Too young to know any different?

HBK-aholic

Shawn Michaels ❤
Today in my Philosophy, Theology and Ethics class we were studying the case of Jamie Bulger. For those that don't know, Bulger was 2 year old boy abducted from a shopping centre in 1993 by two 10 year old boys. He was then beaten and murdered, and found mutilated on a railway track.

The two boys that did this are now free, and have been given completely new identities. Many have said they were too young to understand, and the court of Human Rights said they were too young to understand the court proceedings. (Anyone else find the irony in murderers complaining to a Human Rights court?) Due to the court ruling this, their minimum sentence was reduced.

Do you think this is right? Personally, I think using their age is bullshit, I have a 7 year old who knows this is wrong. And they should definitely still be in prison. Bulger would be the same age as me now, yet his life was ended by two assholes. Their life should also be ended - not by use of capital punishment, but by life in prison meaning life.
 
No age isn't a case where age should play a role. When I was 10 I didn't know as much as I do now but I knew it was wrong to hurt someone, especially a child for crying out loud. This is why I have little sympathy for people that plead insanity or something like this. Murder is murder to me. They took another person's life and it wasn't by accident. So what they've been given new identities? Why do they deserve that? If they're too young to understand, lock them in jail until they're old enough to understand then put them on trial. How hard is it to understand the following: you killed someone. You're going to jail forever. There's your court proceedings.
 
Becca...on what grounds can you determine that this is "right" or "wrong"? If we are talking straight ethics here, then there needs to be some kind of basis for this being deemed right or wrong. Just because a 7 year-old knows that this is "right" doesn't mean it can necessarily apply to these boys.

Now, I definitely don't think it's "good" that these boys did that. I think they were completely out of line in their actions and should have some kind of punishment. But what about the parents? I think there has to be some kind of punishment for them as well. I can't see that engaging in effective parenting would yield this kind of activity from these boys, as they would have good social values and such ingrained in them.
 
The boys themselves I believe were to young, and probably did not have developed reasoning skills. But because reasoning skills to not develop at a exact certain age, and there are many people of wider ages who have not hit an age of reason, ever 18 is a tough number. If anything, these poor boys need a lot of counselling to deal with the life ahead of them, a life filled with more pain than any prison could bestow on them.

They did a horrible thing, but if they were of age, I suspect that they would not be charged for murder, instead, they would probably spend the rest of their lives in a facility.
 
Steamboat Ricky has hit it right on the head, the parents are to blame. Everyone who has said "I knew not to do that" had a proper upbringing, these boys obviously did not. The boys need taking away from their parents and counselled for a long period of time before starting a fresh, but under close scrutiny to start with. Any signs or wrongdoing and they can be shot in prison.

Another thing to look for is remorse. If they showed no remorse at all to killing the child they are a danger to society. Remorse shows they now understand what they did was wrong and they can better themselves and eventually lead a proper life.
 
Becca...on what grounds can you determine that this is "right" or "wrong"? If we are talking straight ethics here, then there needs to be some kind of basis for this being deemed right or wrong.

Legal/illegal would be a good place to start. At the very least, Murder is wrong.

Just because a 7 year-old knows that this is "right" doesn't mean it can necessarily apply to these boys.

But if a 7 year old knows it, you'd think it'd be pretty obvious to two 10 year olds.

Now, I definitely don't think it's "good" that these boys did that. I think they were completely out of line in their actions and should have some kind of punishment. But what about the parents? I think there has to be some kind of punishment for them as well. I can't see that engaging in effective parenting would yield this kind of activity from these boys, as they would have good social values and such ingrained in them.

Depends if you believe you can blame parents for anti-social behavoiur, or in this case murder. I think in most cases, no, you can't. I have a brother, who's an asshole. Been excluded from school etc. Yet then there's me, wanting to be a teacher. It's for that reason I think parents aren't as much at fault as people like to make out.
 
Bullshit. I knew what was "right" and "wrong" when I was about five. Maybe it was incredibly advanced, but I knew. I definitely knew that murdering little boys - I believe he had paint poured into his eyes and batteries pushed up his anus, though that could easily be internet bullshit - was wrong.

Besides, I don't care how amoral someone is. If a mental case butchers someone, do you go "oh, that's just Johnny; he's a character like that!"? No, you don't.
 
Legal/illegal would be a good place to start. At the very least, Murder is wrong.

