Third Round - Tokyo: Ladder Match - Harley Race vs. Eddie Guerrero

[It's...Baylariat!]

So... because people have never seen Harley Race climb a ladder, it's assumed that he CAN'T climb one. Look, Harley Race is a legend in the sport. There's not a match he couldn't wrestle in. Even if he'd never wrestled in it before, he'd adapt to it and find a way to win the match. Eddie Guererro isn't good enough to beat Race. His DAD wasn't good enough to beat him. His uncle wasn't either. What makes you think the inferior nephew/son could beat him?

"But it's a LADDER"

OK. I see that. Ladders are quite ominous... except Harley Race can climb a ladder. Now, of course I don't have proof of that. Because he's never been in a ladder match. But that doesn't mean he'd be completely handicapped in this match and not know what to do. Race was the most ring smart wrestler in his time... and figuring out how to win a ladder match would be nothing to him.

But Eddie died though. So there's that.

 

[ScreaminNormanSmiley]

Its great where we live in a country where we can vote for any reason we want.

not with voters like you around

Oh, what were matches like in his hay-day, just 20 minute head locks? That's real compelling compared to a ladder match. Ok, I really do have an appreciation for the golden age of wrestling, we wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for that generation. But I just like the newer stuff better.

now your just generalizing, you assume he would do nothing but 20 minute headlocks, harley race had one of the greatest performers ever. he was a maineventer his whole career and beating better caliber wrestlers than eddie did in his very short main event run. harley always found ways to win as he would do here, as climbing a ladder isnt that hard. and im not sure you appreciate the golden age if you just bunch one of the best with the rest of them and think he couldnt beat a nearly career midcarder.

What is it your "not saying", seems pretty obvious your hinting at something here.
Look, I'm just seeing this match as classic wrestling vs newer wrestling in a ladder match. I have actually seen the older stuff, though I probably haven't conveyed it to you , but I have and I've also seen some of the new stuff. For this specific situation I see Harley as a symbol of the classic wrestling, its nothing personal against him but now I got Eddie representing the newer age of wrestling and I just see the newer age winning in a ladder match.

i do think your wrong and thats pretty obvious but i was saying you wouldnt even know if you were right without checking out the opposition. and you may have seen some old stuff but you said yourself you havent seen race. i cant stress it enough that every wrestler is different and just because they wrestled at the same time. its like if ive seen vladimir kozlov in a match so i thought of everyone in this timeperiod as having the same skill level. its just stupid. and thats what your giving me the impression of you doing.

 

[Megatron]

I assume this was directed towards my post, so...

So... because people have never seen Harley Race climb a ladder, it's assumed that he CAN'T climb one.

I never said that in my post, buddy. You might wanna re-read that again.

Look, Harley Race is a legend in the sport. There's not a match he couldn't wrestle in. Even if he'd never wrestled in it before, he'd adapt to it and find a way to win the match.

While I agree Race helped pave the way for many guys, you're making it sound like it's easy to adapt to matches guys have never participated in before. There's a reason why Edge has won many more Ladder/TLC matches then he's lost. He knows what needs to be done to win a ladder match, just like Eddie.

Eddie Guererro isn't good enough to beat Race. His DAD wasn't good enough to beat him. His uncle wasn't either. What makes you think the inferior nephew/son could beat him?

Eddie is one of the most successful wrestler's of all time. He's won the most prestigious prize in the biggest wrestling company in the world. He's in the company Hall of Fame. It's not like he's just a little cruiserweight who was handed a gift with the title.

OK. I see that. Ladders are quite ominous... except Harley Race can climb a ladder. Now, of course I don't have proof of that. Because he's never been in a ladder match. But that doesn't mean he'd be completely handicapped in this match and not know what to do. Race was the most ring smart wrestler in his time... and figuring out how to win a ladder match would be nothing to him.

