The Whole Plus Size/Curvy Debate

[Alex]

This will probably be a controversial topic but I'm going to try and make it as little offensive as possible

Now in recent years there's been this thing about people saying people should applaud curvy women for not conforming to the way people feel women should be (skinny etc) and I get that. Heck I love me a woman with stuff I can grab and not feel like I'll break her.

HOWEVER.

From the applause that the 'curvy movement' has brought on there seems to be a thing saying that (for lack of a better term) fat women are curvy. However I think that some fat women who call themselves curvy are deluding themselves into thinking they're a particular shape to make them feel better about their weight. I mean aside from the health issues that can be caused by being overweight I think the people who say that fat women are curvy are enabling them in ways meaning that they won't try and better themselves.

Now if you're into fat chicks fair enough and if you're a fat woman who likes the way you are fair enough also. But don't say you're one thing when you're not. Curvy women are curvy because of their frame. Fat women are fat because they have excess body weight.

I mean this is curvy

Spoiler

This is fat

Spoiler

It's like a fat guy and a large framed guy. Samoa Joe isn't a Greek God specimen. He has a large frame unlike say the guy who needs a scooter to get around.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that people should accept people for their natural frame (on both sides of the field). If you want to be a particular size fair enough, just don't delude yourself or others that you're a particular one when you're not.

 

[Con T.]

Says the (presumably) guy who doesn't have to worry about body issues.

Look, I don't see the need to make this a debate; if a woman wants to call herself curvy, great. That's her call to make, not yours. It's very easy to stand from the outside looking in, and say what is/isn't offensive. If you're calling someone fat, you're likely doing it in a way to shame them (which, kind of a douche move, just saying).

I don't see it as delusions; I see it as the term "fat" having an extremely deragatory syntax attached to it, that no one wants. Legitimately, all you're saying here is that people should have the right to shame somebody for their image.

And hey, you do have every right to that. No one's saying you can't say that. But you come off like a right cunt when you do.

 

[Spidey Revivey]

I see nothing wrong with calling yourself curvy, skinny, rectangular, etc. More power to you, especially if you're a woman.

But there is an ongoing problem that I notice especially in my news feed (or maybe it's because I'm from Arkansas where this thought is probably common). Several people now voice their disdain for the not-so-heavy women, going so far as using idiotic phrases like "Real Men Like Curves, Only Dogs Like Bones".

Now there are insults on either sides of the ballpark here, and I understand that. However, that doesn't make it any more right to say. Men like whatever the fuck they like, and women should look however the fuck they want to look.

 

[Dirk]

As a man living in Africa, I shy away from waify, hipless women who can't birth me my seven sun-kissed children. Being overweight is a sign of wealth, being undernourished is a sign of poverty. I'm not an ass-man at all and the bigger girls tend to fill out a bra better, so it's a win-win.

I think where guys grab the short end of the stick is that there isn't such a thing as a "curvaceous" man, otherwise I would've claimed that long ago.

I've described myself as "large", "husky" and "chunky" loads of times and that's not exactly the truth, so fair play to the girls.

Obviously, let's not call a girl fat, especially to her face. Why, yes, my white knight armour is fitting quite nicely. But seriously, don't. There's a shape and size for everybody and hopefully the minimum people will die alone and unhappy.

 

[Mustang Sally]

If you're calling someone fat, you're likely doing it in a way to shame them (which, kind of a douche move, just saying).

Personally, I think you're a great guy, Haiku. But, just for the sake of balance in this topic, since you think it's a douche move to shame someone by calling them fat......

But you come off like a right cunt when you do.

I've never liked it the times someone called me a "cunt".......and worse, when a man wants to insult another man, apparently the harshest thing he can do is make an obscene reference to a female body part and toss it at that guy.

Yes, I've been informed it "means something different" in the UK, but it still seems as rotten a way to try and hurt someone as calling them "fat."

Just my opinion.

 

[Con T.]

I've never liked it the times someone called me a "cunt".......and worse, when a man wants to insult another man, apparently the harshest thing he can do is make an obscene reference to a female body part and toss it at that guy.

Yes, I've been informed it "means something different" in the UK, but it still seems as rotten a way to try and hurt someone as calling them "fat."

Just my opinion.

