great gimmick, and got it over to the extent that the WWF ran with it as an unofficial championship for the rest of the decade

Rhodes - I've heard rumours that it was actually Dusty's idea to come in with that gimmick... or at least the polka dots. I've also heard that the gimmick (and Sapphire) were intended to bury him. Credit to Dusty though. He took a WrestleCrap gimmick, and got it over pretty big.

Windham - If you want to talk bad gimmicks for him, talk the Stalker, or later as a Blackjack. The Widowmaker wasn't really much different from his NWA gimmick, and he was getting a pretty good push right up until he left the WWF a few months later. The Widowmaker was more of a nickname, and he happened to come in at a time when a lot of guys were getting switched to just their nicknames. Also, he left the WWF because his father and brother were about to go to jail on counterfeiting charges.

Jarrett - I happened to be a fan of Double J, so I'm probably biased here... but being a star in your daddy's company isn't always the greatest measuring stick of your ability once you go somewhere else. To his credit though, Jarrett was one of the rare ones who actually had talent while starring in daddy's company

Steamboat - Agreed. As a kid, it insulted my intelligence that they brought back a WWF favourite like Steamboat, ignored his history, and just went by his nickname. I was used to it with NWA guys on their first trip to the WWF, but it felt wrong with Steamboat. Ironically, this was about the same time that Blanchard/Anderson came in as the Brainbusters, and with them, it was acknowledged that they were an experienced and successful tag team

Goldberg - I didn't really see anything wrong with Goldberg in the WWF. His run seemed to be more of a continuation of where he'd left off in WCW

Booker T - I'll disagree here. I found Booker more entertaining in the WWE than I ever felt he was in WCW.

Steiner - Yeah, that run was just horrible. Who brings in Big Poppa Pump as a face? He never stood a chance

Nash - In fairness, Nash was pretty broken down at that time.

 

[fuzz69]

The obvious one that was left off was DDP. The guy was INSANELY over. The crowd went nuts when he debuted in the E, even though it was in that ridiculous stalker gimmick. Unfortunately, it was a ridiculous gimmick, and there's only so far it can go, no matter how over you are. Vince really dropped the ball with him.

DDP would of been a bigger star in WWE if he would of waited. They had a storyline that it was him and the rock to feud for 3 months called peoples champ vs peoples champ and he didn't want to wait so they had to give him the stalker gimmick. You wondering how i know that i seen a documentary and it came straight from DDP's mouth

I think we are missing one guy that was very huge in wcw and japan, He was a monster that couldn be contained and everyone tried to tell him but hbk (which is the man) wouldn't allow it to happen is vader. Vince wanted to change his name to the mastodon phsst who does that? Never thought id say this cause i can't stand the guy but thank god jim cornett was there to tell him HELL NO.


Dusty Rhodes was given that gimmick and suit cause he is a simple man he don't need anything else.


Goldberg=ruined


Nathan Jones=ruined

I honestly don't know why they have passed up on so much talent and let it slip thru their hands but bring hulk hogan in and let him win the undisputed title it don't make sense to me.

They had great talent with the ecw junk with all the old talent then it went away that was the best show wwe had to offer behind raw it was better than smack down and they started this non-hardcore stuff and ruined it.

billy gunn is also a superstar that comes to my mind that i think could of been bigger than he was they released him

Bob Holly another big superstar that got his chance but dropped off the main event picture after that.

Zach Ryder was getting so huge so they had to put him in a story line cause his fan base was so high and he would never go past the mid-car.

 

[The mind]

"Vince will only push guys he "makes", that's how he is. " Kevin Nash

There is alot to cover here, so I'll try and be brief.

Bob Holly had a great gimmick, but the WWE would never push him because he did have a weakness when it came to cutting promos (Though Randy Orton and Brock Lesner are simply terrible at cutting promos, yet they got pushes), and many main eventers, like HHH, Shawn Michaels, and even Lesner didn't like the stiff style Holly worked.

It's funny that Vince has screwed poor Tony Atlas over twice. Once, as the very forgettable Samba Simba (check out the videos on youtube...talk about a very racist gimmick), and then as the always laughing co-host for Aresineo Hall Jr.

Tajiri. The guy was a tough as nails ass kicker in ECW. Gets to WWE, and they make him William Regal's (Who I feel is the greatest to never hold a world title) man servent. Once again, proving that Vince never met a racial stereotype he didn't like.

Taz. Killer promos, excellent ring work, yet always an after thought. The inability to book Taz shows that Vince isn't always a smart man.

Terri Power. Better known as DX's Tori, here was Chyna before Chyna was Chyna (though Terri never did porn). Yet the had her put over the Barbie Doll Sable. Yeah, a playboy playmate can beat a female body builder.

Perry Saturn. Maybe he'd never get the world title, but another excellent worker, amazing promo cutter, always buried in WWE.

Others that were big elsewhere, and buried in the WWE: Chavo Guerrero, Tim Horner, Shane Douglas, The Bushwakckers.

I'm surre there are more. just can't think of all of the dozens that Vince got and buried.

 

[Waylon Mercy]

I remember "King" Harley Race getting absolutely decimated by Hogan, on a Saturday morning edition of WWF Superstars no less (if memory serves me correctly). This show was used primarily for feeding marquee players jobbers. I thought at the time it was really disrespectful to a man who was a true legend and incredible former champion. Apparently Hogan botched a spot where Race was supposed to swan dive from the ring on top of him on a table. Hogan moved out of the way and the metal frame punctured his appendix or something like that. Race suffered a hernia, and was never the same after that. He tried a comeback of sorts but it never panned out. I guess Vince did make amends to some degree, as Race was honored by an induction into the WWE Hall of Fame.

 

[multiverseman.com]

DDP was 45 when he entered the WWF. How much investment do people really expect the WWF to give someone who won't be around in a couple of years?

This is the second time I've heard DDP mentioned as someone the WWF/E 'dropped the ball' with, but what were they supposed to do? Push him to the moon, then leave a big, gaping hole in the lineup when he would certainly leave in a couple years, or sooner should he get injured, as older wrestlers tend to?

DDP was at the end of his career when he joined up with the WWF. He had a twilight feud against one of the biggest stars the WWF had. But because he didn't relive his best years in WCW during his last years in the WWF, people hang on this 'dropped the ball' thing.

That makes no sense.

If you're going to go through all the trouble to bring the guy in, at least use him correctly. And it isn't as if "correctly" is rocket science either.

So because he's on his last legs as a wrestler, the best thing to do is give him a terrible gimmick that won't draw a dime because he might be gone in a couple of years? Yeah that makes sense.

 

[Lying Retarded Crybaby Troll Bitch]

I have to laugh when I read about Nathan Jones being "ruined". That implies there would be a way to use him properly. I think there might be, & it's called "not at all".