The Biggest Problem In Professional Wrestling

[MrPlatano1989]

I just read Josh Isenberg's latest title this. I wanted to discuss with you all and hear thoughts about what I believe is the most obvious biggest problem in professional wrestling today. Now this is just my opinion but its a very strong one. Its not the vets stealing TV time, the amount of seconds of in-ring grapples, the tired segments, the re-cycled storylines, the youth being held down, the style of programming and presentation, or even the characters with no depth. In my opinion, the biggest problem today is the "IWC".

Now by "IWC", I don't mean hardcore wrestling fans. I consider myself a hardcore wrestling fan, and after much reading, surprisingly a lot of you posters truly share my passion and are true wrestling fans as well. I'm referring to the awful thought process that most people picked up sometime in their lives, allowed it to take over their previously pure mind, and forever cloud their judgement. The idea of labeling something as a success or failure based of what they think is best, instead of watching something and truly understanding their hard work, vision, and story.

This idea leads people to think without true logic, and contradict themselves all the time without knowing. This then leads to people discrediting companies like WWE & TNA to the point that it hurts the product. It creates this dark cloud over the current state of wrestling that would have not been there if it wasn't for the masses following this ideology. Ask a wrestling fan when was the last time wrestling was great, and I'm sure most will say its never lost its touch. Ask someone from the "IWC", and they'll claim it to be in a fast declining state for over a decade.

I am a big supporter of pro wrestling, in every form of the term. I sometimes wonder what led people to think in this negative superficial way. I'm sure each "IWC" individual heard someone else doing it and slowly but surely adapted that idea, but where did it REALLY spark from? Quality of product declining? "Misuse" of favorite wrestlers? The hostile competitive environment of the Monday Night Wars? Horrible wrestling moments? Botchamania?

My idea of the current state of wrestling includes countless promotions around the world with more strengths than weaknesses. Ratings are nothing. Rosters filled with depth in talent. knowledge, variety, and experience. Multiple chances to watch throughout the week, each with their own style and tone. Archives that will always be there to look back at history, and also add whats being written today. Promos, finishers, commentators, match types, music, entrances, reveals, title changes, growth, new eras, old & new faces.

IWC's ideas usually include 1 real promotion, with more weaknesses than strengths. Ratings are everything. Rosters that have no magic and are filled with staleness. 1 long boring 3 hour chance to stream which is only 27.4 minutes if you count the "right" way. Archives that remind us of better times and hold no attachment or connection to today, even if today is a continuation of the past and exists in the same story. Scripts with no weight, recycled moves, annoyances on the headsets, gimmicks, boring tunes, obvious directions and reveals, prop changes, decline, same old shit, old and boring faces, and new held back or no talent faces.

This dragged on longer than I hoped but the point is if the masses keep thinking this way, then for them, pro wrestling will never hurdle their impossible standards and expectations. They'll miss something good 8 times out of 10 because of the way they choose to watch / judge it. This is what hurts the product and business the most, so called fans that don't truly understand wrestling and the process that takes place before every event or moment. I just wish people could let go of their style of watching for one night and try watching as a fan. When I go to the movies, I watch the film with excitement to see their full story unravel so I could piece everything together. Most IWC people probably sit there and lose focus of the story being told. Your too busy thinking how YOU would have written it to better suit what YOU think will be best for YOU. Really think about that. Opinion isn't fact, and never will be.

Please comment below with any of the following; Your thoughts on the "IWC", what it means to be a wrestling fan, what you consider a smark, wrestlings biggest problems, why im wrong, or why you consider your opinion to be fact! Thank you!

 

[Zeven_Zion]

The IWC? A bunch of jaded, over-opinionated idiots. We pawn off our own preferences as fact and we generalize to the entire pro wrestling following. We don't help the business one iota, all we do is criticize, nitpick, overanalyze and make wrestlers fear going to the web 'cause they'll read some horrible thing about them.

Mind you, I'm included in this bunch of lovely fellows and if you're reading this, so are you.

Casual fans have no business on boards like these. I watch all kinds of shows and not once have I been on a forum to discuss what's happening on them. Only with wrestling. I'm more passionate about real sports and even then I don't go on forums.

You know what I do? I mind my own business. I watch the show, enjoy it and then go on with whatever I was doing not even thinking about it until the next episode.

I really wish it was this way with wrestling too. I waste too much time debating matters with morons who won't change their minds. They waste their time with this moron over here as well.

As far as what it means to be a wrestling fan, all you need to do is watch some show. TNA, WWE, Japan, whatever. If you watch it and you enjoy it you're a fan and it means you like something for some reason. Shouldn't be more depth to it than that.

And a smark? Look at what I said about the IWC. The IWC consists of smarks.

Finally, wrestling's biggest problem, in my opinion, is wrestling itself. I think the genre's dying, I think the nature of the genre restricts it from becoming more popular ever again and I think people are just done with it. It's for children, it's fake, it's corny and it has no must-watch quality to draw people in. It's being watched only by little children, young adults who grew up with the Attitude Era and middle aged men who grew up with 80's wrestling, continued to watch through their 20's and at this point it has become a tradition, or a disease, one or the other.

All of the qualities that made wrestling stand out and be unique are being done bigger and better right now. Violence? Please, TV shows have nice, gory violence. Both physical and psychological. Better than any chair shot. Controversy through nudity? It's not 1995 anymore, Hollywood learned a long time ago that sex sells and if bra & panties matches were edgy a decade (or more ago), now they're tame compared to everything else on TV. We're on sex overload and have been for many years. If we want sexy girls, wrestling will be the last place to look for them. Over the top characters and personalities? Please, the appealing characters these days are realistic and humanized to the n-th. They're taking comic books characters and humanizing them (Superman is becoming more vulnerable, Wolverine is losing his healing factor). Everything is more gritty, more realistic yet at the same time keeping the fictional factor and adding layers of drama and human psychology to the character. It's interesting, it's compelling, it tells a very human story even if the situation is some post apocalyptic bullshit. Still, it's how people would react in actuality. Meanwhile, wrestling is having Funkasauruses and Robbie E's.

Everything wrestling did and used to do is now done bigger and better. All of its redeeming qualities are completely gone and it has lost ALL of its appeal. People watch out of habit. I do and I'm willing to bet very, very few people are actually interested in what's going to unfold on the next episode. At this point I'm willing to believe that anyone who tells me he's legit interested and emotionally invested in something TNA or WWE does is full of shit.

