The reason John Cena gets booed was that he didnt have a great match as a midcarder?

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

So there is no denying that Cena is a controversial superstar.He gets cheered by kids and booed by most adults.His haters say he's got only five moves and that his character is stale.However is that the only problem???

If you look at the greatest wrestlers over the past few years youll notice that as midcarders or upper midcarders they all had at least one great match to cement their place in the WWF.What this match does is give them instant credibility and so when they do break into the main event they do not seem out of place.Let us look at a few examples

Stone Cold Steve Austin-There is probably little questioning the fact that his match with Bret Hart at Wrestlemania 13 is what made him the toughest SOB in the WWE.

The Rock-Great match with Triple H at Summerslam 1998.There were quite a few who doubted Rocky's in ring ability prior to this match and while i would say that those doubts werent completely erased till his series of matches with Foley,this match did play its part.

Triple H-Look at above example

HBK-Ladder match with Razor Ramon at Mania 10.Enough said

Chris Jericho-Last man standing match with HHH at Fully Loaded 2000.He was more of a comedic babyface before this match.

Randy Orton-He might not be in the same league as the men above but the no holds barred match with Foley at Backlash 2003 is the reason why people regard him so highly

Now we come to Cena.There is no doubting the fact that as a rapper he was as over as any guy has ever been in the WWE.He was getting insanic reactions and the crowd was finishing his raps but in that period do you remember any great match that Cena had???

Then suddenly he won the WWE Championship.Then he was drafted over to Raw and he was defeating guys like Jericho and Angle.Now this is an interesting point of time.He was still in his rapper phase,still getting pops each time he rapped but if you hear closely he started getting booed in his matches.It was as if people werent buying into the fact that he could defeat Jericho or Angle.Then we all know what happened.He changed his character and those mixed reactions have never stopped since.

Could all this have changed had Cena participated in a great match in his midcard days??

Thats my question to you guys.Please back up your answers with reasons

 

[The Raven's Epitaph]

John Cena was never immaculate during his mid-card days. He only had his reign as United States Champion to back him up for it. I suppose you could mention his match with Brock Lesnar and his match with Undertaker.

If you want to mention his World Tag Team Championship reign as a midcard mention...then throw that one in aswell.

John Cena is one of few people that have been elevated to superstardom (or in this case, Supermandom...if that's a plausible word.) too quickly. He was the rap jobber everybody hated in 2002 after his debut with Kurt Angle. He was the cocky teenage dropout in 2003 and by 2004 he was already main-eventing; not to mention the fact that he progressed through the Royal Rumble and No Way Out, succesfully bagging himself a shot at JBL's title in 2005, ready for Wrestlemania 21.

I'm not sure whether Cena having good midcard matches would have changed the way people think about him now. I mean, he was on fire and competely over in 2004 and 2005. When he won the WWE Championship at Wrestlemania 21, he was the most over person in the business. Since then he's had so many different championship reigns; some of them lasting a while. I really don't think it's a case of people booing Cena because he 'didn't have very good midcard matches' as you put it. I think it's a case of people becoming bored of Cena. Let's face it, he's just your typical wrestler with no overall gimmick besides being made Superman by the creative team. I can see that he's gone downhill now.

He's no longer in the Championship picture, which makes a nice change and gives other people a chance; even if Randy Orton is champion again. The Nexus storyline has took up most of Cena's year and I can't see much out of him now. Not until Nexus are gone completely. He'll be back in the WWE Championship run after that. Wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Nada]

As a white guy from europe who happens to love rap music since Public Enemy and Run DMC burst on the scene, ill say it outloud:

People view white rappers as being lame

That might be unfair and i can tell you right now that there are a few decent white rappers underground, but in general (largely becuase of Vanilla Ice) people view white rappers as absolute jokes.

I believe that has been Cenas biggest hurdle, he isent a great wrestler but neither was Hogan, nor The Rock, Austin was pretty good before his injuries piled up on him.

Seeing Cena with all that "hip hop gear" makes most people laugh and question who this guy is, anyone above the age of 15, upon seeing a white muscle bound guy in a ORANGE or PURPLE t shirt with all sorts of slogans will laugh.