Legal/illegal is a good start but only if you are defining laws as the determinate of universal "rights" and "wrongs." And I sense that you are attempting to classify murder as being a universal "wrong." But here, you fail to give reasoning as to why murder is a universal wrong. I challenge you to do so, as I think that providing a reason for murder to be "universally" "wrong" would be a difficult task, indeed.



But if a 7 year old knows it, you'd think it'd be pretty obvious to two 10 year olds.


7 years-olds know a whole lot more about friggin Pokemon and whatever else kids do these days than I do. Yet, those things should be obvious to me because I'm approaching 23 years of age?



Depends if you believe you can blame parents for anti-social behavoiur, or in this case murder. I think in most cases, no, you can't. I have a brother, who's an asshole. Been excluded from school etc. Yet then there's me, wanting to be a teacher. It's for that reason I think parents aren't as much at fault as people like to make out.

Here's a thought: supervision. How the heck are kids so unsupervised that they walk into a store, abduct a child, and kill it...without people noticing? I think that could be labeled as neglect at some levels.
 
Ricky has a point, that I don't think either Becca, nor Sam has spotted. I gathered these two quotes in effect with why what Ricky said.. isn't registering.

But if a 7 year old knows it, you'd think it'd be pretty obvious to two 10 year olds.

Bullshit. I knew what was "right" and "wrong" when I was about five. Maybe it was incredibly advanced, but I knew.

Just because you know someone younger, or you were someone younger, and you/they knew the difference.. does not mean, that either of the two 10 yr. old boys did. Mental issues could've been playing into the issue. Parental teachings. The way they were raised in general. Several issues could've come into play, with why just because at age 10 you SHOULD be smart enough to know murder is wrong.. doesn't mean you WILL know it.

And did you see the body? I think I read the word "mutilated", which would bring intent to know what they did wasn't just wrong.. but sick and twisted to boot. You do not mutilate someone, without a very mental issue at hand. Thus, 10 years old or not.. they may not of been completely there in the head.

Do I think they should've been set free and given new lives? Fuck no. But I don't think life in prison is the correct answer, either. Not unless they did it purely out of doing it.

If mental issues came into play, you need to attempt helping, before destroying. And if help can not be had, then life in prison is pointless and stupid and a pure death sentence may need to come into play.

However, none of us can properly "judge" this situation, because we only get the front page paper news clippings. And are lead to assume the fill-ins.
 
Legal/illegal is a good start but only if you are defining laws as the determinate of universal "rights" and "wrongs." And I sense that you are attempting to classify murder as being a universal "wrong." But here, you fail to give reasoning as to why murder is a universal wrong. I challenge you to do so, as I think that providing a reason for murder to be "universally" "wrong" would be a difficult task, indeed.

Um, are you trying to tell me that murder isn't "wrong"? I don't even know what you're getting at here.


7 years-olds know a whole lot more about friggin Pokemon and whatever else kids do these days than I do. Yet, those things should be obvious to me because I'm approaching 23 years of age?

Not the point. The point is, put simply, murder is illegal. You know that, kids should know that.


Here's a thought: supervision. How the heck are kids so unsupervised that they walk into a store, abduct a child, and kill it...without people noticing? I think that could be labeled as neglect at some levels.

That is a good point, although most parents do seem to let children around the age of 10 go out as they please. While not something I'd do, is that wrong?


Just because you know someone younger, or you were someone younger, and you/they knew the difference.. does not mean, that either of the two 10 yr. old boys did. Mental issues could've been playing into the issue. Parental teachings. The way they were raised in general. Several issues could've come into play, with why just because at age 10 you SHOULD be smart enough to know murder is wrong.. doesn't mean you WILL know it.

I dislike thie argument, as I think you could then apply this to anyone. And 10 is, legally, the age children are defined as being responsible for their crimes. But if yo realy want to use this argument, where does it stop? 15 year old? 18 year old? There has to be a cut off point somewhere, by law that's 10.

And did you see the body? I think I read the word "mutilated", which would bring intent to know what they did wasn't just wrong.. but sick and twisted to boot. You do not mutilate someone, without a very mental issue at hand. Thus, 10 years old or not.. they may not of been completely there in the head.

Maybe they were just bastards?

Do I think they should've been set free and given new lives? Fuck no. But I don't think life in prison is the correct answer, either. Not unless they did it purely out of doing it.

They should be in prison for life. Imagine how the mother of that 2 year old feels, and then imagine these 2 people back on the streets, carrying on their life as if nothing had happened. Life in prison should mean life, and they should get it.

