The Bret Hart/HBK Matches That Didn't Happen

[Emmet]

Ok so I've been reading Bret's book again and came across an interesting facet that I had forgotten about.

In the book, Bret states that (in a perfect world) the plan was for HBK to drop the belt to him at WM13, then Bret would drop it back to Shawn down the line and then they would have several more matches with ultimately Bret putting HBK over one final time, finally passing the torch to him in a symbolic moment.

My question is this, if all of the above had have been agreed upon by both parties, would it have led to bigger ratings and could Bret and HBK together have drawn more money to the company? No doubt the matches would have been brilliant, it's Bret Hart and HBK we are talking about here.

Would the rise of Austin put a spanner in the works? Would they have really kept the title only on Hart and Michaels whilst SCSA was getting that hot in the business?

What do people think of this hypothetical scenario?

 

[HBKperfect23]

I think it would have really added to 97 (which was already a great year) I remember they were annouced for KOTR 97 at one point, does anyone know if this was supposed to happen? Even one more match could have been awesome.

in a perfect world, I would see it going like this:
Shawn Michaels over Bret Hart WM12
Bret Hart over Shawn Michaels WM13
Shawn Michaels over Bret Hart KOTR97
Bret Hart over Shawn Michaels RAW 8/97
Shawn Michaels over Bret Hart Series97 yes still have the screw job
Bret hart over Shawn Michaels Summerslam2002 If Bret never got injured this match would be huge
The 7th Match could be at mania any time in the early 2000s probably with Shawn going over since he would continue to 2010 and Bret wanted to stop wrestling around that time anyway

 

[thesubverse]

Reading his book, Bret sure likes to talk about how he has no problem putting people over, but the only people he ever did it for without crying and bitching and having some sort of problem with it was basically just Curt Hennig and his family. I have very little doubt that if the rematch with HBK happened, regardless how perfect Shawn's attitude could have been, that Bret would still find a way to be unhappy about it and find himself a victim.

 

[sikkbones]

Bret put Yokozuna over a few times too.

 

[Azane]

Reading his book, Bret sure likes to talk about how he has no problem putting people over, but the only people he ever did it for without crying and bitching and having some sort of problem with it was basically just Curt Hennig and his family. I have very little doubt that if the rematch with HBK happened, regardless how perfect Shawn's attitude could have been, that Bret would still find a way to be unhappy about it and find himself a victim.

Ya, Outside of a couple people, Bret's famous for being unwilling to put almost everyone over, to the point saying in his book that he wanted to put them all over is kind of moot.

I remember even Taker said a bunch of things about Bret being a crybaby, and Taker rarely bashes any talent.

 

[Makaveli31]

In a PERFECT world with no backstage politics YES!! It would have been AWESOME! Are you kidding?!? The two greatest in-ring performers of the 90's engaging in a series of matches in their PRIMES?!? It would've been BETTER than the Flair-Steamboat classics on 80's. Add in the fact that these two were light years ahead of Flair and Steamboat athletically PLUS you add in the "worked-shoot" factor of the "Attitude Era"

According to both Bret and HBK both were in agreement that they would "work' the boys, the 'sheets' and the "smart" fans into thinking there was LEGIT heat between the two stemming from WM 12. Shawn telling Bret to "get out of my f'ing ring", Bret refusing the shake Shawn's hand or speak to him after the match etc.....and it WORKED. Everyone was talking about the heat between Bret and Shawn.

Then Bret (the supposed babyface) takes shots at Shawn (the top babyface) in newspaper articles and interviews etc....to build even more heat! Except Shawn takes exception to some of the stuff Bret says (the Playgirl, the insinuation about Shawn's sexual orientation...and even including Shawn's parents. Shawn then cuts in own promos lambasting the Hitman not as a wrestling character but as a person. This of course all leads to the infamous "Sunny days" promo and the shoot fight in the dressing room which of course leads to the screwjob.

Unfortunately what made this rivalry so great was the legit heat between the two in '97. The promos they cut each other were scathing. I don't know if we could've got that type of emotion in a "worked" setting. I also don't see ONE putting the THE OTHER over in a ANY scenario.

The ONLY reason Bret put Shawn over at WM 12 was because Bret was 1) Taking time off 2) His contract was up. He put Yokozuna over ONLY because Vince convinced Bret that he would win the belt back from HOGAN at SummerSlam '93. Bret TO THIS DAY still harbors animosity towards Hogan because he felt Hogan refused to put him over. He put Backlund over only because it would lead to a reduced schedule for Bret Hart I believe he was only doing TV's and European tours at that point.

