Thought Police, and the New Goodspeak

[Dexter]

I'm going to start off this post by stating the obvious. The right to our own opinion, and the right to freely express that opinion without fear of legal reprisal, is the most basic, profound, essential, and important right we possess in this country.

Unfortunately, people just don't seem to see it that way anymore. Shortly after 9/11, President G.W. Bush made a speech. Perhaps he should have put a little more thought into that speech, because one particular statement became a rallying cry for his opposition. "You're either with us, or you're with the terrorists." This, to his detractors, was proof positive that he was dangerous. Aside from the obvious implications of war, it was clear that he had no tolerance whatsoever for dissent of opinion.

I'm neither a Bush hater, nor a Bush supporter. But I do think this was a very stupid thing to say. It was said when emotions still ran high, and for that maybe he deserves some leeway, but the fact remains, it was dumb.

Flash forward 8 years later. We find ourselves under the presidency of the first African-American to hold that post. We've witnessed history. He's passionate, well-spoken, and charismatic. He has some equally passionate supporters, as well... and there-in lies some of the problem we're facing now. As it turns out, the Bush opposition is just as intolerant to opposition as the former president. Let me show you what I mean. Recently in the news...

Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi accuses nationalized health care protesters of "carrying swastikas" (13 second video link)

Congressman Brian Baird calls protesters "extremists" and accuses them of "brown shirt tactics" (link) "Brown Shirt" is a reference to the Sturmabteilung (link), a Nazi paramilitary organization that eventually became the SS.

The Washington Post calls satirical posters of Obama done up in Joker face paint "racial fear's ugly face"... (link)

...despite the fact that Vanity Fair published a very similar picture of Bush in Joker face paint just last year. (link)

I could go on, but I think you get the point. And btw, apologies for the link bombardment. It's entirely up to you if you feel like reading all those links, I simply provide them to back up my statements so you don't think I'm just making all this up.

The point here is clear. Opposition to the current administration and its policies makes you a Nazi and a racist. There's no room for conscientious citizens to question policy.

Either you're with us, or you're with the Nazis.

Thoughts?

Here's an even better example that I somehow missed over the last couple of days.

The White House seeks informants to alert them of any "fishy" information they might receive about health care reform through chain emails or "casual conversation" (link)

...now this is just plain scary.

 

[ShockTheMonkey223]

Hey! Obama is Black! You can't talk about him that way, you racist!

That's the response you're going to get from most people when making comments like that (I wouldn't be surprised to see this thread locked by the end of the week) and it's sad.

The US government is one of the most currupt and intolerant in the world, behind only those who make no bones about their dictatorship-style administration. It doesn't matter who's in office, what party they represent, or what color their skin is. If you make it to President of the United States, you're shady. It's not possible to get that position by "playing by the rules", it just can't happen. How could people have been so oblivious to think this guy was some kind savior. Did the Black Panther security outside polling areas, not tip people off? Come on.

 

[Lancer]

Hey! Obama is Black! You can't talk about him that way, you racist!

That's the response you're going to get from most people when making comments like that (I wouldn't be surprised to see this thread locked by the end of the week) and it's sad.

The US government is one of the most currupt and intolerant in the world, behind only those who make no bones about their dictatorship-style administration. It doesn't matter who's in office, what party they represent, or what color their skin is. If you make it to President of the United States, you're shady. It's not possible to get that position by "playing by the rules", it just can't happen. How could people have been so oblivious to think this guy was some kind savior. Did the Black Panther security outside polling areas, not tip people off? Come on.

Just one question: where the hell do you live at, man?

OF COURSE if you make it to be the leader of a fucking country, you're shady. All of the lobbyists and supporters of one political party didn't meet underground and have hugging parties with the opposition, and everything was cool. There are always shady things going on in any fucking government, not just the US Government.

By the way, I saw some of your posts in the thread speaking of the troops. Do you live in a travel trailer in the New Mexico desert and just sit on the internet all day posting negative things about the governent, all the while hoping no one knocks on your door to "take you away?" Another question for you there.

Just asking.

