The fate of a Quaternion, What made the difference?

[AegonTargaryen]

In the year 2004, Raw had the most promising echelon of established and potential superstars (In the brand extension era) . Four of them were Randy Orton, Batista, Edge, Chris Jericho. With the exception of Jericho(first undisputed champion), and yet including him, all four waited to be the champion and lead their respective brand in the future as champion. Jericho was 33, Edge was 30, Batista was 35, Orton was 24. With the exception of Orton, all of them shared an age group.

Throughout Raw in 2004, Edge wrestled Batista and Chris Jericho, and also feuded with Orton for the intercontinental title. When Randy Orton became the youngest world heavyweight champion at Summerslam, these three wrestled for the Intercontinental Championship.

Edge and Chris Jericho had wrestled for 5-7 years before either of Randy Orton and Batista laced the boots and wrestled on Raw. Both were excellent performers in the mid-card, both had spent years training and perfecting their art, though Chris Jericho is the one with far wider an experience(ECW, WCW, Mexico, Japan). Nonetheless, they represented, and still did until 2010, a "dying breed of performers" who lived it, breathed it, slept it, and had seen many come and leave during their extensive tenures. Both specialized in a wide range of matches and wrestled excellent technical matches with the best in the business (Flair, Guerrero , Angle, Shawn Michaels, Benoit) and funnily, both shared a tag-team partner in Christian. The most amazing tag-team, IC title, and money in the bank Ladder matches feature Edge and Chris Jericho. They've both had storied, unsurpassed and exclusive rivalries. Whereas Jericho did with Shawn Michaels, Edge had his with The Undertaker, Eddie Guerrero and Kurt Angle(something Jericho will never be able to boast of, sadly due to being on different brands and the opportunity or storyline for a big feud with them never happening. Sadly, we'll never get to see a series of pay-per-view classics between Jericho and Angle or Jericho and Guerrero, but I digress). They were both a part of the best 5 wrestlers from the Ruthless Aggression(Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero and themselves).

Randy Orton and Batista were handpicked to be mentored by Ric Flair and HHH in evolution. Both are considered(largely and justifiably) to be unidimensional and often stale and boring, and have wrestled a large chunk(especially Batista) only for the WHC or WWE titles. As of 2014, Batista has returned after a 4-year absence, won the royal rumble and will in all likelihood face Randy Orton for the WWE WHC, though both of them have formerly battled for both WHC and the WWE championship for about a dozen times on pay per view and television.

IMO, Chris Jericho and Edge were far superior performers in terms of charisma, in-ring work, promo work and mic skills, best feuds, best mid-card matches, speciality matches(Ladder, Cage, Chamber), Diversity of opponents(from Rey Mysterio to Kurt Angle to The Undertaker). However, never in a single-heavyweight-championship era would they have been given the same importance, spotlight, or benefit as Randy Orton and Batista have frequently been given. Why is it so? What are your opinions?

Do you think they're better? Would you rather see Edge vs Jericho for the WWE WHC(fancy an Edge comeback in 2014, or something)?

Were their rivalries and matches superior to what we've seen from Batista and Randy Orton's careers?

Are they irreplaceable from the handful few of the dying breed(or almost dead) which will never be returned?

Would you have booked them differently on Raw in 2004 and 2005?

Or do you feel Orton and Batista are deserving of a main event match at WM30? (with such a terrible build-up and even worse fan reaction and response) ?

What role did Batista and Orton's stature and physique play in allowing them to be main-eventers throughout their careers despite being limited in the ring(especially in Batista's case), in promos, in diversity of performers they had excellent matches with, etc.

Do you think Edge and/or Chris Jericho would've been given many more main-events and spotlight too, had they had a bigger physique? Do you think the reason why Edge even won so many titles(9 times between 2006-2009 alone) had it not been for his excellence in "other-factors" such as appeal, attractiveness(long hair), Rated-R gimmick , and stature(6 ft 5) whereas Jericho largely spent most of his WWE career battling mid-carders and being Tag-team and IC champion?

 

[Marshyishere]

I have no doubt in my mind the Edge & Jericho are better in all facets than Batista and Orton. Several factors have lead to the bookings of these stars, which unfortunately has favoured Orton & Batista more.

