Truly WWE matches have seen the ending of matches that have gotten the strongest reactions possible, whether it's approval or disapproval. So, what really makes you happy, or pisses you off, after seeing the ending of a match, more? Pinfall or Submission? True, we don't see much Submission victories anymore, but several of us can remember huge matches that ended in Submission. (Shaun Michaels vs Kurt Angle, WM 21.) At the same time, several iconic matches have ended in pinfall. So what's you preference to the ending of a match: Pinfall or Submission?
The Ending of a Match: Pinfall or Submission?
- Thread starter kingrko
- Start date
Personally, I don't think you can classify one ending as being all-round better than the other. Different people like different things, and of course, it also depends on the superstars involved. If it's Kurt Angle vs. Chris Jericho, I'm hoping for a submission, but if it's John Cena vs. Batista, it should by all rights be a pinfall. There are very few superstars who can go into a match and you don't know whether they'll win by pinfall or submission. Kurt Angle was really the only man who could keep you guessing, as he had the Ankle Lock and the Angle Slam. They have given John Cena the STFU, btu he mostly seems to end with the FU still (I think JBL is the only man to suffer the indignity of tapping out to John Cena this year, at Backlash), and they tried it with Brock Lesnar for a short while, with that Brocklock thing, but you mainly expected it to be the F-5 finishing off.
Right, that's the all-round answer out of the way, now for personal opinion. Solely for me, I think submission is more dramatic of a way to end a match. You don't know whether they'll tap or reach the ropes, and they can keep it going for so long, with the guy suffering the hold trying desperatly to reach the ropes, and his opponent dragging him back at the last moment. They can also use it to make it seem more real, so to speak, with the looks of pain you always see "etched across the face" of the superstar locked into the hold. The only thing that ruins the drama of a submission is that stupid over-the-top thing that has happened with Khali, and more recently Undertaker, the bleeding from the mouth skit. It's unnecessary, and it looks stupid. However, on the whole, I think submissions are more dramatic, and also give a straightforward ending. A pinfall can happen at any time with something as simple as a roll-up, but a wrestler being made to tap out, that's definetive. He gave up the match, it's over.
Right, that's the all-round answer out of the way, now for personal opinion. Solely for me, I think submission is more dramatic of a way to end a match. You don't know whether they'll tap or reach the ropes, and they can keep it going for so long, with the guy suffering the hold trying desperatly to reach the ropes, and his opponent dragging him back at the last moment. They can also use it to make it seem more real, so to speak, with the looks of pain you always see "etched across the face" of the superstar locked into the hold. The only thing that ruins the drama of a submission is that stupid over-the-top thing that has happened with Khali, and more recently Undertaker, the bleeding from the mouth skit. It's unnecessary, and it looks stupid. However, on the whole, I think submissions are more dramatic, and also give a straightforward ending. A pinfall can happen at any time with something as simple as a roll-up, but a wrestler being made to tap out, that's definetive. He gave up the match, it's over.
While I like a match ending by either pinfall or submission, I still prefer a match to end in pinfall. Call me old fashioned, but I think Pinfall is more traditional and more original than submission. A large majority of matches in the WWE are won by pinfall and ending a match by submission is a little rare nowadays.
Think about it, how would you like a Wrestlemania main event to end, by pinfall or submission? This years Wrestlemania 24 main event ending by submission and in my opinion, I would have preferred it ended by pinfall as I think the ending actually hurt that match. Look at the Shawn Michaels vs Ric Flair match at WM24. It ended very traditionally by pinfall after HBK superkicked The Naitch. If the Nature boy tapped out, it wouldn't have had the same effect on the match. The whole "Im sorry.. I love you" would not have worked if Ric tapped out.