 

[Makaveli31]

But YES the matches would've been brilliant. BOTH were professionals IN THE RING. I don't think the rise of Austin would've put a damper on anything YET. He was still mid-card in '97 but by '98 YES Austin would've been the TOP guy. By then Shawn and Bret would've been done with their hypothetical program. I believe Bret was looking at retiring or winding down by 1998 and certainly '99.

The only thing is Bret was a heel in '97 and by the end of '97 and so was Shawn so one would have had to turn babyface.

 

[shooter_mcgavin]

Watching Survivor Series 1997 if you take away the screw job the match they had could have been a classic. It's interesting the difference in dynamic both had going into their matches at WM12 and Survivor Series 97. In WM12 both were faces and they were doing a technical wrestling match while Survivor Series 97 it was essentially a brawl and a slugfest.

Actually if you ask me I think if they didn't the screw job and just had a real finish, Survivor Series 97 could have been the better match up due to the additional intensity brought had in the ring. Especially Bret Hart you could tell he was angry.

Point is that it shows how good these two are together and I would have loved to see a series of matches between the two.

If Shawn Michael's didn't lose his smile and Bret Hart didn't leave WCW. I probably would have felt that That we could have got possibly 2 more matches between the two. A match where Bret goes over an a rubber match.

My guess would be Bret Hart goes over at WM13 at a Ladder Match. Though if there rubber match was to happen at Survivor Series or Summer Slam 1997 and with Austin getting as hot as he did, my guess is Bret Hart would eventually be the Champion turning heel around Summer Slam. Since it's obvious the torch passing now has to be done to Austin and not Shawn Michaels.

 

[peter_midnight]

Ok so I've been reading Bret's book again and came across an interesting facet that I had forgotten about.

In the book, Bret states that (in a perfect world) the plan was for HBK to drop the belt to him at WM13, then Bret would drop it back to Shawn down the line and then they would have several more matches with ultimately Bret putting HBK over one final time, finally passing the torch to him in a symbolic moment.

My question is this, if all of the above had have been agreed upon by both parties, would it have led to bigger ratings and could Bret and HBK together have drawn more money to the company? No doubt the matches would have been brilliant, it's Bret Hart and HBK we are talking about here.

Would the rise of Austin put a spanner in the works? Would they have really kept the title only on Hart and Michaels whilst SCSA was getting that hot in the business?

What do people think of this hypothetical scenario?

The question here is why would Vince put these two back into a feud with each other for so long? I like Bret Hart, but this pairing just doesn't make any sense from the promoter's standpoint. WM 12 was what, 14,000 or so at the Arrowhead Pond (I live in LA and don't remember the paid number being above 15,000, but officially it was 18,000 with about 3,000 being papered)? That sounds impressive for the time, but not when you consider that WCW was selling out 30,000+ for f'ing Monday Nitro on a weekly basis in 97-98. I don't have the buy rates for that time, but I imagine they reflected the attendance numbers.

The money match was to have Bret put over Austin at WM14 after winning the belt from Michaels at 13. This seemed to be the plan as they had Bret win the Rumble (via the final 4), but then Shawn lost his smile, they did the double turn, and Undertaker won the belt. Then, you see Bret winning the belt at Summerslam while Austin was picking up steam. Austin was inching closer to beating Bret every time they wrestled and it was only a matter of time before he should have finally beat the Hitman. WCW was so clueless that they never even mentioned how Bret never lost to Austin and Bret had to mention it during his feud with Goldberg.

'97 was a lot of politicking as lots of angles were reshuffled to appease everybody (Austin going after Owen instead of Bret, Shawn Michaels all over the place, Undertaker-Kane instead of getting his revenge on Shawn for Summerslam). To be honest, I don't know why Vince went with Shawn over Bret as far as the screw job goes, but I'm guessing that he was thinking age to be a big factor into keeping Shawn and forcing Bret out. I say push Shawn out and let him go to WCW. What is he going to do? Politick his way into beating Hulk Hogan and win the WCW world title? Play second fiddle in the nWo to Hogan so he can be w/Hall & Nash? Bret Hart ended up being a non-threat, but he was much better at playing ball. Considering that no one could have predicted the aftermath, Shawn seems to be the logical choice. In reality, Hart ended up being the best choice, but no one could have predicted that at the time.

 

[Makaveli31]

The question here is why would Vince put these two back into a feud with each other for so long? I like Bret Hart, but this pairing just doesn't make any sense from the promoter's standpoint. WM 12 was what, 14,000 or so at the Arrowhead Pond (I live in LA and don't remember the paid number being above 15,000, but officially it was 18,000 with about 3,000 being papered)? That sounds impressive for the time, but not when you consider that WCW was selling out 30,000+ for f'ing Monday Nitro on a weekly basis in 97-98. I don't have the buy rates for that time, but I imagine they reflected the attendance numbers.

