Topic #6, Group #2: Most Unbreakable Record

[klunderbunker]

This thread is to be used by those in Group #1 (see the stickied thread for rosters if you're unsure of where you are). Any other posts in here will be flagged for spam and deleted. You have four days from the time this is posted to post (as in the time this is posted on Thursday, which is approximately when the new topic will go up. Note that I mean 96 hours after MY initial post, not the lead off debater.) your arguments, rebuttals and anything else you want. Best overall debater in that time period receives 10 points, second receives 9, third receives 8, all others receive 7.

Hitting Lead-Off in this debate is Megatron. He has 24 hours to reply and if he doesn't then it's open season.

Again: 4 days, best overall poster gets first place points.

Topic: What record in professional or collegiate sports is the least likely to be broken?

Scores will be posted as soon as the three judges give their scores.

Go.

 

[Megatron]

I don't know if this is 'fair' or not, but I posted a thread like this (except it was titled 'Most impressive streak') about a month or so ago, so I'm just going to copy most of my post from there, and then argue for it.
---
For me, without much thought, it simply HAS to be Joe Dimaggio's 56 game hitting streak. I think baseball is the toughest sport to master out of them all, and even the best hitters today have games where they go 0-3 or 0-4 and no one makes a big deal out of it since baseball's a long, grinding season and sometimes you're just gonna have those days where it's not on. But for Joe D to get a hit in 56 straight games is straight up unbelievable. I don't care if all 56 hits were bunt singles, ANY time you can get a hit for 56 straight games it's impressive. Not only did he get a hit for 56 straight games, he had a great .408 average (91 for 223) with 15 HR's and 55 RBI's. That's a good season for an average player, but to do that in only 56 games is impressive. What's also surprising is that nobody has come within 10 of the record, and only one person (Pete Rose in 78) has even reached 40 games. It's one of those records that I don't think we'll ever see again, simply because of how there's going to be some days where guys aren't on and now pitchers are getting much smarter in where they are going to throw their next pitch and managers now bring in certain pitchers for certain situations (such as bringing in a lefty to face a lefty batter).

It's untouchable. When nobody can get within single digits of your record, you know it's quite amazing.

 

[hatehabsforever]

I think these topics are getting tougher and tougher to discuss. In the last debate, when conversing about the greatest dynasties ever, there were so many to choose from that narrowing it down to one was pretty tough, as seen by the various suggestions put out there, all of which were really well discussed in my opinion, not to mention the numerous other choices that could have been put out there and were not.

Topic #6 is no different. There are so many statistics out there, where it be team or individual, whether it be college, high school, or professional, whether it be main stream high profile sports or the more low key ones, any of a number of suggestions could be made, all of which would be excellent choices.

As he has through the earlier rounds, Megatron has done yet another excellent job. His suggestion of Joe DiMaggio's hit streak of 56 games is difficult to challenge. It is one of many well respected achievements which is universally known and revered and he is quite right, it likely will never be beaten.

As difficult as it may be to challenge it, though, I have to do so. All due respect, Megatron picked the correct sport, the statistics-focused Major League Baseball, where every accomplishment, every stat is analyzed and dissected to death, but I feel he picked the wrong record. I think he picked the second most impressive, or possibly even the third, but DiMaggio's major accomplishment is not the most unbreakable.

In looking at the most unbreakable, I tend to think more of career accomplishments rather than single season. It is probably easier to pull off some remarkable single season feat than it is to sustain it over an entire career. Which of course makes me slight full of it, because as I already said, there's nothing easy about a 56 game hitting streak and I don't see this stat being in any jeopardy any time soon.

I considered Cal Ripken Jr.'s iron man streak as possible being worthy of consideration, because here we have a long-term career accomplishment which is awesome and which I also don't think will ever be beaten, as the way the game of baseball is played in the modern era is different now than it used to be. With contract issues, free agency, greed of players and management alike, and a general lack of loyalty in both directions, playing this many consecutive games will likely not be seen again anytime soon, if ever.

Yet, there is one statistic, one accomplishment, one record which for me is more significant than all of them, one which is absolutely untouchable and unbreakable. I am referring to the career hits header, the incomparable Pete Rose, with his career base hit total of 4256 career hits.

When you think about it, this is a truly tremendous feat. Quite honestly, I don't know how he managed to do it. There's no spin I can put on it which lessens his accomplishment in any way whatsoever. You can talk about the era he played in, the teams that he played with or against, the quality of pitching he faced, whatever, and it's awesome in any context.

