The Taboo of Tapping Out....

[@smarkmouth]

... needs to end.

The first time I remember hearing the "You tapped out!" chant was the RAW after WrestleMania 20. The chant was directed at Triple H, following the epic Triple threat match with Benoit (winner by submission) and Michaels. I had to give begrudging credit to Triple H, because he spat it right back at the audience. "Yeah! I tapped out!" I think, as a performer, he knew what I, as an audience member, suspected. Flair wasn't met with this attitude after tapping out to Bret Hart. This attitude is trouble.

A submission was regarded as a valid victory, and had no stigma attached to it. Heel, baby face, it didn't matter. Sometimes you were at your opponents mercy, and you needed to live and fight another day. Suddenly, the audience and commentary team use the device as a method to detract heat from the heel, HHH. It made Benoit look good, and rightfully so, but did it really need to come at the expense of equating submitting to being a coward, or sensitive, or more vulgar versions of those two adjectives. By indulging in that attitude, there is suddenly a new variable you need to consider when protecting talent credibility, and in turn, a new limitation in how matches finish.

Enter John Cena, and hit the fast forward about ten years.

Cena has (in my opinion, wrongful) detractors in regards to burying talent, and the most voicetrous in those detractors offer more criticism when Cena beats someone by submission. In today's WWE, a submission victory does kill some momentum, but it really shouldn't. In fact, it wouldn't be so damn taboo if WWE hadn't continued to cultivate this attitude. Remember Fastlane, when Rusev "technically" beat Cena by submission, and Michael Cole was forced to pretend it was the most tragic fucking thing?

This taboo needs to end, and funny enough, I think it hinges on John Cena(yep, the same Cena that I just defended). I think because of Cena's kayfabe success, we've equated said success to the Never Give Up demeanor. In turn, there is a tranferance to all of the main event talent. If Cena doesn't tap, they can't either. Stop me if I'm blanking out here, but the last main eventers that I remember tapping out were Batista at WM XXX and Triple H at SummerSlam 2013. When is the last time you remember Orton tapping out? Daniel Bryan? Seth Rollins? Roman Reigns?

I believe that if Mr. Never Gives Up finally Gives Up, this poor attitude towards submission victories will start being ushered out of WWE. Hopefully we can accept that even top tier talent has a breaking point, and can stop worrying about it, kayfabe and otherwise.

 

[Aquaman6686]

The problem is that the powers that be (especially Stephanie and Vince) don't believe top babyfaces should ever tap out, because it would "destroy the fans' faith in them". VERY rarely do top babyfaces lose by submission in WWE, and I don't think Triple H would change that either. It's just something that's always going to be around unfortunately. WWE's biggest weakness is their constant need to have faces go over in almost every feud, never show weakness, and always be the top stars. That's where WCW had the advantage - there, heels were usually the top stars, and were regularly allowed to go over clean, including by submission. It was a much better way of booking, until Russo took over anyway.

 

[Just Zay'n]

To be perfectly honest, I think it needs to be taken a step further such that the taboo of losing needs to end.

I'm sick of hearing people say how wrestlers losing a match slows or kills their momentum. What momentum? It's a staged wrestling show, and it's 100% about the performance they give, and not the end result. For instance, how many new superstars have debuted over the years with a big win, and then have seemingly gone nowhere (Fandango, for example)?

Really, for anyone who goes and says Cena 'buries' talents, through either a submission or pinfall, needs to snap out of it. For an internet community of wrestling fans who seemingly know more about the business than 'casuals', thinking that wins and losses diminish a performer's worth is actually pretty dim-witted and mark-ish.

 

[A11oftheLights]

To be perfectly honest, I think it needs to be taken a step further such that the taboo of losing needs to end.

I'm sick of hearing people say how wrestlers losing a match slows or kills their momentum. What momentum? It's a staged wrestling show, and it's 100% about the performance they give, and not the end result.