Again, you're trying to put words in my mouth. I never wanted to get this argument to be about 'who can climb a ladder', but like I said, Eddie knows what it takes to WIN a Ladder Match. It's not simply climbing a ladder. You have to know how long you'll have to keep a man down before you can start climbing up. You have to know how to use the weapons to your advantage, and Eddie would know, because of his experience.

But Eddie died though. So there's that.

Don't start that bullshit. Eddie was one of the greatest Mexican wrestlers ever. You're acting as if he's just a Koko B. Ware or a Brooklyn Brawler compared to Race, which is quite wrong. Give him credit where it's due.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

John Cena, who had never been in a ladder or table match to my knowledge, faced Edge who had a massive experience advantage in a TLC match. Guess who won that one. I'll give you a hint. It wasn't the guy who has been in the most of them. Experience means nothing in this situation.

 

[thepalaceprince]

Perfect poster you said eddie wasnt just some cruiserweight who got the title as a gift. Actually thats exactly what him and rey mysterio are. Neither of them shouldve become world champion. And eddie shouldnt be alive in this tournament. If your going by accomplishments then cm punk shouldve made it further then eddie. Eddie was a great performer but harley race is better and he would destroy eddie.

 

[Megatron]

Perfect poster you said eddie wasnt just some cruiserweight who got the title as a gift. Actually thats exactly what him and rey mysterio are. Neither of them shouldve become world champion. And eddie shouldnt be alive in this tournament. If your going by accomplishments then cm punk shouldve made it further then eddie. Eddie was a great performer but harley race is better and he would destroy eddie.

Eddie did deserve it. He was way over with the crowd and was on the cusp of the main event. It helped that Lesnar was on his way out, yes, but it's not as if he didn't have any talent and was only given it like how Khali was in 2007. If they didn't feel that he deserved it they wouldn't have given him a run from mid-February to almost July. They could've just went with Angle or Show or someone else, but they went with Eddie because he deserved it. Oh yeah:

CM Punk Accomplishments:
ECW Championship (1 time)
World Heavyweight Championship (3 times)
World Tag Team Championship (1 time)[149] – with Kofi Kingston
WWE Intercontinental Championship (1 time)
Mr. Money in the Bank (2008, 2009)
19th Triple Crown Winner

Eddie Guerrero's Accomplishments:
WWE Championship (1 time)
WWE Tag Team Championship (4 times) – with Chavo Guerrero (2), Tajiri (1), and Rey Mysterio (1)
WWE United States Championship (1 time)
WWF European Championship (2 times)
WWF Intercontinental Championship (2 times)
WWE Hall of Fame (Class of 2006)
Eleventh Triple Crown Champion
Sixth Grand Slam Championship
WCW United States Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
WCW Cruiserweight Championship (2 times)

Avg. length of Punk's 3 World Heavyweight Championship Reigns: 53.3 days (160 days total)
Avg. length of Guerrero's 1 WWE Championship Reign: 133 days

Add that to the fact that Guerrero has been a Grand Slam Champion, and in the HOF, Punks credentials, as of now, aren't even close.

And like I said, with Edge, he's won more ladder matches then he lost. iirc he only lost to Cena and Hardy in Ladder matches, and the 3rd TLC match. He's won more then he's lost, but that's beside the point.

Either way, this is about Guerrero, not Punk and Edge. Guerrero is up by a few with only 3 hours to go, which is what it should be. His death doesn't change the fact that from 2002-2005 he was one of the best wrestlers to lace them up in any company. You guys really are selling him short.

 

[48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You]

Ladder matches are BS in this tournament for exactly this reason. People see something that involves climbing and instantly come to the conclusion the smaller and faster guy wins the match. Chris Benoit over Hogan and Eddie over Race are two prime examples. That is the most broken logic I've ever seen in my life. The match will involve, you know, fighting... And when Harley Race breaks Eddie's legs, his speed advantage is gone.

Let me give you another example. Murfish could probably climb a ladder faster than IC25, but IC25 would break him in half.