Jericho's size has always been his downfall. Although he is great in the ring and on the mic, he has never had the build to sit at the top constantly.

Edge would have been at the top for several more years, had he not had his career ending injuries.

Orton was handpicked for his looks, size, ability and young age. He has been in the business for over 10 years now. WWE has definitely got their worth out of him, no matter how much some people may not like him.

Batista has always had the look and the physicality. The only other wrestler in the WWE that has matched this to date was Lesnar and that means a lot. Size and looks are a huge part of why he made it so far, as we know his ability is nothing special.

I think Orton & Batista COULD have had an amazing Wrestlemania match, unfortunately the build-up has been poor and due to that it will most likely be changed to prevent the match from becoming a boo-fest.

 

[TheOneAndOnlyGOAT]

I think both Jericho and Edge are far superior than Batista and Orton.

Jericho is in my top 10 G.O.A.Ts list. And while I've always been a huge Edge fan, I didn't really realize how important he was until he retired.

The reason why Orton and Batista were pushed ahead of edge and jericho is simple.
It's because of Triple H. Hunter saw Batista as the next huge star and labeled Orton as the next "Shawn Michaels".

That's why so many people are mad at the whole Daniel Bryan situation, Triple H thinks he knows what the people want more than the people himself.

Everything goes the way Hunter wants. After Vince dies, HHH will take over and will completely ruin this company. He'll put all the titles on him and do whatever he wants.
He's already bringing all of his old friends.

He brought Kevin Nash back at the rumble, Shawn Michaels is there every year involved in major storylines (HHH's feud with Lesnar, Authority vs Bryan...), The New Age Outlaws are the tag team champs, Ric Flair recently signed a contract with WWE, and now Batista and Orton will be main eventing WrestleMania.


I guess with Batista-Orton main eventing WMXXX, HHH can pride himself for making this happen. The "Evolution" cycle has been completed smh.



WWE, with HHH taking over, has no future.

 

[shooter_mcgavin]

Look is also a factor the other being Orton and Batista was handpicked by Triple H, with you have Hunter backing you up you are going to get all the opportunities in the world to get over. Of course it's not always guaranteed you will get to the top, ask Drew McIntyre, but you are going to get more opportunities than anyone if Triple H is high on you especially when his influence for more than a decade.

I think that's the difference maker that Edge and Chris Jericho didn't have. My understanding is that Triple H was never that keen on Edge and Jericho. Triple H buried Jericho back in 2002 after their WMX8 match and I did hear rumors that Edge was actually glad to be moved to Smackdown! back in 2007 because of his issues with Triple H.

Even look at Royal Rumble 2012 and 2014. Jericho and Batista returned to the WWE respectively before the Rumble. However Jericho did not win the rumble and opted to give the win to Sheamus (another buddy of Triple H) even though Jericho needed to win the Rumble to become a threat to Punk's WWE Title. You can give any justification in why Jericho didn't win the Rumble (perhaps it's because he was a part timer, or because they didn't want to be predictable) but all that reason was negated when Batista won it recently. So yeah it helps to be Triple H's friend.

Personally though I find Randy Orton and Edge pretty equal in terms of their ability but leaning towards more on Edge. While Orton does a better job in working methodical matches more, Edge is more flexible in all other kinds of matches. Edge is also better in the mic though I always found both to be above average in that department at best (Even in the E&C days Christian in the one that carried most of the promo work). Orton also works best as one type of character so while he's great at being a serious heel, Edge is more versatile in the angles he can do.

Batista is ok. Decent face, good heel and is actually a bit more versatile than Orton.

Though I have to say Jericho is actually the best overall between the four and has been the most adaptive in creating his character. The only short coming Jericho had was really politics, Triple H stunted his growth during 2002 to 2004 when both were on RAW. I honestly believe that the Jericho and Shawn Michaels feud was supposed to continue on longer after WMXIX but was stopped because Triple H wanted Shawn Michaels to work with his Evolution stable and with the returning Kevin Nash. It's no coincidence that the time Jericho was put higher on the card was when Triple H was taking a time off (2005, Summerslam) or when Triple H and Jericho were in different shows (2008).