I'm sorry but at the end of the day results do matter. How can you have someone constantly lose but suddenly have them in a championship match. People may say kayfabe is dead but its not, it is however on life support and the only thing keeping the plug from being pulled is W-L records.

The crap about swapping wins however does need to die

 

[Xemmy]

I don't think it all hinges on Cena, but you've definitely got a point. But in all honesty, Cena's only the posterboy for this attitude. He didn't start it. It's been a thing for a very long time. If I guy didn't tap, but passed out instead- he was considered a tough son of a bitch. Hell, it helped rocket Stone Cold to success against Bret Hart. And it became a formula. Undertaker and Kane avoided tapping out for years for this reason. (Though, to be fair to them part of their gimmick was that they were immune to pain) Top faces just don't tap. That's why they're the heroes. I don't think this attitude will go away until it becomes a regular thing for all the guys on the roster. Not just Cena, though they should start with him. All faces and heels would have to lose by submission. And the announce team would have to stop their bullshit. THEN the crowds might stop being assholes. Until then, it's here to stay. And I worry it's permanent.

 

[wrestler36]

I think you're looking into this a little too much. HHH tapped out to Benoit, Cena, Undertaker all at Wrestlemania. If it was really taboo, it would be lingering over head still, yet he's still in high profile matches with Lesnar, Bryan, Sting, etc. The 'you tapped out' lasts until what, maybe a week or two after it happens? Or if the wrestler is really good, he could fan the flames and make it part of his character (Kurt Angle and the 'you suck' chant).

If you're the big star of the company, you don't tap out because you won't be perceived at that big star anymore. If Hogan or Rock or Austin or, etc tapped while they were the face of the company, it would have been followed up by that same shock of silence when Undertaker got pinned by Lesnar.

 

[OYDK]

One of the reasons I like Seth Rollins so much is because he uses some very old heel tactics that have become to be looked at as "taboo". For instance, 3 weeks ago Rollins was put in the STF by Cena and almost immediately tapped out, not because he's "weak" but because he's smart. Nothing was on the line, so why go through the pain? I don't think tapping out is the real taboo here, as there are other factors that need to be taken into consideration, for instance, character. Seth Rollins can tap out without the stigma because he's a slimy, cowardly heel. Roman Reigns on the other hand, is built as this superman who can tough out anything, so "submitting" holds that stigma of giving up . It's no different from the old eras, where you'd be very hard-pressed to find Taker, Kane, Austin, etc. ever tapping out. Same goes for Hogan, Warrior, Savage, and Andre.

At the end of the day, some gimmicks allow their character to tap out without losing much of anything, while others affect their character's more for saying "I quit". I wouldn't say that nothing has changed when it comes to submission victories because that would be untrue, but I wouldn't go as far as calling it taboo. Just like in past eras, it all depends on who is the one tapping out and who's the one making them tap out.

 

[Mustang Sally]

The OP's pov is understandable, yet I wouldn't make too big a deal of the 'stigma' of tapping out.

Almost always, it's a fan's taunt thrown at a heel who had too big a mouth in the events leading up to the match in which he wound up tapping. Batista and Triple H are mentioned, but I also remember Kurt Angle being serenaded with "You tapped out" after losing to the Rock.

Kurt did so much mouthing off in the weeks leading to the event that he was practically inviting the fans to hit him over the head after his loss. Heels can lose by submission and not be taunted if they don't get too cocky beforehand.

Then again, how many bad guys can do that?

 

[enviousdominous]

I remember a time when if Rick Flair got you in the figure four, that was it. There was no getting out of the figure four, and Rick's opponent would scream "I QUIT" over and over.

These days; a submission move that could easily snap a bone is treated like a simple way for the two performers to either build cheap tension or discuss the next spot. Performers are almost always able to creep toward the rope and score a rope break, even John Cena's opponents hardly ever tap for the first STF.

