Time Limits in Matches

[Steve-O-Matt]

So, if you're a listener to JR's podcast, you might of heard him talking about having time limits in matches. He would talk quite a bit about it and how it can help and I have to admit, I agree with everything he says on the matter. Now at this point, it would be impossible for the WWE to impose time limits in matches, as it would just stick out at this point. But the real question is "Would you preferred to have time limits in the first place?" Here are some of the positives that would come from it.

1) It would give the wrestler's a solid time to aim for, helping them plan out the match a lot better.

2) Time limit draws gives a new result to matches.

3) It could reduce the number of matches ending in DQs.

4) It would make match lengths more believeable (because at the moment there's still the floating possibility of having the first match last the entire show).

What do you guys think? I like it, because it makes me think of things like Rocky. Where Apollo Creed destroys people in the first few rounds but then Rocky takes him to the limit! They could something like that. Plus, a match ending in a draw, I like the idea of. I know Americans HATE draws, but I think seeing two guys beat up, standing there with their 20 minutes up, shaking hands would be a cool thing.

 

[Softcore Holly]

Eh....I'm sorry but I think I would hate for a match to end that way. It's a cheap cop-out to protect both men from losing and would only leave the audience very unsatisfied. Plus I don't want to watch a clock while the guys are wrestling outside of a iron man match or the beat the clocks, I much rather have no idea when the match is going to end since that leaves the "anything can happen at any moment" feeling. (again the IM/BTC matches are the only exceptions) If there was a time limit then we know they're only going something for the last minute if we see that the match is going long. But anyway

1. The guys are already given a time to shoot for, and one of the ref's job is to help make sure they keep it. I remember a funny story Lance Storm wrote about where he had to keep on asking a nearby fan to see his watch just to help make sure that his match didn't go over.

Of course that doesn't always happen for the bigger stars(DB vs HHH obviously went longer than intended) but for the most part the system is already there.

2. New isn't always better

3. I don't see the connection between DQs and time limits.

4. I've never found that possibility to be a problem. I don't think it's even remotely possible outside of paper for so many reasons, one of which that someone like Vince or HHH getting totally POed at that kind of thing ruining their all plans for the rest of the show and quickly pulling the plug before things got out of hand.

Sorry for being so blunt, but this is a serious no thanks for me.

 

[JoeFromTomsRiver]

1) It would give the wrestler's a solid time to aim for, helping them plan out the match a lot better.

They already have a solid time to aim for. The only difference is that the time would run out instead of being told to "go home" and do the finish.

2) Time limit draws gives a new result to matches.

Just because its a new result doesn't mean that its good.

3) It could reduce the number of matches ending in DQs.

I didn't know the number of DQ finishes was so out of control that it was detrimental.

4) It would make match lengths more believeable (because at the moment there's still the floating possibility of having the first match last the entire show).

Match "lengths" are not believable now? I honestly don't know what this means.

*If it happened once in a while, fine, but to have it as common as DQ finishes is not something I'd sign up for. The ONLY positive I could come up with, personally, would be if the longer matches resulted in certain comedy segments being taken off the show but this would not happen.

 

[ajdb]

I think time limits would be great. I think they make the talent shoot for a goal.

Back in the day it was basically a badge of honor if you had 60 minute match on your record (Ask Ric Flair, he doesn't mind telling people that)

In Japan, title matches have 60 minute time limits and I think the reason people loved the Okada/Tanahashi matches because those went roughly 60 minutes (counting entrances). It makes you feel like the wrestlers are accountable and they fulfill their obligation to you as a fan.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

The notion of time limits as giving the wrestlers a solid time to aim for is outdated. Thanks to modern technology, such as Bluetooth, the refs are told when it's time to tell the boys or girls to "go home" in the match.

As far as giving the matches a new type of ending, it ultimately depends on what type of match it is, who's involved, if it's on TV or the WWE Network or if a title is on the line. If the circumstances aren't right and it's an especially hot match, a time limit draw can really get people's goats. It seems that so many wrestling fans are ludicrously impatient these days anyway that time limit draws can give them yet another thing to gripe about. WWE goes overboard with protecting some babyfaces anyhow and something tells me that this would be an aspect that they'd use much too often.