Wrestling's always been the red headed step child of the entertainment industry. It's just been there, on the side, serving that "special" audience. And I do mean special. Like I mentioned in another post, recently I met Brodus Clay and Tensai at an autograph signing and it was my first time being in the same freakin' Zip Code with a wrestler and I was surrounded by hundreds of wrestling fans. Not to sound like an asshole, too late for that, but all of these people looked like they came out of a mental institution. They were all either morbidly obese, deformed in all sorts of ways or lacking any hygiene. A good chunk of them had legit mental issues (not that there's anything wrong with that but it added to the sad, long-ass line of people waiting for an autograph). They all seemed like social outcasts, which I'm sure a lot of them were, and they made your stereotypical nerd look like Brad Pitt. It was simply sad to look at and I felt embarrassed to be there just because of that. I share a passion with these people, none or few of which actually got their shit together. It really reflected the state of the business and who likes this stuff. There were no attractive, hip and cool people (except for me bowchickawow-wow) and as feeble as that may be, believe me your audience matters. Even what it looks like. It was just fucking sad. Like a small Comic-Con, minus the ****ty cosplay girls.

All the hype wrestling had 10-20 years ago is completely gone. Hell, even the whole debacle of whether it's fake or not and the steroid scandals are something to miss. At least it brought attention to it. Now everyone knows the deal.

Maybe that's also a part of it. Some of wrestling's charm for a while was the mystery behind how it operates. At this point people either Googled it out of curiosity or never gave a fuck. Either way, wrestling's problem is itself, it's never going to be as good or as big as it used to be, it's only getting smaller and smaller, the talent is worse and worse and the only thing that keeps improving are WWE's production values or anything money can buy. Content wise? Dog shit.

 

[MrPlatano1989]

1st off I want to say thank you for your response, I've read some of your comments on here enough to remember your name and epic sig pic lol

Now that was definitely a great read and written in a very witty way, if I had the money to hire someone to write a book on this subject it'd probably be you lol, Ive been to a couple wrestling events living in NY and I definitely have seen the type of fans you described which made it easier to laugh and visualize the truth in your story. For some fans like that, everything wrestling is always personal because their life can revolve entirely around their personal hobbies and interests. By the way where your from, get events often?

I guess even the "worst" fans are still fans, regardless of the way they watch or criticize. I hope as many as possible can at least TRY to enjoy it in a different light than they have. I definitely agree about all the other options on TV being easier to watch for the general public. I always discuss similar topics when debating about ratings. The topic of the IWC and "our" methods can get me so frustrated instantly because of the fact that this industry needs more supporters. One time I heard Josh (WZ) talk low and condescending of Al Snow. Afterwards I just lost it. I couldn't believe that a wrestling "editor" thought he could discredit a career like that of Al Snow's.

 

[Bernkastel]

With the internet being readily available on just about every modern electronic I think the term Internet Wrestling Community expands to include casual fans as well. 10 years ago when you looked at the WWE website all they had was some photos and a written recap. Now look at the site... they have videos, interviews, editorials, twitter feeds, Facebook updates, and other stuff - I'm sure most kids use the site quite often.

A smark is a fan that starts out watching a major promotion as a casual fan - usually WWE - and then branches out and starts watching other promotions like ROH, Chikara, and puro and lucha libre - which have drastically different styles - and begin to think subjectively about moves and such without bothering to learn the business and performing aspects of pro wrestling. Generally smarks know nothing about running a promotion, either from the creative side or booking side. And they are part of the minority of wrestling fans.

Passionate fans that read wrestling books, watch DVD's, and listen to interviews from wrestlers that have been in the business start to learn more about it and the way it actually works - most people on this forum fall into that category. Our opinions are basically parroting what we've heard people that have been in the business say. Like we know that Cena is a good wrestler because...

1.) We recognize that he's good for business

2.) Guys like Hogan, Jericho, Hart, Angle, Undertaker, and Michaels have endorsed him as a good wrestler.

Unfortunately we as passionate fans also fall into the minority of wrestling fans. From what I know about the entertainment business - which all pro wrestling falls under - fans won't watch something that they thing is boring, so for the WWE to keep drawing more and more casuals and doing good business despite all of these "problems" then they must be doing something right.

 

[Cereal Killer]

In the modern times, with technology developing; many have the chance to do things un-imagined in the 1990's, which can be done in a matter of seconds. Going on a home-screen device to get all of the latest news and spoilers, to interact with people and gain a load of information is the primary example. Specially for Wrestling-fans.

There's no doubt, the fan rate of Professional Wrestling has declined since 10 years ago, given the ratings, buy-rates and today's general point of view on wrestling. One of the main reasons, is the fans that go online, and whine about today's product. Every fan is entitled to their opinion, and can discuss about what is added to the product, but when you get the casual "Internet Wrestling Community" (IWC) fans raving with comments like

"Cena sucks! Only 6-year olds like him and his 5 moves" or "WWE and TNA suck now. Why can't they be like before"

, it really damages the heart of wrestling.

Allow me to explain. When you do have the "Cena haters", it encourages more and more people to jump on that bandwagon, and then causes a stir-up. You'll have so many fans discriminating the WWE's number 1 star, which will cause more complain, leading to long-term effects, such as a ratings decline or lack of interest from many fans. Now that harms Wrestling's largest promotion, WWE, beacause you won't have many fans watching, as opposed to the many fans complaining. That's not good for business, they lose money because of the lack of interest. Nobody tuning in to the show or buying the merchandise leads to no profit, because of the overall fans disliking the show. Even in the crowd, you will here them booing John Cena and cheering the heels. That doesn't make the show real enough. That's when all the whispers enter the children's minds and start to realize it's fake, and then refuse to watch, because it is not real. That's because the WWE's number one guy, the ultimate babyface, the hero of the company, the one who everybody is supposed to be cheering; yours truly John Cena will be getting booed out of the building (and his Shirt thrown back at him).

Moving on from the Cena haters, you have the "Smarks" who think they're know-it alls. They're the opposite from that. They're the people killing the show. I'm not saying all of them (like the fine fans on here), just the ones who complain about bad decisions, predictability and how obvious and unreal something is. The blame falls on them. If they don't want predictability, don't go on the Wrestling site where they REVEAL WHAT WILL HAPPEN. If something is unreal to them, it's because of the target audience for that certain story, where you have to be fair on the younger fans, because those die-hards need something to keep them tuned in, and in this case, it is a less complex storyline.