While I realize that some submission moves are more potent than others, I just wish that escaping from a submission move wasn't so overplayed that it's become mundane.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I think wins & losses are supposed to matter; after all, nobody's interested in jobbers and nobody really rallies behind them for very long. As far as the taboo surrounding tapping out, I think it's just an extension of the taboo too many modern fans place around wrestlers losing as a whole. What I mean by that is that we've seen, NUMEROUS times in fact, complaints and declarations that a wrestler's push is being stopped, he's losing momentum or that he's being buried if he loses a match, especially in a match that's part of a high profile program.

A wrestler losing via tapping out doesn't hold any greater significance than if he's pinned, a decisive loss is a decisive loss no matter how you slice it. Too many fans overemphasizing almost every single time a wrestler loses, however, in my eyes, is more of a problem.

 

[Savior of Silence]

I think I have to disagree slightly. There's a taboo around tapping out because you're willingly losing as opposed to taking a finish, being knocked out and getting pinned. Yes, logically, if you're put a submission you're going to want to give up before your arm is broken but the fact that you willingly ended a contest is a little emasculating.

 

[BestSportsEntertainer]

It all depends on WWE's booking going forward.

What killed Kevin Owens momentum? (Face it, his momentum is indeed dead). It wasn't tapping out to John Cena (though that definitely contributed), but it was actually WWE's booking after Owens tapped to Cena.

Raw (7-20-15) - Walked out of a meaningless six-man tag team match.

Smackdown (7-23-15) - Walked out of a match against Rusev. Attacked Cesaro after his match with Seth Rollins.

Raw (7-27-15) - Lost to Orton via DQ because Sheamus interfered. Had a brawl with Cesaro for no apparent reason.

Smackdown (7-30-15) - Interferes in a match between Cesaro and Rollins. Loses meaningless tag team match in main event.

Raw (8-3-15) - MizTV segment with Cesaro.

SmackDown (8-6-15) - Nothing

Raw (8-10-15) - Loses triple threat #1 contender's match.

Smackdown (8-13-15) - Wins meaningless tag team match in main event.

Yep. He went from being booked as an unstoppable badass who beat John Cena in his debut match to a cowardly heel who wrestlers in meaningless tag team matches and interferes in multiple matches. This is proof WWE (especially Vince and Kevin Dunn) has no idea what it's doing.

 

[LuckyLouie]

See I dont see it that way. The reason people chanted You tapped to Triple H is because how often do you remember him tapping out. As I always sat as a taunt to the bigger stars who dont really lose in a way that makes them look weak. After Benoit won the title, they ran with the story of him making Kane submit. Since no one has ever made Kane tap up to that point. After that the chants started. No one chants if Cesaro taps, since he isnt a big enough star yet, but if DB ever makes Brock tap out, it will be huuuuuuggee! Brock doesnt tap out, ever, maybe once or twice to the ankle lock.

Think about it, the guys who I think never tapped out are

Steiner
Goldberg
Bret??
And Piper

Can you imagine any of these guys tapping out??? That would be insane. I think only about 4/5 people ever made Triple H tap. For these bigs stars its a huge deal to tap out. These are top guys who dont quit, and tapping out for them is like quitting. But I also dont think the fans see the person who tapped out as weaker, unless it was booker that way. Making someone tap out is theoretically much harder then just pinning the guy.

I also have to agree with OP about tapping out should be used more often. Its a cool way to win and not enough people are doing it.

 

[@smarkmouth]

Very fair and awesome perspectives, all around on this thread. While I'm at odds with some posts, they are fair perspectives, I think. The only major disagreement I have is on this thread;

VERY rarely do top babyfaces lose by submission in WWE, and I don't think Triple H would change that either. It's just something that's always going to be around unfortunately.

Forgive me for singling you out Aquaman, but I'm hopeful (if not possibly naive) that Triple H will bring a shift in attitude towards tapping out, and I think it will be more common if he ever has the reigns of the company. NXT has treated submission victories quite well. They make the victor look strong, and the loser often looks like they fought as hard as they fought as long as they could before tapping. Charlotte vs Sasha Banks on a weekly edition of NXT was a great example of that. Hell, Sami Zayn tapped to a headlock by Cesaro in one of their 2/3 falls matches. A headlock!!