Look at the list of career hits leaders. Almost all of them are Hall of Famers. Ironically, Charlie Hustle is not one of them, the single most unfair travesty of justice in professional sports, but that's another discussion for another day. Historically, 3000 hits is a lock to put someone who is not a gambler or a steroid user into the Hall of Fame. 3000. And he hit 1200+ more than this. 1256 more! That's mind boggling. Look at the guys on the career hits leader board with him. Ty Cobb is the only guy even close, at 4191. Then it dramatically drops puff to 3771 for Hank Aaron, 3630 for Stan Musial, and so on and so on. Pretty elite company, and the only one even close is Ty Cobb. Third place is 485 hits behind.

Look at the guys who played in my era. Paul Molitor. Wade Boggs. Cal Ripken Jr. George Brett. Robin Yount. Tony Gwynn. Honus Wagner (OK, maybe I'm not quite that old!). A who's who of hitting prowess and consistency. And they are miles behind the career hits totals of Pete Rose. You can see names on the list who were household names throughout their long and illustrious careers, and they finished with more than a thousand fewer career base hits than Rose did.

Look at the active players on the list. Derek Jeter is 36 years old and he's at 2926. He'll obviously crack 3000 and be a sure fire first ballot Hall of Famer when he hangs up the cleats. But somehow, I don't think he will hit 1230 more base hits. Likewise, Ivan Rodriguez at 38 years of age with 2817 career base hits, or Omar Vizquel at the age of 43 with 2799 hits, are other candidates for the Hall of Fame, but they won't get within a thousand hits of Pete Rose.

200 hits per season is considered by most to be a terrific season, and it is, no doubt about it. Try doing it for 21 consecutive seasons. Try to maintain this degree of consistent excellence, while avoiding slumps, injuries, contract disputes, etc., for greater than two decades. Every year. While still playing superb defence and playing with a passion and intensity which for the most part is sorely lacking in today's game. Playing a style of baseball which was so fiery that it lead to physical contact in the All Star Game.

Sure, some guys hit more than 200 per season. Ichiro Suzuki hit 262 in 2004, 242 in 2001, and 238 in 2007. Ichiro is a tremendous hitter and an excellent all-round baseball player, but I don't see even him sustaining this consistency for 20+ seasons, assuming he even plays this long. He hasn't really displayed it really for one decade, never mind two. Look at Wade Boggs and how tremendous a hitter he was. His highest single season total was 240 in 1985, and he was a hitting machine. Even he wasn't putting up numbers like Rose was.

Some of you will say that he was a part of a dynasty, the Big Red Machine and as such, was surrounded by a plethora of excellent players and as such, probably saw more pitches to hit than other guys may have. In other words, you couldn't pitch around him easily because he was surrounded by such a talented roster. To which I say bullshit. Just because he saw more pitches was no guarantee that he was going to consistently hit them. With all due respect to his teammates, it is likely that Rose got pitched around a fair share as well in lieu of other guys. Plus, any top hitter on any excellent team could make the same claim, yet he's the only one to compile astronomical hit totals like he did.

Give Pete Rose his due credit. The most unbreakable record in the history of sports is Pete Rose's career base hits record of 4256. . No doubt about it. And for the love of God, put the man in the Hall of Fame where he absolutely deserves to be. This should not be a continued omission, nor will it be appropriate to credit him posthumously once he moves on to the other side. He's already in the WWE Hall of Fame , now put him into Cooperstown. No one deserves it more than he does, indiscretions considered.

 

[gd]

This is an easy one, glad no one took it. Obviously it's Johnny Vander Meer. In case you don't know, he was a pitcher for the Red's in the 1930's who was average at best. However, he did throw two consecutive no hitters, on against the Boston Braves and another against the Dodgers in the first ever night game at Ebbets field.

Tell me how that is ever possibly going to be broken, which would require a pitcher to throw 3 consecutive no hitters. There are barely 3 no hitters in an entire MLB season, let alone 3 by the same pitcher, let alone in 3 straight starts. Simply put, it will never, ever happen.

Someone could certainly get to 4257. Hell, if Ichiro played his entire career in the US he would be close.

As for Dimaggio, that is a tough one, but certainly not impossible. Pete Rose got within 12, which isn't far off at all. It would be conceivable that a hitter gets extremely hot and goes on a 2 month tear to get to 57. Johnny Vander Meer's record being broken is just completely unbreakable though, it'll never happen.

 

[hatehabsforever]

This is an easy one, glad no one took it. Obviously it's Johnny Vander Meer. In case you don't know, he was a pitcher for the Red's in the 1930's who was average at best. However, he did throw two consecutive no hitters, on against the Boston Braves and another against the Dodgers in the first ever night game at Ebbets field.

Tell me how that is ever possibly going to be broken, which would require a pitcher to throw 3 consecutive no hitters. There are barely 3 no hitters in an entire MLB season, let alone 3 by the same pitcher, let alone in 3 straight starts. Simply put, it will never, ever happen.