DQ finishes and count outs can serve perfectly well as a means of protecting both wrestlers, and it's not as if WWE has a epidemic of DQ and count out finishes. If a heel gets DQ'd, that doesn't bother me as long as it's not something that happens every other match. Heels are supposed to be lowlife cheats after all, so a heel "getting caught" breaking the rules to such a degree that he loses the match. If he gives the babyface a strong match and doesn't look like a complete pussy during the match, I don't see how it hurts him. It bothers some who want every single heel to be the embodiment of badass, some cross between Chuck Norris and Clint Eastwood, but, then again, those fans find something to complain about anyhow.

As far as match lengths being believable, I don't know what that means. If you want the matches to appear more "believable", then you may as well just go the route dividing the match into to 5 minute rounds. In my opinion, fans need to stop trying to make professional wrestling "more real" so much of the time. When you try to apply a broad degree of real world...well....realness to pro wrestling, it usually doesn't work. For the most part, pro wrestling works in the United States because of it's over the top, unrealistic qualifies. Professional wrestling's about men & women portraying fictional personas who engage in fictional feuds that culminate in fictional fights with predetermined outcomes. I just don't see how time limits contribute.

 

[Slash-LN]

Are you talking about like the 20 minute time limit on matches?

If so I don't know why they ever got away from that. It used to be good for feuds where you wanted to keep both workers looking strong but you didn't want a decisive finish. It would help build anticipation for a rematch between them.

It just seems like it kind of fell out of style over time.

I wouldn't mind if they went back to it. It adds another element when you know time is winding down and there's that feel of desperation.

 

[PeterSellersSTL]

it would only be a matter of time...*let's the pun sink in* before WWE Creative abused it.

 

[rbv13]

Time limits worked in a previous era but really have little use as a regular staple in today’s product. In the case of a World Title bout on a televised show they would need to start the main event at the top of the final hour. Not saying every week will feature a title bout but one would think main events would be given thirty minutes. What if the match ends early? Why would fans stay tuned in for replays or filler talent?

I’ve also heard for the years about the “badge of honor” involved with wrestling a sixty minute match. Give me a break. The time limit draw was a cheap booking trick. The National Champ/name comes into a territory and their star pushes him to the limits and no one looks bad. It was also a way to even out egos between the top stars refusing to look like garbage. A majority of those matches where just forty minutes of dry humping anyway.

A match at a big event going 30 or even 45 minutes once in a blue moon works for the western society wrestling fan.

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

Time limits suck. They've always sucked, and they've never been used properly in regular matches.

I remember the "bad old days" when the announcer would say "This match is scheduled for 1 fall with TV time remaining". That last portion was your cue that the match was going to end in a draw. So were the times when the announcer would actually count down the time remaining..."10 minutes left in this match! 10 minutes!"

Guess what? Match is gonna end in a draw.

Sucked.
Sucked.
Sucked.

Unless there is going to be some massive shift in the WWE to try and make the matches appear more "real", there is no reason to do time limits unless the match calls for it, aka an Iron Man Match or a Beat the Clock match.

 

[Headman]

I'm seriously shaking my head at some of the comments. Time limit draws are not a cop out. Was the end of Rocky 1 a cop out? No, the story was Rocky went the distance with the champ. Sting going the distance with Ric Flair made him a star. That was no cop out. Joe vs Punk 1 and 2 were both time limit draws. Nobody called those matches cop outs. Time limit draws tell a story about two guys who refuse to be beaten. But modern fans don't get that. They have this weird idea that winning and losing is more important than the story of the match. The WWE has never been big on time limit draws so I don't really expect to see them start now, but to the fans who throw out blanket statements like "Time limits suck" or "It's a cop out"... I feel sorry for you. You'll never be able to enjoy certain aspects of the business as they were intended. And that's too bad.

 

[Cena Is A Punk Rocker]

Well in order for a time limit to work for a match you would have to have a match that lasts longer than five to eight minutes. It seems as if a lot of the audience these days doesn't have the attention span to last much longer than that.

On a personal note: I always thought time limit draws were bullshit.