And a meaningful one... One in which I do apologize to Alex about. I also sent him a PM that, yes, I apologize over, because that sort of language is out of line. And frankly, said in a bit of anger. But that doesn't give me the liberty to say something awful. Not to make excuses, more to explain... I spent a sizable amount of time in England and Scotland. I think it may have been FunKay that noted my perchance for saying "Aye" quite a bit, as well.


But that said....

Personally, I think you're a great guy, Haiku. But, just for the sake of balance in this topic, since you think it's a douche move to shame someone by calling them fat......

Man, if I qualify as a great guy... Trust me, I'm far from it . But I guess that's a little of my point... When you say bad things, you better expect people to look at you a certain way. I agree Alex has every right to call someone fat. I'll also have a certain opinion of him for it. Much as I expect I make my fair share of enemies. And all of them are right to have some sort of anger towards me.

 

[Blade]

I don't care what a woman wants to call herself, or how she wants to describe her appearance. It won't change who is and isn't attracted to them. If women are genuinely overweight, and call themselves curvy and a "real woman" (whatever the fuck that means) then, that's their own problem. And it's a problem that goes far further than whether they want to label themselves curvy or not.

Women with image issues are going to do what they can to make themselves feel better. It's rarely as innocent as simply calling yourself curvy. A woman who's obsessed with being skinny will call larger women fat. And someone who's larger than they want to be will say that skinnier women aren't "real women." Guys do it too. A muscular guy will openly mock a smaller guy, because that muscular guy is worried about the size of his junk or whatever.

It's just a human thing to use whatever words you wanna use, whether positive about yourself, or negative about others, to make yourself feel better. For better or for worse.

 

[ocekit]

You've caught me on a day I feel particularly salty. You can thank DDP for the lack of swear words in this post.

Since when are you the authority on what makes someone curvy and what makes them fat? They're only curvy if they fit your definition of curvy? Do you realize how that sounds?

What business is it of yours if a woman chooses to call herself curvy instead of fat, preferring to use a word without the overwhelming stigma attached to it?

Has it ever occurred to you that calling a woman fat might hinder her self-esteem and confidence and that this in turn can make them feel as if they're not worth putting effort into themselves and actually make their situation worse? Depression is one of the reasons, if not the main reason a woman might not put effort into herself.

Working out in general often requires a large amount of self-esteem and confidence in one's self. The ability to accept that your body won't do everything perfectly. When you go to a gym, it requires even more because you're surrounded by gym rats and skinny people. There's still a gym culture where fat people aren't always the most welcome or comfortable.

You don't know a woman's circumstances. You don't know her bone structure. You don't know her health issues. You don't know where she's at in her head, whether it be high or low self-esteem.

I'm not a fat woman. I'm quite small in bone structure, actually. But I envy the larger women who are comfortable with their bodies because I sure as hell rarely am.

For someone to tell another person how to build their own self-image is ill-informed and self-absorbed. If you want to be supportive of a woman and encourage her to lose weight for health reasons, calling her fat or telling her to call herself fat is not the way to go about it.

I've never liked it the times someone called me a "cunt".......and worse, when a man wants to insult another man, apparently the harshest thing he can do is make an obscene reference to a female body part and toss it at that guy.

As a woman, I agree with you. It's my belief that it's not a very good insult, either. A "cunt" is strong enough and flexible enough to push out a human being. No dick can do that, lol. It's also harder to take a woman down with a kick to the groin, whereas a kick to a guy's junk can sometimes finish a fight or at least make them whine like a toddler.

 

[Danger Burger]

I'd put a health at a higher priority personally. Not to say that if you're a little overweight you're automatically unfit etc. My main BJJ trainer is huge, but teaches near every day and moves like a gazelle. Still, if you're arguing yourself curvy to convince yourself your weight is healthy, I don't see the point.

I struggle on the opposite side of things. For years I was Floating around the 9st mark (120something pounds) at 6'2"... Far from ideal. Sure, maybe if I was a girl some would look at me and wish they were that skinny but it wasn't healthy and didn't feel too great about being told people could see my rib bones sticking out. (for those curious, I'm in a much better place now).

Like others have said, my main gripe is with the mentality that "Real girls have curls", wheras real girls come in many different forms. Sure, some feminists have argued this point, but its as hierarchy enforcing as the opposite. All forms should be acceptable, no need to shame the skinny to make yourself feel good.

Don't really know what you are trying to point out here though, Alex.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

I've never liked it the times someone called me a "cunt".......and worse, when a man wants to insult another man, apparently the harshest thing he can do is make an obscene reference to a female body part and toss it at that guy.

