The "off the top" rule

[The Boss]

I was watching some old Mid-South/UWF and reliving some old memories and remembering good times. I saw a lot of my favorite stars, matches and feuds while even discovering a few that I either missed or forgot about.

But I was also reminded of one key factor that I didn't like about that territory, the rule that prevented wrestlers from jumping off the top rope. Now many territories had a rule that you couldn't throw anyone over the top rop to the floor, but Bill Watt's territory was the only one I can remember that prevented wrestlers from jumping off of the top. As a fan of guys like Jimmy "Superfly" Snuka, Randy "Macho Man" Savage and others, I was used to seeing guys flying off of the top. It was part of the wrestling experience. Despite great stars and good matches, this rule was once of the reasons that I always saw Mid-South/UWF as an inferior territory.

Years later when the company was bought out by Jim Crockett Promotions, Bill Watts would eventually become booker of WCW. He resurrected the no off the top rule. In a promotion full of High Flyers like Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat, "Flyin'" Bryan Pillman, Brad Armstrong and others this didn't sit well and thankfully was eventually done away with.

What is your opinion about the no moves off of the top rope rule? Did it rearve a legitimate purpose or did it hinder the potential for entertainment?

 

[Papa Pillman]

What is your opinion about the no moves off of the top rope rule? Did it rearve a legitimate purpose or did it hinder the potential for entertainment?

My opinion is that Watts was a stubborn super old school promoter who had to have his own personal vision of what pro wrestling is shoved down everyone else's throats(not unlike what Jim Cornette would become).

The rule served absolutely no purpose. Watts was of the thinking that tope rope maneuvers were too likely to seriously injure the wrestler on the receiving end, despite the fact that moves from the top rope are no more inherently "dangerous" than 90% of any other moves performed in a wrestling match and in fact are much safer than many(for example Watts frequently encouraged big piledriver spots).

Even when he changed the "top rope rule" back in WCW, he still forbid wrestlers from executing a top rope knee drop to a downed opponent(something several talents in the company utilized, like Bobby Eaton and Rick Rude who Watts specifically singled out).

Obviously any move restriction hinders the potential for entertainment(I'm even against the banning of moves like piledrivers or chair headshots; if you have trained wrestlers ready and willing to take the moves), but banning something as broad as "any move performed off the the top rope" is crippling to wrestlers' freedom in a match. Especially at a time like when Watts took over WCW and you had many innovating high flyers pushing that part of pro wrestling and were even booking fly overs from the likes of a young Jushin Liger.

 

[rbv13]

I vaguely remember watching/following Mid-South/UWF back in the day but I do remember finding any rules pertaining to the top rope to be a complete turn off to whatever the product. The high flying dare devils of the time were an amazing spectacle for the majority of the viewers and brought a new edginess to the business. The “coming off the top” didn’t come into play as often as the “over the top toss” but both were easy outs for creative to protect a given talent.

Watts was about as old school as they came and he wanted his product to be as traditional and realistic as possible. Watts was so old school that if his talents were to get beaten up in a real life altercation, like in a bar fight, he would fire them with no questions asked. He has made jokes that had he been running the WWF when Shawn Michaels was beaten up in the ‘90s the world would have never known the Heart Break Kid because his ass would have been unemployed. When he brought this style to NWA/WCW I was just dumbfounded. They had all these exciting talent who were all grounded by the change in rules.

The biggest head scratcher for me growing up had to be the AWA reversing the decision between Hogan and Bockwinkel at Super Sunday. Hogan was supper hot as Hulk-a-mania was beginning to blossom. It was one of the liveliest crowds I remember seeing and they were one hundred percent behind Hulk. It seemed as if the “People’s Champion” of the time had fulfilled his destiny only to have the title taken away because in the heat of battle he tossed Bockwinkel over the top rope.

I will toss out one positive about the top rope rule. It did make Battle Royal matches that more interesting and marketable to the promotions. I love watching those old school Battle Royal matches.

 

[FromGlasgow]

Maybe I'm in the minority but I think its good to stand apart and differenciate between other companies with their own style and rules I also have great memories of watching that territory and I was young watching it and can't remember ever really noticing their top rope rule while I watched it, Having said that I did notice it in WCW and thought at the time it didn't make sense and seemed to limit a lot of potential top matches.

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

Watts was moronic.

Rules like the "Off the Top Rope" rule or the "Throw Over the Top Rope" rule were never designed to protect wrestlers. They were designed to cause disqualifications and allow heels to lose without taking pinfalls.

The fact that this ruined things for fans fell on deaf ears; the thinking of the time was that fans' anger would keep them coming back in the hopes of finally seeing the face triumph over the heel. As times progressed, suddenly fans weren't coming back at all.

 

[The Boss]

Maybe I'm in the minority but I think its good to stand apart and differenciate between other companies with their own style and rules I also have great memories of watching that territory and I was young watching it and can't remember ever really noticing their top rope rule while I watched it, Having said that I did notice it in WCW and thought at the time it didn't make sense and seemed to limit a lot of potential top matches.