A hypocritical side is shown, when they dislike a certain star at first, until a majority think otherwise, like Fandango, who is now admire for his theme. It brings back that bandwagon I was talking about before. These fans don't have minds of their own, and when a star does one little thing the "smarks" don't like, they come crashing down on the star. CM Punk for example, he was hot in 2011 after his infamous shoot, and then when he started whining about what he wanted, certain fans started to dislike him. All because of one thing, showing they don't like the wrestlers for their talent, but for their roles in storyline. Booing and cheering them with this criteria is appalling, and is hard to get the stars over for their talent, simply because they aren't liked because of their skills. Speaking of CM Punk, remember his feud with The Rock? The fans were on CM Punk's side because he was the one their week after week, whereas fans tune in because of The Rock, from the days he does show up. Anyhow, when The Rock went against John Cena, that's when the fans were on The Rock's side, even though he was still part-timing.

So I agree with you that some of the IWC fans are a problem in Wrestling today, and need something to change their judgement, instead of their ludicrous, bias statements. If something they don't like is done, they never think of why this doesn't happen. Like in 2002, The Rock beat Hulk Hogan at Wrestlemania and the fans weren't too happy, whereas if he won, we would have got complaints like

"The nWo Story has gone on for too long now" or Hogan's time is up, why is he still burying talent?"

Had Hogan won, how else would the nWo had ended, and what else would have been a better way of Hogan turning Face, than accepting his loss and helping The Rock with Scott Hall and Kevin Nash. Fans don't think of the other side of things and are effectively damaging the product. If Cena was that bad, who on Earth would have carried on the WWE from 2009 till 2011? If it was somebody like Batista or Randy Orton, why weren't they bigger than Cena, given that he was disliked by many? These fans need to wake up, and help bring Wrestling back on its feet, not keep it down for longer than it already has been.

 

[MrPlatano1989]

Unfortunately we as passionate fans also fall into the minority of wrestling fans. From what I know about the entertainment business - which all pro wrestling falls under - fans won't watch something that they thing is boring, so for the WWE to keep drawing more and more casuals and doing good business despite all of these "problems" then they must be doing something right.

Exactly! I could list some things that I feel can be done better in WWE, but I would be lying if I said they don't know what they are doing. Most people don't give them credit where its due. I still can't believe that in 2013 we were able to have an event that featured Lesnar, Undertaker, & The Rock on the same card! Fans would have called that impossible, or an ultimate dream card years ago. Today some say it was flat and another disappointment. For me it was exciting, I mean it hasn't even been a year since Brock actually returned and shocked the world.

A hypocritical side is shown, when they dislike a certain star at first, until a majority think otherwise, like Fandango, who is now admire for his theme. It brings back that bandwagon I was talking about before. These fans don't have minds of their own, and when a star does one little thing the "smarks" don't like, they come crashing down on the star. CM Punk for example, he was hot in 2011 after his infamous shoot, and then when he started whining about what he wanted, certain fans started to dislike him. All because of one thing, showing they don't like the wrestlers for their talent, but for their roles in storyline. Booing and cheering them with this criteria is appalling, and is hard to get the stars over for their talent, simply because they aren't liked because of their skills.

I always think about the various wrestlers that go through this cycle with some fans. In the sports world players can carry a certain level of respect and legitimacy for their entire career and even after. Even today no one questions the way Jim Brown played, his skill set. In wrestling fans want people to rise to the top and fall out the company in the span of months or 1 year. Does that even make sense? We have seen, especially with CM Punk, that WWE could put someone in various roles throughout the years, "bury him", then take the steps to make him a legit top star. There were many points that I gave up on his chances and look at him now. People should remember this and remain patient through the roles they dont like, THEN see where it all goes in the long run. Bully Ray has proven there's always time in someones career to reach the top.

As for the various wrestlers that go through this cycle. Cena is an obvious big one. Seemed like everyone wanted him to be the ultimate champ, saw something special in him, passion. Once his legacy started to unfold they hated him.

Jeff Hardy in 2008 was so popular and fans will cry because they never saw Vince giving him a chance at being champ. A champ that will be different and exciting. Became champ in a 3 way with Edge and Hunter, world went crazy. A few months later as a legit main eventer, they would bash him. Today in TNA some rip him apart, even if he looks to be in his prime.

RVD always had a special look and feel to his presence. This is why people wanted him to beat Triple H all those years ago. The thought of him ever returning to wrestling full time was a hopeless wish. He did just that in TNA and it didnt take long before some fans didnt "care" for him.

I've even heard many people complain about Ziggler in that past. Now, of course that same fanbase probably loves him. I'm also pretty sure its not gonna be too long before some fans call him boring and say he was never champ quality. I disagree of course.

I like wrestlers for their talent, knowledge, experience, and history. Some people think Al Snow is a mid card joke, I see a man that was a 15 year vet before the Attitude Era was even in full swing. Must have seen this business change various times, another level of knowledge. Today a top TNA executive and a big part of OVW. A 30 year vet sounds perfect for those roles, regardless of title wins.

Ray Lewis has an incredible speech about his 17 year storied career in the intro to Madden 13. His words can relate to any profession especially wrestling. Every wrestler carries their history and legacy on their back. This alone should earn them the respect they deserve, regardless of their storylines roles over the years.

 

[Zeven_Zion]

1st off I want to say thank you for your response, I've read some of your comments on here enough to remember your name and epic sig pic lol

Now that was definitely a great read and written in a very witty way, if I had the money to hire someone to write a book on this subject it'd probably be you lol, Ive been to a couple wrestling events living in NY and I definitely have seen the type of fans you described which made it easier to laugh and visualize the truth in your story. For some fans like that, everything wrestling is always personal because their life can revolve entirely around their personal hobbies and interests. By the way where your from, get events often?

I guess even the "worst" fans are still fans, regardless of the way they watch or criticize. I hope as many as possible can at least TRY to enjoy it in a different light than they have. I definitely agree about all the other options on TV being easier to watch for the general public. I always discuss similar topics when debating about ratings. The topic of the IWC and "our" methods can get me so frustrated instantly because of the fact that this industry needs more supporters. One time I heard Josh (WZ) talk low and condescending of Al Snow. Afterwards I just lost it. I couldn't believe that a wrestling "editor" thought he could discredit a career like that of Al Snow's.