Yes, I've been informed it "means something different" in the UK, but it still seems as rotten a way to try and hurt someone as calling them "fat."

I think you're getting the "c" word confused with "fanny", Sal

I'm sure of how offensive the "c" word is in the States but in the UK it is pretty much the most offensive word in the English language (to the extent that even programs were "fuck" is regarded as acceptable will *bleep* out any use of it). It really is strange - if a man over here calls another man a "fanny" or a "pussy", it's questioning his masculinity (usually affectionately )but to call another man a "c" is really the strongest possible way to show your dislike.


As to the topic; what should a non-curvy large woman (FF does PC) call herself? Where does she cease to be curvy and start to be fat? For example, Anna Nicole Smith was described as curvy / fat / curvy / fat during her lifetime - where did she cross the border? You have given Samoa Joe as large framed, not fat, but his waist is larger than his hips - generally a widely regarded point for moving from curvy to fat in ladies. Yet, in his own culture, Joe would be far from regarded as overly large.

From my own life, I know I struggle to maintain a reasonable weight and I know many guys and gals who do the same so I've no issue with what ever way they like to classify themselves. I also know the people who, for whatever reasons, don't make any attempt to control their weight but I'm pretty sure they're aware of the truth (and the hazards of obesity). Whether they like to describe themselves as "curvy", "large framed" or whatever; who am I to impose my preconceptions on them?

 

[Con T.]

So, I'm sure this isn't particularly how Alex imagined this thread going... I've said my piece, and used some regrettable language along the way. I've since apologized to Alex for my choice of language, but there were quite a few things about this thread that left me more than a tad uncomfortable. So I've decided to come back into this thread, and instead of speaking in such a tone, have decided to explain what I find so rephrensible about Alex's post. And make no mistake about it, while I do apologize for my language, I have no plans to apologize for what I'm about to do now.

This will probably be a controversial topic but I'm going to try and make it as little offensive as possible

Needless to say, this did not work. Let me just start by saying this... I'm not sure what you hoped to accomplish here. If this was the conversation you wanted to have, great, but I doubt it. The reason this didn't go a way, is because everyone here can agree the only benefit to what you're proposing is being malicious. That's legitimately the only benefit to trying to divide the difference between "curvy" and "fat"... The only thing accomplished is giving people (read: you) open season to call people fat.

That comes from a very hateful place in the heart. At least, I imagine it to.

Now in recent years there's been this thing about people saying people should applaud curvy women for not conforming to the way people feel women should be (skinny etc) and I get that. Heck I love me a woman with stuff I can grab and not feel like I'll break her.

And here we go into the crux of my issue with you... It is abundantly apparent you're doing this, for the most superficial of places. This isn't about being concerned for women's health and "delusions"... This comes all about concern with the appearance/looks of a woman.

That's objectification. Way to go.

HOWEVER.

From the applause that the 'curvy movement' has brought on there seems to be a thing saying that (for lack of a better term) fat women are curvy. However I think that some fat women who call themselves curvy are deluding themselves into thinking they're a particular shape to make them feel better about their weight. I mean aside from the health issues that can be caused by being overweight I think the people who say that fat women are curvy are enabling them in ways meaning that they won't try and better themselves.

Again... Let's be real. You aren't doing this out of concern of health. You're doing this because fat women hold some hateful place in your heart.

Otherwise, this wouldn't be made into a gender issue, right off the bat. Why are you not being critical of the guy who claims his "beer belly" is just more to love? Why are we not making this an open gender issue.

Oh, right. This comes from a deep concern of a woman's apperance. Again, very shallow.

Now if you're into fat chicks fair enough and if you're a fat woman who likes the way you are fair enough also. But don't say you're one thing when you're not. Curvy women are curvy because of their frame. Fat women are fat because they have excess body weight.

I mean this is curvy

Spoiler

This is fat

Spoiler

How kind of you to give us something to distinguish by here. Once again, the main level of concern seems to be from the physical appearance.

And once again, I find this reprehensible.

It's like a fat guy and a large framed guy. Samoa Joe isn't a Greek God specimen.

Oh goody... We're finally taking this into a discussion about all genders, and body image.


Too bad it lasts all of two sentences

I guess what I'm trying to say is that people should accept people for their natural frame (on both sides of the field). If you want to be a particular size fair enough, just don't delude yourself or others that you're a particular one when you're not.