 

[Evan Snow-Wolf]

This thread can basically be summed up into the really long tired history of the Democrat / Republican double standard where you can cite example after example of incidents where the rules apply one way to a Democrat and another way for the Republican. Its just the way the media is these days. If Bush was three days later for Katrina, it was the end of the world... when Obama does it he's "just a busy man!" and then they start making articles praising how hard Barry is working and how he deserves a vacation after only working for 6 months.

I don't know where you live, but where I live, you aren't eligible to start spending vacation hours till you been working the job for a year. Just sayin'.

 

[ShockTheMonkey223]

OF COURSE if you make it to be the leader of a fucking country, you're shady. All of the lobbyists and supporters of one political party didn't meet underground and have hugging parties with the opposition, and everything was cool. There are always shady things going on in any fucking government, not just the US Government.

Yes, that's exactly what I said. I don't know what you're getting at... Are you agreeing with me or being sarcastic?

By the way, I saw some of your posts in the thread speaking of the troops. Do you live in a travel trailer in the New Mexico desert and just sit on the internet all day posting negative things about the governent, all the while hoping no one knocks on your door to "take you away?" Another question for you there.
Just asking.

No, I live in an Upper-Middleclass subdivision outside Chicago. I come on the Internet once or twice a day, usually not spending more than hour online, unless I'm super bored. Any other questions?

 

[Nitafrong]

This is quite an interesting post- I wasn't aware of most of the articles you posted- and I did like the 1984 analogy- even if it was a bit exaggerated

The whole idea of the press being restricted in this way comes a little strange to us cousins across the pond- or at the very least to this cousin anyway. It could be our current governments, but both Brian Cowen (Republic of Ireland) and Gordon Brown (United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) are roundly attacked by certain members of the press fairly frequently. Peter Robinson and Martin Mc Guinness (First and Deputy First ministers of Northern Ireland) are criticised too but not to the same extent. I think on Friday photos were actually published from the Troubles, which showed Mr Mc Guinness holding a gun (A long running contraversy in the North of Ireland has been whether Mr Mc Guinness participated in any attacks while as a member of the IRA). After the expenses row which occurred in the past few months, belief and trust in politicians is reported by some sections of the media to be at an all time low- I don't know if the people would be too supportive of any attempts to preserve the government’s credibility by silencing the critics.

From what you say of the states it does sound a bit dangerous. The problem with President Obama though, is that unfortunately that race seems like it will always be an issue with his presidency, no matter how hard he tries to avoid it. It sounds though like some of his supporters are making use of this to their own advantage to try and strengthen their position.

On the Bush/Obama picture though, I think you have to take into consideration that, that picture was near the end of Bush's presidency. A presidency in which he was mercilessly ridiculed to I believe an unfair extent in most of the world. By the end of his presidency comics were given the mandate to do what they want. Obama though has only just started and people are not used to attacks being made on him. Are they racist? I don’t think so, sounds like white house trying to vilify the right as you mentioned. In the same sense that any critic of Bush was termed by some as communist or socialist, so too will critics of Obama be racist. Hopefully their voices aren't silenced. Every effective leadership needs opposition.

 

[Ty Burna]

Hey! Obama is Black! You can't talk about him that way, you racist!

That's the response you're going to get from most people when making comments like that (I wouldn't be surprised to see this thread locked by the end of the week) and it's sad.

The US government is one of the most currupt and intolerant in the world, behind only those who make no bones about their dictatorship-style administration. It doesn't matter who's in office, what party they represent, or what color their skin is. If you make it to President of the United States, you're shady. It's not possible to get that position by "playing by the rules", it just can't happen. How could people have been so oblivious to think this guy was some kind savior. Did the Black Panther security outside polling areas, not tip people off? Come on.

Wow, if our country is so fucking horrible, then why don't you get the hell out then? Honestly, according to your other post you're from Chi Town, so I know you from here. Seriously dude, what the hell is your problem with our country? Our country ain't perfect but no country could ever be perfect. If you think it's so bad here, go live in Indonesia or better yet Iran where they'd beat you half to death just for saying you don't support what the government is doing. Shit if you rattled off incessant shit like that in Iran, you'd probably be beheaded. Get a clue man, as US citizens we have the right to speak our mind in a public forum, and not suffer any consequences, I'm proud of the fact that we have the rights we do, and not be held down by a true dictatorship like many other people have to suffer through in this world.