I also prefer pinfalls, as they can come from any position and anytime. While, the same can be said for submissions, 95% of the time a superstar uses a resthold of some sort, we know the other wrestler aint going to tap out. As with roll up pinfalls, which can happen in every match, anytime and anywhere. With rollup pinfalls, you usually can't tell if a wrestler is going to stay down for the 3 count thus making the match more unpredictable and exciting.
Think about it, how would you like a Wrestlemania main event to end, by pinfall or submission? This years Wrestlemania 24 main event ending by submission and in my opinion, I would have preferred it ended by pinfall as I think the ending actually hurt that match. Look at the Shawn Michaels vs Ric Flair match at WM24. It ended very traditionally by pinfall after HBK superkicked The Naitch. If the Nature boy tapped out, it wouldn't have had the same effect on the match. The whole "Im sorry.. I love you" would not have worked if Ric tapped out.
I also prefer pinfalls, as they can come from any position and anytime. While, the same can be said for submissions, 95% of the time a superstar uses a resthold of some sort, we know the other wrestler aint going to tap out. As with roll up pinfalls, which can happen in every match, anytime and anywhere. With rollup pinfalls, you usually can't tell if a wrestler is going to stay down for the 3 count thus making the match more unpredictable and exciting.
simpsons_fanatic742
WZPC Intercontinental Champion
Wow this is a really hard choice. I can't really pick only one that is a better way to end match as they both bring different elements to the match. For the pin, I think it's the classic way to end a match. After an epic battle between two huge stars, one will hit their signature move and then go for the pin. If that person is the face and they drop down to cover the heel, the fans mark out huge and follow the 3 count with a huge chant and when the ref hits the ground for the 3rd time the crowd erupts and brings about a truly amazing response. The submission I think is reserved for wrestlers who are more likely to do it, like Chris Jericho or Kurt Angle. When the submission is locked in, the battle that ensues to get out of it and to keep it locked on it an amazing sight. The suspense it brings it awesome and always brings people out of their seats, waiting to see if they will tap, reverse it, or get to the ropes.
I think the pin gets a slight edge for me, but I think the submission brings a little more suspense.
I think the pin gets a slight edge for me, but I think the submission brings a little more suspense.
It simply depends on the Wrestler. it felt wierd watching Someone like, William Reagle, Chris Benoit etc. winning by Pinfall becouse their speciality is Submissions. It also feels wierd watching wrestlers like Edge, Triple H,etc. Win by Submission becouse it aint there strong suit. There has been an exception to that rule. Kurt angle, Bret Hart etc Could pull both off really well. It also depends on what kind of match it is. If it was a no DQ it would be wierd watching the Wrestler win with a submission unless he was to utilise the no ropebreak thing. I prefer submission wins most of the time but as i said, It depends on who is the Wrestler that is going to win.
AnthonyMango/NoFate007
A Post Is Worth A Thousand Words
It depends on the wrestlers, the feud, the event, and the purpose the match has.
For instance, if its a feud wherein the two people severely hate each other and its more of a grudge match, then I think after a long time, it should end with the face making the heel submit (unless the goal of the feud is to make the heel go over, in which case the heel should humiliate the face via submission).
If its a title match, especially at WrestleMania, and the face is going over, it needs to be a pinfall (unless of course the face's finisher is a submission). That just has more of an impact as the finale of a feud where a "new reign" will happen. Now, its cheapened if its like, "HHH loses the title to Orton, and then they have rematches for months, and then HHH wins it back, just to have another rematch at Backlash, and we're back to square one". But it made more of an *umph* when Michaels was able to pin Hart at WrestleMania 12, or when Austin pinned Michaels at WM14, and so forth.
Speaking in terms of a general match on the TV shows and such, though, I think they should end in a pinfall most of the time. I for one am SOOOOO tired of seeing everything end in a DQ just to try to extend the feud longer and "fool" the audience into thinking they haven't seen it a thousand times before.
For instance, if its a feud wherein the two people severely hate each other and its more of a grudge match, then I think after a long time, it should end with the face making the heel submit (unless the goal of the feud is to make the heel go over, in which case the heel should humiliate the face via submission).