I know Charlotte and Sami Zayn aren't the face of the company, but the H's have given me enough evidence that I can hope.

 

[Slash-LN]

It's not just a wrestling thing though. The crowd chanting it is but the attitude isn't. You'll hear mma fighters at times who tap out to chokes saying they should have just gone out rather than "tapping like a bitch".

Tapping out shows a sign of weakness in some sense. So people are going to feed on that stigma especially when it comes to extra cocky heels or heels that use a submission as their finisher.

Triple is is a tough, cocky heel. It's supposed to be a big deal to make him give up.

I think it wouldn't be as much of an issue though if there wasn't the tapping out motion. That adds an element of desperation. And that didn't come into full swing until Ken Shamrock came into WWE.

Think about Bret Hart beating Mr. Perfect with the Sharpshooter. It was a big deal for Bret to win because Bret won.

Think about the dynamic if you saw Mr. Perfect tapping out. And if there had actually been Monday Night Raw at the time you can bet that the crowd probably would have chanted something like that at Mr. Perfect. Because he was a cocky as all hell heel.

I think if tapping out hadn't become part of giving up, we would see certain submission finishes in the same light.

 

[Sexcellence of Sexecution]

The stigma towards tapping out has always existed in wrestling. Giving up is not in the vocabulary of the babyface, and tapping out is equated to giving up in the world of wrestling. Nowadays it's seen as a more decisive way of beating someone than a pin, especially because we are getting more clean pins on free tv than ever before in wrestling history.

Refusing to give up is what made Stone Cold a star, Undertaker has only tapped once in his career ever I think, same with Hogan and it wasn't in the 80s let me tell you. And of course Cena has never submitted as a babyface. Refusing to tap is a trait ingrained in the prototypical babyface, and it's ingrained in one of the greatest WrestleMania moments of all time.

However, the fact of the matter is that in real fighting, when you are put inot a submission hold you tap out and it's not that big a deal. It's a loss, but it doesn't destroy your reputation. It doesn't make you a quitter. It means you were outmaneuvered and caught. The problem is that wrestling, although it simulates a fight, isn't exactly like a real fight and so submission moves are used for more dramatic purposes. In an MMA fight a guy doesn't have an armbar locked in fully for a minute while the opponent fights the pain. Because that's ludicrous. But that's part of the drama that makes watching wrestling so fun. And as long as you have that dynamic, that epic struggle to crawl to the ropes before giving in to the pain, tapping out will be always seen as a bigger deal.

 

[FlairFan2003]

See I dont see it that way. The reason people chanted You tapped to Triple H is because how often do you remember him tapping out. As I always sat as a taunt to the bigger stars who dont really lose in a way that makes them look weak. After Benoit won the title, they ran with the story of him making Kane submit. Since no one has ever made Kane tap up to that point. After that the chants started. No one chants if Cesaro taps, since he isnt a big enough star yet, but if DB ever makes Brock tap out, it will be huuuuuuggee! Brock doesnt tap out, ever, maybe once or twice to the ankle lock.

Think about it, the guys who I think never tapped out are

Steiner
Goldberg
Bret??
And Piper

Can you imagine any of these guys tapping out??? That would be insane. I think only about 4/5 people ever made Triple H tap. For these bigs stars its a huge deal to tap out. These are top guys who dont quit, and tapping out for them is like quitting. But I also dont think the fans see the person who tapped out as weaker, unless it was booker that way. Making someone tap out is theoretically much harder then just pinning the guy.

I also have to agree with OP about tapping out should be used more often. Its a cool way to win and not enough people are doing it.

You cherry picked guys who never tapped out for different reasons. Goldberg's career was very short, if he had worked full time through the 2000s at some point he almost certainly would have tapped, especially if he turned heel. Im not sure about Steiner, though he lost plenty of pinfalls. Hart I don't believe ever tapped on TV but he tapped on the house show circuit, I actually saw him tap TWICE in the same match in Hartford in a 60 Minute Iron Match against Flair (Hart won 3 falls to 2 but Flair was up 2-1 after consecutive submission wins via the Figure Four).