 

[AegonTargaryen]

I think both Jericho and Edge are far superior than Batista and Orton.

Jericho is in my top 10 G.O.A.Ts list. And while I've always been a huge Edge fan, I didn't really realize how important he was until he retired.

The reason why Orton and Batista were pushed ahead of edge and jericho is simple.
It's because of Triple H. Hunter saw Batista as the next huge star and labeled Orton as the next "Shawn Michaels".

That's why so many people are mad at the whole Daniel Bryan situation, Triple H thinks he knows what the people want more than the people himself.

Everything goes the way Hunter wants. After Vince dies, HHH will take over and will completely ruin this company. He'll put all the titles on him and do whatever he wants.
He's already bringing all of his old friends.

He brought Kevin Nash back at the rumble, Shawn Michaels is there every year involved in major storylines (HHH's feud with Lesnar, Authority vs Bryan...), The New Age Outlaws are the tag team champs, Ric Flair recently signed a contract with WWE, and now Batista and Orton will be main eventing WrestleMania.


I guess with Batista-Orton main eventing WMXXX, HHH can pride himself for making this happen. The "Evolution" cycle has been completed smh.



WWE, with HHH taking over, has no future.

I agree with you entirely. I think it's largely due to HHH's backstage influence and politics(obviously due to being married to the Boss's daughter which usually is a HUGE factor in any company, if you're banging the boss's daughter, you'd be pushed in the company's hierarchy, sometimes even over far more talented or deserving employees).

That is the sole reason why Edge or Chris Jericho were never able to win the WHC despite being immensely talented. Raw was all about HHH and evolution day in and day out. It was like the WWE version of the NWO, only with 4 stars instead of 40-80 and wasn't an idiotic and protracted angle like the NWO(Goddamn dozens of members?) The only person who managed to really become and stay champion for long during the evolution era was Chris Benoit. Goldberg was hardly champion for 2 months before dropping it to HHH .

I also agree with the Daniel Bryan side of things. I would've loved Chris Jericho as WHC in during 2002-2005(which never did happen). I'm not a huge Daniel Bryan mark/fan yet, but I think Bryan is just that same guy(which was Chris Jericho in the 2002-2005 period) stuck and held down due to his size but keeps getting over(The chants, among other things), and at this point, despite my slightly disliking his character, I would want him to be featured in main-events instead of the same-old HHH buddies. And John Cena shouldn't even be in a championship match for the next 2 years.
It is not hard to fathom that what Chris Jericho was in the 2000s (always subservient to bigger guys like HHH, Batista, Orton), Daniel Bryan will be in 2010s
when Sheamus, Roman Reigns, Randy Orton, Batista and Brock Lesnar will be pushed, especially now that there's only one heavyweight title.

No matter how many might speak in favour HHH, your opinions of him are entirely true and justified. HHH will ruin the company because that's just what a person like him does. I think Ken Anderson/Kennedy would've been a believable champion (on raw or SD) but got buried by HHH to Vince(Ken mimicked HHH after winning the TNA WHC in 2010), And also due to the Orton incidence. And the countless persons HHH might 've buried otherwise till now.

 

[AegonTargaryen]

Look is also a factor the other being Orton and Batista was handpicked by Triple H, with you have Hunter backing you up you are going to get all the opportunities in the world to get over. Of course it's not always guaranteed you will get to the top, ask Drew McIntyre, but you are going to get more opportunities than anyone if Triple H is high on you especially when his influence for more than a decade.

I think that's the difference maker that Edge and Chris Jericho didn't have. My understanding is that Triple H was never that keen on Edge and Jericho. Triple H buried Jericho back in 2002 after their WMX8 match and I did hear rumors that Edge was actually glad to be moved to Smackdown! back in 2007 because of his issues with Triple H.

Even look at Royal Rumble 2012 and 2014. Jericho and Batista returned to the WWE respectively before the Rumble. However Jericho did not win the rumble and opted to give the win to Sheamus (another buddy of Triple H) even though Jericho needed to win the Rumble to become a threat to Punk's WWE Title. You can give any justification in why Jericho didn't win the Rumble (perhaps it's because he was a part timer, or because they didn't want to be predictable) but all that reason was negated when Batista won it recently. So yeah it helps to be Triple H's friend.