I agree BUT HBK (babyface) = NO $ HBK (circa '97/98 as a HEEL) = $$$$$. Just look at how popular DX became. He was to the WWF what Hall and Nash were to WCW. Say what you want about HBK but there was NOBODY better than HBK in the ring in '96 and '97. His matches speak for themselves. It's why Vince would ultimately choose Shawn over Bret when they had their locker room fight.

The question is BRET HART. Vince had just paid Bret the richest contract in WWF history and I believe Vince felt betrayed to a certain extent over Bret basically holding him up for that contact in the summer of 96. Vince could not afford to let another WWF wrestler go to WCW and join the NWO. BUT Bret Hart as a character was obsolete. Vince was already going in the direction of "Attitude" by the time the Hitman returned.

Now that I think about it the plan might have definitely been Austin-Bret at '14. Bret was being built as the top heel BUT Shawn swerved him and moved HIMSELF into the top heel position at 'Slam '97.

DEFINITELY alot of politicking in 1997 as Vince's back was against the wall. He couldn't afford to let Shawn or Bret go to WCW.

I don't know why Vince went with Shawn over Bret as far as the screw job goes, but I'm guessing that he was thinking age to be a big factor into keeping Shawn and forcing Bret out.

I think Bret's contract had alot to do with it. It was a chance to get out from under Bret's contract especially because Bret was no longer going to be a top guy by 1998. Remember, he owed Bret ALOT of money towards the back end of that deal because he out off payments until the end of the contract.

I say push Shawn out and let him go to WCW. What is he going to do? Politick his way into beating Hulk Hogan and win the WCW world title?

What?!? Shawn was the top heel at the time. There was no one hotter than DX. The kliq reforming in WCW would've been a HUGE coup for Eric Bischoff. By 1997/98 everyone was smart to the fact that Hall Nash HBK HHH and Kid were all friends and one could only imagine the "shoot" interviews they would do on live TV.

 

[peter_midnight]

I agree BUT HBK (babyface) = NO $ HBK (circa '97/98 as a HEEL) = $$$$$. Just look at how popular DX became. He was to the WWF what Hall and Nash were to WCW. Say what you want about HBK but there was NOBODY better than HBK in the ring in '96 and '97. His matches speak for themselves. It's why Vince would ultimately choose Shawn over Bret when they had their locker room fight.

The question is BRET HART. Vince had just paid Bret the richest contract in WWF history and I believe Vince felt betrayed to a certain extent over Bret basically holding him up for that contact in the summer of 96. Vince could not afford to let another WWF wrestler go to WCW and join the NWO. BUT Bret Hart as a character was obsolete. Vince was already going in the direction of "Attitude" by the time the Hitman returned.

Now that I think about it the plan might have definitely been Austin-Bret at '14. Bret was being built as the top heel BUT Shawn swerved him and moved HIMSELF into the top heel position at 'Slam '97.

DEFINITELY alot of politicking in 1997 as Vince's back was against the wall. He couldn't afford to let Shawn or Bret go to WCW.



I think Bret's contract had alot to do with it. It was a chance to get out from under Bret's contract especially because Bret was no longer going to be a top guy by 1998. Remember, he owed Bret ALOT of money towards the back end of that deal because he out off payments until the end of the contract.



What?!? Shawn was the top heel at the time. There was no one hotter than DX. The kliq reforming in WCW would've been a HUGE coup for Eric Bischoff. By 1997/98 everyone was smart to the fact that Hall Nash HBK HHH and Kid were all friends and one could only imagine the "shoot" interviews they would do on live TV.

Alright, explain to me how Shawn Michaels in 1997 was money as a heel. Didn't they have Raw at a place that looked like the manhattan center when he did the finger poke of doom 1.0 with HHH? Wasn't that 1 month into his heel run? That WM with Austin, they drew about 1,000 fans more than they did w/Sid vs Undertaker the year before in Chicago. Again, where is the money in this guy? No offense, but did you even watch Nitro from 96-97? Probably half if not more of the undercard were so much better than Shawn Michaels in-ring during that time frame.

This thing about Bret being paid the biggest contract is also sort of a scratching head thing to me as well. Hogan made MUCH more money than Bret over his WWF career. The only difference is Bret had the largest guaranteed contract ever. Okay, so what? And how could Vince not afford to let Bret go to the nWo, when the nWo didn't even form until JULY 1996 at BATB. Bret took time off after WM in March, so again, this argument doesn't hold either. How did Bret hold Vince up when he turned down MORE money to stay to be paid in 3 years whereas Vince was paying Bret less money over a LONGER time period?