Tapping out is seen as quitting, which isn't very tough. However, older fans know that there is not nearly as much stigma on submissions today as there was in the 80s. Back then you almost never saw a top star heel or face submit. Several wrestlers had submission finishers but they only worked on jobbers, which populated most of the TV Matches back then. Occassionally the "pain & injury" from escaping a wrestler's submission finisher would be the primary reason that wrestler got a pinfall (like Steamboat's knee giving out attempting a power slam on Flair, shortly after having escaped the Figure Four, allowing Flair to execute an inside cradle for the pin). In all the wrestling I watched back then as an avid fan the only time I remember a top tier star losing by submission was Tully Blanchard (although he TECHNICALLY didn't say "I Quit") in his "I Quit" No DQ Cage Match vs Magnum TA in 1985, Flair submitting to Steamboat in the 2nd fall of their epic 1989 Best of 3 Falls Clash of Champions Match, and Henning putting over Hart to be IC Champion.

Piper didn't tap out because he spent almost his entire career in the 70s and 80s - he rarely wrestled in the 90s and when he did was almost always a clear good guy.

Several top stars won a lot of matches without ever forcing a top tier opponent to submit despite having a submission hold as their finisher (Sgt Slaughter, Lex Luger, Sting, etc) - Flair occasionally got a pinfall when someone blacked out from the pain in the Figure Four but he never got submissions back then.

Really it was WWE in the early 90s that got away from that, starting with Hart. When WWE not only got Flair to submit clean to Hart to put him over as Champion and got HBK to submit clean in the World Title Match at S-Series 92 it broke down the taboo of submission wins. Soon after in both WWE & WCW we started seeing more established stars get wins via submission finishers against quality opponents. By the mid 90s it wasn't anything all that great and guys like Sting, Luger, Hart, even a heel Flair got Submission wins over established names fairly commonly on Nitro, Raw, and various PPVs.

These days it isn't that much of a big deal. Still, since heels are usually the more weak and less tough adversary in a match it makes sense that the stronger, tougher, faces don't typically lose via submission.

As far as the poster who said Kevin Owens loss of momentum was a result of bad booking and not because he lost to Cena.....I completely agree. The fact of a win or loss alone doesn't create or kill momentum. It's the cumulative way you are booked and presented to the audience and your own ability to connect with fans. Owens has little purpose since the Cena feud and hasn't had the upper hand much since then either. Bray Wyatt is a great example, red hot and on fire after feuding with Cena even though he lost the fued, yet he seemed to gain nothing from dominating and clearly winning his follow up feud vs Jericho. Here, a guy comes out on the short end of the storyline but he works so well and connects so well with the audience that he is way over, winning and/or losing wasn't much of a factor, while clearly dominating and winning his next fued didn't do much (fans didn't care much for the opponent or story).

 

[kadroan]

One of the reasons I like Seth Rollins so much is because he uses some very old heel tactics that have become to be looked at as "taboo". For instance, 3 weeks ago Rollins was put in the STF by Cena and almost immediately tapped out, not because he's "weak" but because he's smart. Nothing was on the line, so why go through the pain? I don't think tapping out is the real taboo here, as there are other factors that need to be taken into consideration, for instance, character. Seth Rollins can tap out without the stigma because he's a slimy, cowardly heel. Roman Reigns on the other hand, is built as this superman who can tough out anything, so "submitting" holds that stigma of giving up . It's no different from the old eras, where you'd be very hard-pressed to find Taker, Kane, Austin, etc. ever tapping out. Same goes for Hogan, Warrior, Savage, and Andre.

At the end of the day, some gimmicks allow their character to tap out without losing much of anything, while others affect their character's more for saying "I quit". I wouldn't say that nothing has changed when it comes to submission victories because that would be untrue, but I wouldn't go as far as calling it taboo. Just like in past eras, it all depends on who is the one tapping out and who's the one making them tap out.