If its a title match, especially at WrestleMania, and the face is going over, it needs to be a pinfall (unless of course the face's finisher is a submission). That just has more of an impact as the finale of a feud where a "new reign" will happen. Now, its cheapened if its like, "HHH loses the title to Orton, and then they have rematches for months, and then HHH wins it back, just to have another rematch at Backlash, and we're back to square one". But it made more of an *umph* when Michaels was able to pin Hart at WrestleMania 12, or when Austin pinned Michaels at WM14, and so forth.
Speaking in terms of a general match on the TV shows and such, though, I think they should end in a pinfall most of the time. I for one am SOOOOO tired of seeing everything end in a DQ just to try to extend the feud longer and "fool" the audience into thinking they haven't seen it a thousand times before.
Monkey_Mania
I Am The One Who Knocks
To me it depends on the match. If it has been a slow match a submission move works best. If its been a high impact match, then it deserves to be a pinfall. It also depends on the wrestler, the venue, the buildup, and the match type. I prefer a submission move. You can knock anyone out for 3 seconds. It takes a lot for people to actually give up. So for me it has to be a submission victory.
DeadmanInc.
Getting Noticed By Management
IMO a submission victory is much more meaningful. It takes a lot to make someone give up. For example, Triple H tapping out to the Crossface was huge especially after building up Triple H as the King of Kings. Hulk Hogan tapping out to Kurt Angle was also a huge moment. Who would have though Hulk Hogan would ever quit? Shawn Michaels submitting to Kurt Angle was also a memorable moment. Mr. Wrestlemania himself tapped out at Wrestlemania. It gave me chills when Michaels submitted.
Submissions are really thrilling especially since we don't see submission victories more often. The whole "will he tap out?" thrill keeps me on the edge of my seat, especially when guys who specialize in submissions are executing the move. Kurt Angle and Benoit were great at making their submissions look intense and painful.
Submissions can also make superstars. The most obvious example is Stone Cold Steve Austin who was propelled into main event status after not submitting to the Sharpshooter.
Submissions are really thrilling especially since we don't see submission victories more often. The whole "will he tap out?" thrill keeps me on the edge of my seat, especially when guys who specialize in submissions are executing the move. Kurt Angle and Benoit were great at making their submissions look intense and painful.
Submissions can also make superstars. The most obvious example is Stone Cold Steve Austin who was propelled into main event status after not submitting to the Sharpshooter.
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
I'm split here. Like someone else said, it depends on the match. Some guy's style is just better suited for submissions. To see Flair or Bret Hart win with a pinfall just doesn't sound right, neither does Hogan winning with a submission. In general though, there is just something special to me about seeing a guy getting his shoulders put down for three seconds. It feels right to me to see the referee slapping the mat like that. For example, at WM 12 in the Iron Man match, Shawn won in OT with the superkick. That match (at the time) was the most epic match I'd ever seen, and seeing it end via submission would've been a let down to me. On the other hand, when Hogan lost to Angle via the anglelock, Hogan giving up to lose the match was perfect. Seeing him say to Angle that he couldn't hang on any longer and that Kurt was the better man by submitting was a fitting end to the match. I cold go with either one, but I think in the end I prefer a pinfall, but either is more than fine to me.
IMO there should be more submission matches.now they doesn't even have enough submission wrestlers ppl like benoit,angle,hart etc.the retirement of flair who IMO was greatest submission wrestler might have been the end of it.I simply dont understand wy did jericho stoped to apply walls and started to use code breaker which really doesn't look a good finisher for a guy like jericho.
Like many have said, it all depends on the match, the wrestler's, the event, and stuff like that. Like if it's an Extreme Rules match, and it's Mark Henry v. Tommy Dreamer you kind of expect to see a pinfall victory. Or if it's Kurt Angle v. Dean Malenko, you would probably expect it to end in submission. But in my opinion it doesn't matter what a match ends in. However, I do prefer submission.