On another thread, I agree with your sentiment that Bret as a "character" was done for and his only choice IF he stayed in WWF was to turn heel. He could have extended his babyface run if he went to WCW and went against the nWo, but how does he get sympathy without the screw job?

Bret-Austin is the clear logical choice given that Steve never got his revenge on Bret Hart & now that they switched roles, you could do it and get Austin over as a babyface. To me, that always hurt his career, but obviously it didn't affect it too much, lol.

Shawn was the top heel at a time when that meant nothing. It's not like they were selling out or doing record ratings. In fact, it wasn't until AFTER Shawn Michaels left the WWF, that it truly began to take over in house shows, PPV, and ratings. People seem to have a different memory than I do, but I don't remember DX getting popular until X-Pac and the NAO joined. Until then, it was always turn the channel heat for me, but I'll be honest, I was a WWF guy until 1996 World War 3 when I saw the nWo for the first time and never looked back. I mainly watched Bret/Owen & Pillman segments then back over to Nitro.

I was in high school in 1997 and while I sort knew when they weren't being in "character", it wasn't like I knew all of this backstage stuff going on. Most of my friends didn't either except for 2 tape traders that I met 2 years later. I seriously doubt "everyone" was smart to this fact as you say. Again, maybe I remember 1997 differently, but it wasn't like we were all using Netscape on Observer .com getting all of the backstage gossip. In fact, I remember scoops .com being wrong on 90% of the spoilers, lol.

 

[Makaveli31]

Alright, explain to me how Shawn Michaels in 1997 was money as a heel.

Um...you ever heard of DX? Hell in a Cell?

Didn't they have Raw at a place that looked like the manhattan center when he did the finger poke of doom 1.0 with HHH? Wasn't that 1 month into his heel run?

What are you talking about?!? They stopped using the Manhattan Center in 1993 and using arenas and domes in 1997.

That WM with Austin, they drew about 1,000 fans more than they did w/Sid vs Undertaker the year before in Chicago. Again, where is the money in this guy? No offense, but did you even watch Nitro from 96-97? Probably half if not more of the undercard were so much better than Shawn Michaels in-ring during that time frame.

No offense but are you freaking kidding me?!? You think the UNDERCARD was better than HBK?!? Really so what undercard match are you talking about? SO you're saying the UNDERCARD on Niteo was better than the Iron Man match with Bret, better than Hell in a Cell with 'Taker or even the Ground Zero match with 'Taker. Better than the Mind Games with Mick Foley?!? What are you smoking? This guy went into WM 14 with a broken back and still pulled of a great match with Austin. I could even go back to the matches with Razor and Diesel. The undercard guys on Nitro you're talking about had TWO guys that could go Shawn was severely limited by his "partner" usually a guy likes Sid or Vader and he still managed to get decent matches out of them. What decent match do you remember Sid being in?!?

This thing about Bret being paid the biggest contract is also sort of a scratching head thing to me as well. Hogan made MUCH more money than Bret over his WWF career. The only difference is Bret had the largest guaranteed contract ever. Okay, so what? And how could Vince not afford to let Bret go to the nWo, when the nWo didn't even form until JULY 1996 at BATB. Bret took time off after WM in March, so again, this argument doesn't hold either. How did Bret hold Vince up when he turned down MORE money to stay to be paid in 3 years whereas Vince was paying Bret less money over a LONGER time period?

Different times kid. Hogan was during the HEIGHT of the WWF"s popularity and a BOOM period in wrestling, they were running three towns a night. They weren't doing live weekly shows. Plus this was AFTER the STEROID trial which severely drained the WWF'S and McMahon's personal bank account. We're talking about fighting the federal government! The WWF was in the red from 1993 until 1998 so he simply couldn't afford to pay Bret the million or so a yeat. The comparison to Hogan is stupid.

Shawn was the top heel at a time when that meant nothing. It's not like they were selling out or doing record ratings. In fact, it wasn't until AFTER Shawn Michaels left the WWF, that it truly began to take over in house shows, PPV, and ratings. People seem to have a different memory than I do, but I don't remember DX getting popular until X-Pac and the NAO joined. Until then, it was always turn the channel heat for me, but I'll be honest, I was a WWF guy until 1996 World War 3 when I saw the nWo for the first time and never looked back. I mainly watched Bret/Owen & Pillman segments then back over to Nitro.

