The Obscure Subjects Of WZ: ROH

[ABMorales787]

It seems people around here just simply make threads for the sake of beating stupid topics to death. "Someone Kill TNA!", "Turn Cena Heel", "Here's How I Would Book Things". Shut the hell up. How about talking about something interesting? How about.... ROH?

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Ring Of Honor debuted in mid-2002 before TNA did and have secured their spot as the 3rd biggest promotion in the U.S. Whether it's the largest indie promotion or a small major promotion. Fact remains that along with TNA they've lived longer than ECW and WCW.

Their recent actions have spurred the interest of forum goers here, but they stay in the Spam zone. Shame too, because there's plenty of topics coming from them. For one, their use of PPV's. They're quite prominent with them. 2013 clocks at 24 supercard events held as iPPV/PPV's and 2014 already has 12 without reaching half the year yet. That's big for them right now as WWE and TNA both are having rough times with PPV. Their upcoming Best In The World PPV will be their first live full blown PPV event. They've essentially got the wrestling PPV market falling in their favor now.

Their booking of talent isn't something I'm too keen on though. For one, how they managed to get headlining matches for all these PPV's. They've piled up #1 Contenders by the wazoo to challenge World Champ, Adam Cole. But that keeps people, at least in my eyes, from having any proper investment on the main event level wrestlers besides Adam Cole. Challengers consistently rotate as each event passes. Once Cole losses the title, it might as well be the same cycle again.

Those are just a few things worth discussing about ROH. There's plenty more things, but those can be and should be left for more threads worth being made.

 

[klunderbunker]

ROH is WAY better than it was just a few years ago. The roster is different, the wrestling is usually pretty good, the women are almost all hot, the Briscos are freaking insane, and RD Evans is hysterical. There's definitely something to be seen there and their Supercard of Honor VIII show was rather entertaining. It was cheap too (I think $30 for general admission) and you got some fast paced stuff.

It's not for everyone as their glorified indy style still drives me crazy a lot of the time, but there's stuff going on there that is going to be entertaining if you stop thinking about it so much. Cole is getting better, but he still needs a bit more for me.

Overall ROH is worth checking out if you can find it (it's available on their website) and want something actually different than WWE and TNA and focused on the in ring action.

 

[Rayne]

Their recent actions have spurred the interest of forum goers here, but they stay in the Spam zone. Shame too, because there's plenty of topics coming from them. For one, their use of PPV's. They're quite prominent with them. 2013 clocks at 24 supercard events held as iPPV/PPV's and 2014 already has 12 without reaching half the year yet. That's big for them right now as WWE and TNA both are having rough times with PPV. Their upcoming Best In The World PPV will be their first live full blown PPV event. They've essentially got the wrestling PPV market falling in their favor now.

I'm on the "hey, ROH is looking better these days" train, but I wouldn't say the PPV market is falling in their favor- it's more like the cable PPV market is cratering around them. Asking people to spend $20-$60 for three hours of television is a pretty damned tough sell these days when you can get just about anything on subscription for $8-$12 a month, in an era where cable television subscribers are going to internet-only plans.

ROH getting on cable PPV is big for them; it's a milestone on the way to being a Big Boy Company that people are familiar with, but it's becoming less and less relevant as a distribution mechanism. The WWE isn't losing ground; they're giving up ground they're no longer as interested in. TNA promoted Magnus vs. Eric Young as the main event of their last pay-per-view, so we see where their heart is. ROH ends up as the last man standing, winning a prize that feels good to have, but the value of running a PPV for ROH is for them to say they've ran a PPV, as opposed to adjusting their distribution system.

All in all ROH is making the right moves to position themselves long-term. It's a different product than it was a few years ago, but it's changed so gradually that they haven't alienated most of their fan base. (HI, TNA!)