And what I'm telling you is, you've made this issue all about body image, and pretty much said you want carte blanche to attack a woman's appearance, because it disturbs you.

I have a problem with that, needless to say.

 

[Alex]

Yeah I should have worded the idea better. If I've caused offense I'm sorry.


I know the 'curves' thing is subjective (and I know my interpretation is probably what caused some offense) but I was trying to say that the very overweight women who claim to have curves are a bit strange to me (from the outside looking in) I guess it would be like a person saying they're not an alcoholic but they need a few drinks in the morning and one every few hours to keep them going. From the outside looking in I'd feel they were an alcoholic even if they claim they're not.

I guess I was trying to say you should feel comfortable in yourself without having to justify it with saying you're 'skinny' or 'curvy' or whatever.

I know there are guys who will also make excuses for their body shape also (which is kind of what I'm trying to get at). You shouldn't make excuses for your body shape. If you like it you like it. You shouldn't have to justify your weight (either way) by saying you're curvy, husky, skinny, slim etc. If you want to change it (for whatever reason) you should because you want to, not because someone else says so.

I mean I'm a pretty skinny guy and I'll admit it. There are loads of people telling me I should buff up and stuff but I don't want to I'm happy being the scrawny guy I am. I won't make an excuse saying I'm some sort of skinny buff guy. I'll just say I'm skinny.


Again sorry about the offense that I may have caused and hopefully this post gets my point across better than the original did.

 

[LSN80]

So what was the purpose of this thread, exactly? When I read it, Alex, the first thing that came to mind for me was this:

'He was on an Internet dating site, was "Catfished" by a woman, and he's pissed off about it.'

If this is the case, I can understand the frustration. If a woman tells you she's of "average" weight, for example, and she weighs 300 pounds, well, I can understand being upset. The person completely misrepresented who they are. On the television show, Catfish, this happens a lot. One female claimed to be a supermodel, and she was really the girl who had a crush on him since they were in high school. (They were in their mid-twenties by that time.) Some people on Internet dating sites spend large amounts of time getting to know the other person before meeting, so to find someone to be other then who they were expecting and told to be would be a bitter pill to swallow.

The example I listed above, with the woman claiming to be of average weight yet being 300 pounds is something that happened to my best friend years ago before he met his wife. The female posted pictures from years prior, and she had gained over 100 pounds in that time frame. She had a medical condition that cause such a gain, but still. If someone was overtly dishonest and misrepresented themself as something they are not, then I can understand this thread.

Either way, this struck me as a very personal thing. Others have been critical, so I'll not be myself. It just struck me as a very personal thing, is all.

 

[ocekit]

I know the 'curves' thing is subjective (and I know my interpretation is probably what caused some offense) but I was trying to say that the very overweight women who claim to have curves are a bit strange to me (from the outside looking in) I guess it would be like a person saying they're not an alcoholic but they need a few drinks in the morning and one every few hours to keep them going. From the outside looking in I'd feel they were an alcoholic even if they claim they're not.

I guess I was trying to say you should feel comfortable in yourself without having to justify it with saying you're 'skinny' or 'curvy' or whatever.

It's not always a matter of "justifying one's weight." In many cases, it's a refusal to describe oneself with a word loaded with so much negativity. It's hard for women in this world to be larger than it is for men to be larger. The "skinny" label is generally associated with more positive images, whether it be for man or woman. I'm not saying that you haven't faced antagonism for being skinny, but overall, society sees skinny as a good thing.
The word "fat" (in terms of describing a person) comes with very negative connotations for both genders, but for women especially. Society is still not nice to big women. It is hard to get past that. Some of these women may have grown up being called fat and circumstances led to the word being associated with poor treatment and awful feelings. When you grow up with that, it can seriously damage the self-esteem and confidence and lead to depression. This often leads to a cycle of stress eating, which leads to gaining more weight, which leads to more stress eating, and so-on.

Some larger women come to grips with these issues by embracing the "fat" label and associating it with something good, but not all women have the same psychological makeup. Some women need to distance themselves from that sort of label in order to get past it psychologically.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

When it comes to women, personally, I prefer a woman with some meat on her bones. I see a lot of these runway models or celebrities who look as though a fart in the wind would be able to knock them over and I just don't find it at all alluring. Don't misunderstand me, if you're a woman that's slender and prefers to be a certain size, there's nothing wrong with that whatsoever. It's just that I think soooooooooooo many people have a huge misconception about being overweight and it's one that Hollywood seems to have encouraged. Even more unfortunate is that so many people have allowed Hollywood to ultimately decide what's "sexy" or what's "fat" or what's "unhealthy" without bothering to make up their own minds.