Take a look at The Rock, now that is the epitome of cool, it dosent matter how old you are, or what your backround is, The Rock is freaking cool, you can take his character from any year other than his Rocky Maiva days, and put him today in the ring and he would still be cool.

Thats not nostalgia, if you had a new gf or just a bunch of friends who never saw wrestling, in order to impress them with a promo, would you pick a John "White Guy Rapper" Cena or The Rock? Be honest here, i would be embarassed if some of my friends saw or heard Cena's theme song


I believe his gimmick has held him back, he isent a rapper anymore and hasent been, but he still carries the t shirts, theme song etc

 

[PhD]

I'm not sure Cena is the only person to ever get hotshotted to the main event without working a memorable midcard match. Does this mean Sheamus will have trouble getting over as face in the future, given that he had zero PPV appearances before being booked to win the WWE championship? Same thing goes for Barrett.

 

[brighamosity]

Honestly, I don't think it has anything do do with Cena's matches with the rapper gimmick. Adults don't like him because he's just like Hogan was 20 years ago. He panders to the crowds. All he does is say things like "I love my fans! You are all the coolest people in the whole world!" I like Cena as a person, and I think he is great for the WWE, but as an adult, I find his character annoying at times. But that has nothing to do with him personally and if he changed gimmicks/turned heel, I could easily see myself cheering for him.

 

[Mr. Artistic guy]

No everybody wants to see if you can really go at least once. i would say that being able to do that really gives you followers at the very least...bull dog vs bret hart really made bulldog a big singles name then.... Macho man vs steamboat definately elevated macho man's career. With regards to michaels vs razor ramone, I think shawn was most likely already on the way to the top but those two ladder matches they had cemented it

 

[GLOBAL ICON]

He didn't need a great mid-card match. He worked his way out. I mean, he used to work his ass out and thus, gained the ol' man's respect. That's why he is the superstar he is today. And guys, he is in the same league of Triple H now. Look at the top 5 stars currently (based on everything that Vince sees): 1. Taker 2. Rey 3. Hunter 4. Orton and 5. Cena. See, he didn't need a great mid-card match.

 

[tvcolosi]

I think he gets booed causes her wrestles in "Jorts" (jean shorts)... j/k lol

I hate to poke a hole in your theory but didn't Cena have one on those midcard match-ups you speak of Vs. Taker at Vengeance 2003.

I remember that being a very good match, in fact it was included Undertakers tombstone DVD set. I think the reason he gets the negative reaction is that its the same character for the last 8 years. 'its a rare combination of a stale gimmick that is still profitable. I can't blame WWE for not wanting to change it. Its still a business btw...

It a guy like Jeff Hardy was still around selling shirts and foam fingers a close second to Cena, you might see a heal turn, but no now, no really over babyfaces..

 

[OutsiderDX]

I don't think one match would change anything. Having 1 great match between 999 uniteresting ones wouldn't allow a wrestler to be viewed as good.

As an exaggerated example- if a man commits 999 murders - then saves 1 man's life. He would still be viewed as a murderer, not a savior.

Now if Cena had an outstanding 4 1/2 star match early on, then followed it up with other outstanding matches, i think he would have gotten the benefit of the doubt.

But fact and reality is, John Cena will never have a 5 star match. He has zero skill in captivating anyone with his matches. He has zero ability to create any "Suspension of Belief" for the audience. He has zero desire to even try to improve to achieve these two things.

The above wrestlers you have named followed their early great match with a career filled with other ones.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

I think he gets booed causes her wrestles in "Jorts" (jean shorts)... j/k lol

I hate to poke a hole in your theory but didn't Cena have one on those midcard match-ups you speak of Vs. Taker at Vengeance 2003.

I remember that being a very good match, in fact it was included Undertakers tombstone DVD set.

it was certainly a good match but it was by no means great.plus vengeance 2003 was a great ppv and so this match kinda got overshadowed by other matches like guerrero vs benoit and the main event which was angle vs lesnar vs big show.

also i just checked up dave meltzer's website.he has rated this match at ***1/4.while the rest of the matches i mentioned are all above four stars and are unarguably the best matches of their respective shows

 

[Ferbian]

Excuse me for a moment.



John Cena didn't have any good matches in the mid-card? How about his matches with Kurt Angle, his matches with Brock Lesnar (I believe they had one or two here and there), his match with Undertaker? His match with Big Show for Christ sake?