Personally though I find Randy Orton and Edge pretty equal in terms of their ability but leaning towards more on Edge. While Orton does a better job in working methodical matches more, Edge is more flexible in all other kinds of matches. Edge is also better in the mic though I always found both to be above average in that department at best (Even in the E&C days Christian in the one that carried most of the promo work). Orton also works best as one type of character so while he's great at being a serious heel, Edge is more versatile in the angles he can do.

Batista is ok. Decent face, good heel and is actually a bit more versatile than Orton.

Though I have to say Jericho is actually the best overall between the four and has been the most adaptive in creating his character. The only short coming Jericho had was really politics, Triple H stunted his growth during 2002 to 2004 when both were on RAW. I honestly believe that the Jericho and Shawn Michaels feud was supposed to continue on longer after WMXIX but was stopped because Triple H wanted Shawn Michaels to work with his Evolution stable and with the returning Kevin Nash. It's no coincidence that the time Jericho was put higher on the card was when Triple H was taking a time off (2005, Summerslam) or when Triple H and Jericho were in different shows (2008).

That was enlightening! Not to be a hater, but HHH really has been, is, and most likely for a long time be a backstabbing egotistical and envious hypocrite who'll envy you if you ever have a better match on a pay-per-view or tv than him(Enter Jericho). If what you said about Jericho being held back from 2002-2004 because of HHH is true, it makes him quite a contemptible miscreant. Not to mention the fine distinction you made about Sheamus winning the rumble over Jericho in 2012(Really?Sheamus?) and now Batista. At this point, I wish the WWE universe would slap a thousand times on that egotistical big-nosed face of HHH by booing Randy Orton and Batista out of the building if they go one-on-one at WM XXX.

And as far as Batista and Orton, I think Randy Orton has been and is by and large, far more versatile than Dave. Intercontinental Champion , feud with Shawn Michaels, Legend Killer, Feud with Undertaker including HIAC(which I think is just equal to or slightly lesser in importance than Batista's feud with taker), Rated-RKO, more Legend Killer in 2007, rise to becoming WWE champion for the first time and being a Raw mainstay until his injury in 2008, his matches with HHH(half a dozen on pay-per-view) such as Steel Cage, 3 stages of hell and Last Man Standing have been far more entertaining(largely because face HHH matches have always gotten me more invested, and because of Orton's physique and style in contrast to HHH), Rise in 2009 with legacy and more matches with HHH, feud with John Cena(4 matches in a row) which have been far more entertaining(HIAC, Ironman, etc.) than Batista's against Cena. I think Randy Orton was largely unmotivated, complacent and boring to watch after 2009 ended. But he resurrected in 2013 to being the WWE WHC, etc .

Batista's career trajectory on the other hand can only be summed up in a line and hardly has much interesting stuff except for his 2007 feud with 'Taker and 2010 feud as hell against John Cena. He won the WHC from HHH, was the mainstay on SD, feuded with Edge, Rey Mysterio, etc. Spent 2008 on Raw, once again only fighting mostly for the WHC (except for his 2 non-title feuds with Shawn Michaels and John Cena which were short and not storied), 2009 was largely stale and boring so he turned heel, only to have a series of matches with John Cena and quit in May 2010. I don't think there's much versatility at all. I can't find many storied or entertaining Batista matches except for those with 'Taker in 2007. Apart from the main 'Taker feud on SD, all his championship defenses and matches were sort of lacklustre and not good enough to be the "main attraction". 2005- JBL, Eddie Guerrero(too much size difference). 2006-Ken Kennedy, Booker T. 2007-Edge, Khali. 2009-Rey Mysterio.