I wouldn't apply any kind of credibility to any personality on any wrestling dirt sheet, editor or columnist or neither. These guys are as regular as you and I. The best case scenario is that they took some kind of journalism course or got a degree in it, or they had a minor position in a wrestling company somewhere. They don't know more or less than you or I, only their opinions and views get highlighted more than ours because they're given a platform.

Also, a while ago someone on another forum dug up comments from some of the first Internet fans in the 90's, smack dab in the middle of the Attitude Era and the Monday Night Wars. I swear, I got a kick out of it because the comments thrown around are IDENTICAL to what the IWC is saying today about TNA, WWE and the people within them. Every comment about Rock and the hate he was given was damn near a duplicate of what people say about Cena. I read a lot of HBK hate, him getting stale, being a drug addict and gay. I read tons of hate on WCW for the same reasons TNA's hated today, only WCW fans had a lot more ammo and made more sense because, at the time, WCW was truly better.

Then if you fast forward to 2002-2005 and read some of that for TNA in particular you'd notice as much hate as today, if not more. They're bush league, they have no stars, it's all spots, blah blah. This is the same TNA that so many people consider as back then being better than WWE, being different all of this, yet the IWC gave it as much shit as it does now and if you don't know what TNA was you'd think it's the worst company in the world.

My point is that whether it's 1999 or 2013, the IWC will always be the same. Judgmental, overly negative and always willing to take a dump on anything and anybody. It's just the nature of it all and I'm guilty of it too. I'll take a shit on the WWE any chance I get because I hate that fucking place. But I ain't here to fix it. I just know that NONE of our opinions matter, we're a ghost following, we've always been irrelevant and I pray with all my hear that they never listen to us because that'll hurt the business more than anything else would.

We're sexy and we know it. *dundundundundundun*

 

[scomvp316]

-I have been a longtime wrestling fan since '85
-I have always enjoyed WWE but at times not loved it but still watch it
-I never over hype one company and never bury one either
-I think the biggest problem is most of us were spoiled during the MNW
-I honestly believe SCSA became a star not so much from the WWE machine but from the fans
-Steve became hot after his famous KOTR speech
-That was well before the machine got behind him
-I have always thought the majority of the exceptional wrestlers should be faces and the ones with exceptional talking ability should be heels
-There are obviously exception to the rules on both sides of that ideaology
-Just my opinion I could be wrong and don't consider myself an expert
-I always thought that guys that can't talk unless they are in a group or have a manager as a mouthpiece should be a face
-The reason why are most faces are generic by doing things the right way all of the time where as heels have a little more depth to their character
-I will always watch WWE no matter what
-The biggest problem with the industry as a whole is that we are at a time where there aren't enough fans to enjoy other promotions
-Alot of WWE loyalists believe thats WWE is the greatest wrestling promotion and they are entitled to their opinion much like all of us are
-I am not a TNA loyalists but I don't buy into all of the WWE hype as well
-Some say well WWE is growing and I say from the under numbers inside the numbers thats not the case
-If they were growing at the rate as some have said they wouldn't need Rock and Lesnar
-I don't think WWE is losing fans just in neutral
-I think fans have over analyzed much as WWE has about the kids factor
-Nielsen Research did some analyzing and since 2005 to present WWE's growth under the current PG format have the least number of new fans that are between 7-12 under VKM's leadership
-Yes I know 2005 they weren't PG but Nielsen was comparing new potential households of the age range listed above was at its weakest since VKM was the head of the company
-Also many investment firms are staying away from WWE and not just because of the economy that goes as far back as 2002
-Such firms as Goldman Sachs and Citi are overly concerned with WWE;'s bottom line heading into the future even when they inject possible numbers WWE Network may bring in
-Some may say well those are firms that are dishonest because of the current economic state and that true but those type of firms would lie to potential investors just so the firm can get their %
-Like Heyman said a few years ago WWE will make at least 500 mill no matter what
-I am not anti-WWE just stating the facts I have heard,read, and have seen

 

[THTRobtaylor]

The biggest problem is simple... Sports Entertainment or as I like to call it "Vinny Mac Killed the Wrestling Star".

I understand the reasons that "Sports Entertainment" became the concept favored by the WWF, it took them out of the athletic commissions and helped get Vince off of his steroid beef, but even through the Attitude era, it was still primarily a wrestling show.

Once WCW was out of the picture, there was no need to persist with wrestling and Vince could proceed with his plan of making SE a mass media phenomenon and to an extent he has succeeded. WWE hasn't folded, it still draws massive ratings and crowds and is a merchandising juggernaut.

But the problem is while no one can do Sports Entertainment like the WWE, no one else can get enough of a platform to make wrestling work. The genre itself isn't dying, just horribly undernourished in terms of exposure and finance in the US so that means talent either get hoovered up by the WWE or condemned to the dreaded "indy wrestler" tag. It's soon getting to the stage where it'll be nigh on impossible for the WWE to find good US based talent, as all they have is variations of Sports Entertainment.

The proof is that the WWE is plundering the UK and Ireland for talent at the moment, where local wrestling isn't televised but is ingrained in the national consciousness from when it was just that... wrestling, with rounds, Big Daddy v Giant Haystacks and Kent Walton on commentary. The UK doesn't have any sports entertainment promotions televised but it has a lot of small wrestling shows and training schools which is starting to dwindle in the US in favor of more Vince friendly models in the hope of getting talent into the WWF.

We're soon at the point where new talent is likely to have been born AFTER the WWF became SE... once we hit that point wrestling is pretty much dead unless someone mounts a serious challenge with a wrestling promotion, TV time and no Sports Entertainment.

 

[Kidpolean]

The biggest problem is simple... Sports Entertainment or as I like to call it "Vinny Mac Killed the Wrestling Star".

I understand the reasons that "Sports Entertainment" became the concept favored by the WWF, it took them out of the athletic commissions and helped get Vince off of his steroid beef, but even through the Attitude era, it was still primarily a wrestling show.

Once WCW was out of the picture, there was no need to persist with wrestling and Vince could proceed with his plan of making SE a mass media phenomenon and to an extent he has succeeded. WWE hasn't folded, it still draws massive ratings and crowds and is a merchandising juggernaut.

But the problem is while no one can do Sports Entertainment like the WWE, no one else can get enough of a platform to make wrestling work. The genre itself isn't dying, just horribly undernourished in terms of exposure and finance in the US so that means talent either get hoovered up by the WWE or condemned to the dreaded "indy wrestler" tag. It's soon getting to the stage where it'll be nigh on impossible for the WWE to find good US based talent, as all they have is variations of Sports Entertainment.