John Cena isn't getting booed because he had bad mid-card matches. Because let's face it, he didn't have bad mid-card matches. John Cena rarely ever had a generally bad match actually. This guy excels in putting on good to great high profile matches. He delivers whenever he's out there in some manner or another. So there's no bad matches to boo him for.

John Cena I would guess gets booed because people doesn't want to see the guy constantly hold championships. They think he's stale, and they think he's a shitty wrestler. Awful reasons if you ask me, but it seems to be the idea of the IWC, or the general fan. John Cena to them are boring, and should simply stay away. Or more importantly, go back to his mid-card gimmick of the rapper. This is where a lot of people seemed to truly find John Cena interesting. And this is why I couldn't POSSIBLY imagine John Cena getting booed due to his mid-card matches.

So yeah, this bunch of smilies describes this thread pretty thoroughly.

 

[zman21]

no matter what there is gonna be fans hating on cena, orton, and mysterio u just cant please everyone and people cna cheer and boo who ever they want. if cena had a great memorable match i think he will still get booed. he gets booed cause wwe pushes him in our face way to much each week. they guy makes wwe big money so i guess he will continue to get pushed in our faces untill he stops making money for wwe

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

Excuse me for a moment.



John Cena didn't have any good matches in the mid-card? How about his matches with Kurt Angle, his matches with Brock Lesnar (I believe they had one or two here and there), his match with Undertaker? His match with Big Show for Christ sake?

John Cena isn't getting booed because he had bad mid-card matches. Because let's face it, he didn't have bad mid-card matches. John Cena rarely ever had a generally bad match actually. This guy excels in putting on good to great high profile matches. He delivers whenever he's out there in some manner or another. So there's no bad matches to boo him for.

John Cena I would guess gets booed because people doesn't want to see the guy constantly hold championships. They think he's stale, and they think he's a shitty wrestler. Awful reasons if you ask me, but it seems to be the idea of the IWC, or the general fan. John Cena to them are boring, and should simply stay away. Or more importantly, go back to his mid-card gimmick of the rapper. This is where a lot of people seemed to truly find John Cena interesting. And this is why I couldn't POSSIBLY imagine John Cena getting booed due to his mid-card matches.

So yeah, this bunch of smilies describes this thread pretty thoroughly.

just look at the matches i mentioned for the other set of guys.is john's match with big show,taker or lesnar at the same level as bret/austin at wrestlemania 13.the short answer is NO.ask a casual fan if he remembers john's match with lesnar and he'll say no.ask the same group if they remember austin/bret and they'll say yes.so yeah while these matches of cena arent shitty they are still just about *** matches.so you cant say that john had great matches as a midcarder and my arguement still stands

 

[Ferbian]

just look at the matches i mentioned for the other set of guys.is john's match with big show,taker or lesnar at the same level as bret/austin at wrestlemania 13.the short answer is NO.ask a casual fan if he remembers john's match with lesnar and he'll say no.ask the same group if they remember austin/bret and they'll say yes.so yeah while these matches of cena arent shitty they are still just about *** matches.so you cant say that john had great matches as a midcarder and my arguement still stands

There's quite a lot of matches that doesn't reach the same kind of epicness that Austin and Bret produced. Hell the majority of Shawn Michaels 2000-> matches doesn't truly match up to it. Does it mean that Shawn in the past 10 years was shit? Not at all.

John Cena had pretty good matches in the mid-card. There's not a match that is directly awful. Star quality matches are bullshit, and everybody knows that. Have you seen what kind of matches Dave Metzler rates as 5 star matches? Have you thought that Undertaker vs Shawn Michaels at Wrestlemania 25 and 26 were 5 stars? Well Dave disagreed with you.

Just because someone produces a specific amount of stars, or lack of stars in a match doesn't mean that he had awful matches. So your argument might stand, but it completely blows.

 

[Genius_Deadman]

i think he gets booed because he changed his character once he became champion. he was the rapper before, he won the title and stayed as one for a bit, then he changed into the goody goody character and that's when he started getting heat.

this started happening when he moved to RAW too, that's when he started changing. i don't think it's because of his moveset or his shorts or whatever else people may bring up. i think it's because he would be classified as "selling out" because his rapidly changed his gimmick into something people would consider him as being a "fake"

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

There's quite a lot of matches that doesn't reach the same kind of epicness that Austin and Bret produced. Hell the majority of Shawn Michaels 2000-> matches doesn't truly match up to it. Does it mean that Shawn in the past 10 years was shit? Not at all.

