The True Standard Of Greatness

[S.J. Maximus]

There are a couple of new threads on this forum about the meaninglessness of world title reigns and how the midcard titles have no value, so it got me thinking about the good old days were guys had to work their ass off for the titles. In the 80's/early 90's people weren't given the title to get over (i.e. Sheamus, Jack Swagger), but they were given the title because they were over. Back then, being the WWF champion meant that you were the most over and the biggest star in the company, which was an honor and a very big deal.

With all that being said, I made this thread to see what you think is the true standard of greatness. There are many things to accomplish in the WWE, there have been a lot of different titles, a lot of events, and tons of gimmick matches that put over people's stardom and popularity. Which one do you think most accurately contains the best names in wrestling history?

Is it safe to say winning a WWE Title is the true key? Are Sheamus and Kevin Nash better than Roddy Piper? Is it safe to say winning a Royal Rumble is the true key? Is Del Rio better than Jericho? Curt Hennig fans can't say "Winning a WWE Title" because he never did, so they might vote "Winning an IC Title" or "Finishing in the Final Four of a Royal Rumble". Hopefully you get the point, but just in case you don't I'm going to reiterate: I want to know which accomplishment you think is the one thing that all of the greatest wrestlers of all-time have all done.

 

[frostbite2819]

i agree completely about getting a segment with vinnie mac, and main eventing WM, but here is also a good one that not many people get:
getting victories in ones hometown. it really is rare and seemingly only afforded to the greats.
also, getting a standing ovation in msg or in chicago after a big match is a pretty good barometer of greatness.

 

[King Patrick Star]

Edge has been the last man standing at the Royal Rumble, crowned King Of The Ring, and secured the Money In The Bank Briefcase and on top of all that, he won the WWE Tag Team Titles, World Tag Team Titles, United States Title, Intercontinental Title, World Title, and WWE Title. Yes, winning all the Titles and accomplishments are all great achievements for a Professional Sports Wrestler Entertainer, but how many of us would actually consider him the Greatest Of All Time?? He’s in my Top 20, but I don’t even think he is in my Top 10.

However, Main Eventing the Grandest Stage Of Them All, that’s what separates the Legends from the Champions. The accomplishment I think is the one thing that all of the greatest Wrestlers of all time have all done is being in the last match at WrestleMania. Winning is a plus, but just being involved means you have made it. Of course there will be a few exceptions, but that goes with any rule. Maybe it should be whoever Main Evented WrestleMania more than once just to remove some of the exceptions.

Here’s the list.

Hulk Hogan
“Macho Man”, Randy Savage
Yokozuna
Bret “The Hitman” Hart
Shawn Michaels
Stone Cold Steve Austin
The Rock
Triple H
John Cena
Undertaker

That’s a who’s who of the G.O.A.T. in the WWE. I would add a few more names that didn’t make the cut as far as my criteria goes, but that list right there is pretty damn impressive, if I say so myself. And for those who think of someone should not be on that list, I ask this one question. Who is the greatest Superstar of all time and who took him out during the peak of his career in 1993?? Oh and just so you know, Jericho, Angle and Flair are in my personal Top 5.

 

[RicoLen]

I'm having a brain fart atm., but I think it's called the grand slam. Where you've held all the titles, won the king of the ring and won the royal rumble. There's only a few of those guys around, and as far as know, every one is destined for the HoF. Unless someone can point out someone who really sucked but was a grand slam champion (I swear I'm using the wrong word, so please correct me if I'm wrong), I would say that is the true standard of greatness.

As far as what is the one thing that all of the greatest wrestlers of all-time have all done. There isn't anything. Jake the Snake Roberts never won any major title (NWA, WWF, AWA, etc.). We all know he didn't win the King of the Ring. Never won the Royal Rumble. Hell, Hacksaw Jim Duggan has way more accomplishments than Jake, and yet I bet most people think of Hacksaw as a guy that never achieved much in his career either. But is Jake The Snake a Hall of Fame worthy superstar? Yes.

The real goal is to be remembered fondly. And aside from the celebrity wing of WWE's Hall of Fame, everyone in the major Halls of Fame are just that.

EDIT: Heh, and as I'm posting someone comes up with a good example...

 

[Headman]

I don't think any of those things really make someone great. Either they are or they aren't. Piper was never champion and I think he was great. Ricky Steamboat never mainevented Wrestlemania or starred in a movie or even held the WWE title. He's a former NWA world champion, but didn't really hold onto it for very long, but his entire body of work makes him great. I think greatness is a very hard thing to define because different people are great for different reasons. With that said I don't think you have to be great to get into the Hall of Fame either.

 

[c2kblitz]

I think it may be more to do with having a great feud. Hogan had Savage in the 80s, Sting in the 90s. Flair had Steamboat, Sting and Savage. Austin had Vince and The Rock.

Also it's much harder to judge the current generation of superstars because theres not been a truly great feud over the last 4 maybe 5 years, barring Cena-Punk, and maybe a handful of others, as I'm struggling to think of any others

That and main eventing Wrestlemania (as in being in the last match not just one of the main events) is another definite sign of greatness

 

[James]

Shawn Michaels is the best because he has done it all. He complained, but he complained because he always would bring his "A" game! Nothing less.