The proof is that the WWE is plundering the UK and Ireland for talent at the moment, where local wrestling isn't televised but is ingrained in the national consciousness from when it was just that... wrestling, with rounds, Big Daddy v Giant Haystacks and Kent Walton on commentary. The UK doesn't have any sports entertainment promotions televised but it has a lot of small wrestling shows and training schools which is starting to dwindle in the US in favor of more Vince friendly models in the hope of getting talent into the WWF.

We're soon at the point where new talent is likely to have been born AFTER the WWF became SE... once we hit that point wrestling is pretty much dead unless someone mounts a serious challenge with a wrestling promotion, TV time and no Sports Entertainment.

I know everybody here loves the attitude era but the statement "but even through the Attitude era, it was still primarily a wrestling show" is completely false. The AE is where sports entertainment was born. Austin vs Mcmahon, DX, Ministry, Brood, invention of HIAC and TLC, Rock n Sock connection, come on dude the AE was all about entertainment. I dont understand how everybody praises Austin vs Mcmahon, DX, and the NWO but dont like the sports entertainment concept. The AE in my opinion was saved by the entertainment because the matches were pretty bad with the exception of the stipulation matches. I believe that DX and NWO are responsible for sports entertainment. IMO the biggest problem is the fan base. Grown ups either dont watch the wwe and call it fake or their on the internet bashing every match that doesn't involve DB or Punk. The WWE knows that and so they build their show around what children want to see.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Generally speaking, I believe the biggest problem tends to revolve around internet fans.

At one time or another, everyone of us has been guilty of thinking that we simply know more about what should happen in wrestling and what shouldn't. Then, if what we want to happen doesn't take place, we bitch about it. We complain about Vince or Bischoff or whomever happens to be in charge as being inept because we think we know better. Frankly, it's a bullshit line of thinking that's so rich that it could grow corn as high as a giraffe's eye rather than an elephant's.

That isn't to say that there aren't things that happen that we don't like and have every right not to like. Hell, that's a big part of life in and of itself. Sometimes though, we build up expectations of what we hope/want to such a degree that, frankly, no company could live up to them. Every match can't be a classic, every feud can't be one that's talked about decades later, every wrestler can't be a mega star, an event/happening that rocks the wrestling world to its core can't take place on demand or when we want it to happen, doing something unpredictable simply for the sake of it taking everyone by surprise at the sacrifice of whether or not it's actually good and/or makes sense ultimately doesn't work.

I made a thread a little while back in which I stated my personal disappointment in the mid-card title pictures of both WWE and TNA. I stand by what I said as the mid-card titles in both companies are a mess. I'd love to see the mistakes rectified. At the same time though, I'm not going to claim that I could do a better job because fantasy booking can lead to some pretty arrogant thinking. What sounds good to me might not necessarily appeal to the majority of other fans. It might not even work well at all. Those are the same sort of issues that those actually involved in the business on a major level have to face as they can't just predict what will or won't work all the time. Just because someone thinks something is pure crap or is solid gold doesn't make it the gospel truth. At the end of the day, it's all a point of view that's entirely subjective. Otherwise, we'd probably have very little, if anything, to whine about. In many cases, just like various dirtsheet writers whose work that we all read from time to time, we exaggerate perceived problems as being much greater than they probably are.

We also tend to, at times, let nostalgia romanticize wrestling's past as something that was beyond compare. For instance, in my opinion, despite all the hype & build, Hogan vs. Andre at WM III was a craptacular match. I don't particularly care how legendary they've become or that WM III was the largest attended wrestling event in US history. I think it was a lousy match just like everything that went on during the Attitude Era was some miracle of innovation and entertainment. There's always going to be good & bad, there's never been a time in wrestling it was all one or the other.

 

[DirtyD79]

Wrestling's always been the red headed step child of the entertainment industry. It's just been there, on the side, serving that "special" audience. And I do mean special. Like I mentioned in another post, recently I met Brodus Clay and Tensai at an autograph signing and it was my first time being in the same freakin' Zip Code with a wrestler and I was surrounded by hundreds of wrestling fans. Not to sound like an asshole, too late for that, but all of these people looked like they came out of a mental institution. They were all either morbidly obese, deformed in all sorts of ways or lacking any hygiene. A good chunk of them had legit mental issues (not that there's anything wrong with that but it added to the sad, long-ass line of people waiting for an autograph). They all seemed like social outcasts, which I'm sure a lot of them were, and they made your stereotypical nerd look like Brad Pitt. It was simply sad to look at and I felt embarrassed to be there just because of that. I share a passion with these people, none or few of which actually got their shit together. It really reflected the state of the business and who likes this stuff. There were no attractive, hip and cool people (except for me bowchickawow-wow) and as feeble as that may be, believe me your audience matters. Even what it looks like. It was just fucking sad. Like a small Comic-Con, minus the ****ty cosplay girls.

Sadly the Internet draws the worst of the worst of any fandom. Yesterday my brother was showing me a video of some guy acting butthurt because Kevin Matthews unfriended and blocked him on Facebook. That's right Kevin Matthews. If you don't remember or even know who Kevin Matthews was, you just proved my point. Rather than move on with his life, he instead decides to do a video chock full of swearing, insults, and of course calling himself a martyr for all the "hard work" he did doing reviews and photos for this fed. In general he's acting less like a sane rational human being and more like a hormonal teenage girl who just got dumped. What got him unfriended in the first place was doing a video where he's driving around like an asshole and whining about Kevin Matthews' fed doing shows in places other than the hick town this goofball lives in and spamming other people's facebook pages with it. And don't even get me started on the videos of "Youtube Shooters", There's a whole damn Comic-Con worth of geeky buffoonery going on in them.

So now if you weren't a wrestling fan and you stumbled onto videos of assclowns like these would you want to be around wrestling fans? NO! You'd think every wrestling fan was a geeky, overentitled manchild. We have met the enemy and he is us. Granted a lot of the stereotypes about wrestling fans have existed long before the IWC, but it doesn't help our case when we keep on perpetuating them and giving the haters plenty of ammo to use on us. I guess what I'm trying to say is we wrestling fans really need to get our proverbial shit together.