 

[Megatron]

Ladder matches are BS in this tournament for exactly this reason. People see something that involves climbing and instantly come to the conclusion the smaller and faster guy wins the match. Chris Benoit over Hogan and Eddie over Race are two prime examples. That is the most broken logic I've ever seen in my life. The match will involve, you know, fighting... And when Harley Race breaks Eddie's legs, his speed advantage is gone.

Let me give you another example. Murfish could probably climb a ladder faster than IC25, but IC25 would break him in half.

If that's the case, they why do we have any gimmick matches in this tournament? Why not just hand Hogan or Flair the title and call it good? You can't tell me that a ladder match wouldn't give some sort of advantage to Guerrero, no? Idrc that Race hasn't ever competed in one, it's the fact that the nature of the match would be that, more often then not, the man with more experience will win the match. Yes there are exceptions, such as Taker over Hardy and Cena over Edge, but for 75% of the time, the man with more experience will win the match, and that's gotta count for something. I'm sure Race wouldn't be in the most comfortable environment, while Eddie would have no problem flying around the ring and using the ladder to his advantage.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

I'm sure Race wouldn't have a problem taking a ladder and beating Guerrero over the head with it. It's not that hard.

Let's look at past ladder matches.

WM 26 MITB: Swagger had never been in a ladder match and yet he won over more experienced. Same for CM Punk at WM 24 and WM 25.

I've already talked about how Cena beat Edge in a TLC match and don't forget Kane in 2002 winning a TLC tag team match by himself over more experienced competitors.

Mysterio had less experience than Guerrero yet beat him in Summerslam when something more important was on the line.

Undertaker beat Jeff Hardy is another example.

Where are your examples Perfect Poster?

 

[Megatron]

I'm sure Race wouldn't have a problem taking a ladder and beating Guerrero over the head with it. It's not that hard.

Let's look at past ladder matches.

WM 26 MITB: Swagger had never been in a ladder match and yet he won over more experienced. Same for CM Punk at WM 24 and WM 25.

I've already talked about how Cena beat Edge in a TLC match and don't forget Kane in 2002 winning a TLC tag team match by himself over more experienced competitors.

Mysterio had less experience than Guerrero yet beat him in Summerslam when something more important was on the line.

Undertaker beat Jeff Hardy is another example.

Where are your examples Perfect Poster?

OK, you want examples? (according to wikipedia)

-Shawn Michaels over Goldust
-The Rock over Mankind
-Edge & Christian over Hardyz and Dudleys in the Triangle Ladder, and TLC's I and II
-Edge over Flair in TLC
-Edge over Taker in TLC
-D-X over Jerishow in TLC (Show has had 1 match)
-Bret Hart over Shawn Michaels (Hart had participated in a ladder match before that)
-Eddie Guerrero & Tajiri over Shelton Benjamin and Charlie Haas
-Edge over Matt Hardy
-RVD over Show
-Hardy's over WGTT
-Jericho over Michaels
-Jeff Hardy over Carlito
-Jeff Hardy over Edge
-Christian over Shelton Benjamin
-Edge in MITB I
-RVD in MITB II
-Arguably Punk in MITB V

And if you wanna go out of the WWE
-Sandman over Steve Corino and Justin Credible in ECW
-Christian over Abyss in TNA
-Jerry Lynn over Senshi, Jay Lethal, Sonjay Dutt, and Austin Starr in TNA
-AJ Styles over Kurt Angle in TNA
-Kaz over Daniels, Amazing Red, and Brian Kendrick

Add in some house show matches that I didn't include, and you will see that more often then not the man with more experience wins.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

But Eddie died though. So there's that.

Seriously? Still this?

I sometimes forget that Eddie is even dead. That was like...er...5 years ago? Any sympathy votes that Eddie gets are gone. That would be like voting for Andre because he died.

If this was the logic we were using, then Kanyon and Umaga would be in the finals.

 

[X]

Pretty sure I haven't seen a reason for voting for Guererro here. I know Eddie touched a lot of hearts and entertained us greatly, but there's no way he beats Harley Race in any kind of match.