Someone could certainly get to 4257. Hell, if Ichiro played his entire career in the US he would be close.

As for Dimaggio, that is a tough one, but certainly not impossible. Pete Rose got within 12, which isn't far off at all. It would be conceivable that a hitter gets extremely hot and goes on a 2 month tear to get to 57. Johnny Vander Meer's record being broken is just completely unbreakable though, it'll never happen.

Nice of you to join us this time around GD, I personally missed your perspective on the previous topic. I was wondering what happened to you last time, to go AWOL for a topic that was pretty easy to discuss.

Unfortunately, it would appear to me that you must have been absent from the last discussion because you must have suffered some sort of traumatic head injury. You appear to be uncharacteristically confused.

You cannot possibly be suggesting that throwing three consecutive no-hitters is more of an accomplishment than stroking over 4200 career base hits. Or having a 56 game hitting streak. Or winning 500 + pitching decisions while throwing 700+ complete games. I would respectfully suggest that three consecutive no hitters is impressive, there's no denying this, but it pales greatly in comparison to hitting 4256 career base hits.

While there is tremendous parity in MLB these days, probably more than ever, there are still lots of weaker franchises, and with the advent of inter-league play, greater combinations of opponents setting up potentially even more mis-matches. A pitcher could easily come out and pitch a gem of a game against a great opponent, and throw a no-hitter. 5 games later, he gets a game against a lousy team such as the Pirates (sorry GD), so I don't think it would be too unrealistic to do it again. Then, one more time against another possible weaker opponent, and bang, it's done. Would this be a minor accomplishment? Absolutely not, it would be huge. Will it happen? Possibly not, in fact likely not. But it is far more likely to happen than averaging 200 hits a season for 21 consecutive years. A three game hot streak, which could be aided by quality of opponents, playing conditions, umpiring errors or scorer's discretion, as opposed to a career of consistent excellence. Not even in the same stratosphere. Had someone like Roy Halladay played his entire career on a team like the Phillies or the Yankees, with the quality of pitching he has displayed and his ability to pitch deep into the game, as he has already thrown a perfect game, no-hitters, one hitters, he would have had a shot to replicate Vander Meer's feat. For someone like him to do this on a good team while possibly playing three consecutive games against weaker franchises is not only possible, but likely.

Of course, this is a silly hypothetical. Would have, could have, should have, and these types of commentary mean nothing. Which is why your suggestion regarding Ichiro is equally meaningless. It means nothing to infer what Suzuki may have done if he had played his entire career in MLB. We'll never know what could have been, but we damn well know what did happen with Pete Rose. Who knows, maybe if Ichiro had played his entire career in MLB, he may have gotten injured, or burned out, or whatever. Fact of the matter is, his numbers will be nowhere close to Rose's. He'll finish in the low 3000's, no small feat, but 1000 + behind Rose.

At first, I misunderstood your reference to Ichiro. I originally thought you were suggesting that he may still catch Rose. With 2244 hits at the age of 37, safe to say that Suzuki doesn't have another 2000 hits in him. Then I realized that I misunderstood what you meant. Even with your concussion, you wouldn't have been this confused

So put your feet up and relax for the next few days GD. Hopefully you'll see things a little more clearly as the cobwebs continue to clear up. And we can continue our debates as we move forward into the subsequent rounds of this contest.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Joe DiMaggio's hitting streak is child's play compared to what I'm about to bring to the table. I thought about going with Cy Young's 511 wins but that was too easy and besides, baseball is different today than the days of yesteryear and I felt it would be too unfair. There have been great athletes who seemingly were head and shoulders above anyone in their sport. There's one man in my opinion who stands above them all and that is Wayne Gretzky. The most unbreakable record is his 1963 career assists.

As the old addage goes, "Chicks dig the long ball." That holds true to all other sports. We want to see the dunks in basketball, the touchdowns in football, and the goals in hockey. What nobody talks about is the assist which is one of my favorite stat lines in sports. Enough about my preferences. Let's talk about why Gretzky's record will never be broken.

1. Mark Messier is second on the all-time points list with 1887. That's right, 1887 points which is less than the number of assists Gretzky had. Dominance at its finest. Second on the career assist list is Ron Francis which stands 714 behind Wayne at 1269.

2. Since Gretzky retired, the most assists in a season has been 96 by Joe Thornton in the 2005-2006 season. Wayne had 11 straight seasons of 100 or more assists including 163 in 1985-1986.

3. Sidney Crosby currently has 357 assists and he'll be 24 in August. Let's say he'll get around 20-25 more assists this season depending on how many games he plays since he is injured. To surpass Gretzky, he would have to average around 80 assists for twenty years. His highest assist total was 84 in 2006-2007. I don't think he'll be able to keep up that pace even if the NHL has opened up to a more goal-friendly game. Ovechkin would have to average 90 assists for 15 seasons and he's never hit 60.