As far as the post goes, this isn't anything new in politics, the party/people in power are always going to take offense to people that don't agree with their opinion and choose to speak out about it. It happened when the Republicans are in power, the same is happening with the Democrats are in power. Now I am an independent as far as what my political status is, as I really don't give a fuck about either party at the moment. As soon as either of them are in power, they suddenly have this moral fucking stance that whatever they are doing is good for the people, when in reality they may be fucking up.

Now at the same time, the politicians have the same right as us to say what they want in a public forum, and that's fine and all, but they are more than likely going to crucify their own political careers by talking about people who disagree with them like that. They seem to think that anyone who doesn't like their policies are with the other party, so if they take a shot at the people dissenting, they can attack the other party, at least in their minds. Until the day comes that our Constitution and freedoms are thrown out the window and politicians have the ability to do harm to these dissenters, nothing will ever come of it. Regardless of all that though, generally normal people like most of us are have the ability to have complex thoughts on different subjects. Most people are not just strictly Democrat/liberal or Republican/conservative, that's just what the idiots on CNN, MSNBC, and Fox News want you to believe. We have grey areas in our political views, and the problem is that these politicians nowadays are feeding into the hype that if you're not agreeing with them, then you must be with the other side.

This is nothing more but a power struggle, and the rhetoric being used is to try and scare people into believing their side. It's nothing different then when Presidential candidates put out smear campaigns and videos out about their opponent. I do give Bush some leeway on his comment, because I think pretty much all US citizens were in a pretty emotional state at the time. And as a human being, you know with faults and all that, I know if I were in his position, I think I may have said something like that myself, just running off of pure adrenaline and emotion. This sort of rhetoric is nothing to worry about, this kind of shit has been going on for years now, back in the 60's and 70's everyone that was against you was a Communist, now they just got tired of the Communist thing and we're back to the Nazi comparisons again. As far as the racial thing goes, oh well, fuck it if Obama does something I don't like, I'll criticize the motherfucker all I want to, and I won't have to bring up a single thing about his skin color. All the White House is doing is trying to use his skin color as a way to give him some cushion for anything he fucks up on. I don't believe that's right, as if we want equality and all that, he needs to be treated just like any other President. If he fucks up, he needs to hear about it, if he does something right, then great and wonderful, let's build on that then.

 

[Dexter]

As far as the post goes, this isn't anything new in politics, the party/people in power are always going to take offense to people that don't agree with their opinion and choose to speak out about it. It happened when the Republicans are in power, the same is happening with the Democrats are in power. Now I am an independent as far as what my political status is, as I really don't give a fuck about either party at the moment. As soon as either of them are in power, they suddenly have this moral fucking stance that whatever they are doing is good for the people, when in reality they may be fucking up.

You're absolutely right, this isn't anything new, but ya know... I'm just fucking tired of it. I'm just... I dunno... ready for a revolution? We need something different. I mean... you only have two choices the vast majority of the time, and for the most part, both choices suck. People take sides, pick one or the other, call each other stupid and ignorant and racist, and when it comes right down to it, they're both saying pretty much the same fucking thing to begin with.

I think what it mostly comes down to is the fact that the two party system isn't working. At all. We just don't have any real options... and the notion that you can take an entire country of... what is it, 250 million people? That you can take that population and split it in half 50/50 and represent half of them with one guy and the other half with another guy and you'll cover the difference of opinion of that many people with two guys... it's just stupid, and it needs to stop.

And that's really what bothers me so deeply about those articles I linked in the OP... the fact that me disagreeing with Obama means I must automatically be a Conservative, so I get lumped in with all the other "nazis" and "racists". It's just offensive. God forbid I have a mind of my own and don't let Keith Olbermann and Wyclef Jean tell me what to think.

So mad rite nao.

And btw, sorry about all the "..."s and interjections. I didn't think this post through entirely before I made it. I just typed it as I thought it. Thus the strange formatting.

 

[Lancer]

Yes, that's exactly what I said. I don't know what you're getting at... Are you agreeing with me or being sarcastic?

Nope, that's not what you said. You need to be clearer with your wording i guess, because it went over my head completely then. You basically singled out the US government, and Obama.