On the less Rayne-Business-Post side of things? If you're a person who says you watch TNA because it's an alternative to the WWE, and hate when people call TNA "WWE-lite", watch ROH. The match pacing is entirely different. The crowds are either enthusiastic or they don't give a shit, which is good- when everyone gets canned heat/applause, you don't notice the applause for the people who are actually getting it. Michael Elgin is one of the best things ROH has going, and they're clearly building him up for an eventual title run. Think Taz before Taz got all crippled and slow. This is coming from a guy who's been pretty much tuned out of professional wrestling for the last couple years, and kinda 'meh' about it for the last ten.

One big distraction for me- every match ends with the participants becoming supermen. This happens about half a dozen times in the build to the finish for every match- the performers exchange extremely high-impact, absolutely sick looking maneuvers which look like they'd instantly kill anyone they hit, the person hit with them kicks out at 2 1/2, they get up, there's a reversal, and then another sick looking move, followed by 2 1/2. Eventually, someone hits a finisher, which never looks anywhere near as devastating as the moves which precedes it, and the match is over. If it's a tag match, someone is kicking out of another wrestler's singles finisher. This is a pretty minor point, but crazy finishes have a way of escalating until New Jack's being flown in and paid five figures to throw himself off balconies and half the locker room and three refs are required to resolve most matches.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

I'm on the "hey, ROH is looking better these days" train, but I wouldn't say the PPV market is falling in their favor- it's more like the cable PPV market is cratering around them.

I'm not actually against what you said, I agree with most of it (odd, I know), but it's extremely interesting you said this as I just read Meltzer's newsletter, and guess what?

While Sinclair Broadcasting aren't releasing figures for the recent iPPV's, I've asked a very good source within the company what's the word going around and he said that the Global Wars iPPV met expectations but that the War of the Worlds show on 5/17 pretty much exceeded it, and that it's now by a good distance ROH's highest selling iPPV.

PPV is going to be a totally different kettle of fish, I get that. ROH are charging $25 for standard definition and HD will be left to whatever cable/satellite provider you have, which compared to TNA's prices for what you get in return and to WWE's old PPV prices prior to the network, is great value. And the difference is this isn't going to be just another ROH show. If Court Bauer says something is happening then it's happening, and he's saying a lot of people will hardly recognize ROH because they're putting a lot into improving the production side of things, something they've already done a good deal of this year.

 

[Rayne]

I'm not actually against what you said, I agree with most of it (odd, I know), but it's extremely interesting you said this as I just read Meltzer's newsletter, and guess what?

PPV is going to be a totally different kettle of fish, I get that. ROH are charging $25 for standard definition and HD will be left to whatever cable/satellite provider you have, which compared to TNA's prices for what you get in return and to WWE's old PPV prices prior to the network, is great value. And the difference is this isn't going to be just another ROH show. If Court Bauer says something is happening then it's happening, and he's saying a lot of people will hardly recognize ROH because they're putting a lot into improving the production side of things, something they've already done a good deal of this year.

Eh. I'm used to people disagreeing violently with what I have to say, then realizing I had a point all along a few months down the line. Meltzer's newsletter used to be a valid form of information, in the mid-90s, but hasn't really been relevant in ever. He's still a fan, though, and if there's anything TNA can teach us, it's that you can totally trust the #1 fanboi of a company to have completely accurate information regarding their business strategy.

That being said.

$25 is a great value.... compared to what? For the same price, someone can get two and a half months of the WWE Network. It's a 'great value' if you're already heavily invested into the product enough that you were going to spend what you were told. It's low enough to attract a few casual buys. $25 is a great value for a PPV.... in 1999. Nowadays, that's two months of Netflix. I can get the ROH PPV the day after it airs on BitTorrent. How is $25 now compared to free twelve hours later a 'great value'? (Spare me any moralizing- when people stop downloading illegally free of any consequence, we'll reevaluate the value comparison.)