I prefer submission because it shows one wrestler being able to make another wrestler want to end the match due to the pain. That gives more credibility to the winner. Unlike the pinfall which can end in a roll-up, or some other fluky way. It doesn't really show who the clear winner is. Although the pinfall is the more "traditional" way to end a match, I still prefer submission.
I prefer submission because it shows one wrestler being able to make another wrestler want to end the match due to the pain. That gives more credibility to the winner. Unlike the pinfall which can end in a roll-up, or some other fluky way. It doesn't really show who the clear winner is. Although the pinfall is the more "traditional" way to end a match, I still prefer submission.
FlairFan2003
Mid-Card Championship Winner
The ending has to fit the match and the fued, with a nod to the winning wrestler's signature moves. Usually submission victories do not work for heels because it's harder to accept a strong face character tapping out to an obnoxoius bad guy. It's easier to think that John Cena might be accidentally caught in an RKO by Randy Orton than to think he would tap out in the middle of the ring.
However, a submission victory is more conclusive. No doubt left in anyone's mind who won. However, if the winning wrestler does not have a submission hold they use as a finisher such a win feels like a cheat, it doesn't make sense. Someone like Batista or Hogan can only get that definative victory by pummeling their opponent for the final few minutes, then hitting their trademark move and pinning them clean in the middle of the ring. In essence, it delivers the same definative impact as a submission win but makes better sense given the wrestler's history.
Typically heels don't use submission holds, they use some sort of quick strike power move that can be applied quickly (like Orton's RKO). That way they can win matches out of nowhere, seemingly when they were getting beat, so the good guy loses but isn't embarrassed as much. Triple H can pull his move out of nowhere. Edge hits his spear often at the most unexpected times. Same with Austin's move. Rarely do we see heels with a definative submission hold as their favorite. Flair rarely won matches with the figure four as a bad guy, although he often pulled out quick pinfalls due to the "pain and damage inflicted by the figure four". Examples like Starrcade 88 when Lex Luger collapsed with Flair in the Torture Rack because his knee gave out leading to Flair pinning him. When a heel turns good they simply use a bigger set up for their finisher to get the crowd into it. Randy Orton would no longer pull his RKO out of nowhere, he would have a big set up for it. Same with HBK who always has a definative set up as a face for his SuperKick.
Also, any definative ending has it's most impact when their is a major fued. If Cena makes Orton tap out in the middle of the ring it's huge because of the build up between two top guys who truly hate each other. It's not the same if Cena makes Carito tap out because they are not pronounced rivals.
However, a submission victory is more conclusive. No doubt left in anyone's mind who won. However, if the winning wrestler does not have a submission hold they use as a finisher such a win feels like a cheat, it doesn't make sense. Someone like Batista or Hogan can only get that definative victory by pummeling their opponent for the final few minutes, then hitting their trademark move and pinning them clean in the middle of the ring. In essence, it delivers the same definative impact as a submission win but makes better sense given the wrestler's history.
Typically heels don't use submission holds, they use some sort of quick strike power move that can be applied quickly (like Orton's RKO). That way they can win matches out of nowhere, seemingly when they were getting beat, so the good guy loses but isn't embarrassed as much. Triple H can pull his move out of nowhere. Edge hits his spear often at the most unexpected times. Same with Austin's move. Rarely do we see heels with a definative submission hold as their favorite. Flair rarely won matches with the figure four as a bad guy, although he often pulled out quick pinfalls due to the "pain and damage inflicted by the figure four". Examples like Starrcade 88 when Lex Luger collapsed with Flair in the Torture Rack because his knee gave out leading to Flair pinning him. When a heel turns good they simply use a bigger set up for their finisher to get the crowd into it. Randy Orton would no longer pull his RKO out of nowhere, he would have a big set up for it. Same with HBK who always has a definative set up as a face for his SuperKick.