 

[NegativeFeedback]

TNA tried this a few years ago and it was stupid. No one liked it, and the whole gimmick was dumped a few months later.

You just accept the fact that matches conveniently fall within the timeframe of the show. It's part of kayfabe and you don't question it.

If this were real fighting, by all means all these 1-on-1 hardcore matches should end in less than 3 minutes. If you want that sort of realism, you look elsewhere.

Tonight, The Mountain will be facing The Red Viper on Game of Thrones, and no one is going to think it's stupid when the match ends before the hour mark.

Fiction is structured and planned out. It's one of the reasons why I like professional wrestling. No one should try to correct it.

 

[Pedigree1]

I guess it could be a good thing depending on whether like JH said,if its on TV,or the WWE network,(wow No more PPVS weird huh?). Anyway yes it would be refreshing but wtih todays new technology,its not necessary. I am not sure if you have noticed or not,but that little ear piece the ref wears,he is told when to end the match and tell the wrestlers its time to wrap it up..

A DQ finish yes its cheap,but IMO favors the faces because well the heels tend to cheat once in a blue moon. Their low-life cheates,who bend the rules and gain any advantage they can to beat their opponents. Imagine if a title was on the line,or the match was white hot,and the time limit expires? Yah i dont think that would go over to well the audiences and us watching at home..

Its realistic the way they have it now. Its professional wrestling a male soap opera. Leave it alone great point OP but its fine the way it is

 

[Headman]

TNA tried this a few years ago and it was stupid. No one liked it, and the whole gimmick was dumped a few months later.

You just accept the fact that matches conveniently fall within the timeframe of the show. It's part of kayfabe and you don't question it.

If this were real fighting, by all means all these 1-on-1 hardcore matches should end in less than 3 minutes. If you want that sort of realism, you look elsewhere.

Tonight, The Mountain will be facing The Red Viper on Game of Thrones, and no one is going to think it's stupid when the match ends before the hour mark.

Fiction is structured and planned out. It's one of the reasons why I like professional wrestling. No one should try to correct it.

I think execution makes a big difference when it comes to time limits. As I recall didn't TNA have judges to pick a winner if the match went to it's time limit? That was just flat out stupid. And I saw a comment from a different person earlier saying they knew a draw was coming once they heard the announcer counting down the minutes of the match. That's not true either. Heck, I just watched a match where the Midnight Express defeated the Rock N Roll express via pinfall just after they announced the "Three minutes remaining" mark. I think it added some urgency to the match. You hear that announcer counting down and it's like watching the last couple minutes of a football game in over time. As I stated before, the WWE hasn't used time limit draws in the 30 years I've been watching (That I can remember) so I really don't expect them to start utilizing now. But if say WCW were to magically re-appear the time limits would be something I'd like to see.

 

[FlairFan2003]

Wow...what a bunch of short sighted people who don't undertstand televised wrestling. First, it is a huge mark out moment when you hear "5 Minutes left" or "two minutes left" because you know the action is about to get seriously intense, the pace of the match will quicken, pinfall attempts and high risk maneuvers are more likely, you don't know how the match will end but you know the end is near and you're glued to your seat.

That was the purpose of the time limits when they were used as part of the match booking. I watched hundreds of matches that had specified time limits that ended well before the time limit expired (Didn't Ric Flair always advertise a 60 minute time limit for his matches and the overwhelming majority went 35-40 minutes ?!?!).

Bottom line, if used occasionally it is a great way to keep the fans geared up and tuned in for the finish. Now I don't want to see every match every week go to the final two minutes of course but guess what ? I don't want to see every match end in a DQ or CO each week, and IU certainly don't want weeks and weeks of clean finishes (BORING - Clean finishes should be used sparingly in Big Time matches, saved for feud ending or changing bouts and some title wins, otherwise they should only be used to enhance top talent with wins over second and third teamers on TV, otherwise they cease to be special and no one cares). I want a variety with some unpredictability, granted, some times knowing the outcome doesn't kill a match (Rock-Cena I & II were both very entertaining despite the widespread belief in who would win each one, there wasn't much legit doubt about HBK's WrestleMainia bouts vs Taker & Flair but they were highly entertaining and kept crowds glued to the match start to finish) but generally speaking I want a variety of finishes, etc or the shows are dull. The Time Limit draws or wearing a match to the close of the time limit is a great way to go, as long as it's not overdone.