How do you figure? Guerrero has beaten legends from all over the globe, why exactly wouldn't he be able to defeat Harley Race? Christ is it just me or has Harley Race become the single most overrated wrestler on this forum seemingly overnight? The guy is a legend, yeah, but some of the shit I'm reading in support of him is ridiculous and it's especially humorous seeing some of the same people who voted against Bruno Sammartino citing Harley's track record of going undefeated for an extended period of time as a reason why he'd win here.

I voted for Eddie. Why? I believe he's a far better professional wrestler than Harley Race ever was, he was just never given the same breaks that Race was. Better in the ring, better on the stick, more entertaining, the only thing I can think of that Race has over Guerrero is a larger track record of world title reigns, but if Eddie hadn't died so young you can be rest assured he'd be a multiple time world champion, possibly even more title reigns than Race had.

Man, I like Harley Race as much as the next dude, but alot of you are VASTLY overrating the man. Like, to an absurd degree. Get off the man's dick.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

How do you figure? Guerrero has beaten legends from all over the globe, why exactly wouldn't he be able to defeat Harley Race? Christ is it just me or has Harley Race become the single most overrated wrestler on this forum seemingly overnight? The guy is a legend, yeah, but some of the shit I'm reading in support of him is ridiculous and it's especially humorous seeing some of the same people who voted against Bruno Sammartino citing Harley's track record of going undefeated for an extended period of time as a reason why he'd win here.

I voted for Eddie. Why? I believe he's a far better professional wrestler than Harley Race ever was, he was just never given the same breaks that Race was. Better in the ring, better on the stick, more entertaining, the only thing I can think of that Race has over Guerrero is a larger track record of world title reigns, but if Eddie hadn't died so young you can be rest assured he'd be a multiple time world champion, possibly even more title reigns than Race had.

Man, I like Harley Race as much as the next dude, but alot of you are VASTLY overrating the man. Like, to an absurd degree. Get off the man's dick.

C'mon, X. You know damn good and well that Harley Race has a track record of being one of the greater wrestlers in history. He's great because he wins. And he won often. And the thing about comparing Race to Bruno is that Race was legit tough. He'd knock you the fuck out if he had to pin you. Big difference in him and Bruno.

That's why I feel Race is vastly UNDERRATED by most of us. Just because he wrestled during a different time doesn't make him inferior to Eddie Guerrero, who isn't even considered one of the greatest wrestlers from MEXICO, much less the world. And Race regularly went to Mexico, defended his NWA title against Gory Guerrero, and Chavo Classic and came out on top.

But I'm not too wounded over this. I really wanted to see Race and Flair in a Hell in a Cell though. And you did, too. Hopefully. Oh well.

Either way, your shenanigans doesn't work on Mr. Lariato, X.

 

[X]

C'mon, X. You know damn good and well that Harley Race has a track record of being one of the greater wrestlers in history. He's great because he wins. And he won often.

Never said he wasn't great. Everything you've just said could describe Eddie Guerrero though as well.

And the thing about comparing Race to Bruno is that Race was legit tough. He'd knock you the fuck out if he had to pin you. Big difference in him and Bruno.

So what? What does legit toughness have to do with this? Paul Orndorff was one of the toughest motherfuckers to ever lace up a pair of wrestling boots, dude knocked out Vader with one punch, but I don't see Paul Orndorff anywhere in these last few rounds, if this entire tournament, do you?

Legit toughness is certainly a plus, but it's really ot a very important factor.

That's why I feel Race is vastly UNDERRATED by most of us. Just because he wrestled during a different time doesn't make him inferior to Eddie Guerrero, who isn't even considered one of the greatest wrestlers from MEXICO, much less the world.

1) Never said Eddie was better because he's from a more modern era.

2) Who the fuck doesn't consider Eddie Guerrero one of the greatest wrestlers of all time, and CERTAINLY one of the greatest Mexican wrestlers of all time? He's by far the most respected and revered member of the Guerrero family, and if you're telling me the most beloved Guerrero isn't rated very well by even his own country-men, I'm going to have to call bullshit on that.