No, I live in an Upper-Middleclass subdivision outside Chicago. I come on the Internet once or twice a day, usually not spending more than hour online, unless I'm super bored. Any other questions?

Well, here you go....looks like you're living pretty well, then. Usually it's the people who reap the greatest benefits and live in pretty good comfort, who are the loudest fucking mouths when it comes to the government. What is it you have against the government? Perhaps you're mad because Obama is takin' all yer dang money away? Geez, like Ty said, if you don't like it, get the fuck out then.

As far as the post goes, all of the "racist" and "Nazi" rhetoric is absolutely nothing new. It does nothing to help the Democrats' cause or the Republicans' cause whatsoever. It just makes both sides of the issue look stupid and desperate, while we, the voter, have to sit back and sort things out...basically, who looks less stupid?

What's so unique about current issues, like the economy and health care is that we, the American public, are at a point in our history where we are just fed up. Fed up with the war in Iraq, fed up with the economy, fed up with expensive healthcare, fuel, etc. And the government knows that and fears that, I think. So, I wouldn't put it past them to try and monitor the populace and root out the seeds of revolution. It's not far-fetched at all.

 

[ShockTheMonkey223]

Wow, if our country is so fucking horrible, then why don't you get the hell out then?

Because I don't have the funds to do so. And aside from that, this is the language I'm fluent in. Moving to a better but non-English speaking country would be difficult. Also, all my family and friends are here. I was born and raised in this country, it wasn't my choice but it is what it is. And I love how when anyone says anything bad about the US, the response from the flag wavers is always "well get the hell out then". But these are the same people that tell you we're in Iraq because "we're trying to help them". Why don't they just "get the hell out" if they don't like their government? Why didn't the Jews in Germany just "get the hell out" when the Nazi's were in power? Why didn't Blacks just "get the hell out" during slavery? Because it's not that easy. I'm currently unemployed because of my country's horrid economy, there is no possible way I could just move to another country tomorrow.

Seriously dude, what the hell is your problem with our country? Our country ain't perfect but no country could ever be perfect. If you think it's so bad here, go live in Indonesia or better yet Iran where they'd beat you half to death just for saying you don't support what the government is doing. Shit if you rattled off incessant shit like that in Iran, you'd probably be beheaded.

I also love how anytime someone says something negative about the US, the response from the flag wavers is always "well then go live in Iran". Nobody's saying America is the worst country in the world but that doesn't make it the best. And flag wavers only comparing it to the absolute worst proves that. Nobody ever says "well then go move to Canada" or "then go move to England", it's always Iran or China or Afghanistan.

Get a clue man, as US citizens we have the right to speak our mind in a public forum, and not suffer any consequences, I'm proud of the fact that we have the rights we do, and not be held down by a true dictatorship like many other people have to suffer through in this world.

Apparently we only have the right to speak our minds if it's pro-America, if not then we're told to "get the fuck out".

Nope, that's not what you said. You need to be clearer with your wording i guess, because it went over my head completely then.

I don't think "my wording" was the reason it went over your head lol.

 

[Dexter]

Ya know, this whole sad exchange is *exactly* the kind of thing I was bitching about to begin with. You guys disagree. That's fan-freakin-tastic! We ought to thrive on that kind of thing instead of getting all pissed off and personal about it. You can either use that kind of opposition to strengthen your own stance, or even allow yourself to be persuaded every now and then. Either way, you're a better person for it.

And yeah, I realize how dumb it is to complain about this... it's just "how it is". I can't just accept that and be cool with it though. It shouldn't have to be that way, and it sucks. That's pretty much all I'm saying. If your stance is so indefensible that your only recourse is to take personal shots then maybe you're wrong to begin with. *shrug*

 

[ShockTheMonkey223]

Ya know, this whole sad exchange is *exactly* the kind of thing I was bitching about to begin with. You guys disagree. That's fan-freakin-tastic! We ought to thrive on that kind of thing instead of getting all pissed off and personal about it. You can either use that kind of opposition to strengthen your own stance, or even allow yourself to be persuaded every now and then. Either way, you're a better person for it.