John Cena had pretty good matches in the mid-card. There's not a match that is directly awful. Star quality matches are bullshit, and everybody knows that. Have you seen what kind of matches Dave Metzler rates as 5 star matches? Have you thought that Undertaker vs Shawn Michaels at Wrestlemania 25 and 26 were 5 stars? Well Dave disagreed with you.

Just because someone produces a specific amount of stars, or lack of stars in a match doesn't mean that he had awful matches. So your argument might stand, but it completely blows.

look ferb dude i got a lot of respect for you but youre kinda reaching out for straws here.forget austin/bret even foley/orton is much better than anything john ever did as a midcarder.

as for hbk i can say that his matches against triple h,angle,jericho and the undertaker are as great as the ones he had in the first part of his career

as for dave meltzer he has rated both hbk/taker matches as ****3/4.thats very close to 5 stars in case you dont have an idea about star ratings.ratings are relative but i think even meltzer will admit both were great matches

and i never said cena had bad matches in the midcard.i said he didnt have the epic kind of matches which give you credibility instantaneously.none of his matches were memorable in the least

 

[Ferbian]

look ferb dude i got a lot of respect for you but youre kinda reaching out for straws here.forget austin/bret even foley/orton is much better than anything john ever did as a midcarder.

Simple opinion. I happen to think rather highly about John Cena's matches with Batista in this year. Or John Cena vs Shawn Michaels at Wrestlemania. John Cena vs Triple H at Wrestlemania. All of which are in my opinion (See, opinion, just like yours) is much better than Mick Foley vs Randy Orton.

as for hbk i can say that his matches against triple h,angle,jericho and the undertaker are as great as the ones he had in the first part of his career

Agreed. But some would say they hold no water to Austin / Bret.

as for dave meltzer he has rated both hbk/taker matches as ****3/4.thats very close to 5 stars in case you dont have an idea about star ratings.ratings are relative but i think even meltzer will admit both were great matches

I perfectly well know what star ratings are. But they're also bullshit. It's a personalized opinion about a match. Dave didn't think the match was warranted of a 5 star match, and he didn't give it a 5 star match. We all know that Dave is fucking high on Japanese wrestling. So once again, star ratings are bullshit and can hardly be used as an argument to say that John Cena didn't produce quality mid-card matches. Because, he did.

and i never said cena had bad matches in the midcard.i said he didnt have the epic kind of matches which give you credibility instantaneously.none of his matches were memorable in the least

Once again an opinion. Certainly some of his mid-card matches weren't epicness of epic proportions. However, they were certainly more than fine to warrant him not to be booed. Like I said from the very beginning of my reply, John Cena gets booed for the character. Not due to his match qualities, because that would be bullshit considering he pretty much puts on Match of the Night half the times he's out there.

 

[Justin Satiable]

I love Ferbian. He takes the words right out of my, erm... fingers?

I have no idea what this "no good mid-card match" crap is all about. I personally ate up his feud with Brock, and I loved his bouts with Angle. I also shat a brick when he FU'd Big Show at SS 03 and WMXX.

And to other main point of the thread. I don't see why he would particularly need a big mid-card match to make his career. He proved he was interesting, and he got over. What has happened now however is exactly what happened to Hogan in the mid 90s: People got bored of the superhero crap. What was the solution for Hogan? nWo. Back to the present day. A lot of people, myself, on occasions, included, have grown sick of the "never give up" superman gimmick of Cena, yet now he's integrated into the heel stable Nexus. How long before Cena flips and goes full heel? Who knows.

If Cena is to continue the way Hogan did (not saying that Cena has ever/will ever match up to the popularity of Hulk Hogan) perhaps he'll be cheered again someday, once his heel turn has reversed and he's back to one of the goodguys.

tl;dr: Dave Meltzer is a tool, I loved mid-card Cena, Cena could pull a Hogan, I believe in Cena's ability to entertain

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

Simple opinion. I happen to think rather highly about John Cena's matches with Batista in this year. Or John Cena vs Shawn Michaels at Wrestlemania. John Cena vs Triple H at Wrestlemania. All of which are in my opinion (See, opinion, just like yours) is much better than Mick Foley vs Randy Orton.