That's why this whole PPV thing is unsustainable. Professional wrestling, up until a few years ago, was based on getting a decent sized amount of whales to fork over $30 a month for eight shitty pay-per-views per year, two OK ones, and two good ones. (UFC still manages to make this work somehow, and if you think professional wrestling companies have tried to pass off Absolute Shit at a high price point, you've never seen Frank Mir and Cheick Kongo hug it out for fourteen minutes in a main event while talking and smiling the whole time. Even the UFC, the current PPV Big Boy, is facing declining PPV numbers.) ROH is too small of a company, just beginning to use a distribution system that's losing its relevance. ROH skews very heavy towards the 18-30 audience; are you telling me that group of people doesn't understand torrenting, and that they're all going to be company loyal enough to pay $25 for something instead of getting it for free?

You're going to have a great time watching it, and we can pretty much guarantee that you'll be here the next morning telling us what a wild success it was and how we have to trust you because you wrote fan fic for them a few years ago. That aside- ROH won't be on cable PPV for long, because the whole point of cable PPV is disappearing.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

I really don't want to make this into another back and forth, "I like ROH and stay positive and realistic about things" and, "you're negative and will tell me whatever I say is wrong" discussion, we've had them before on countless topics, ROH and otherwise.

What I will say to you is this - last year you sent me a PM talking about how ROH was "dying", a "shell of its former self" and never "really sold-out the Hammerstein". In 2014, not only has ROH sold-out the Hammerstein, but they've sold out so many events that they have the highest average attendance this year for any wrestling company in America apart from WWE, which means it is beating its main competition, which is TNA. It certainly isn't dying, total opposite, flourishing would be the word, growing would be another. I am sort of pleased you responded half positively in this thread to the topic, but I conclude with this.

I was right about ROH last year when I said it had finally hit the tracks running as a TV company. I was right when I said interest was growing, because if it hadn't they wouldn't be getting the attendances they're getting, and I'm not talking about just the NJPW shows, but before that too their lowest attendance for this year is 800 which is what TNA is hoping to get each night for their TV taping. I was right about Sinclair finally investing some proper money into the company, when you told me they didn't give a shit. It's obvious they care, if they didn't they wouldn't have gone to bat to get that PPV deal as the estimated number of buys they need to break even is 10,000. I don't think they'll get it for Best In The World, but I see BITW as the launching point into a higher level.

PPV isn't dead. It's dying. But it's not dead. If Bellator can draw 65,000 PPV buys, and I am looking at BitTorrent right now and that show is up here, then ROH can draw a solid number for their first live PPV. Why? It has something Bellator doesn't, it has several things in fact, it has momentum, it's getting peoples attention and it's interesting. Not to mention - and I said this months and months ago to you - it's providing the only true alternative to the WWE that there is. It's growing at TNA's expense.

I'm not going to say the PPV deal will be a huge success, it won't - if it is I'll comeback here and say I shouldn't have doubted it, but I see myself as a realist and I know it's an uphill battle - but I do think it's what they need to do to go to the next level. It makes things bigger, it makes things much more easily accessible, and as WrestleMania proved when more people watched it on PPV then on the network - we're in a modern era, but not as modern as everyone likes to make out we are. People still want to sit on their couches and watch a PPV. $25.00 isn't a lot of money, and if they want it cheaper, ROH is doing it as a simulcast on uStream for $15.00, but I guarantee - and quote me on this - ROH's first live PPV will draw more on PPV, then on iPPV. Why? Because people are going to buy it for the history that's in it, as well as what they're getting from the product.

 

[Rayne]

Yeah, I said they were dying because I was trolling you, because trolling you about ROH is a board past-time here. You had been saying something about ROH filling arenas with 10,000 people, which turned into selling out the Hammerstein, which turned into almost selling out the Hammerstein, demonstrated with a picture of the Hammerstein with a tarped off upper deck and a quarter of the arena taking a piss. You have to be a bit understanding when people screw with you when you go into ROH Master Plan mode.