And yeah, I realize how dumb it is to complain about this... it's just "how it is". I can't just accept that and be cool with it though. It shouldn't have to be that way, and it sucks. That's pretty much all I'm saying. If your stance is so indefensible that your only recourse is to take personal shots then maybe you're wrong to begin with. *shrug*

I completely agree. I would love to be able to debate a topic here without being personally attacked and getting "infractions". But sadly, I don't ever see that happening and that solidifies my remarks about this(for our US members) country. People can spout all the "freedom" propaganda they want but it's bullshit. The US motto is "with us or against us" and that's fine, many countries use that aphorism, but hiding it under a facade of "freedom" is repulsive.

 

[Dexter]

Here's another good example of what I'm talking about...

Op Ed piece by "usual suspect" Nancy Pelosi calling Health Care Reform opponents "un-american". (link)

On the contrary, there's nothing more defining of "american" than these kind of protests. She even has the giant, swinging balls in that piece to say "We believe it is healthy for such a historic effort to be subject to so much scrutiny and debate." Seriously? These people have been terrified of scrutiny and debate since the issue was brought up, and now we're being fed this? That's just... wow.

 

[Ty Burna]

Because I don't have the funds to do so. And aside from that, this is the language I'm fluent in. Moving to a better but non-English speaking country would be difficult. Also, all my family and friends are here. I was born and raised in this country, it wasn't my choice but it is what it is. And I love how when anyone says anything bad about the US, the response from the flag wavers is always "well get the hell out then". But these are the same people that tell you we're in Iraq because "we're trying to help them". Why don't they just "get the hell out" if they don't like their government? Why didn't the Jews in Germany just "get the hell out" when the Nazi's were in power? Why didn't Blacks just "get the hell out" during slavery? Because it's not that easy. I'm currently unemployed because of my country's horrid economy, there is no possible way I could just move to another country tomorrow.

So you're going to compare you're problem of not having a job to the Jews being rounded up at gunpoint by the Germans, and the slaves being checked at gunpoint as well as the reason you can't leave? Please, sorry but that sympathetic "I have to compare my problems to the persecuted" doesn't work and is pretty pathetic that you compare a job issue to persecution and slavery. Rather than sit here and whine and complain about why our country is so bad, or our government is intolerant or that we're nothing more than a bunch of bullies, maybe you should start putting effort into improving your life, and if you live in an Upper Middle Class subdivision with no job, especially around Chitown, then obviously someone is helping take care of your needs.

I grew up in a god damn trailer court, where my family went through two bankruptcies and constant money problems and all this shit. I don't know how old you are man, but I'm only 21, have a kid, and I have a house now. I don't have time to sit here and worry about what the government is fucking up on to be honest with you, my priorities lie in far more important venues. Listen man, worry about your life and what you can do to improve it, don't worry about corrupt governments, shady politicians, or intolerant countries, because honestly, at the end of the day, they aren't the ones that are going to decide how you want to live your life, and they aren't going to hold your hand while you decide what to do. You gotta do it on your own, because in this world, everyone is a predator, it doesn't matter where you're at, these motherfuckers will use and abuse you just to gain a small fraction of an edge.

I also love how anytime someone says something negative about the US, the response from the flag wavers is always "well then go live in Iran". Nobody's saying America is the worst country in the world but that doesn't make it the best. And flag wavers only comparing it to the absolute worst proves that. Nobody ever says "well then go move to Canada" or "then go move to England", it's always Iran or China or Afghanistan.

Ah but you yourself have said that the US is in the top echelon of worst countries, just behind full blown dictatorships. I won't lie it may not be the best country in the world, honestly how could you even measure something like that? England's got its issues, France has issues, Japan has issues, Australia has issues, Canada has issues, Iraq has issues, and the list goes on. Every single country has its own issues, but because the US has constantly tried to better things, and I digress some people don't want our help, we are looked upon as bullies. But in reality, governments are like humans, they can only do their best and hope their best is good enough. You have to admit at the very least, we put effort into the work the US does here, we're rebuilding Iraq, we're trying to give them a better life even if it means some of our soldiers end up sacrificing theirs for a common good goal. If you think moving to a country like Canada or England will change things, well you'll probably end up having the same issues you have right now with the US. Because of that I feel sorry for you, I know the economy is rough right now, but if you think it's that bad, you should hear stories from my elders about The Great Depression, this recession doesn't have shit on the one that they had to go through, and they simply did what they had to do to get by and survive the harsh circumstances they were in.