The wheels were set in motion. Things were changing. They were selling out. If you look at the numbers WWF house shows regularly outdrew WCW's As far as ratings it wasn't going to change overight but the WWF was getting closer and closer. Ummmm DX was VERY popular BEFORE X-PAC and the NAO joined. DX pushed the envelope as far as what they did on TV. They were truly cutting edge. I suggest you go back and look at some of the early DX stuff. It was amazing.

I was in high school in 1997 and while I sort knew when they weren't being in "character", it wasn't like I knew all of this backstage stuff going on. Most of my friends didn't either except for 2 tape traders that I met 2 years later. I seriously doubt "everyone" was smart to this fact as you say. Again, maybe I remember 1997 differently, but it wasn't like we were all using Netscape on Observer .com getting all of the backstage gossip. In fact, I remember scoops .com being wrong on 90% of the spoilers, lol.
sendpm.gif

Well I had the internet as most wrestling fans at the time so I don't know how you could not know what was going on unless you were just a casual fan who just watched on Monday nights. But the kliq and curtain call were widely known at the time.

 

[Makaveli31]

And how could Vince not afford to let Bret go to the nWo, when the nWo didn't even form until JULY 1996 at BATB. Bret took time off after WM in March, so again, this argument doesn't hold either. How did Bret hold Vince up when he turned down MORE money to stay to be paid in 3 years whereas Vince was paying Bret less money over a LONGER time period?

Yes the NWO formed in July of 96. Bret 's contract ended AFTER WM 12 in March or April of '96 he was without a contract until he signed shortly before Survivor Series '96 what don't you understand? YES he turned down MORE money but he got a RECORD contract from Vince TO STAY. Over a million dollars. Before that Vince was paying ALL the top guys the same amount. Bret , Shawn, 'Taker.....Bret became the first to get guaranteed contract that paid him over a million dollars a year. His first three years were LOADED what are you talking about?!? You think Vince GAVE Bret that contract out of the KINDNESS of his heart?!? LOL Read Bret's book. He basically tells Vince he has to think about his family.

 

[Makaveli31]

WWF IYH Badd Blood - 21,151
WCW Halloween Havoc - 12, 457

WWF Survivor Series 97 20,593
WCW World War 3 17,128

IYH DX 6,358
Starrcade 17,500

Royal Rumble 18,542
Sould Out 5,486

Wrestle Mania 19.428

So WWF ( with HBK as a heel) outdrew WCW in 4 out of five PPV's he was co-main eventing and he wasn't money?!?

Try again

 

[peter_midnight]

Um...you ever heard of DX? Hell in a Cell?



What are you talking about?!? They stopped using the Manhattan Center in 1993 and using arenas and domes in 1997.



No offense but are you freaking kidding me?!? You think the UNDERCARD was better than HBK?!? Really so what undercard match are you talking about? SO you're saying the UNDERCARD on Niteo was better than the Iron Man match with Bret, better than Hell in a Cell with 'Taker or even the Ground Zero match with 'Taker. Better than the Mind Games with Mick Foley?!? What are you smoking? This guy went into WM 14 with a broken back and still pulled of a great match with Austin. I could even go back to the matches with Razor and Diesel. The undercard guys on Nitro you're talking about had TWO guys that could go Shawn was severely limited by his "partner" usually a guy likes Sid or Vader and he still managed to get decent matches out of them. What decent match do you remember Sid being in?!?



Different times kid. Hogan was during the HEIGHT of the WWF"s popularity and a BOOM period in wrestling, they were running three towns a night. They weren't doing live weekly shows. Plus this was AFTER the STEROID trial which severely drained the WWF'S and McMahon's personal bank account. We're talking about fighting the federal government! The WWF was in the red from 1993 until 1998 so he simply couldn't afford to pay Bret the million or so a yeat. The comparison to Hogan is stupid.



The wheels were set in motion. Things were changing. They were selling out. If you look at the numbers WWF house shows regularly outdrew WCW's As far as ratings it wasn't going to change overight but the WWF was getting closer and closer. Ummmm DX was VERY popular BEFORE X-PAC and the NAO joined. DX pushed the envelope as far as what they did on TV. They were truly cutting edge. I suggest you go back and look at some of the early DX stuff. It was amazing.



Well I had the internet as most wrestling fans at the time so I don't know how you could not know what was going on unless you were just a casual fan who just watched on Monday nights. But the kliq and curtain call were widely known at the time.

-DX technically wasn't formed until October 13, 1997. You telling me it was money its first month in place? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g01c22SPyQg

-Hell In a Cell featured 2 guys I had no interest in: The Undertaker & Shawn Michaels so I've only seen clips of the match. When people think of Hell in a Cell, they think of Mankind more than Shawn Michaels anyway.