 

[IT Factor]

There isn't just one major factor in wrestling's "biggest problem". It is a lot of things; no stars being established, horrible booking, and the dying art of wrestling itself. Wrestling isn't wrestling anymore and when you move away from what made you successful, you will fail. Especially when you stop listening to your fan base like WWE and TNA have. Fan reaction isn't the gauge for anything and both companies blatantly ignore their fans. Until wrestling is brought back to wrestling and all companies base their direction on fan reaction, pro wrestling as a whole will continue to deteriorate and decline. Sad, really. Especially considering that this generation is capable of doing great things unseen in the sport.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

I know everybody here loves the attitude era but the statement "but even through the Attitude era, it was still primarily a wrestling show" is completely false. The AE is where sports entertainment was born. Austin vs Mcmahon, DX, Ministry, Brood, invention of HIAC and TLC, Rock n Sock connection, come on dude the AE was all about entertainment. I dont understand how everybody praises Austin vs Mcmahon, DX, and the NWO but dont like the sports entertainment concept. The AE in my opinion was saved by the entertainment because the matches were pretty bad with the exception of the stipulation matches. I believe that DX and NWO are responsible for sports entertainment. IMO the biggest problem is the fan base. Grown ups either dont watch the wwe and call it fake or their on the internet bashing every match that doesn't involve DB or Punk. The WWE knows that and so they build their show around what children want to see.

Sports Entertainment as a show concept was born in 1983 when Vince bought the WWF from his dad and signed Hogan... it took until 2001 for it to fully take over once there was no competition from other wrestling shows.

The Attitude Era was not solely sports entertainment, for every "bad match" you mention of that nature there was a Taka Michinoku v Aguila match or a Jericho/Benoit/Eddie match. Wrestling still mattered and WWE was still even then trying to get wrestling matches over and legit competition albeit not doing it very well in most cases like Brawl For All. Guys like Ken Shamrock, Dan Severn and Steve Williams were not there to be sports entertainers, they were there to lend legitimacy to the show to cater for ALL fans.

Once WCW was gone, there was no need to do that, Sports Entertainment had won out and that's what we got ever since from the WWE. The fact that TNA pretty much copied them fuelled it but that much of their current top and new talent has come from "indy wrestling" simply shows up that the Sports Entertainment model is at best flawed and at worst murdered the future of the industry.

"Grown ups" want to watch wrestling, like they watched when they were kids which was a hybrid product, equal part's of Vinny Mac's vision with old school wrestling or in the Attitude era where it was freshened up with more adult themes but still with enough of the cheese to make it still "wrestling"...

I defy anyone on this board to openly admit to their friends, work colleauges etc "I watch Sports Entertainment on the weekend" or "I am going to see the Sports Entertainment on Monday, wanna come?" they will say "I am a wrestling fan." End of story.

 

[IT Factor]

Yet another problem I didn't mention above was the element of surprise is virtually non-existant these days. With the invention of the internet and dirt sheets, nothing comes as a surprise. Brock Lesnar is returning? We already know it before it happens. The Rock returns? It's on the dirt sheets. WWF & WCW thrived on shocking television back during the "Monday night wars" and that was what kept everybody tuning in each week. If you miss a show these days, it's no big deal. You can simply watch it on the net or Hulu[WWE]. Or you can read the results online. We have full show spoilers before some of them even air. Sometimes the IWC can be its own worst enemy. But to blame fans is just wrong. It is the responsibility of these wrestling or "entertainment" companies to come up with something innovative or new. Creating something new in wrestling is hard, which is why we get the same rehashed storylines over and over. Until WWE, TNA, and other companies can figure out a way to beat the spoiler system and return the element of surprise, most casual fans will not care enough to tune in each week. To be honest, I think it is mostly just us older fans watching nowadays and that is more a routine than anything else. God knows, the quality of the shows aren't nearly what they used to be.

 

[Kidpolean]

Sports Entertainment as a show concept was born in 1983 when Vince bought the WWF from his dad and signed Hogan... it took until 2001 for it to fully take over once there was no competition from other wrestling shows.

The Attitude Era was not solely sports entertainment, for every "bad match" you mention of that nature there was a Taka Michinoku v Aguila match or a Jericho/Benoit/Eddie match. Wrestling still mattered and WWE was still even then trying to get wrestling matches over and legit competition albeit not doing it very well in most cases like Brawl For All. Guys like Ken Shamrock, Dan Severn and Steve Williams were not there to be sports entertainers, they were there to lend legitimacy to the show to cater for ALL fans.

Once WCW was gone, there was no need to do that, Sports Entertainment had won out and that's what we got ever since from the WWE. The fact that TNA pretty much copied them fuelled it but that much of their current top and new talent has come from "indy wrestling" simply shows up that the Sports Entertainment model is at best flawed and at worst murdered the future of the industry.

"Grown ups" want to watch wrestling, like they watched when they were kids which was a hybrid product, equal part's of Vinny Mac's vision with old school wrestling or in the Attitude era where it was freshened up with more adult themes but still with enough of the cheese to make it still "wrestling"...

I defy anyone on this board to openly admit to their friends, work colleauges etc "I watch Sports Entertainment on the weekend" or "I am going to see the Sports Entertainment on Monday, wanna come?" they will say "I am a wrestling fan." End of story.

So your saying that the PG era doesnt have good wrestling matches...the match quality hasn't really changed. I think a lot of fans have just become bitter. The main events during the AE were usually crazy spot after crazy spot mixed with a interference and the ref being knocked down. I am here to tell the truth and not be blindly in love with the AE. The AE match quality was down right terrible. The matches that you named were always at the bottom of the card and barely got tv time. The AE was just an out of control crowd with a bunch of crazy and ridiculous stuff going on. I loved the AE but everybody talks about it like there was 5 star matches every night and that is simply not true. I am a wrestling fan and sometimes you gotta take the good with the bad just like with anything else.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Yet another problem I didn't mention above was the element of surprise is virtually non-existant these days. With the invention of the internet and dirt sheets, nothing comes as a surprise. Brock Lesnar is returning? We already know it before it happens. The Rock returns? It's on the dirt sheets. WWF & WCW thrived on shocking television back during the "Monday night wars" and that was what kept everybody tuning in each week. If you miss a show these days, it's no big deal. You can simply watch it on the net or Hulu[WWE]. Or you can read the results online. We have full show spoilers before some of them even air. Sometimes the IWC can be its own worst enemy. But to blame fans is just wrong. It is the responsibility of these wrestling or "entertainment" companies to come up with something innovative or new. Creating something new in wrestling is hard, which is why we get the same rehashed storylines over and over. Until WWE, TNA, and other companies can figure out a way to beat the spoiler system and return the element of surprise, most casual fans will not care enough to tune in each week. To be honest, I think it is mostly just us older fans watching nowadays and that is more a routine than anything else. God knows, the quality of the shows aren't nearly what they used to be.