That brings me to another point, a lot of people in our generation, and even worse the one before ours will have, a lot of these people want everything handed to them on a silver platter, like they deserve everything without doing any of the work for the reward. Now this may be harsh to say, but fuck it I'm a blunt person and I say it like it is, we are spoiled as a generation, and obviously this ain't all of us and mitigating circumstances aside, most of us here that are out of school work for a living in order to provide for yourself, and family if you are lucky, but many are just lazy and want everything given to them.

Apparently we only have the right to speak our minds if it's pro-America, if not then we're told to "get the fuck out".

I don't have a problem with you speaking your mind, that wasn't the point of what I said. By all means say what the hell you want to say, I'm doing it right now, you know one of those things we have the right to do, but what I meant was, if you don't like it here, than if at all possible, leave and try to get to a place that makes you happy. You have to understand though, that I love this country dearly, and what you said angered me, now that I am a bit calmer, I will just say that you have the right to speak your anti American rhetoric all you want, just be known I have every right to tell you to shut the fuck up if I want.

 

[ShockTheMonkey223]

So you're going to compare you're problem of not having a job to the Jews being rounded up at gunpoint by the Germans, and the slaves being checked at gunpoint as well as the reason you can't leave?

No, my point is that people don't always have the option to just up and leave their homeland. I gave you my reasons and if you don't think they're valid, by all means, explain why.

Ah but you yourself have said that the US is in the top echelon of worst countries, just behind full blown dictatorships.

And I stand by that. The ones we are just behind are the ones we're always compared to.

 

[FromTheSouth]

I completely agree. I would love to be able to debate a topic here without being personally attacked and getting "infractions".

Then stop breaking the rules. And, for the record, whining about it in here is also against the rules.

But sadly, I don't ever see that happening and that solidifies my remarks about this(for our US members) country.

No it doesn't. Your remarks about this country are straight off of any liberal blog. You only say them to seem subversive and cool. If you really hated this country as much as the lies you tell, then you would get the fuck out. Kind of like if you hated the forums as much as you talk about that, you would leave too. The real answer is that you are an attention ****e and just keep talking shit to get noticed. Your posts have no substance, they are just rants, and poorly written ones at that.

People can spout all the "freedom" propaganda they want but it's bullshit.

OK dumbass, let me explain something to you. You have the freedom to talk all the shit you want about this country. That does not mean you will be free from reprisals. Your freedom is given by the government. That is the same government that gives me the right to tell you to go fuck yourself or leave the country or buy rubber buggy baby bumpers. Freedom goes both ways, and true believers in freedom know that. Lefties think freedom of speech only extends to their side.

Look at Barbara Boxer. She says that the protesters of health coverage are dressed too nicely to mean it. Obama calls it manufactured anger, and Pelosi says that anyone who doesn't agree with her is a Nazi. It's lefty separatists who try and control the media. They are the thought police. You fit right in, and any time someone argues against your anti-American rants, you act as if some freedom has been taken from you. If you don't want red rep and personal attacks, stop being a shitty poster. Stop whining and complaining, or just fucking leave....the forums and the country.

The US motto is "with us or against us" and that's fine, many countries use that aphorism, but hiding it under a facade of "freedom" is repulsive.

I'm sorry, but a the only facade of freedom I see is you. All you want to do is rail against the system that gives you freedom. It is your right to do so. But it is my right to defend that system, yet you act as if a crime has been perpetrated against you. Your hypocrisy amuses me. You, personally, have actually put me in favor of retroactive abortion.

 

[ShockTheMonkey223]

Then stop breaking the rules. And, for the record, whining about it in here is also against the rules.

Yes, yes there's many rules (like "flamming a user" ), but they only seem to come into play when a moderator doesn't like what you have to say. That's when your signature isn't up to code or your remarks are "prejudicial". I just think that's kinda lame.

If you really hated this country as much as the lies you tell, then you would get the fuck out. Kind of like if you hated the forums as much as you talk about that, you would leave too.

*sigh* We're really back to the "love it or leave it" already? Is that really the only response flag wavers have for anything? It's not possible for me to leave the country, I've been over that (remember, I was being prejudicial?). And there's no law that says you have to love everything about your country and quite frankly, if you do, I'd consider you brainwashed...or unintelligent. Luckily for the US, most of it's residents fall into both of those categorys.