Agreed. But some would say they hold no water to Austin / Bret.



I perfectly well know what star ratings are. But they're also bullshit. It's a personalized opinion about a match. Dave didn't think the match was warranted of a 5 star match, and he didn't give it a 5 star match. We all know that Dave is fucking high on Japanese wrestling. So once again, star ratings are bullshit and can hardly be used as an argument to say that John Cena didn't produce quality mid-card matches. Because, he did.



Once again an opinion. Certainly some of his mid-card matches weren't epicness of epic proportions. However, they were certainly more than fine to warrant him not to be booed. Like I said from the very beginning of my reply, John Cena gets booed for the character. Not due to his match qualities, because that would be bullshit considering he pretty much puts on Match of the Night half the times he's out there.

all those cena matches you mentioned are AFTER he reached ME status

and not every match can be as great as austin/bret but nonetheless those matches of shawn that i mentioned can be called great.

also read my post carefully.ill just write what i wrote earlier once again

"Then suddenly he won the WWE Championship.Then he was drafted over to Raw and he was defeating guys like Jericho and Angle.Now this is an interesting point of time.He was still in his rapper phase,still getting pops each time he rapped but if you hear closely he started getting booed in his matches.It was as if people werent buying into the fact that he could defeat Jericho or Angle."

so you see he was getting booed however little it may be even in his rapper phase which many people argue as his better character

 

[Ferbian]

all those cena matches you mentioned are AFTER he reached ME status

I know that. But it's just to state the fact that what you and I said are opinions, and opinions doesn't make facts.

and not every match can be as great as austin/bret but nonetheless those matches of shawn that i mentioned can be called great.

Agreed.

also read my post carefully.ill just write what i wrote earlier once again

"Then suddenly he won the WWE Championship.Then he was drafted over to Raw and he was defeating guys like Jericho and Angle.Now this is an interesting point of time.He was still in his rapper phase,still getting pops each time he rapped but if you hear closely he started getting booed in his matches.It was as if people werent buying into the fact that he could defeat Jericho or Angle."

That paragraph doesn't make sense. Why would he get booed for not being credible against the guys (Which is hardly true, he was more than credible at defeating those guys. Didn't he defeat Kurt Angle as a mid-carder as well?). Him not being credible enough has nothing to do with his mid-card match qualities.

I'll say it again. John Cena were getting booed because of getting stale, and because people just didn't want to see a face rapping Cena I guess.

so you see he was getting booed however little it may be even in his rapper phase which many people argue as his better character

His heel rapper phase is what people praise. Not the face rapper.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

I know that. But it's just to state the fact that what you and I said are opinions, and opinions doesn't make facts.



Agreed.



That paragraph doesn't make sense. Why would he get booed for not being credible against the guys (Which is hardly true, he was more than credible at defeating those guys. Didn't he defeat Kurt Angle as a mid-carder as well?). Him not being credible enough has nothing to do with his mid-card match qualities.

I'll say it again. John Cena were getting booed because of getting stale, and because people just didn't want to see a face rapping Cena I guess.



His heel rapper phase is what people praise. Not the face rapper.

look first of all he hadnt beaten angle in a match.he had taken him to the limit in his very first match but angle had won by some kind of a bridging pin.that was again at that time extremely inexplicable that some guy could just walk up and outclass a guy like angle.so cena who had debuted much as a generic babyface like rocky miavia started getting booed

now there's not much to explain but ill try.cena as i stated earlier had not had that epic match that i mentioned other greats as having.so he did not have the credibility that he was a great wrestler.angle and jericho are great wrestler and even as heels you have to think that only a guy who is as good as them could beat them.cena was not seen as a great wrestler.hence he started getting booed

also your last statement is again an opinion.i think one of his most memorable raps was against kenzo suzuki in 2004 as a face

 

[Ferbian]

look first of all he hadnt beaten angle in a match.he had taken him to the limit in his very first match but angle had won by some kind of a bridging pin.that was again at that time extremely inexplicable that some guy could just walk up and outclass a guy like angle.so cena who had debuted much as a generic babyface like rocky miavia started getting booed

Ah yes, that's true. Forgot he never defeated him. Either way his build defaults him to look credible. Also, he defeated Chris Jericho in his first Pay Per View match.