It's not the quality of the shows. It's the quality of the performers.

Fact is, generationally speaking, the talent pool is hardly a pool anymore — more like a puddle. A small, muddy puddle baking in the desert sun getting smaller and smaller by the day while we slowly watch generational talents like Undertaker, Michaels, Hart, Angle, etc. etc. etc. succumb to age and eventually walk away from the show. Their replacements couldn't hold a candle to them. This is, to me, the most damaging thing wrestling is suffering from right now. The talent just isn't up to snuff. It's like trying to compare every NHL draft to the 2003 NHL draft. It's impossible. The 2003 draft provided the NHL with dozens and dozens of top-end superstars. Every draft since has been lucky to produce a single dozen out of it's first round.

Don't believe me? Look at the WCW roster in 1997 and tell me how any company from 2001 on could compete with it? Literally, any roster from 2001 on v. the WCW 1997 roster. It's like men v. boys.

 

[HBsam31]

I agree that it is just lack of new stars. I just remember the times where there was an actually mid card, and even the tag teams were big stars. I know making stars isn't easy, but there is definitely a shortage these days. I think this could become a major problem as these part time guys aren't going to be able to go forever.

 

[Rayne]

Oh, sweet Jesus. We needed another 'blame the IWC!' thread.

Here's the curious thing about the term "IWC"- people almost never use it to refer to themselves. Some people might say "oh, I'm on the internet, clearly I'm IWC too", but when the term is used during their own diatribes, they are clearly targeting some IWC group that they can separate themselves from. It's a theme you see over, and over, and over again- "the IWC thinks this, but what I think is clearly superior." (The technical term for this would be called a 'strawman tactic'. Look it up on the internet- all people are doing is assigning a group of easily attacked beliefs to a group that doesn't exist as a defined unit.)

If you're blaming the internet for professional wrestling's woes these days, just hop back in your time machine and take your complaints to 1993. The internet isn't going anywhere. If you don't believe professional wrestling is going through a down period right now, you're either a fourteen year-old kid who's never seen professional wrestling when it was in an up period, or an idiot with a three month attention span.

What's killing professional wrestling isn't something silly like "those fans who don't think like I do", it's increased competition. People simply have more options when seeking entertainment than they have in the past. If you're searching within professional wrestling for what the problem is, you're completely ignorant of the business environment that professional wrestling is in; television. The WWE isn't competing against just TNA- that's probably the least of their challenges. Now, there's UFC. There's low-cost, high-revenue reality TV programming. There are a LOT more channels to offer these on- and the professional wrestling companies, WWE and TNA both, aren't doing a damned thing that's going to convince someone to change the channel. Who gives a shit about how awesome Bubby Ray's heel turn is if they aren't watching in the first place? What's the point of grand six-month storylines with a one-show payoff when you can't get people to watch during those six months?

The problem is professional wrestling. It isn't cool, and lately it isn't even entertaining. I'm sure people will want to shoot the messenger on this- that's why I'm here- and they won't want to think about how, over the past few years, ratings simply staying flat are starting to be viewed as a sign of success.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

So your saying that the PG era doesnt have good wrestling matches...the match quality hasn't really changed. I think a lot of fans have just become bitter. The main events during the AE were usually crazy spot after crazy spot mixed with a interference and the ref being knocked down. I am here to tell the truth and not be blindly in love with the AE. The AE match quality was down right terrible. The matches that you named were always at the bottom of the card and barely got tv time. The AE was just an out of control crowd with a bunch of crazy and ridiculous stuff going on. I loved the AE but everybody talks about it like there was 5 star matches every night and that is simply not true. I am a wrestling fan and sometimes you gotta take the good with the bad just like with anything else.

PG CAN have good matches - and I never for a moment said that the AE had constant 5 star matches, but it did have something to appeal to all ages which the product does not currently have.

From my sig you'll see I certainly ain't an AE guy... but for every weapon filled main event there was a Ken Shamrock/Owen Hart/Dan Severn/Jeff Jarrett there to give something to the more wrestling oriented fan and a Godfather, Kaientai, Headbangers to cater to the fans of the cheesy gimmicks.

If the AE match quality was so terrible, how did Edge, Christian, Jeff Hardy, Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit, Booker T or JBL ever reach a World title or headline PPV's or Wrestlemanias?

Today's PG lacks that all round product - they aim for ratings and kids and that's it. It's all about Cena or Rock with everyone else running a distance behind in priority and percieved value with the fans. That value isn't there because it isn't there from Vince, if someone sells you the #1 product you take it without question... if there's one thats better all round, but not as shiny are you gonna buy it? Vince is locked into a mindset that Sports Entertainment is the only thing that will sustain his business while Trips at least seems in part to get that the product will ALWAYS be wrestling in some people's mind and it might be a good thing to get them back on side.

 

[Hamla305]

I am agree with "scomvp316 " all the points are valid which he mentioned here about the wrestling. I am also very fan of old Wrestlers because they fight in real sense but now a days modern wrestlers fight less and do acting more.

 

[I'm A Vince Russo Guy]

Look at when the business was rising at its most successful time.. Dennis Rodman was tagging with Hogan over on Nitro and Mike Tyson was punching HBK. The whole thing about people suddenly tuning in because this hot young wrestler called Steve Austin was up and coming is, for the most part, bullshit. I'm not putting down Austin's efforts in making the Attitude Era a success, because he was integral.. but the fact is, casual fans don't tune in because there's a cool new guy on the scene. That's only when guys they know turn up, such as celebrities or returning heroes like The Rock in the past few years. That will only give you short term boosts.. in the long term, wrestling needs to completely reinvent itself.

The casual audience want only thrills, and it's an undeniable fact that long wrestling matches = people changing the channel. Ratings reports prove that to be 99% true, week after week. Go back and watch an episode of Raw from 1998 or 1999, specifically when Russo was writing the show, and you will notice how little wrestling there is. Same can be said of nWo-era WCW, when they were hitting their peak. Remember, ratings are just marker for how much interest there is in the product overall. WWE can live off the shot in the arm WrestleMania gives them every year for only so long, before everything else catches up to them

So is the biggest problem the IWC? Partly.. but I would place more blame on the influential writers of the dirt sheets, who mold public opinion - as any media outlet does. The likes of Dave Meltzer and Wade Keller. Like Eric Bischoff said in his autobiography (paraphrasing) "I can't believe a handful of guys with so little knowledge of the business have such a large amount of influence over it." Both those guys and many more have always pushed for, in simple terms, a return to older 80's style wrestling, and that has undoubtedly rubbed off on the "IWC" via handed down thoughts and rehashed opinions. I think their ideas are flawed and outdated.