Based on these observations, it is obvious that Batista is not that great of a wrestler/worker as people think of would like to believe he is. The best and most enjoyable wrestling work from Batista only came from three of his Rivals and three of the greatest of all time- Randy Orton(whom he feuded with multiple times from 2005-2009), Undertaker(2007,2009), and John Cena(Summerslam 2008 which was a classic IMO, Elimination Chamber 2010, Wrestlemania 26, Extreme Rules, and another pay-per-view from May)

 

[shooter_mcgavin]

My reason why Batista is more versatile is that he can work both as a face and a heel. Sure he had some stumbles but compare his reaction when he turned face for the first time as opposed to Orton. Orton's initial face turn was seen as a failure while Batista was very over from late 2004 to all of 2005. Orton is a natural heel as such he's never had a face run that was memorable.

As far as angles Batista had some that required a lot more creativity on his part. The one I remember was the Shawn Michaels/Batista feud involving Ric Flair he was a heel but not really a heel and Batista worked that pretty well.

As for Eddie Guerrero it was hard to say how that would have turned out because Eddie passed away but, from the looks of it, I think it would have turned out to be a great feud. You can tell after No Mercy a lot was invested in this program and, for a brief period, Eddie/Batista worked well with each other making us question Eddie's true motives.

Orton's character and feuds is composed mostly as "I arrogant and I am better than you" ruthless type heel. I think in his entire WWE run since joining evolution that's the only character Orton had that worked. Whether he was "The Legend Killer", "The Viper", or "The Apex Predator" these characters are just minor tweaks and variations of each other.

The thing about Orton is that he's proven to be very good but not that great. I guess I already pointed out why some time ago. Part of it was that he was given a role to play since joining Evolution and stuck with it since. Batista was never groomed to be "the man" before Orton so he was given an Enforcer Role for Evolution I think this actually helped Batista more because since he didn't have a trajectory in 2004, unlike Orton, Batista could experiment on different angles and skits like working with Jericho, being Flair's tag team partner, and creating an elaborate scheme with Triple H to fool the crowd.

 

[AegonTargaryen]

My reason why Batista is more versatile is that he can work both as a face and a heel. Sure he had some stumbles but compare his reaction when he turned face for the first time as opposed to Orton. Orton's initial face turn was seen as a failure while Batista was very over from late 2004 to all of 2005. Orton is a natural heel as such he's never had a face run that was memorable.

As far as angles Batista had some that required a lot more creativity on his part. The one I remember was the Shawn Michaels/Batista feud involving Ric Flair he was a heel but not really a heel and Batista worked that pretty well.

As for Eddie Guerrero it was hard to say how that would have turned out because Eddie passed away but, from the looks of it, I think it would have turned out to be a great feud. You can tell after No Mercy a lot was invested in this program and, for a brief period, Eddie/Batista worked well with each other making us question Eddie's true motives.

Orton's character and feuds is composed mostly as "I arrogant and I am better than you" ruthless type heel. I think in his entire WWE run since joining evolution that's the only character Orton had that worked. Whether he was "The Legend Killer", "The Viper", or "The Apex Predator" these characters are just minor tweaks and variations of each other.

The thing about Orton is that he's proven to be very good but not that great. I guess I already pointed out why some time ago. Part of it was that he was given a role to play since joining Evolution and stuck with it since. Batista was never groomed to be "the man" before Orton so he was given an Enforcer Role for Evolution I think this actually helped Batista more because since he didn't have a trajectory in 2004, unlike Orton, Batista could experiment on different angles and skits like working with Jericho, being Flair's tag team partner, and creating an elaborate scheme with Triple H to fool the crowd.

I agree. I think Orton is largely likeable as a heel(if there're intriguing feuds/stories). The only memorable time when he was super over and popular as a Face was the period between his Excommunication from Evolution till till Survivor Series '04. He lost a lot of steam due to minor injuries, HHH winning over him, and overall abundance of talent at then. His Face work from 2010-2013 was largely uninspiring and boring. I suppose they were tired of him being a heel for 5 years and to freshen him up the face turn became mandatory(though it never quite worked)

Batista, on the other hand was equally effective/interesting as heel, and the only time he was a heel after his initial breakthrough was from Nov 2009-May 2010, hardly 6 months. But yeah , he was a believable champion as a face, and I still remember finding his SD feud with Guerrero very intriguing and amusing. And the one with Shawn.