In this day and age, a 28 year old Marilyn Monroe would be viewed as "fat" in Hollywood at 5'5.5" and 130 pounds. Marilyn By God Monroe!!!!!, probably the most enduring female sex symbol of the 20th century would be thought of as fat by today's media standards. A little while back, Christina Aguilera was essentially the joke of Hollywood a few years ago just because she was all of 160 pounds or so while stick thin women like Paris Hilton are the measuring stick of "hotness" for some reason. When I think of someone that's genuinely overweight and living a flat out unhealthy lifestyle.

These women are "curvy":
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/508554982895282459/
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/219339444326795065/
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/218424650652188619/

Those women look healthy. You can take care of yourself, workout, exercise and still have some meat on your bones. Now there's a big difference between being "curvy" and being obese.

These women are obese:
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/76913106107169364/
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/82683343132538452/
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/59883870014731049/

 

[Mighty NorCal]

The word "fat" (in terms of describing a person) comes with very negative connotations for both genders, but for women especially. Society is still not nice to big women. It is hard to get past that. Some of these women may have grown up being called fat and circumstances led to the word being associated with poor treatment and awful feelings.

So, at what point, during THEIR ENTIRE LIFE, should they have FUCKING DONE SOMETHING ABOUT IT


Ho-ly-SHIT man, there are more *****es in this thread than a fuckin' strip club. (What I imagine one to be, still haven't ever been).

Everyone can stop acting dense, and put away their white knight armour. All you damn well know what Alex is talking about, and he is right. When soceity, by and LARGE says "curvy" they do NOT mean fat girls, however, fat girls, in there forever mission of avoiding accountability for their own condition, try to lump themselves into this category. To sit and say that the difference is based only on Alex's interpretation is fucking ******ed, and you all damn well know it. I suppose me reffering to the Great Khali as "tall" is my own personal interpretation too, then yea? The term "curvy" is very well generally understood to describe girls with the physiques of

Kate Upton, The Kardashians, Mickie James, (for you porn peeps out there) Mason Moore, Christy Mack, Gianna Micheals, ETC. Its is used to describe enhanced, decidedly feminine features, such as hips, butt, thighs, breasts, and usually, a soft (not RIPPED, but not fat) stomach. To act aloof to this makes you look like an idiot.

When the HELL did pulling the "judging" card become the go-to defense for people who are wizard-sleeve sized *****es? It feels like these days, "judging" someone for their abhorrent behaviour or health is worse than THE ACTUAL NEGATIVE HABITS that were addressed!!

If being classed as FAT is so negative and hurtful, then stop blaming everyone else for being such meanies, and put the accountability on yourself to CHANGE IT. Dont use excuses, dont put the responsibility on anyone else to be nice to you, fucking DO something. Our own admin didn't like his weight, but instead of getting mad at EVERYONE ELSE, he got up, and went for walks on his little crippled-ass ankles. I am sure he doesn't look like Rick Rude at this point, but he didnt put the responsibility on everyone ELSE.

Curvy is curvy. Fat is fat. Stop trying to lump them when there IS, in fact, a VERY clear distinction, and trying to blame anyone who mentions the difference, instead of encouraging those who fall into a group they do not like to make the changes necessary.

 

[Slash-LN]

I get what Alex and NorCal are saying.
Curvy girls have curves. Round is not a curvy.
What are we supposed to be applauding the girls for?

I think it was Spidey in this thread that said something I wanted to touch on.

The whole "Real men like curves. Dogs like bones" thing.

We have actually reached a point in society where body shaming a fat person is wrong and mean and bullying but it's perfectly okay to body shame skinny girls. Body shaming is wrong on either side. My neighbor girl is really skinny and she always has people telling her she needs to eat and gain some weight and stuff. It hurts her feelings. And she's not anorexic or anything. She's just a little tall and has a long frame. Same thing with an ex girlfriend of mine. She's had 4 kids and eats regular meals and stuff and she stays skinny.

If you're happy with your body type then more power to you. Don't lie to yourself and tell yourself you're something that you're not though.