 

[FlairFan2003]

I think execution makes a big difference when it comes to time limits. As I recall didn't TNA have judges to pick a winner if the match went to it's time limit? That was just flat out stupid. And I saw a comment from a different person earlier saying they knew a draw was coming once they heard the announcer counting down the minutes of the match. That's not true either. Heck, I just watched a match where the Midnight Express defeated the Rock N Roll express via pinfall just after they announced the "Three minutes remaining" mark. I think it added some urgency to the match. You hear that announcer counting down and it's like watching the last couple minutes of a football game in over time. As I stated before, the WWE hasn't used time limit draws in the 30 years I've been watching (That I can remember) so I really don't expect them to start utilizing now. But if say WCW were to magically re-appear the time limits would be something I'd like to see.

WWE hasn't used time limit draws ad time limits as a plot device ? Didn't HBK-Brett Hart go to a 60 minute draw AT WRESTLEMAINIA ??? In fact, Hart was the person who introduced the concept of Iron Man Matches (most pinfalls in a set time limit) to WWE when he wrestled Flair in a series of 60 minute ones on the house show circuit in late 92-93 (Hart also was instrumental in introducing Ladder Matches, using them on the house show circuit vs HBK years before the famous WrestleMania bout between Michaels & Scott Hall)


When HBK wrestled Flair in Madison Square Garden they used the time limit as a major plot device also (HBK was trapped in the Figure Four and appeared ready to tap out but time expired, Flair wanted to continue the match, but had already released the hold, allowing a now standing HBK to hit The SuperKick for the pin once the bout restarted)


The whole concept of Iron Man Matches depends on the falls being close as the wrestlers near the finish so when the announcer get to "Two Minutes remaining" you are glued to your seat as the action increases and the pace quickens and both wrestlers are in a frenzy either trying to hit one last finisher or hold on for dear life en route to victory. We've seen HHH, Rock, Cena, & HBK engage in these matches since the late 90s. We just haven't seen it much recently.

 

[Bockwinkel's Class]

WWE hasn't used time limit draws ad time limits as a plot device ? Didn't HBK-Brett Hart go to a 60 minute draw AT WRESTLEMAINIA ??? In fact, Hart was the person who introduced the concept of Iron Man Matches (most pinfalls in a set time limit) to WWE when he wrestled Flair in a series of 60 minute ones on the house show circuit in late 92-93 (Hart also was instrumental in introducing Ladder Matches, using them on the house show circuit vs HBK years before the famous WrestleMania bout between Michaels & Scott Hall)


When HBK wrestled Flair in Madison Square Garden they used the time limit as a major plot device also (HBK was trapped in the Figure Four and appeared ready to tap out but time expired, Flair wanted to continue the match, but had already released the hold, allowing a now standing HBK to hit The SuperKick for the pin once the bout restarted)


The whole concept of Iron Man Matches depends on the falls being close as the wrestlers near the finish so when the announcer get to "Two Minutes remaining" you are glued to your seat as the action increases and the pace quickens and both wrestlers are in a frenzy either trying to hit one last finisher or hold on for dear life en route to victory. We've seen HHH, Rock, Cena, & HBK engage in these matches since the late 90s. We just haven't seen it much recently.

It used to be relatively common in the WWF (and all the territories really) in the late 70s and early 80s. Television Title matches always had a 10 minute time limit even in the 90s in WCW.

The thing is, most fans aren't really old enough to remember those days so the concept seems alien. It also hearkens back to a time when wrestling was still being presented as close to being a "real" sport as possible. Kayfabe still ruled the day back then.

 

[peter_midnight]

Time Limits would add a more sports element to the product, which is what they really need at this point. As a fan, time limit draws do suck, but they're supposed to bring you back and as a kid, I always wanted to watch the rematch, so they do work providing you like one of the guys in the match.