Fortunately most of the Mid-South talent (Jake Roberts, Junkyard Dog, Hacksaw Duggan, Butch Reed, The One Man Gang, The Fabulous Freebirds, "Dr. Death" Steve Williams and even Ted DiBiase) were not high flyers to begin with so it was not as noticeable. However when guys like the Rock 'n' Roll Express came through the territory it was much more noticeable. Actually the thing that often reminded me of it the most was Jim Ross constantly mentioning whenever someone would start to climb the rope, or perform a top rope move when the ref was out.

 

[Headman]

When Watts announced the new rule in WCW i thought it was ridiculous. But looking back I noticed something. High flyers didn't stop using their top rope finishers. The fans reactions actually got bigger during the time the rule was in place. In the end, no harm done. Of course back then high flyers weren't the type of spot monkeys we're used to today. Brian Pillman, Ricky Steamboat, Jushin Thunder Liger, those guys could all wrestle. So Watts wants to add a rule that he feels makes it seem like a more legit sport. So what? He didn't hurt anything.

 

[mral82]

If your talking bout the Top Rope Rule where you have a 5 count before you get DQ'd that rule is still in effect in all Pro Wrestling still but they get more leadway w/ it now. As far as the Ol' School Throwing an opponent "OVER THE TOP ROPE" get's you DQ'd that was Redonkuless as Champs still lost their Titles that way as it was an Ol NWA/AWA/Indies Rule.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Bill Watts had a great old school mind for professional wrestling. However, I think a major problem that Watts had was the same problem most of his contemporaries had: he was too single minded in his belief that his way was the best way and was unwilling to change with the times. I'm not necessarily saying all of his ideas were wrong exactly, though some of them clearly were, but I think most were just plain outdated and didn't work with modern audiences. By the mid 80s and into the 90s, pro wrestling wasn't really this fringe, underground market that it had been back in Watts' day. You weren't restricted to a certain geographical territory and weren't wrestling in front of the same fans month after month.

For instance, Watts was insistent on wrestlers not breaking kayfabe, he absolutely hates smart wrestling fans to such a degree that he would revamp booking plans in order to protect the business from smart fans, even to a financial detriment. Now, I dig the fact that some wrestlers try to protect the business because I grew up when wrestling still had mystique about it. However, at the same time, there's suspension of disbelief and there's downright insulting people's intelligence by expecting them to buy into the notion that everything they're seeing is real. I think there's a fine line between promoters respecting the fans and fans respecting the business only, nowadays especially, I think there are too many fans who don't really respect the business and feel that it's decisions should be catered to their immediate whims.

Watts got started as a booker in the late 70s when he bought the NWA Tri-State promotion from Leroy McGuirk and renamed it the Mid-South Wrestling Association. He had a great mind and his style was great for the time, but the time was coming to a close. Watts preferred poorly lit arenas and for the product to have a grungy sort of feel about it. He tried to bring that same mentality to WCW in the early 90s by taking them to poorly lit arenas in small towns that didn't bring in much money. If Watts had been born maybe 20 years sooner than he was and took and was booking in the 50s, 60s & 70s, he'd have flat out excelled and his company may have had THE promotion to work for in the United States for decades.

 

[FlairFan2003]

Watts did not book the NWA during the Crocketts time. Watts was brought in a few years after Crockett had already sold to Ted Turner and was no longer involved in any major way.

The NWA main itself never had such a rule. You had tag teams like The Midnight Express & Rock & Roll Express with several off the top rope moves, Tully Blanchard & Arn Anderson would do a modified version of Ron Garvin's off the top rope sunset flip, The Road Warriors main finisher was an off the top rope clothesline, Harley Race used his off the top rope head butt, and of course Ric Flair routinely did off the top spots, either being thrown across the ring or delivering flying body presses and/or flying axe handles.

Watts came into the new non Crockett WCW a few years after the sale, in the early 90s I believe when WCW was on it's last legs with most of the big name talent other than Sting having already defected to WWE. He didn't last long. However, Mid South was very successful for a long time and produced many brutal, bloody, matches as their trademark, and numerous big time stars of 80s & 90s cut their teeth there.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

If your talking bout the Top Rope Rule where you have a 5 count before you get DQ'd that rule is still in effect in all Pro Wrestling still but they get more leadway w/ it now. As far as the Ol' School Throwing an opponent "OVER THE TOP ROPE" get's you DQ'd that was Redonkuless as Champs still lost their Titles that way as it was an Ol NWA/AWA/Indies Rule.

He's talking about the rule in the older territories where jumping off the top turnbuckle was a DQ in Mid-South Wrestling.

And no, it didn't hinder the progression of the promotion at all. Most of his workers weren't high flyers anyway... guys like Butch Reed, Ted Dibiase, and Dick Murdoch were brawlers that had a great ground game and had no need to jump off the turnbuckle.

So I don't think this was much of a big deal in hindsight... but a lot of Watts' old-school mentality would become his detriment and end up costing him jobs in other promotions.

 

[The Boss]

And no, it didn't hinder the progression of the promotion at all. Most of his workers weren't high flyers anyway... guys like Butch Reed, Ted Dibiase, and Dick Murdoch were brawlers that had a great ground game and had no need to jump off the turnbuckle.

That's is my general thinking as well. They had the right guys you still put on great events. Still however, I wonder it it could have been MORE without that rule. He was clearly successful and he was trying to make the move to a national expansion (which brings up another topic that I might save for another thread). But when it failed I often wondered if this was part of the reason. After all that was an attraction of the sport that he was negating.