If mental issues came into play, you need to attempt helping, before destroying.

IF it came into play. Which I don't think it did.

And if help can not be had, then life in prison is pointless and stupid and a pure death sentence may need to come into play.

I disagree, while I have always been for the death penalty, I think life in prison would torture them more. Solitary confinement, with the bare minimum of human communication. If we're lucky they'll kill themselves.

However, none of us can properly "judge" this situation, because we only get the front page paper news clippings. And are lead to assume the fill-ins.

The facts: Two 10 year old boys abducted and murdered a 2 year old, who was found mutiliated on a railway track. I think I can judge the situation pretty accurately.
 
Um, are you trying to tell me that murder isn't "wrong"? I don't even know what you're getting at here.

I don't see how "murder" can be "wrong" in and of itself. It would seem that you would have to be buying into some belief system or ethical formula. Unless you are buying into a system that states that it is wrong according to rules or guidelines, then it can't be wrong. It can only be good or bad based on its effect on outside entities.
 
The boys really can't be blamed for this. Just because the law, and our judgment my deem it wrong doesn't mean they thought the same way. Its true that by the age of 10 they should have a minimal understanding of what society considers right and wrong, but what if the environment they grew up in didn't deem beating a little boy to death was wrong? We have no idea what type of values their parents bestowed upon them. Nor how they were raised. It's ether their parents didn't do their jobs properly, or they may have some type of mental illness. I agree the boys do deserve some type of punishment so they can understand what they have done, but jail for life is a tad bit overboard.
 
What if the environment they grew up in didn't teach them that torturing a small child to death wasn't bad? Then boo hoo, too fucking bad, get in the jail cell, you completely warped motherfuckers.

I don't care if they were mental, if they were emotionally stunted, if their parents set the example by torturing little children to death in front of them, if they were actually terminators sent back in time to eliminate the leader of the resistance or any of that.
 
There is a stark difference between knowing the difference between right and wrong, and understanding the consequences of one's actions. Yes, at ten an understanding of the fact that murder is (i) wrong and (ii) illegal "should"/is in place (assuming "normal" upbringing, "normal" mental states). But at ten, the consequence for that (or any) wrong act does not even begin to manifest. What was the worst thing to happen to us as kids when we did something wrong -- grounding, yelling, spanking, a combination of all three? Those are a far cry from the penalties the legal system imposes.

On the subject of the legality and wrongfulness/rightfulness of murder... it is my belief that no one has the "right" to take the life of another, regardless the age or reason. Legality and morality are not always the same, although often we will claim that they are. Killing is against legal law and is also against moral law; "Thou shalt not kill," and whatever stature is applicable to your place of residence come the crime of murder. But, again, legality and morality, as often as they cross paths, are two different things, and we make exceptions and even "understand" the impulse to take the life of another over some reason, like the murder of a relative or whatever. In our eyes, that's "justice." In reality, however, a life for a life ends in the extermination of all people. Life in prison, assuming the prison is not corrupt and overcrowded, might be the "best" punishment: time to reflect, to make amends, to possibly grow as a person... but this is getting onto a soap-box, so I'll cease.

The point is that everything is connected, no matter how we try to slice it or look at it. Look where this conversation has veered already: morality, ethics, legality, parental responsibility. It's all one big tangled web -- if the parents are absent, the kids don't know right from wrong and commit vicious and heinous crimes against moral and legal law. But if we're going to blame the parents, let's ask "Why aren't the parents there?" If the answer is that (a) both parents are drunkards or cocaine addicts or some other atrocity, then we can indeed blame the parents. But if it turns out that the parents are (b) a single mother working four jobs to make rent, then can we really blame the parents? (I guess can we even blame the drunkards or addicts, as they are in need of help too, and may be reverting to a self-preservation mechanism as a reaction to something in their own past, etc) If the economy around the parents is falling apart, and they have no time for anything but making sure a roof over their children's heads is paid for, where did they go wrong?

For that matter, why didn't the schools interfere and where were the teachers? Why weren't the kids being taught about right, wrong and consequences at school? What are we teaching our youngsters if two ten year olds can kill a two year old?!

There's plenty of people and directions to toss the blame at. The fact of the matter is that there isn't one satisfactory answer to this... or issues of any sort (or like this). I think that even if they knew right from wrong, I maintain that they did not know the consequences of their actions and it was "playing gone wrong," and then again maybe they were mentally ill abused sociopaths who didn't give a fuck from a broken home and an impoverished family and neighborhood who were lashing out and asking for attention...