-I said a place that looked like the Manhattan Center. Do you even reading comprehension? It was an auditorium and the attendance was 2,403. Oddly enough the same place he lost his smile and low drawing nonetheless. http://www.profightdb.com/locations...ts/lowell/lowell-memorial-auditorium-334.html

-Are you seriously trying to make the case that guys like Chris Benoit, Konnan, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Jericho, Dean Malenko, and like half of the roster weren't putting on better matches than Shawn Michaels? Benoit's entire feud with Kevin Sullivan had more heat than anything Michaels did from 96-98 except for POSSIBLY the Bret match in Montreal. WCW's roster was stacked during this period putting on some of the best performances on any given Nitro, yes, NITRO!

-I recall Sid Vicious having great matches with Chris Benoit. Actually, now that I think about it. Michaels wrestled Sid, and he still needed 20,000 papered in his f'n hometown to get a sell out crowd, lol.

-You call Vader a limited partner, really? This guy was one of the most over heels in wrestling, doing moonsaults and you call him limited?

-I believe the contract was structured as such that Bret only got 1 mil for his first and possibly his second year, then it was $500,000 per year for the remainder as such that it ended up matching the 9 mil contract WCW offered, but over time (makes sense as $500,000 x 18 = 9 mil so I think his first 2 years had a structure based on him being active while the rest were retirement years). I'm not sure, but essentially it was the only way Vince was willing to match the deal. I could be wrong as I don't have Bret's book in front of me (it's in my closet), but I believe the contract was structured in a way so that they would match the deal over time. Again, why anyone would agree or offer this is beyond me, but Bret being from Canada probably thinks differently than an American would.

-WCW never had impressive house show numbers and I never used that point, so I don't know why that was brought up, but WWF always beat WCW house show numbers. You're using a straw man here.

-The only early thing I particularly liked from those guys was the promo they did on Undertaker being burned. Everything else was, why are these guys talking? Oh well, let's see what Nitro has going on. Oh how about that a wrestling match on a WRESTLING SHOW! GENIUS!

-C'mon dude, the internet in 1997 was full of all kinds of nonsense and you know it. Again, I'm from Los Angeles and we just didn't care that much. I don't remember the boom reaching us until 1999 or so. Don't get me wrong, I watched the program, but my friends in school that never watched wrestling didn't start talking about it until 1999ish.

Yes the NWO formed in July of 96. Bret 's contract ended AFTER WM 12 in March or April of '96 he was without a contract until he signed shortly before Survivor Series '96 what don't you understand? YES he turned down MORE money but he got a RECORD contract from Vince TO STAY. Over a million dollars. Before that Vince was paying ALL the top guys the same amount. Bret , Shawn, 'Taker.....Bret became the first to get guaranteed contract that paid him over a million dollars a year. His first three years were LOADED what are you talking about?!? You think Vince GAVE Bret that contract out of the KINDNESS of his heart?!? LOL Read Bret's book. He basically tells Vince he has to think about his family.

-The contract was different. It was loaded in a sense that he got paid for being ACTIVE, then it went to some figure like $500,000/yr for 20 years so that amount wise it ended up being the same as the WCW contract, but the guy had to be an ACTIVE wrestler to get his money. It's not like he made 6 mil upfront then 200,000/yr for the remainder of his career. Also, what does the above even have to do with your point about joining the NWO? It was clearly a panic move, but what is Bret Hart going to do in a Hulk Hogan led NWO? Exactly what he did in 1998, NOTHING.

WWF IYH Badd Blood - 21,151
WCW Halloween Havoc - 12, 457

WWF Survivor Series 97 20,593
WCW World War 3 17,128

IYH DX 6,358
Starrcade 17,500

Royal Rumble 18,542
Sould Out 5,486

Wrestle Mania 19.428

So WWF ( with HBK as a heel) outdrew WCW in 4 out of five PPV's he was co-main eventing and he wasn't money?!?

Try again

Those are PPV numbers and you aren't looking at it from the perspective I told you. Royal Rumble in 1997 drew 40,000 PAYING fans for Shawn as a babyface against Sid in his HOMETOWN. 1998 only draws 18,542? How is Shawn Michaels a draw? First of all why would WCW numbers matter on PPV when they were drawing more on Nitro each week (sometimes announcing a lower number than actual attendance, lol)? Also, no one argued that WCW was drawing big numbers until 1997 so again you're using a straw man. Wrestlemania 14 did 19,428 (what was the actual paid number?). WM13 did 18,000 w/Sid & Undertaker. Again, how does this prove Shawn Michaels is a draw? If anything, it proves that the show itself was a draw because numbers remained relatively the same whether or not Shawn Michaels was the heel. You're using a strawman here and it proves nothing.