And when did I say I hate the forums? I think some people here have a tendency to throw hissy fits and some of those people have "power", but you'll get that on any Internet message board.

Freedom goes both ways, and true believers in freedom know that.

Yes, freedom does go both ways...it just can't marry one of those ways.


U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A

*exits to "Sweet Home Alabama"*

 

[FromTheSouth]

Yes, yes there's many rules (like "flamming a user" ),

I think you meant flaming. But I didn't say anything prejudicial, which you do, or break any rules. I can call you a waste of space or a fucking idiot all day long.

but they only seem to come into play when a moderator doesn't like what you have to say.

Usually, when moderaters don't like what you say it's because you break the rules. But I get it, rules don't apply to you, because they are aviolation of your freedom.

That's when your signature isn't up to code or your remarks are "prejudicial". I just think that's kinda lame.

I think you're lame. But to move on beyond that, you report posts and then break the same rule you think they violated. You are a hypocrite, and can join your flag burning hippie friends on the outside of productive society looking in. Have fun with government cheese.

*sigh* We're really back to the "love it or leave it" already?

No, I actually just said leave. I don't want someone like you staying for any reason.

Is that really the only response flag wavers have for anything?

And is whining the only response flag burners have? Give me a fucking break. One of these days you're gonna look back at your life and remember being a giant douchebag. I hope that day is tomorrow.

It's not possible for me to leave the country, I've been over that (remember, I was being prejudicial?). And there's no law that says you have to love everything about your country

And there's no law that says I have to tolerant of your anti-American views, your bad posts, or your all around stupid manner. Like I said, the law cuts both ways, and the way you chose is the ignorant path that leads...well, being Nancy Pelosi. you have fun Nancy.

and quite frankly, if you do, I'd consider you brainwashed...or unintelligent. Luckily for the US, most of it's residents fall into both of those categorys.

I think you meant categories. But I'm the unintelligent one? I consider you brainwashed by Alex Jones and The Huffington Post. I mean it's cool, people take them seriously too.

And when did I say I hate the forums? I think some people here have a tendency to throw hissy fits and some of those people have "power", but you'll get that on any Internet message board.

Who's throwing a hissy? This whole post you typed up is nothing but some whining about the rules and the staff. God, you are such a hypocrite. It's funny to me.

Yes, freedom does go both ways...it just can't marry one of those ways.

Is this some fortune cookie wisdom? LOL.....Let me explain some things to you, since you think this is so unfair to you. This post is completely off topic. That is against the rules. Your little closing salvo, which is stupid, and I'll get to in a minute, is nothing but you trying to be a dick to a staff member, which is against the rules. I didn't do anything about it. No one is singling you out for anything other than your inability to contribute to discussion in the forums. You get the red rep because people disapprove of you. You get the infractions because you break rules. How is that unfair.

You do however fit right into the topic you ignore when you post. You give nothing but Orwelian double speak. The first post is basically about how politicians on the flag burning side (your people) ignore the debate at hand, and turn it all into an argument about process and function instead of ideas. You are Barbara Boxer. Instead of focusing on the problem and finding a solution, you choose to blame someone else and let someone else fix the problem.

U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A

*exits to "Sweet Home Alabama"*

See, this here is an example of how worthless you are. You think you are making a point. You insult the south. You are doing so just to piss off a staff member. How is anything unfair to you? You blatantly break rules, report other's posts for what you are doing, and don't contribute? Do you wonder why no one likes you? It isn't about singling you out, there are threads all over the place about idiots like you. You should feel honored that I took the time to explain why you're worthless instead of just making fun of you. Go back to myspace, maybe one of you're flag burning hippie friends will care.

 

[Nitafrong]

The interesting point I draw from all of the above (and I always try and draw important things from fights- helps distract me while I fail to get involved in them) is to what extent are you allowed to criticise your country, which I think was the point originally made by Dexter. In countries which have the rights of free speech should we not be allowed to criticise the state at all. Should this though be a form of constructive criticism? "Yes the economy is really bad at the moment and the government have made mistakes but if they......" and proactively get involved in politics to attempt to change something. Or should people be allowed to say whatever they want about the country they live in under the belief that things shouldn't be attempted to be hidden and that only through facing up to all problems can a country truly move forward.