It happened. Now what do we do as a society to ensure that something like it never happens again? I can say one thing with certainty: We can stop passing the blame and work towards prevention, not reaction. Studying this case and discussing it is a good start. Never forgetting and looking for warning signs, and restructuring the core value system of the future generations? Even better....
 
Today in my Philosophy, Theology and Ethics class we were studying the case of Jamie Bulger. For those that don't know, Bulger was 2 year old boy abducted from a shopping centre in 1993 by two 10 year old boys. He was then beaten and murdered, and found mutilated on a railway track.

The two boys that did this are now free, and have been given completely new identities. Many have said they were too young to understand, and the court of Human Rights said they were too young to understand the court proceedings. (Anyone else find the irony in murderers complaining to a Human Rights court?) Due to the court ruling this, their minimum sentence was reduced.

Do you think this is right? Personally, I think using their age is bullshit, I have a 7 year old who knows this is wrong. And they should definitely still be in prison. Bulger would be the same age as me now, yet his life was ended by two assholes. Their life should also be ended - not by use of capital punishment, but by life in prison meaning life.


While I'm not arguing your point, I do have to share opinion. While I don't think that the courts ruling was a good one, I do have to say that at a certain age, children lack the ability to understand the finality of their actions. Perfect example... Here in Arizona, where I live, there was an 8 year old boy who killed his father and fathers friend. He shot them both with a .22 rifle. Police later found out that the child had made a journal, chronicling the "spankings" he received. He had stated in this journal that "1000 was his limit". Now, while I don't argue with the fact that this child was abused, He knew what he was planning on doing, and he followed through. Now, in this case I don't believe he understood the finality in what he was planning on doing. Maybe it wasn't his intent to "kill" them, but merely "scare" them. Was he ever properly taught that guns can REALLY hurt someone? Who knows? The end result on the case, was that the boy would serve no jail time, would undergo psychological evaluations every 2 years, and would be allowed to basically live free.

The 2 boys in your story however, I believe knew EXACTLY what they were doing when they did it. They had enough presence of mind to lure the child, knowingly take him somewhere, shove a battery up his ass, and beat him to death. If that doesn't sound like some sort of malicious planned attack, nothing does. In all honesty, are these guys the same kind of people they were back then? More than likely not. But that doesn't excuse what they did. They should have suffered some sort of penalties for what they did. It's a damn shame that society has come to give special treatment to people based on "Age". I say, if you're old enough to distinguish right from wrong, there should be no special treatment.

There was another bizarre case here in Arizona a couple of weeks ago that still blows me away... A 2 year old child, has been named the murderer of his 9 year old brother. A 2 YEAR OLD CHILD, SHOT A 9 YEAR OLD! I don't even think that it's even possible for a 2 year old to steadily hold again, let alone squeeze a goddamn trigger. Hmmm...I wonder if he'll be charged as an adult? He'll get 10 years and be eligible for parole just in time for puberty.....
 
Depends if you believe you can blame parents for anti-social behavoiur, or in this case murder. I think in most cases, no, you can't. I have a brother, who's an asshole. Been excluded from school etc. Yet then there's me, wanting to be a teacher. It's for that reason I think parents aren't as much at fault as people like to make out.

I honestly believe that everybody reaches a certain age that their lives start to become a product of their own choices. There comes an age, where upbringing, parental role "modeling", and social situation become irrelevant. My parents brought me, my brother, and my sister up the same way. I moved out at 18, got a job, an apartment, a car, etc. I've NEVER moved back home and I'm married and have children. My brother grew up, moved out at 22, became a drug dealer, and a "higher up" in a local cartel in Mexico. My sister, graduated high school, moved out when she was 19, back in, back out, back in again...Applied for College...then got pregnant. Same upbringing, different outcomes... There comes a point where you can't blame the parents anymore. What someone becomes is ultimately up to that person. I don't believe that a 10 year old is totally responsible for his actions, in that somewhere in the chain of upbringing, a link was broken. If it were true that a 10 year old was in total control of his actions, the outcome, consequences, and subsequent fallout, we'd all be allowed to leave home at the age of 8. Someone should have been held accountable and if not the kids, then the parents. I mean, what were two 10 year old boys doing alone at a mall, where they had the ability to kidnap a 2 year old in the first place???
 

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