 

[Makaveli31]

-Hell In a Cell featured 2 guys I had no interest in: The Undertaker & Shawn Michaels so I've only seen clips of the match. When people think of Hell in a Cell, they think of Mankind more than Shawn Michaels anyway.

Well I suggest you watch the whole thing. It was an absolute classic. You are in the minority on this. Shawn Michaels will always be linked with Hell in a Cell. I don't know what you are smoking. You just admitted you've never even watched the match so your opinion on it is irrelevant. So you're saying DX wasn't money in '97 I don't know they were just the second most popular in terms of merchandise behind Austin, they had a DVD made before wrestling DVD's were even popular anf had a whole PPV named after them. If you don't think DX was money you are even dumber than I thought.

I said a place that looked like the Manhattan Center. Do you even reading comprehension? It was an auditorium and the attendance was 2,403. Oddly enough the same place he lost his smile and low drawing nonetheless. http://www.profightdb.com/locations/...orium-334.html

So you're entire argument is based on the attendance figures of one episode of RAW?

Are you seriously trying to make the case that guys like Chris Benoit, Konnan, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Jericho, Dean Malenko, and like half of the roster weren't putting on better matches than Shawn Michaels? Benoit's entire feud with Kevin Sullivan had more heat than anything Michaels did from 96-98 except for POSSIBLY the Bret match in Montreal. WCW's roster was stacked during this period putting on some of the best performances on any given Nitro, yes, NITRO!

You are true idiot if you put Konnan and Dean freaking Malenko in the same sentence as HBK. Jericho, Benoit, and Guerrero BECAME great but they weren't great in '97. They were still up and coming and CERTAINLY not on the level as Shawn Michaels. I take in the whole context not just one. In- ring ability, charisma, and look and in all three categories Shawn Michaels one of if not THE GREATEST. He had it all plain and simple and if you argue that point you are an idiot.

I recall Sid Vicious having great matches with Chris Benoit. Actually, now that I think about it. Michaels wrestled Sid, and he still needed 20,000 papered in his f'n hometown to get a sell out crowd, lol.

I wouldn't call then "GREAT" matches if you do you're bar for "GREAT" matches is extremely low. I just said Shawn as a babyface didn't sell can't you read?!?

OK Vader in WCW was VERY DIFFERENT from the one in WWF whether or not that was Vader's fault or not is up for debate (I believe Vince cut his balls off) and told him if you pull that rough stuff you're out. YOU can't compare the monster in WCW to the passive one in WWF. He let Shawn kick his ass all over in the ring but we already said Shawn as a baby DID NOT SELL.

WCW never had impressive house show numbers and I never used that point, so I don't know why that was brought up, but WWF always beat WCW house show numbers. You're using a straw man here.

Numbers are numbers pal. They all equal money. WWF focused on house shows while WCW focused on ratings so what's the difference? You seem the pick and choose which ones you want. Bischoff is on record stating their MAIN goal what to beat WWF in the ratings while Vince on the other hand has NEVER stated his goal was to beat WCW in the ratings.

C'mon dude, the internet in 1997 was full of all kinds of nonsense and you know it. Again, I'm from Los Angeles and we just didn't care that much. I don't remember the boom reaching us until 1999 or so. Don't get me wrong, I watched the program, but my friends in school that never watched wrestling didn't start talking about it until 1999ish.

The boom didn't reach you until '99?!? Jesus lord you missed out on ALL KINDS of good stuff. At least there is YouTube for you.

Those are PPV numbers and you aren't looking at it from the perspective I told you. Royal Rumble in 1997 drew 40,000 PAYING fans for Shawn as a babyface against Sid in his HOMETOWN. 1998 only draws 18,542? How is Shawn Michaels a draw? First of all why would WCW numbers matter on PPV when they were drawing more on Nitro each week (sometimes announcing a lower number than actual attendance, lol)? Also, no one argued that WCW was drawing big numbers until 1997 so again you're using a straw man. Wrestlemania 14 did 19,428 (what was the actual paid number?). WM13 did 18,000 w/Sid & Undertaker. Again, how does this prove Shawn Michaels is a draw? If anything, it proves that the show itself was a draw because numbers remained relatively the same whether or not Shawn Michaels was the heel. You're using a strawman here and it proves nothing.

So you're talking perspective. It's called different buildings genius. The freaking AlamoDome which can seat a WHOLE HELL of a lot more people compared to the San Jose Arena. Where there a FEWER seats but they can charge more. PPV matters because you are PAYING for PPV vs free tv who cares about TV ratings?!?