Its all quite a complicated point that’s tied to nationality. I saw above various users saying if you don't like it in America you should leave. Is that the only option though, can't you not dislike what your government is doing and still want to stay? Should you be forced to support your government for national unity? This kind of thing is often enacted in times of crises- your rights are temporarily suspended for the benefit of the country as a whole. Because also in fairness you are a member of a country and all governments operate by the principle of benefiting the majority. Should a state really be held to ransom by the minority?

Sorry if this is all a little vague and meandering (and sorry Dexter for more questions and no answers- I see merit in both sides unfortunately - maybe someday I will be tied down to one view..... )

 

[Dexter]

Sorry if this is all a little vague and meandering (and sorry Dexter for more questions and no answers- I see merit in both sides unfortunately - maybe someday I will be tied down to one view..... )

No, you're right, there is merit to both sides. But in this case, I think there's a happy medium, and you touched on it.

Complacency is one extreme, and of course freedom of speech includes saying absolutely nothing whatsoever, so that's perfectly valid, but it doesn't benefit anyone. If we're all complacent, then nothing gets done.

Blind, undirected hatred of one's country is the other extreme, and again, freedom of speech makes this a completely valid option as well, but this doesn't benefit anyone either.

So the happy medium is to not be afraid to speak out against any particular issue, but do it out of love and a desire to see things improve, and always keep in mind that, despite the fact that there's some things we don't like, overall we've got it pretty good. When someone comes on here and starts spewing venom about how much America sucks (or Ireland, or any other developed nation where we've got thing pretty good overall), that's when you start getting the "love it or leave it" responses, and they're not entirely without merit. Why WOULD you want to stay in a place that you hate so much? You're clearly not interested in being a contributing member of society, and it's not unreasonable that the rest of us that want to be wouldn't really need you around bitching all the time.

I mean, this kind of blind, flag burning hatred is just about as useful as those monumental douchebags after 9/11 that started spewing forth all that "we brought it upon ourselves" bullshit. It's stupid, offensive, and as FTS pointed out, it's nothing more than an attention grab.

 

[ShockTheMonkey223]

I think you meant flaming. But I didn't say anything prejudicial, which you do, or break any rules. I can call you a waste of space or a fucking idiot all day long.

Well, in the rules it says "flaming" is "an extreme insult towards another member". But of course what constitutes "extreme" is decided by the mods.

Usually, when moderaters don't like what you say it's because you break the rules. But I get it, rules don't apply to you, because they are aviolation of your freedom.

I think you meant to put a space between "a" and "violation". And rules apply to everyone (keyword).

And is whining the only response flag burners have? Give me a fucking break. One of these days you're gonna look back at your life and remember being a giant douchebag. I hope that day is tomorrow.

If "whining" means making valid points about the government, then yes. And I think you meant to make "douchebag" two words.

And there's no law that says I have to tolerant of your anti-American views, your bad posts, or your all around stupid manner. Like I said, the law cuts both ways, and the way you chose is the ignorant path that leads...well, being Nancy Pelosi. you have fun Nancy.

I think you meant "leads to being Nancy Pelosi. And I think you meant to capitalize "you". And put a comma after "fun".

Who's throwing a hissy? This whole post you typed up is nothing but some whining about the rules and the staff.

So, do you actually read posts for before responding? I'm just just curious.

Is this some fortune cookie wisdom? LOL.....Let me explain some things to you, since you think this is so unfair to you. This post is completely off topic. That is against the rules. Your little closing salvo, which is stupid, and I'll get to in a minute, is nothing but you trying to be a dick to a staff member, which is against the rules. I didn't do anything about it. No one is singling you out for anything other than your inability to contribute to discussion in the forums. You get the red rep because people disapprove of you. You get the infractions because you break rules. How is that unfair.

Actually, it was on-topic. See, that's where it helps to read things instead of just searching for typos. Although, that certainly does make you look ever so intelligent and backs up your statements quite well.

Go back to myspace, maybe one of you're flag burning hippie friends will care.

I think you meant "your".

Get back to me when you actually have some valid points to make.