Also, why is it unbelievable that someone can debut and kick someone elses ass? Alberto Del Rio did it? John Cena was debuted to look good, and that was what was done. John looked great against Angle. And John still had great matches with Angle, as well as many others while he was a mid-carder. So it wasn't his matches being awful that got him booed.

now there's not much to explain but ill try.cena as i stated earlier had not had that epic match that i mentioned other greats as having.so he did not have the credibility that he was a great wrestler.angle and jericho are great wrestler and even as heels you have to think that only a guy who is as good as them could beat them.cena was not seen as a great wrestler.hence he started getting booed

You don't need the credibility of being a great wrestler to get over and get popular and have great matches. Hulk Hogan anybody?

Also, you're starting to get it. He's not a great wrestler by moveset (I would tend to disagree, I find John to be a great wrestler.. One of the best currently all-around) But John still gets booed by the fans because of it. Not because of his match quality in the mid-card. But because of his moveset, stale character and so called inability to sell (Which is bullshit)

also your last statement is again an opinion.i think one of his most memorable raps was against kenzo suzuki in 2004 as a face

It's not an opinion if I'm saying other people praise John Cena's heel rapper phase. I personally never praised John Cena's rapper gimmick.

 

[Calderownz]

He gets booed for a number of reasons.

Number one, WWE has more of a core than casual fanbase at this point. Hence the reason that old tricks like; special guests, gimmick matches, big returns, don't really spike the ratings anymore. The core is set. The core is there. The core is made up of mostly hardcore fans that don't like someone who isn't the total package.

Say what you want about Cena, but he is a nearly complete performer. He is solid enough on the mic, he has the look, the build, the attitude, and mindset to be successful. However, he lacks one important thing.... he's only slightly above average in the ring. Hardcore wrestling fans HATE that. It'd be fine if he was at a CM Punk or Cody Rhodes level. But he's not at either level. He's far beyond those levels.

That pisses die-hard fans off. They favor someone who might lack in most or some of the other aspects that Cena remains strong in, but can wrestle like nobodies business. Just the way that goes.

Another reason.. guys hate anyone famous or otherwise that their chick likes when they don't care about any other aspect of what that person is involved in. Most guys, if they watch wrestling and see their girlfriend only pays attention when Cena wrestlers, get annoyed by things like that. Just bothers them. It's a weird guy thing.

Another thing, fans of most forms of entertainment, love to go against the grain. You say Kobe is the best, they like LeBron. LeBron is the best? They like Wade. Just the way most fans are. They love to be different.

Just my take.

 

[Hawkeye]

Stop trying to look for a reason why people boo John Cena.Bad things happen,sometimes for the wrong reasons,but they still happen. Grown men boo John Cena because he's popular with children,"he only knows five moves", he created PG WWE, blah fucking blah. John Cena had great matches as a midcarder.His debut against Kurt was a great match filled with mat wrestling that every claims Cena "can't do" and had me on the edge of my seat from start to finish. His match with Carlito defending his US Championship was also a great story told in the ring and instantly got Carlito over as as heel.

But fact and reality is, John Cena will never have a 5 star match. He has zero skill in captivating anyone with his matches. He has zero ability to create any "Suspension of Belief" for the audience. He has zero desire to even try to improve to achieve these two things.

WHAT!? So you're telling me John Cena can't captivate an audience? Did you not hear the entire arena shouting"Never Give Up" when he walked out of that battle royale? Did you not feel the sense of despair when he lost at HIAC and was forced to join Nexus? Then you sir, have no sense of emotion.

 

[OutsiderDX]

I'm a huge John Cena hater. And i am willing to be impartial and admit that his role as Nexus member has been decent. I enjoy emotion in wrestling.

With that said, you are pointing out 1 example in more than 8 years. And he has more TV time than ANY wrestler over those 8 years. AND, i was strictly pointing out his matches are uncaptivating (though i can easily argue every facet of his person a is not attention grabbing either)

I would love to see how many of Cena's one-on-one ppv matches were rated highest for that night. I can't imagine it would be above 10%.