He's done everything that's on that list. He was just the total package.

 

[Foshinzo]

The mark of greatness is that you were great...so, I guess popular opinion.

It's like asking if more Oscar awards make someone a better actor. Is Daniel Day-Lewis a better actor than Gregory Peck was because he had one more Best Actor Award than him? They're both great actors, but I'd say no, he isn't. This is the way it is with wrestling: we remember what we want to remember, and we base greatness on who garners the most positive memories. Hulk Hogan had five WWF/E title runs, Royal Rumble wins, and a ton of great rivalries, yet even the WWE releases a DVD of the 50 Greatest WWE Superstars of All-Time and doesn't put him in the top 20. I know that was a political move by the WWE, but it still speaks volumes.

If there is one determining factor as to what determines greatness, I would say it's individual moments along a career; how much do you cement yourself in our memories? It's how you sway the popular opinion of the fans. I think that's what Hogan's problem is with his legacy: his bad moments just about equal his positive moments, and he had some really positive moments. Ric Flair is having the same problem, more or less because he's become so pitiful since leaving WWE after 24.

Piper, Roberts, Arn Anderson, Perfect...it goes on. These guys never won world championships, though they did win titles (except for Roberts,), yet they're considered all-time greats. Alberto Del Rio has one more WWF/E title run than these men AND one more Royal Rumble victory, but is he even in their ballpark? Please, don't even try to answer that question with anything other than a swift, "NO." Piper has a fortune of memorable promos and moments. So does Jake Roberts. You remember the times that Piper kicked Cyndi Lauper and when Jake's cobra bit Randy Savage, not how many times ADR won the Royal Rumble, and that's probably what makes these men so unforgettable.

 

[Dagger Dias]

When it all comes down to it, it's all about winning world titles. The more titles someone has won, the more impressive they look, because it means that they were among the best. Especially world titles. The Hall of Fame and any standard of greatness should filter out everyone but the very best. Looking at the other options in the poll.... Performing in the main event at Wrestlemania is a big one, but then would that mean Lawrence Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame? Of course not. What about hosting a talk show? That's not as impressive as being a world champion. Neither is making it far in the Royal Rumble. Sure there are the arguments of champions like David Arquette or Vince Russo who would suddenly become elligible, but it should be about the guys who won several titles in their career. Those are the legends among legends.

 

[King Patrick Star]

Edge has been the last man standing at the Royal Rumble, crowned King Of The Ring, and secured the Money In The Bank Briefcase and on top of all that, he won the WWE Tag Team Titles, World Tag Team Titles, United States Title, Intercontinental Title, World Title, and WWE Title. Yes, winning all the Titles and accomplishments are all great achievements for a Professional Sports Wrestler Entertainer, but how many of us would actually consider him the Greatest Of All Time?? He’s in my Top 20, but I don’t even think he is in my Top 10.

However, Main Eventing the Grandest Stage Of Them All, that’s what separates the Legends from the Champions. The accomplishment I think is the one thing that all of the greatest Wrestlers of all time have all done is being in the last match at WrestleMania. Winning is a plus, but just being involved means you have made it. Of course there will be a few exceptions, but that goes with any rule. Maybe it should be whoever Main Evented WrestleMania more than once just to remove some of the exceptions.

Here’s the list.

Hulk Hogan
“Macho Man”, Randy Savage
Yokozuna
Bret “The Hitman” Hart
Shawn Michaels
Stone Cold Steve Austin
The Rock
Triple H
John Cena
Undertaker

That’s a who’s who of the G.O.A.T. in the WWE. I would add a few more names that didn’t make the cut as far as my criteria goes, but that list right there is pretty damn impressive, if I say so myself. And for those who think of someone should not be on that list, I ask this one question. Who is the greatest Superstar of all time and who took him out during the peak of his career in 1993?? Oh and just so you know, Jericho, Angle and Flair are in my personal Top 5.

This got me thinking about WCW’s Legends Tier. Sticking with the same formula, here is a list of WCW Superstars who made multiple appearances in the Main Main Event / last match of WCW’s Flagship show, Starrcade.

Ric Flair
Dusty Rhodes
Sting
Hulk Hogan
Goldberg
Lex Luger (last eliminated in Battle Bowl 1991)

These 5 names along with the 10 WWE names (Hogan in both) I listed above could make up the Top 15 Wrestlers from 83 to today, or I could be exaggerating a little bit.

Let’s take a look at ECW’s Legends Tier based off of November to Remember.

Terry Funk
Tommy Dreamer
Shane Douglas
Sabu
Bam Bam Bigelow
Raven
The Sandman
Justin Credible

I’d include Taz to this list, though he doesn’t qualify.

Let’s take a look at TNA’s Legends Tier based off of Bound For Glory.

Jeff Jarrett
Sting
Kurt Angle

Kurt Angle makes the list, and if it wasn’t for Jeff Jarrett, there would be no TNAIW.

Those are some significant names for each respective Federation.