Boxing and UFC often go to draws and it seems a little ridiculous to me to have a DQ finish more than a time limit finish to be honest. What people don't understand is that DQs in other sports are a big deal. If you get DQ'd, you usually get fined and/or suspended for the act. In wrestling, you just get another rematch. It's ridiculous to be honest with you. I've said it once, and I'll say it again. The best thing TNA did in the beginning was to allow the champion to lose the title on a DQ finish. It just makes sense when you view it from an actual sporting perspective. Why the hell would any organization allow a champion to keep the title after they blatantly got DQ'd? It's not going to save the business, but I think it's a huge step in the right direction to start ending more matches on DQs.

Perhaps they can even go as far as to say that since so many matches are ending in time limit draws, they may have to start hiring ringside judges to score the bouts and make decisions. Now you have a new way to get people vested in rematches as you can have decisions that are controversial and end up with reasons for a rematch.

 

[Headman]

WWE hasn't used time limit draws ad time limits as a plot device ? Didn't HBK-Brett Hart go to a 60 minute draw AT WRESTLEMAINIA ??? In fact, Hart was the person who introduced the concept of Iron Man Matches (most pinfalls in a set time limit) to WWE when he wrestled Flair in a series of 60 minute ones on the house show circuit in late 92-93 (Hart also was instrumental in introducing Ladder Matches, using them on the house show circuit vs HBK years before the famous WrestleMania bout between Michaels & Scott Hall)


When HBK wrestled Flair in Madison Square Garden they used the time limit as a major plot device also (HBK was trapped in the Figure Four and appeared ready to tap out but time expired, Flair wanted to continue the match, but had already released the hold, allowing a now standing HBK to hit The SuperKick for the pin once the bout restarted)


The whole concept of Iron Man Matches depends on the falls being close as the wrestlers near the finish so when the announcer get to "Two Minutes remaining" you are glued to your seat as the action increases and the pace quickens and both wrestlers are in a frenzy either trying to hit one last finisher or hold on for dear life en route to victory. We've seen HHH, Rock, Cena, & HBK engage in these matches since the late 90s. We just haven't seen it much recently.

I don't think anyone is talking about iron man matches. When it comes to time limits being incorporated into normal matches. "TV time remaining" that sort of thing. The WWE/WWF hasn't used that for as long as I can remember. Flair using an NWA gimmick at a house show (With the WWF's instant gratification twist) doesn't really serve as an example of WWE's handling of time limits. We're talking WWE's programming style not a match two guys wanted to work at the garden.

It used to be relatively common in the WWF (and all the territories really) in the late 70s and early 80s. Television Title matches always had a 10 minute time limit even in the 90s in WCW.

The thing is, most fans aren't really old enough to remember those days so the concept seems alien. It also hearkens back to a time when wrestling was still being presented as close to being a "real" sport as possible. Kayfabe still ruled the day back then.

He was talking about WWE. The WWE has not enforced the time limit gimmick in televised matches in the VKM era. WCW, NWA and basically every other promotion on God's green Earth has made good use of the time limit bit, but it's never been the WWE's thing. I don't think it's really about the fans age, I think it's more about the mentality of modern audiences. They want everything their way all the time. Finishes that don't serve their interests get bashed. Look at tonight's Cena / Wyatt match. The match was great, but because of the finish fans will find a way to bash it.

 

[coolboarder]

I think that mid-card matches need to reintroduce 15-20 minute time limit matches so that the main event will not start at the top of the hour at the end, and when the main event finally come, it felt rushed and wasted segment. I think that they need to start perform the main event, 15-20 minutes before the top of the hour to give a real match feel with a proper ending, whether it be an interference or time ran out without abusing the interferences due to the time limit. When the main event matches start that late, you knew that the bell doesn't ring due to brawling and declare, no-contest or interference causing DQ coming at the ending of the show due to the TV time restraint. When this event occurs, it just turns me off and lose interest in the wrestling quickly.

I'd rather to see a great match when time ran out with no winner to declare and we knew that they will meet again and give a great long match in a ppv, lasting 20-30 minutes each, or even 60 minutes match. The long match is a lost art, even a PPV with a few exceptions. I remember, the days of Ric Flair and Ricky Steamboat matches, you can find them at youtube for a full match and you will see the perfect art of a long and believable match.