Also, no one argued that WCW was drawing big numbers until 1997 so again you're using a straw man..

Those numbers are from 1997 genius.

WM13 did 18,000 w/Sid & Undertaker. Again, how does this prove Shawn Michaels is a draw? If anything, it proves that the show itself was a draw because numbers remained relatively the same whether or not Shawn Michaels was the heel. You're using a strawman here and it proves nothing.

So does it prove ANYONE is a draw by your you freaking idiot? It's called SELLING OUT A BUILDING. YOU can't do that UNLESS YOU ARE A DRAW you freaking moron. It proves Shawn is draw because the building SOLD OUT same with Austin same with Sid same with Taker.

 

[HBKperfect23]

"Hell In a Cell featured 2 guys I had no interest in: The Undertaker & Shawn Michaels so I've only seen clips of the match. When people think of Hell in a Cell, they think of Mankind more than Shawn Michaels anyway. "

WOW! I stopped reading your post after this, but.....

If not for Bret/Austin at mania this is the match of the year....in a year with a lot of great matches.

Even though Bret/Shawn series would have been amazing, I'm glad they didn't wrestle at mania 13. Reason being: Bret/Austin classic. KOTR would have been a great place for Bret/Shawn 2.

 

[Emmet]

Makavelli the claim you are making that HBK was the best wrestler in the WWF in 1997 is preposterous considering HBK wrestled what, about 10 matches in the calendar year? '96 I will give you but 1997 belonged to Bret Hart and Steve Austin.

 

[Makaveli31]

Makavelli the claim you are making that HBK was the best wrestler in the WWF in 1997 is preposterous considering HBK wrestled what, about 10 matches in the calendar year? '96 I will give you but 1997 belonged to Bret Hart and Steve Austin.
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When did I ever say he was the best wrestler in '97? I only listed PPV's where was an active participant and main event meaning the show was built around his match. The argument was that was HBK WAS NOT A DRAW I refuted that with facts. Whether or not he was "the best wrestler" is a subjective argument.

 

[Matyy256]

It's still crazy to think that both were gone from the WWF roster within six months of each other. As fans we missed out on what would have been some classic matches such Hart vs Angle and HBK vs The Rock and not to mention against each other. They both let their egos cheat the fans.

 

[Makaveli31]

Makavelli the claim you are making that HBK was the best wrestler in the WWF in 1997 is preposterous considering HBK wrestled what, about 10 matches in the calendar year? '96 I will give you but 1997 belonged to Bret Hart and Steve Austin.
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If anything that just reinforces my argument about HBK being a draw. The guy was basically out the first 8 months of '97 comes back and immediately supplants Bret as the top heel. He was the one wrestling 'Taker not Bret. Bret was feuding with the Patriot.

It's still crazy to think that both were gone from the WWF roster within six months of each other. As fans we missed out on what would have been some classic matches such Hart vs Angle and HBK vs The Rock and not to mention against each other. They both let their egos cheat the fans.
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It really is amazing that these two careers would be cut short in what should've been the primes of their careers. It was a blessing in disguise for Shawn as he able to save the wear and tear on his body and come back clean and sober with out the backstage BS. He was able to give us the great matches with HHH, Jericho, Benoit, Angle, Taker etc....

Bret's career for all intents and purposes ended at Survivor Series '97. No one remembers anything about his WCW career except for that crushing kick by Goldberg. It's really shame because Bret was the type of wrestler (like HBK) that could've wrestled (on top) for another decade meaning they took care of their bodies. They didn't cripple themselves in the ring. I would've LOVED to see Bret come back after WCW folded (I believe he would've taken a buyout to come back) and feud with Jericho, Benoit, Angle and even HHH and HBK.

 

[HatchetMan84]

I kept hoping that in 2010 when Bret came back, if his "match" with Vince went okay, that he would have more matches, and HBK could eventually wrestle him again. Now i KNOW that Bret was limited after his stroke, but I felt like HBK would know something about that, that even after he came back, he was not 100% of what he used to be, as he wrestle a much more methodical style than the high-flying bump maniac that he was in the 90's.

I felt if anybody could pull it off and make it look good, it would be Shawn and Bret. Sadly, i had no idea that the match with Vince was going to be so bad. I remember reading the reports in 2010 that during the buildup to the Vince match, Bret was training his ass off in calgary and working with his family and some local wrestlers to get back in shape. They said then that Bret could still do all the moves, but he was just overly careful with his head and neck. On that note, Summerslam 2010 sort of avenged him because he put together a great string of moves against Nexus during that match....