Ah, I l never looked at Rollins tapping out like that. Good angle in looking at that.

I wonder could WWE do finishes where the face is clearly injured due to a kick or punch and then tap out, making it seem more realistic.

 

[@smarkmouth]

I had to pop this thread back up. Some other threads are discussing the recent AJ Styles vs Chris Jericho match from Fastlane, which had one of the best submission victories in recent memory. Recapping the finish; AJ hits Jericho with the Styles Clash, which Jericho kicks out at 2. AJ immediately locks in the Calf Killer. Y2J sells the both the pain of the move and his will to overcome, both in spades, until he has no choice but to tap out.

This is how I want to see submissions treated, at least in worthy programs like a feud. Granted, Jericho did play a soft heel in the build up and the match itself("You're a stupid man!"). However, the story at the end wasn't that Jericho was a coward or weak. The story was AJ Styles was the better man who won by submission.

Jericho, AJ, and whoever the agent was on this match deserve applause.

 

[kadroan]

... needs to end.

The first time I remember hearing the "You tapped out!" chant was the RAW after WrestleMania 20. The chant was directed at Triple H, following the epic Triple threat match with Benoit (winner by submission) and Michaels. I had to give begrudging credit to Triple H, because he spat it right back at the audience. "Yeah! I tapped out!" I think, as a performer, he knew what I, as an audience member, suspected. Flair wasn't met with this attitude after tapping out to Bret Hart. This attitude is trouble.

A submission was regarded as a valid victory, and had no stigma attached to it. Heel, baby face, it didn't matter. Sometimes you were at your opponents mercy, and you needed to live and fight another day. Suddenly, the audience and commentary team use the device as a method to detract heat from the heel, HHH. It made Benoit look good, and rightfully so, but did it really need to come at the expense of equating submitting to being a coward, or sensitive, or more vulgar versions of those two adjectives. By indulging in that attitude, there is suddenly a new variable you need to consider when protecting talent credibility, and in turn, a new limitation in how matches finish.

Enter John Cena, and hit the fast forward about ten years.

Cena has (in my opinion, wrongful) detractors in regards to burying talent, and the most voicetrous in those detractors offer more criticism when Cena beats someone by submission. In today's WWE, a submission victory does kill some momentum, but it really shouldn't. In fact, it wouldn't be so damn taboo if WWE hadn't continued to cultivate this attitude. Remember Fastlane, when Rusev "technically" beat Cena by submission, and Michael Cole was forced to pretend it was the most tragic fucking thing?

This taboo needs to end, and funny enough, I think it hinges on John Cena(yep, the same Cena that I just defended). I think because of Cena's kayfabe success, we've equated said success to the Never Give Up demeanor. In turn, there is a tranferance to all of the main event talent. If Cena doesn't tap, they can't either. Stop me if I'm blanking out here, but the last main eventers that I remember tapping out were Batista at WM XXX and Triple H at SummerSlam 2013. When is the last time you remember Orton tapping out? Daniel Bryan? Seth Rollins? Roman Reigns?

I believe that if Mr. Never Gives Up finally Gives Up, this poor attitude towards submission victories will start being ushered out of WWE. Hopefully we can accept that even top tier talent has a breaking point, and can stop worrying about it, kayfabe and otherwise.

Rollins tapped out to Sting a few months ago. It look like he tapped to preserve his body though.

 

[harrythem]

You know what's worse than a stigma about tapping out? ********s like Ziggler going out there and talking about "stealing the show" as it that's more important than winning or losing. I want to hear Cole moaning how a heel wins and JBL saying that "the history books just show who won and that's what matters". I remember when The Miz cashed in his MITB against Randy Orton and his reaction was fan-fooking-tastic as you could clearly see that winning that title meant the world to him.

Conversely you look at how Sting won the International title back in 94 in WCW. He didn't give a shit, made it clear the belt didn't mean shit to him and, thus, the fans didn't have a reason to care. That was thankfully rare then, it's far too common today.