And Race regularly went to Mexico, defended his NWA title against Gory Guerrero, and Chavo Classic and came out on top.

Luckily Eddie is twice the wrestler Gory or Chavo were and was twice as successful in this business than either of them. So to act like he couldn't beat Harley Race when the dude could knock off everyone from the best shoot-wrestlers in Dean Malenko to the biggest scariest beasts like Brock Lesnar, I see no reason why he couldn't defeat Harley Race.

But I'm not too wounded over this. I really wanted to see Race and Flair in a Hell in a Cell though. And you did, too. Hopefully. Oh well.

Either way, your shenanigans doesn't work on Mr. Lariato, X.

No shenanigans, just my opinion man. There were so many better workers than Harley even during his prime era.

 

[Hulkamaniac]

Never said he wasn't great. Everything you've just said could describe Eddie Guerrero though as well.

Except for the fact that he didn't win nearly as often, or nearly as many titles, despite working in a time period where the title changed hands far more often.

2) Who the fuck doesn't consider Eddie Guerrero one of the greatest wrestlers of all time, and CERTAINLY one of the greatest Mexican wrestlers of all time? He's by far the most respected and revered member of the Guerrero family, and if you're telling me the most beloved Guerrero isn't rated very well by even his own country-men, I'm going to have to call bullshit on that.

Well, I guess it depends on how we're defining greatness. Is he one of the top 10 wrestlers of all time? No. Top 25? No. Top 50? Probably. Harley Race is definitely top 25. And beyond that, Eddie is not even close to the most respected/revered member of his family, Gory is.

Luckily Eddie is twice the wrestler Gory or Chavo were and was twice as successful in this business than either of them. So to act like he couldn't beat Harley Race when the dude could knock off everyone from the best shoot-wrestlers in Dean Malenko to the biggest scariest beasts like Brock Lesnar, I see no reason why he couldn't defeat Harley Race.

I take it we're arguing kayfabe now? Well, he needed outside interference to beat Lesnar. And Eddie also lost to guys like Danny Basham and Jimmy Jacobs. JBL, Mark Jindrak, and D-Von Dudley are other luminaries Eddie lost to, all right around the time he won his single world title.

No shenanigans, just my opinion man. There were so many better workers than Harley even during his prime era.

You're flipping back and forth between kayfabe and non right here. WHo's a better worker is a non-kayfabe argument, and also purely subjective.

 

[X]

Except for the fact that he didn't win nearly as often, or nearly as many titles, despite working in a time period where the title changed hands far more often.

Well that all really depends on whether or not you want to rank the NWA World Title above a WWE World Title in terms of kayfabe importance. Race excelled in an era with a completely different style of wrestling than the style that Eddie Guerrero wrestled. Race beat Dory Funk for his first world title while Guerrero beat Brock Lesnar. I'm as big of a fan of the Funk family as you'll find, but if Guerrero could take out Brock Lesnar, a multiple time world heavyweight champion in wrestling as well as a UFC Heavyweight champion, what exactly is it that Race would bring to the table that Guerrero couldn't handle? You're an old-school guy, I'm sure you've seen plenty of Dory Funk matches, not exactly the most physically demanding or grueling style of professional wrestling, is it?

Look I'm not trying to say Eddie would easily defeat Race, but you guys making it seem like Race would easily defeat Eddie is outlandish at best. Guerrero achieved success and won numerous heavyweight and junior heavyweight titles across the globe (in more countries than Race in fact). I see no reason why Eddie Guerrero couldn't defeat Harley Race, other than you guys trying to make it seem like because Race wrestled in the 70s that somehow makes him superior. That's a load of bullshit.

Well, I guess it depends on how we're defining greatness. Is he one of the top 10 wrestlers of all time? No.

And neither is Race.

Top 25? No.