I rest my case.

 

[LSN80]

The saying all records are meant to be broken doesn't apply to a select few. Those are the ones that because of circumstance, whether it be the changes made to the game, or the ability of a player team. That's what makes CY Young's 749 career complete games easily the most unbreakable record of all time.

Young accomplished this amazing feat over a 21 year career spanning from 1890-1911. This means he averaged 35 complete games per year, at minimum throwing 315 innings per year. This one is laughable, if you think about it. Pitchers today will never again reach 200 complete games, as their managers simply won't allow it. The most successful pitchers in the game today generally pitch seven to eight innings of shutout ball and allow a middle reliever and a closer to finish the game. Most pitchers are also on pitch counts as most don't reach more then 120 pitches per game. 200 innings is generally the rule for how many innings a pitcher throws before being "shut down" for the season.

On the few occasions where a pitcher reaches 10 complete games in a season, it becomes big baseball news. Twenty is quite impossible. To break Young's record, one would need to average 36 complete games for 21 consecutive seasons. Of active players in baseball, Roy Halladay is the leader with only 58 complete games. That's 689 complete games behind Young, and Halladay is 33. Livan Hernandez is second in his 15 seasons of professional baseball with 49. 24 year veteran Jamie Moyer is third with 33. Rounding out the top five amongst active players are Tim Wakefield with 32, and CC Sabathia with 30.

I understand the arguments that baseball was different game in that day. Rotations were generally made up of 3-4 starters, and there was no such thing as "specialists" such as middle relievers and closers. Those types of pitchers didn't become commonplace until the 1950's. Further, pitchers back in Cy Young's day weren't on pitch counts, so for them to throw 350 innings in a season was commonplace. However, I think all of these factors only serve to strengthen my argument that Young's record will never be broken. Because managers are careful with pitchers and the introduction of specialists to get certin hitters out and closers to finish the game, this record is simply untouchable. It will never be broken, nor will it be approached. That's what makes it the most unbreakable record of all time, with ease.

 

[hatehabsforever]

Of the six topics discussed so far in this tournament, this one topic has been and will be the toughest to debate. Simply put, so far eight guys have posted, citing seven different "unbreakable" records and the simple fact of the matter is, I suspect all eight of us are correct. It is difficult to debate some guy's choice for unbreakable record when in all honesty, you think the guy is correct and the record he cites is truly unbreakable.

I guess it comes down more to a question of likelihood of breaking the record, even if you feel breaking the record in question isn't very likely. And I guess it can be debated in terms of which record is most impressive, or what are the reasons why a record in question would be deemed to be unbreakable.

I was kidding with GD earlier in his selection of Johnny Vander Meer. Fact of the matter is, pitching 3 consecutive no hitters is not very likely. However of the records suggested thus far, I would suggest that this is the most likely record to be beaten or at least equalled. Any record spanning a short time interval has to be more subject to defeat than a more extended one. A three game streak is easier to match than a single season record, which in turn is easier to match than a career accomplishment. Fact of the matter is, while unlikely, a guy can get hot, a team can get hot, and string together an impressive feat in three consecutive games. Plus, just doing it twice would tie the record. Granted this would not technically mean beating the record, but just tying it would diminish it's overall significance.

The DiMaggio streak suggested by Megatron is another legendary one, but again, it will be difficult to beat but it can be done. Again, it's one season, in fact just a third of a season, as opposed to a career stat. Guys have made it into the 30's and 40's before. Pitching is more dilute these days than ever. Questionable scoring practices or shaky umpiring can extend streaks. It won't be easy to equal or beat this record, but it can and possibly will be done.

Gretzky's stats are really hard to demean. The man is a legend, especially here in Canada. 1963 assists (LJL) or 2857 points (TPP) are career stats that will be extremely tough to equal. Honestly, I don't think either of these two records will ever fall. However, the NHL game is evolving more rapidly than some of the other pro sports. With rule changes to prevent or at least limit obstruction, with an intent to increase scoring and maintain interest amongst the ever impatient American audience, this could lead to increased scoring outputs. As the leagues cracks down on violence and becomes ever more aware of concussion issues, the game tends to open up even more. Talks occur of lengthening the season, and more games means more goals, potentially. Hell, there have even been discussions of increasing the size of the nets, or restricting the size of goalie pads, all to try to increase scoring. If the leagues continues to take measures to increase scoring by some or all of these measures, and the next protogee, the next Great One, the next budding superstar happens to come along at the same time, who knows what the future could hold? A hot young prospect in a longer season playing in a talent-diluted league, with bigger nets, smaller goalie pads, and less physicality, and a longer career due to less wear and tear on the body for the above reasons, and who knows? It's unlikely Gretzky's accomplishments are at risk, but certainly not impossible.