Also, any definative ending has it's most impact when their is a major fued. If Cena makes Orton tap out in the middle of the ring it's huge because of the build up between two top guys who truly hate each other. It's not the same if Cena makes Carito tap out because they are not pronounced rivals.
Mr. Showtime
Occasional Pre-Show
Iv'e enjoyed a good amount of classic matches that have involved both pinfall and submission.
But submission always added that little bit more suspense and excitement to a match. Like when Benoit locked on the crippler crossface on HHH a WM XX the suspense was unbelievable because it could have went either way.
But when two evenly matched wrestlers face off in a big ppv match I often enjoy pinfalls more as the wrestlers tend to kick out of each others finishers alot more often than they normally would.
But submission always added that little bit more suspense and excitement to a match. Like when Benoit locked on the crippler crossface on HHH a WM XX the suspense was unbelievable because it could have went either way.
But when two evenly matched wrestlers face off in a big ppv match I often enjoy pinfalls more as the wrestlers tend to kick out of each others finishers alot more often than they normally would.
phat_inallthegoodplaces
mmm... barbecue
i think the last wrestler i've seen with a submission that looked painful was probably punk's anaconda vise, and he doesn't use it anymore. i think that if he should bring it back at his GAB match with batista, because batista isn't the kind of wrestler that would stay down after a GTS.
overall, i'm a fan of the submission finishers, like benoit's crossface. i loved how he could get it locked in anywhere at anytime, and how he just yanked and yanked on his opponents face. i also loved the rivalry he had with angle, and the times when they would use the other's submission on each other. that was classic.
i only like a pinfall after a seriously heavy hitting move. spinebuster, powerbomb, chokeslam, black hole (sidewalk) slam, etc. a pinfall after a soman spike? not believable. a pinfall after something like the last ride? yeah i could go for that. stone cold stunner and the RKO (as well as others) aren't too heavy, but they just happen out of nowhere due to austin's and orton's near perfect execution, so it's more of a stun victory and i can be happy with that too.
overall, i'm a fan of the submission finishers, like benoit's crossface. i loved how he could get it locked in anywhere at anytime, and how he just yanked and yanked on his opponents face. i also loved the rivalry he had with angle, and the times when they would use the other's submission on each other. that was classic.
i only like a pinfall after a seriously heavy hitting move. spinebuster, powerbomb, chokeslam, black hole (sidewalk) slam, etc. a pinfall after a soman spike? not believable. a pinfall after something like the last ride? yeah i could go for that. stone cold stunner and the RKO (as well as others) aren't too heavy, but they just happen out of nowhere due to austin's and orton's near perfect execution, so it's more of a stun victory and i can be happy with that too.
i personally enjoy submission, the funks used to have this really cool submission i forget its name, but wow i love to see it applied and win the match, but, its all to the type of wrestler you are, if your a more technical wrestler i think your finisher should be submission, (ex. bret hart/angle/ric flair etc) if your more a brawler, i would expect something such as a piledriver , (refering to the older days) i hate how wwe banned this move, kills me (ex. jerry lawler, undertaker, etc...) if your a high flyer, then your finnisher should be off the top rope of course, (ex. jeff/eddie/rvd) its all according to your type of wrestler, body type, and gimmik as to how your match should end pinfall or submission, just think of bret hart, using a stunner as his finisher, it would really take away from his character.
i dissagree, batista should get knocked out by the GTS they are trying to build up punk as a great champion, him kicking out of it, would make the move look weak
the soman spike is very beliveable imo, i dont guess you ever taken a serious blow to the throat...
^_^ well said on the stunner/rko even tho i think it has to be sold correctly, like the rocks selling of the stunner was amazing........the entire mcmhan family's selling of the stunner is amazing too
haha i have to say, i enjoy the Undertakers selling of the RKO, until he sits up 2 seconds later T_T