ROH has never been 'dying'. Until recently, they were condemned to a #3 spot, and while they're still the #3 promotion, #2 is looking very vulnerable and likely won't be around in a couple of years. They have a chance right now that hasn't existed for the past several years.

Don't overestimate Sinclair's investment into ROH. No, they haven't been investing 'decent money' into ROH, and if they have been, someone's skimming off the top. What they have been doing is investing the right amount of money, to work on the things that have needed work in ROH; namely, producing a quality looking television show without copying WWE-style glitz. One thing that is entirely different, almost invisible to the end user, and yet totally changes the product has been the camera work. Wide-angle shots are minimized, and the cameramen have learned to frame moves properly. Those are the important changes to ROH; slow, steady ones that improve the product without changing it fundamentally. We won't see "The Nature Boy" AJ Styles, unless someone's playing a gag.

Sinclair's interest in ROH continues to be to fill a spot on an underdeveloped satellite network, not the development of a professional wrestling company. That has not changed. That's going to be a brake on ROH's growth, which is a Good Thing. Sinclair isn't interested in turning ROH into a profit center, they want ROH to be a reason people demand Sinclair programming in their area. To a degree their goals are mutual, but not entirely.

Your enthusiasm is a bit warranted- ROH finally has the chance for growth that they haven't had for the past several years- but for the love of all things holy, and I think I can speak for a lot of other people here when I say this, no one wants to put up with your 'well you have your opinion, but I'm their biggest fan, so...' routine while ROH finally gets their chance to shine.

And, duh, of course their next PPV will beat all their previous numbers. That's like saying WrestleMania will outsell Money In The Bank, or Eric Bischoff saying that Impact beat its lead-in by 300%. It's a big deal for them and they're promoting the hell out of it.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

Yeah, I said they were dying because I was trolling you, because trolling you about ROH is a board past-time here.

I recall you sending me a personal message asking you for a picture, which I produced of ROH's sold-out show in the Hammerstein at Supercard of Honor VII.

You had been saying something about ROH filling arenas with 10,000 people

Nope, over the course of four events last summer ROH equated 10,000, those four events happened in a five week span, which last year was a big thing for ROH because they were rectifying mistakes left to them by Jim Cornette. They were the ROH TV taping, All Star Extravaganza, Manhattan Mayhem V and Death Before Dishonor. Your problem is you don't like reading.

which turned into selling out the Hammerstein

Which they did last year, Supercard of Honor VII.

which turned into almost selling out the Hammerstein

Which they did last year, Manhattan Mayhem V.

demonstrated with a picture of the Hammerstein with a tarped off upper deck and a quarter of the arena taking a piss.

I can't find it, but I remember the picture I showed you. It was midway through the Jay Briscoe vs. Kevin Steen ROH World title match in the Hammerstein at Supercard of Honor VII. That show was sold-out. Like how War of the Worlds was sold-out.

You have to be a bit understanding when people screw with you when you go into ROH Master Plan mode.

There is no master plan mode. I see things for what they really are, I knew ROH was picking up pace the same way I knew ROH was shit in 2011 and I often admitted it week to week, it was horrible, not TNA levels of horrible but still pretty horrible. But times change, people are fired, people are hired, decisions are made and I saw last year from when they ended the SCUM angle that things were going to improve. That improvement was bolstered by guys like AJ Styles and Chris Hero returning, good booking, well done events and the NJPW working relationship, which has now created the momentum that the product has, and yes while it is due to TNA's lack of... anything, it's also to ROH's credit, as they're still the smaller promotion, but just happen to be doing just about everything that matters better.

 

[Lowdown]

I watch ROH TV every week, and it rarely disappoints. Like most iny promotions it's a nice alternative to WWE and TNA. Quie a few of my faves have since moved on like Kenny King, but you still have guys like Steen, Elgin, Cole, and the Briscoes that can perform with the best of them. Doing shows like Global Wars is a treat in itself in joint efforts with New Japan.