Which brings us to Mr. Young as discussed by CHDavid, Big Sexy, and LSN80. Whether it be career victories or number of complete games, here we have records than have to be seen as untouchable. These guys have done an excellent job already saying why, so I won't even go there. However, these records are untouchable because of the changing nature of the game. With 5-man rotations, pitch counts, contract issues, the development of middle relievers and closers, etc., these stats are untouchable because of the changing nature of the game. I guess in a way I am helping these guys make their arguments because they are correct; the very fact that the way the game is played now is different is in and of itself what makes the records unbreakable. But for me, this lessens their significance. I realize this is not what the question was asking, but even still, I am more impressed with a record such as the career base hits totals amassed by Pete Rose, which are within the realm of what could be challenged within the current manner in which the game is played, yet likely won't be because the task is too daunting. Hitting singles, as well as extra base hits, at a torrid pace over two decades is still something that today's game would allow, yet I suggest it won't ever happen because there's no one in a position to do so and there likely won't ever be. As opposed to the Cy Young stats which will never be equalled because realistically, no one will ever be granted a chance by management or ownership to take a run at it. This is not to cheapen Cy Young's stats, hell, they didn't name an award after him for nothing. But I am far more impressed with Pete Rose's career numbers. They will never be equalled, and as such, is my suggestion for most unbreakable record.

 

[gd]

Everthing you've said has been correct hatehabs, more or less, but the problem is you approached the question from the wrong angle to start with. It's not about the most impressive record, it's about the most unbreakable, which are two completely different things. Pete Rose's record may have been more of an accomplishment and taken more hard work and skill than any of the other records up here, but that doens't mean it's the most unbreakable. In fact, it's one of the most breakable records in the entire thread, which is your problem.

Also, it wasn't a concussion I was out with. I actually had a bad skiing accident and had to have half of my left leg amputated. But thanks for your concern.

As far as arguing agianst some of the tougher ones here, like Cy Young, it's difficult to do. Sure, it isn't likely somone is going to throw that many complete games, but 3 no hitters isn't likely either. In fact, I'm going to put a number on it to show exactly how unbreakable it is.

Let's look at the best case scenario. Nolan Ryan is by far the best pitcher ever when it comes to no hitters with 7. However, he obviously never threw 2 in a row, let alone 3. If we take the number of no hitters Ryan threw (7) and divide it be total career starts (773), we get the probability of him throwing a no hitter in any one game, which is about .009. However, that's just one no hitter. If we take that number to the third power to determine the probability of 3 consecutive no hitters we get a far smaller probability of .000007426, a ridiculously smalle number. And that is using the statistics of the best pitcher of all time. We have to assume with the way the game is today and with the fact that only 4 other pitchers have more than 2 no hitters that the actual probablility of 3 straight no hitters by the same pitcher is much lower.

There are going to be a lot of hypothetical situations going on here and this one is almost impossible to argue, but I think some of my concrete evidence can be really effective here.

 

[LSN80]

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For me, without much thought, it simply HAS to be Joe Dimaggio's 56 game hitting streak. I think baseball is the toughest sport to master out of them all, and even the best hitters today have games where they go 0-3 or 0-4 and no one makes a big deal out of it since baseball's a long, grinding season and sometimes you're just gonna have those days where it's not on. Only one person (Pete Rose in 78), has even reached 40 games.

Actually, Willie Keeler(with 45 games in 1896), Pete Rose(44 in 1978), Bill Dahlen(42 in 1894), George Sisler(41 in 1922) and Ty Cobb(40 in 1911) have all reached 40 games. Recently, Jimmy RFollins had a 38 game hitting streak in 2006. While DiMaggio's streak is impressive, it's not within the realm of impossibility that someone such as a Rollins, Albert Pujols, or the next great hitter could match DiMaggio. It may be unlikely, but it's possible, which doesn't make it unbreakable in and of itself.

Originally posted by HateHabsForever
The most unbreakable record in the history of sports is Pete Rose's career base hits record of 4256.

The problem with this is that someone in the "pitching age" of baseball 's career hit's total is only 67 behind Rose for his career, and that was Ty Cobb. When someone is that close to your record, it's conceivable to think that someone else could come along and do the same, especially with baseball being much more "hitter friendly" then ever. You picked an incredibly impressive record Habs, but not one that's definitively unbreakable. It's not impossible to imagine an 18 year old phenom debuting in the major leagues and breaking the record.