The thing is, it's obvious this philosophy has made its way into the WWE. You can even compared an episode of Raw in 1998-1999 to one in 2000-01 and see the vast difference in the presentation... Even though 2000-01 was still good, if not better than 98-99, it was the beginning of this downward spiral WWE has been on ever since. Over the past decade, the company has reverted further and further back until it has finally got to the point where they were at in about 1995-96. Dumb storylines aimed at children and cartoonish characters, with far too many pointless wrestling matches. The ratings parallel that, and that's undeniable. You can have CM Punk pouring Paul Bearer's ashes all over Undertaker, but that's not what "Attitude" was about, and it's not going to pull people in. "Attitude" was about being barraged with constant promos, skits, run-ins, hardcore matches, backstage brawls, frequent title changes, celebrities, half naked women and a mark audience that added a level of excitement to the product that a modern audience couldn't.

But "Attitude" isn't really what the majority of the IWC want anymore, or not what they think they want at least.

What WWE really needs is a total overhaul of how it presents itself, otherwise the ratings will continue to decline year by year until they finally go bust or start playing in TNA size arenas. I don't even think a return to the Attitude Era would be helpful now, either. Back in the late nineties there were plenty of people for who it was still real to them, damnit. Besides the gratuitous violence and half-naked women, that stuff won't fly today. Something vastly different that meets the modern day audience is what is needed.

So look at the TV for the entertainment direction.. what is popular now? Long serial dramas such as Game of Thrones or Breaking Bad. Things that have compelling week-to-week storylines. I'm not saying ditch the belts and the ring and have wrestlers fighting over a throne in a fantasy land.. I mean just adapt to the long serial storytelling with compelling characters that are aimed at adults. Kids will still watch.. they just want to see big tough guys beat up over tough guys, ultimately. I would say the nWo and everything surrounding it was a fairly adult oriented storyline, and Nitro was PG as far as I'm aware.

Then go to the sports direction as well, and what is popular there.. one of the things taking business away from WWE themselves? MMA. So just one thought I'm throwing out there - combine a long serial style of storytelling with action that resembles MMA more than the phony outdated grapple 'n' headlocks wrasslin' we have become accustomed to. I think ratings would quickly shoot back up, myself. Of course, a couple of smarks would bitch and whine about the bizaness being ruined, but there is always DGUSA and Chikara for them to watch.

But think about it.. there is absolutely no logic in ANY wrestling matches. Wrestling can still be fake, but take the rulebook and completely rework how matches are fought. Look at MMA and amateur wrestling for influence, add a few bells and whistles here and there to keep it exciting, and then you have something that looks like an actual sport and less like a choreographed dance routine. Add to that some HBO 24/7 style promos, write logical storylines that make you tune in week to week and you're goo to go.

Anyway, that's just one idea of mine, there could be hundreds of different ways to go. Anything other than this long dead circus act.

 

[ABMorales787]

It's not the quality of the shows. It's the quality of the performers.

Fact is, generationally speaking, the talent pool is hardly a pool anymore — more like a puddle. A small, muddy puddle baking in the desert sun getting smaller and smaller by the day while we slowly watch generational talents like Undertaker, Michaels, Hart, Angle, etc. etc. etc. succumb to age and eventually walk away from the show. Their replacements couldn't hold a candle to them. This is, to me, the most damaging thing wrestling is suffering from right now. The talent just isn't up to snuff. It's like trying to compare every NHL draft to the 2003 NHL draft. It's impossible. The 2003 draft provided the NHL with dozens and dozens of top-end superstars. Every draft since has been lucky to produce a single dozen out of it's first round.

Don't believe me? Look at the WCW roster in 1997 and tell me how any company from 2001 on could compete with it? Literally, any roster from 2001 on v. the WCW 1997 roster. It's like men v. boys.

I disagree. As big as the roster was for WCW back then, it was never used to it's proper potential and eventually that star studded roster and the politicking it cost were one of the death blows of WCW.

The only real problem I see in wrestling is WWE's oversaturated hours and TNA's lack of hours. And of course, the insaseable sea of fans that want more than what's given. There is more wrestling available today than ever before. TNA and WWE don't spend their time trying to sabotage one another. You have companies like NXT, ROH, EVOLVE, CMLL, AAA, NJPW, WWL and on to choose from as well. You have new, exciting and constantly improving talents in guys like Daniel Bryan, Ryback, Bobby Roodo, James Storm, Austin Aries and Big E. Langston. You have the old faves resurging with new life in Kane, CM Punk, AJ Styles, Randy Orton, Brock Lesnar and on. And of course there's John M*therf*cking Cena. If that man doesn't go down in history as being the "Jesus Christ" of wrestling, wrestling fan's are just not worth it.

Today's crop in my eyes, is far better than ever. And it's just going to keep getting better in my eyes.

 

[Hamla305]

I am agree with "scomvp316 " all the points are valid which he mentioned here about the wrestling. I am also very fan of old Wrestlers because they fight in real sense but now a days modern wrestlers fight less and do acting more.

Are you agree with me????
wall graphics Melbourne

 

[newwaveknight]

Okay, the people who you refer to as ruining wrestling aren't "the big, bad IWC", they're called "cynics", and they exist in ANY fandom. IWC simply stands for Internet Wrestling Community; no more, no less. To blame an entire subculture of people for the decline of wrestling is pretty damn pretentious if you ask me, especially since you are on a wrestling forum, thus making you part of the IWC. That's like stereotyping a whole race of people just because some people do follow those stereotypes.

And I don't know about you, but I have friends who watch wrestling and I don't watch it with them or discuss it with them. They want to suspend disbelief and I want to watch it analytically like the evil IWC smark that I am. I don't want to ruin the beautiful innocence of their experience with my horrendous, "view-this-analytically-instead-of-accepting-any-angle-thrown-at-me" attitude, so I get on here to discuss it with my IWC brethren. I know that, despite different opinions, we both have the same pattern of watching the shows.