Certainly arguable. Arguable that Race would crack the top 25 either. I'd think most people in fact would probably rank Guerrero above Race, as this poll would seem to agree with me. I'm sorry you guys aren't willing to accept that someone who didn't wrestle in the 70s could be better than one who did, but I assure you it is possible.

Top 50? Probably. Harley Race is definitely top 25. And beyond that, Eddie is not even close to the most respected/revered member of his family, Gory is.

That's flat out false, not sure how you could even propose that. If this was 1989, sure, you'd be right. Too bad it's 2010 and Eddie Guerrero is more well known than Gory ever was. Gory was never half the star Eddie was, much like Eddie he was a consummate worker but he was never a star like Eddie was when he hit the WWE. Gory was always second fiddle to Santo, everyone knows that, he could never step out of his partner's shadow. Eddie on the other hand is probably one of the most popular superstars in wrestling history (as the fantastic sales of every Eddie DVD might attest to; not seeing any Gory Guerrero DVDs pulling in that kind of cash.).

I wouldn't rank Harley in my Top 25 personally, and if I did, I'd rank Eddie above him still for being the better worker, the more consistent star, and for having more charisma and being able to work a better match than Race ever could.

I take it we're arguing kayfabe now? Well, he needed outside interference to beat Lesnar. And Eddie also lost to guys like Danny Basham and Jimmy Jacobs. JBL, Mark Jindrak, and D-Von Dudley are other luminaries Eddie lost to, all right around the time he won his single world title.

And Harley Race jobbed to the Junk Yard Dog and Hacksaw Jim Duggan. What's your point?

You're flipping back and forth between kayfabe and non right here. WHo's a better worker is a non-kayfabe argument, and also purely subjective.

Luckily as I've said for several years now, I choose to treat this tournament as a tournament to decide who is the all-around best wrestler, not who would win a fantasy tournament like we were playing a season of NFL Madden and simulating games. It doesn't work like that, and I have zero interest in voting in this tournament like we were playing fantasy baseball. I treat every match up in this tournament the same, and vote for who I believe to have been the better professional wrestler. In my opinion Eddie Guerrero was a better professional wrestler than Harley Race. He was better in the ring, he was better on the mic, he could work a better match, he could play a face or heel role better than Race could, really I can't think of many things Harley Race could do inside of a professional wrestling ring better than Eddie Guerrero could. Maybe a better diving headbutt, I'll give you that. I imagine that wouldn't be much trouble for a man with the lucha background that Eddie has.

Vote however you'd like. I choose to vote for who the better wrestler is. Maybe you don't agree, but I and a majority of the rest of the voters here in this poll believe Guerrero was a better wrestler than Race was.

 

[Hulkamaniac]

Well that all really depends on whether or not you want to rank the NWA World Title above a WWE World Title in terms of kayfabe importance. Race excelled in an era with a completely different style of wrestling than the style that Eddie Guerrero wrestled. Race beat Dory Funk for his first world title while Guerrero beat Brock Lesnar. I'm as big of a fan of the Funk family as you'll find, but if Guerrero could take out Brock Lesnar, a multiple time world heavyweight champion in wrestling as well as a UFC Heavyweight champion, what exactly is it that Race would bring to the table that Guerrero couldn't handle? You're an old-school guy, I'm sure you've seen plenty of Dory Funk matches, not exactly the most physically demanding or grueling style of professional wrestling, is it?

I DEFINITELY think the NWA World Title, at the time we're talking, is more valuable then one of two WWE World Titles now. Not even close, actually. The belt is treated like a prop today, compared to an honor with Harley. Not to mention that Eddie only won his via interference, so his title reign was given even less value.

Look I'm not trying to say Eddie would easily defeat Race, but you guys making it seem like Race would easily defeat Eddie is outlandish at best. Guerrero achieved success and won numerous heavyweight and junior heavyweight titles across the globe (in more countries than Race in fact). I see no reason why Eddie Guerrero couldn't defeat Harley Race, other than you guys trying to make it seem like because Race wrestled in the 70s that somehow makes him superior. That's a load of bullshit.