Originally Posted by General Disarray
Obviously it's Johnny Vander Meer. who was average at best. However, he did throw two consecutive no hitters, on against the Boston Braves and another against the Dodgers in the first ever night game at Ebbets field.
Tell me how that is ever possibly going to be broken, which would require a pitcher to throw 3 consecutive no hitters. There are barely 3 no hitters in an entire MLB season, let alone 3 by the same pitcher, let alone in 3 straight starts. Simply put, it will never, ever happen.

This is another one I have a distinct problem with. It's incredibly impressive for a pitcher to throw consecutive no-hitters, and 3 in a row would be very difficult. That would equate to 27 innings of baseball allowing no hits. While it didn't count as more then one no-hitter, Cy Young had 24 hitless innings from the 3rd inning April 25, through the 6th inning on May 11, 1904. That equates to over two games, total, of hitless baseball. While they weren't done in the form of no-hitters, the total number of hitless innings in a row equated to more then 2 no hit games. More recently, Mark Beuhrle came within 3 innings of consecutive perfect games with 15 straight perfect innings. Seeing how this record has been approached before, it's not inconceivable that a pitcher could equal or top it as well.

Originally Posted by Boy George Constanza
Joe DiMaggio's hitting streak is child's play compared to what I'm about to bring to the table. I thought about going with Cy Young's 511 wins but that was too easy and besides, baseball is different today than the days of yesteryear and I felt it would be too unfair. There have been great athletes who seemingly were head and shoulders above anyone in their sport. There's one man in my opinion who stands above them all and that is Wayne Gretzky. The most unbreakable record is his 1963 career assists.

And hockey is a different game today then it was when Gretzky and Lemiuex played. Im not arguing against your choice for that reason, just noting that gone are the days of wide open hockey, when Gretzky scored 215 points in 1985/86, and Lemieux scored 199 points in just 76 games in 1988-89. The top 37 scoring leaders in a single season all occurred more then 20 years ago. So baseball isn't the only sport that has changed from yesteryear.

You yourself noted that Sidney Crosby would have to average only 80 assists within the next 20 years to break Gretzky's record. As the NHL continues to become more scoring friendly, Crosby is very capable of doing this. If anyone has the conditioning to keep up that type of pace until he's 44, it's Sidney Crosby. Crosby has been labeled as the "next Gretzky" in many ways, and should certainly be viewed as a threat to Gretzky's record.

Which once again brings me back to Cy Young. The only reason it matters that baseball was a different game back in his day is that pitchers weren't kept on short leashes, and often pitched every 3 days. The last player in the past 40 years to even break 200 complete games for his career was Tom Seaver with 231, which is an astonishing 518 games behind Cy Young. In the era of inning and pitch counts, this record will never be touched or even come close to, which makes it the ultimate most unbreakable record.

 

[gd]

This is another one I have a distinct problem with. It's incredibly impressive for a pitcher to throw consecutive no-hitters, and 3 in a row would be very difficult. That would equate to 27 innings of baseball allowing no hits. While it didn't count as more then one no-hitter, Cy Young had 24 hitless innings from the 3rd inning April 25, through the 6th inning on May 11, 1904. That equates to over two games, total, of hitless baseball. While they weren't done in the form of no-hitters, the total number of hitless innings in a row equated to more then 2 no hit games. More recently, Mark Beuhrle came within 3 innings of consecutive perfect games with 15 straight perfect innings. Seeing how this record has been approached before, it's not inconceivable that a pitcher could equal or top it as well.

The problem is you're looking at no hitters completely wrong. While the point about people being only a certain number of assists or hits away is a valid one, you can't make the same case for no hitters, because they are all or nothing. You can't say so and so was pitched this many consecutive no hit innings, that isn't the feat. The feat is consecutive no hitters, which is completely different from consecutive no hit innings. It is a far, far more difficult task. In addition, there is an infinitely greater amount of pressure when an actual no hitter is on the line. And like you said in your post, baseball is more "hitter friendly" than ever, especially with the slight decrease of long balls over the last few years base hits are all the rage.

Despite all of your claims of people that have come close, no one has even gotten 2 no hitters in a row, when they need 3 for the record. That is, no one has even accomplised more than 33% of what it takes to break Vander Meer's record.

 

[LSN80]

The problem is you're looking at no hitters completely wrong. While the point about people being only a certain number of assists or hits away is a valid one, you can't make the same case for no hitters, because they are all or nothing. You can't say so and so was pitched this many consecutive no hit innings, that isn't the feat. The feat is consecutive no hitters, which is completely different from consecutive no hit innings. It is a far, far more difficult task. In addition, there is an infinitely greater amount of pressure when an actual no hitter is on the line. And like you said in your post, baseball is more "hitter friendly" than ever, especially with the slight decrease of long balls over the last few years base hits are all the rage.

Despite all of your claims of people that have come close, no one has even gotten 2 no hitters in a row, when they need 3 for the record. That is, no one has even accomplised more than 33% of what it takes to break Vander Meer's record.

Im not looking at this all wrong, as I see that Vander Meer's record is quite a valid one, and quite the difficult task. My point in bringing up Buerhle was that he was 3 innings away from tying that very record, which isn't that far off. It doesn't matter that he only had one no hitter in a row, he was within 3 innings of completing the extremely difficult task before falling apart. Vander Meer's record is among the most impressive and unbreakable records, without question. Ill even concede that noone has come within 33% of breaking his record, but 269 have come within 50% of tying it. The possibility is there.

What makes Cy Young's record of 749 complete games more impressive is that among active players, Roy Halladay is closest at 58. That puts him 691 behind Young, at age 33. That's only 12.7% of the way towards tying the record. Of any record listed, it's easily the most unbreakable, both mathematically and realistically.

 

[gd]

Im not looking at this all wrong, as I see that Vander Meer's record is quite a valid one, and quite the difficult task. My point in bringing up Buerhle was that he was 3 innings away from tying that very record, which isn't that far off. It doesn't matter that he only had one no hitter in a row, he was within 3 innings of completing the extremely difficult task before falling apart. Vander Meer's record is among the most impressive and unbreakable records, without question. Ill even concede that noone has come within 33% of breaking his record, but 269 have come within 50% of tying it. The possibility is there.

What makes Cy Young's record of 749 complete games more impressive is that among active players, Roy Halladay is closest at 58. That puts him 691 behind Young, at age 33. That's only 12.7% of the way towards tying the record. Of any record listed, it's easily the most unbreakable, both mathematically and realistically.

We're about to get real hypothetical here, but stay with me. With all the new technology and medical junk and whatnot, isn't it possible that we'll eventually get to a point where pitchers could be pitching 3 times a week, and pitching the whole games at that. Of course, I have no basis for this, but it is a possiblity that in 100 or maybe 200 years the rules of the game and technology are likely going to be completely different that they are nowadays, making it much more possible to break a record such as Young's, which takes endurance more than anything. Endurance can be increased by various factors over time.

With Vander Meer's, you'll need an incredible amount of luck more than anything. Regardless of how many years in the future we look, no one is going to be able to manipulate luck.

 

[hatehabsforever]

The thing with Vander Meer's record is that it is short. Realistically, while it would take three consecutive no hitters to break the record, pitching two consecutive no hitters would obviously tie it, and tying a record of this nature would largely discredit its significance. So any time any guy pitches a no hitter, he's half way there. I'm not suggesting pitching back to back no hitters would be easy to do, but let's face it, if Buerhle can make a decent run at it, it has to be inevitable that someone will do it someday. Strasburg, Halladay, pick a name. Sure the game has become more hitter friendly, but there are still stadiums which are notoriously pitcher friendly. Put a quality starter into one of these stadiums during a hot streak, and back to back no-no's can definitely occur.

In contrast, who is going to come along and challenge Rose's feat? The closest active player is over 1200 hits behind him and he's clearly in the twilight of his career, despite what his recent contract would suggest. I cannot think of one guy who is currently playing that I think would have even a remote chance to come anywhere near Pete Rose. Look at the names of the retired guys who had legendary Hall of Fame careers who finished a thousand hits off the pace, give or take. Think about it. 21 consecutive seasons of 200 hits. We'll never see it. For some 18 year old hot shot to come along, hit 200 hits, and then do it 20 more times, in a row, I just cannot see it ever happening.

Cy Young's records are safe and likely unbreakable because the change in the way MLB is played won't allow anyone to even have a shot at it. This demeans the record in my opinion. Sure it makes it unbreakable, but I am more impressed by a statistic which the modern game could potentially allow, but still won't happen. Hitters today still play the same number of games. They still have the same number of at bats as ever. The dimensions of the ballpark have not changed, the way defense is played is the same, so technically speaking, some guy should be able to come along and have a shot. Except it will never happen.

Pete Rose's career hit total is safe. So are Cy Young's records. To me, Rose's record is more impressive and every bit as unbreakable.

 

[gd]

The thing with Vander Meer's record is that it is short. Realistically, while it would take three consecutive no hitters to break the record, pitching two consecutive no hitters would obviously tie it, and tying a record of this nature would largely discredit its significance. So any time any guy pitches a no hitter, he's half way there. I'm not suggesting pitching back to back no hitters would be easy to do, but let's face it, if Buerhle can make a decent run at it, it has to be inevitable that someone will do it someday. Strasburg, Halladay, pick a name. Sure the game has become more hitter friendly, but there are still stadiums which are notoriously pitcher friendly. Put a quality starter into one of these stadiums during a hot streak, and back to back no-no's can definitely occur.