Eddie just never had much success as a heavyweight, especially in America or Japan. I found a record of two heavyweight titles that Eddie won, the IWA Mid-South, and the WWE. Three if we count the US Title in WCW. Meanwhile, Harley won 29 heavyweight titles.

Certainly arguable. Arguable that Race would crack the top 25 either. I'd think most people in fact would probably rank Guerrero above Race, as this poll would seem to agree with me. I'm sorry you guys aren't willing to accept that someone who didn't wrestle in the 70s could be better than one who did, but I assure you it is possible.

While I guess it's fair to argue that it's arguable that Race wouldn't crack the top 25, using this poll as evidence of general wrestlign fans opinion is ridiculous. This board is populated by a LOT of guys who never even watched Harley wrestle. And I'm not a child of the 70's, I was born in 1983. I just have researched the history of the sport, and I doubt you'll find many historians of the sport who have knowledge of more then one era that would rank Eddie Guerrero over Harley Race.

That's flat out false, not sure how you could even propose that. If this was 1989, sure, you'd be right. Too bad it's 2010 and Eddie Guerrero is more well known than Gory ever was. Gory was never half the star Eddie was, much like Eddie he was a consummate worker but he was never a star like Eddie was when he hit the WWE. Gory was always second fiddle to Santo, everyone knows that, he could never step out of his partner's shadow. Eddie on the other hand is probably one of the most popular superstars in wrestling history (as the fantastic sales of every Eddie DVD might attest to; not seeing any Gory Guerrero DVDs pulling in that kind of cash.).

Probably because there weren't a whole lot of recordings of Gory matches happening. Either way, Eddie became a bigger star in america (but not in Mexico, as you falsely claim) because of a larger platform and a larger chance for little guys to work with big guys.

I wouldn't rank Harley in my Top 25 personally, and if I did, I'd rank Eddie above him still for being the better worker, the more consistent star, and for having more charisma and being able to work a better match than Race ever could.

All of this is very subjective, so I won't fight you on it, but I'd disagree with you on every one of those except for possibly charisma.

And Harley Race jobbed to the Junk Yard Dog and Hacksaw Jim Duggan. What's your point?

The difference being that all of those losses I listed happened within a year or two of Eddie winning his lone world title, so his "prime" if you will, whereas Harley in the WWF was not even close to his prime.

Luckily as I've said for several years now, I choose to treat this tournament as a tournament to decide who is the all-around best wrestler, not who would win a fantasy tournament like we were playing a season of NFL Madden and simulating games. It doesn't work like that, and I have zero interest in voting in this tournament like we were playing fantasy baseball. I treat every match up in this tournament the same, and vote for who I believe to have been the better professional wrestler.

Ok, but you DO argue some points in kayfabe and then some in non-kayfabe, so you'd have to understand the confusion. If you're using a scale that is different for each match, that's your right, but it just seems a bit inconsistent.

In my opinion Eddie Guerrero was a better professional wrestler than Harley Race. He was better in the ring, he was better on the mic, he could work a better match, he could play a face or heel role better than Race could, really I can't think of many things Harley Race could do inside of a professional wrestling ring better than Eddie Guerrero could. Maybe a better diving headbutt, I'll give you that. I imagine that wouldn't be much trouble for a man with the lucha background that Eddie has.

Now we're just bordering on disrespectful to Race here. Maybe you prefer the highflying style, but working a ground-based, more powerful hitting game is just as valuable and important as the high flying style.

Vote however you'd like. I choose to vote for who the better wrestler is. Maybe you don't agree, but I and a majority of the rest of the voters here in this poll believe Guerrero was a better wrestler than Race was.

The majority of people involved here also voted for Mick Foley over Jumbo Tsuruta, Booker T over Bruno Sammartino, Rock over Misawa, and, oh yeah, Bret Hart over Kenta Kobashi. I bet you don't agree with all those results, and now we can lay to rest the theory that just because a majority of people on Wrestlezone voted one way makes it a fact.