If someoen ties it, it is not broken. The question is most unbreakable, and 3 no hitters in a row is just ludicrous. As I showed with the stats, the odds of Nolan Ryan throwing 3 straight no hitters were well over a million to one and he was the best of the best when it comes to no hitters. Realisitically, the probablitily is much less.

But yeah, breaking the record would require 3 no hitters, not 2. Let's get that straight.

 

[hatehabsforever]

If someoen ties it, it is not broken. The question is most unbreakable, and 3 no hitters in a row is just ludicrous. As I showed with the stats, the odds of Nolan Ryan throwing 3 straight no hitters were well over a million to one and he was the best of the best when it comes to no hitters. Realisitically, the probablitily is much less.

But yeah, breaking the record would require 3 no hitters, not 2. Let's get that straight.

Technically speaking you are correct. 2 consecutive no hitters would not actually break the record, that would take three. But I still maintain that tying the record large invalidates it. An unbreakable record is only significant if it stands alone. Someone tying it would diminish the record.

As such, if someone were to come along and stroke 4256 career base hits, that would tie Pete Rose's accomplishment. Technically it would not break it, but it would detract from the value of it. Only problem with this? It will never happen, not in a million years.

 

[LSN80]

We're about to get real hypothetical here, but stay with me. With all the new technology and medical junk and whatnot, isn't it possible that we'll eventually get to a point where pitchers could be pitching 3 times a week, and pitching the whole games at that. Of course, I have no basis for this, but it is a possiblity that in 100 or maybe 200 years the rules of the game and technology are likely going to be completely different that they are nowadays, making it much more possible to break a record such as Young's, which takes endurance more than anything. Endurance can be increased by various factors over time..

I generally respect your opinion and like you as a fellow Steelers fan, but Im not following you here. Reason being is that baseball has progressed in a fashion that teams even go to 6 man rotations at times, and the length of careers for pitchers are quite shorter then they were 100 years ago. Any and all proof points to that trend continuing, rather then reverting back to the way things were in Young's day. Even a pitcher like Jamie Moyer who has pitched 24 years in the Major Leagues has only 33 career complete games. I understand what you were saying was purely hypothetical, but it's also extremely unrealistic.

With Vander Meer's, you'll need an incredible amount of luck more than anything. Regardless of how many years in the future we look, no one is going to be able to manipulate luck.

I think it would take skill more then anything for this to happen. When a rookie phenom such as Stephen Strasburg debuts and 4 hits a team in said debut, he's only going to get better. With a fastball that reaches above 100 miles per hour at times, it's not completely unrealistic that a pitcher like this could use skill to break Van Der Meer's record. Im not saying it's going to happen, just proposing hypothetical's as you were.

Originally posted by HateHabsForever
In contrast, who is going to come along and challenge Rose's feat? The closest active player is over 1200 hits behind him and he's clearly in the twilight of his career, despite what his recent contract would suggest. I cannot think of one guy who is currently playing that I think would have even a remote chance to come anywhere near Pete Rose. Look at the names of the retired guys who had legendary Hall of Fame careers who finished a thousand hits off the pace, give or take. Think about it. 21 consecutive seasons of 200 hits. We'll never see it. For some 18 year old hot shot to come along, hit 200 hits, and then do it 20 more times, in a row, I just cannot see it ever happening.

But Jeter hypothetically would need only 6 more seasons of 200 hits to break Rose's record. And as you said, Jeter just signed a new contract. He's at an age(36) where it's not hard to envision him playing 6 or 7 more years. If he plays at his current level, it's quite plausible that he could break Rose's record.

Cy Young's records are safe and likely unbreakable because the change in the way MLB is played won't allow anyone to even have a shot at it. This demeans the record in my opinion. Sure it makes it unbreakable, but I am more impressed by a statistic which the modern game could potentially allow, but still won't happen. Hitters today still play the same number of games. They still have the same number of at bats as ever. The dimensions of the ballpark have not changed, the way defense is played is the same, so technically speaking, some guy should be able to come along and have a shot. Except it will never happen.

Pete Rose's career hit total is safe. So are Cy Young's records. To me, Rose's record is more impressive and every bit as unbreakable.

Chnages in baseball make Young's record even more unbreakable, so it doesn't matter if noone will have a shot at it. This isn't a debate about fairness, it's about the most unbreakable record. It has nothing to do with what is allowable within the modern game. It also doesn't matter which is more impressive, which is for another argument. We could easily debate that one as well, Habs. The only thing that matters is which record is most unbreakable, and it's easy to see that Young's record is safer then any record in the history of any sport.