The Big 3 - Who Has the Edge?

[IrishCanadian25]

In a truly unprecedented IC25 Wet Dream, the #1 and #2 greatest SHW's of all time (Vader and Andre) are being joined by the man who comes in around #5 or #6 (Big Show) for a Gimmick Match.

In most cases, Vader has a clear advantage in gimmick rounds. Let's take a look, shall we?

Submission Match

Advantage - Vader or Andre.
Disadvantage - Wight

I know Big Show CAN mat wrestle, and even that he's used a submission of two in his time. But I really feel the experience that Andre and Vader have had in Japan would make them clear favorites in this type of match, and that it would be a two-horse race. From there, it's basically a push, as Andre in his prime could mix it up with the best of them.

The caveat is that Andre relied on Bear Hugs from time to time. He's strong, but to hold a man the size and strength of Show or Vader in a Bear Hug for a period of time? Ohhh, I dunno...

Sadistic Madness, House O' Fun, etc.

Advantage - Vader or Wight
Disadvantage - Andre

Even in Japan, Andre never did major Hardcore work. Vader and Wight, being a little bit more modern, have. Andre was a master at using his size, strength, and power to his advantage in a wrestling ring, and very occassionally around the outside of it. But in a match with the hardcore complexities of these, Vader's WCW and Wight's ECW experiences will pay off huge.

In the end, I'd go with Vader, as I'd far sooner vote for a man who popped his own eye back into its socket during a match with Stan Hansen than a man who got knocked out cold by Floyd Mayweather in terms of toughness.

Ladder Match, ____ on a Pole Match

Advantage - Vader (clear)
Disadvantage - Andre

Vader's far and away advantage in this match-up will be his agility and speed. The man moves like a 200-pounder sometimes. In his prime, Vader used the top rope better than Flair ever has. He has far more balance than Andre or Wight, and while people will claim that Andre and Wight are taller and thus have less distance to travel up to reach whatever is suspended, Vader has a stronger and lower center of gravity, which would enable him to stableize the ladder and make the climb far faster.

Besides, Vader's insane enough to hit a moonsault or a splash from the ladder if he feels he needs a little something extra to put somebody out.

Last Man Standing Match, Texas Death, etc.

Advantage - Vader
Disadvantage - Andre

I hate to keep giving a nod to Wight over Andre in gimmick matches, but a fact is a fact - Andre confined himself to the immediate ring area in many cases. Outside of those ring ropes, and maybe the mats outside, he would likely be a little lost. Wight has ventured away from there a bit.

However, Vader has been in matches that tested his creativity far more than the other two. White Castle of Fear. Texas Death. The man has put together wins away from the ring. And anyone who feels unsure about Vader's ability to beat someone within and inch of their lives need only watch the feud in WCW with Foley, winning back the WCW World Title from Ron Simmons with a sick series of shoulder breakers, and the Strap Match with Sting.

Dog Collar, Russian Chain, Bullrope, etc.

Advantage - Even

These matches are the wild cards. In ALL cases you have the requisite of having to DRAG a prone opponent from post to post. Think of that - one of these guys will have to incapacitate BOTH opponents, and then somehow drag BOTH of them to be able to touch 4 corners. Sick!

I'll give a slight advantage to Vader based on conditioning. The man once wrestled well in excess of 40 minutes in a one-night tournament en route to his first IWGP Title, so I feel Andre and Wight would gas before Vader would.

This match takes place in Philly, not Denver, so Vader loses that home-field air advantage. But Andre and Wight just waged a WAR with one another, and nobody won. Vader, on the other hand, hasn't even been remotely tested. Not once. He has the momentum of easy victories, he is fresh. Andre and Wight come in tired, hurt, and on a one-match winless streak.

I look for Vader to win by a 45-10-10 margin.

 

[NSL]

I'm far from an expert on any of these guys, but let me lend a thought on a possible situation in a strap match, and why I think it favors Vader.

Andre The Giant is a large man. He's a strong man. If he doesn't want to move, he won't. Big Show and Vader will know this. Vader is a smarter heel than Big Show, and will use that to his advantage. He will have Show help him drag Andre, making it easier on both of them. Both men will touch the first 3 corners, because they've both got the same thing on their mind. As they are heading for the last corner, Vader low blows Show, sending him to the mat. He drags both men to the last corner, winning the match.

Big Show isn't as crafty, and isn't nearly as tough, as you stated with the Mayweather KO...Twice. Andre is a great wrestler, but there's nothing he could do against two men the size and strength of Vader and Show.

 

[Uncle Sam]

You really screwed yourself over when you did this with Yokozuna, Canadian. Tread carefully. I don't want to have to pull out the "turtle effect" argument again.

Now, a quick trip to Wikipedia confirms what I thought - Vader and Andre only have one commonly used, legal submission move; the bear hug. Now, don't get me wrong, I too think that The Big Show wouldn't be able to get his head around the intricacies of this move. I mean, he hasn't been to Japan... probably. Where else is someone going to get taught such a difficult and complex move like the bear hug?

As for Vader being more agile and having the advantage in the ladder match, well, like Luther said, the more agile man doesn't actually have the automatic advantage in the ladder matches. Matter of fact, it's very often the more agile man's jobs to take the bumps, and the bigger man's job to give them out.

As for overall, I dunno. I reckon Vader is fucked when you take into consideration that this could turn into a group bear hug.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

How delightfully homoerotic, Sam. Again, the bear hug is really only effective when used on somebody smaller than you. The reason big guys use the bear hug is to highlight size and weight advantages. Of course, I've also never seen anyone other than a jobber lose to a Bear Hug.

Anyway, what Sam says about Yokozuna is true - last year with Yoko taking on The Undertaker in this round, and 16 match options available, I figured out that 12 of the matches favored Yokozuna significantly, while 4 favored The Undertaker. I was objective about them, and I think most people agreed with my 12-4 ratio.

Alas, one of the 4 was chosen, and even I had to concede that The Undertaker would defeat Yokozuna in a Last Man Standing match. I don't think I even ventured an argument, because I knew what was right.

But in a match with three SHW's, where all three men boast amazing size and stength, that all negates. But Vader's agility and speed is a bonus. He doesn't sacrifice power or viciousness for his agility - he's just that much better than the other two.

The other side of Vader is the conditioning. People say he is "fat," but he's actually in pretty good shape. He's been in long, greuling matches and still puts on his "A" game. Wight and Andre had generally shorter and slower matches than Vader did.

I can't see many scenarios where I wouldn't honestly put Vader over Andre and Big Show. He's as strong as either, as technically sound as Andre, and brutal as Wight, and more agile and fortuitous than both.

 

[Uncle Sam]

How delightfully homoerotic, Sam.

Wasn't actually intentional. Must be my subconscious self trying to out me. I hate that guy. Always getting me into trouble, he is.

Again, the bear hug is really only effective when used on somebody smaller than you. The reason big guys use the bear hug is to highlight size and weight advantages. Of course, I've also never seen anyone other than a jobber lose to a Bear Hug.

Well, it's the only submission these guys probably know, so - should they draw that match - they'd be hugging each other until they passed out.

Alas, one of the 4 was chosen, and even I had to concede that The Undertaker would defeat Yokozuna in a Last Man Standing match. I don't think I even ventured an argument, because I knew what was right.

But in a match with three SHW's, where all three men boast amazing size and stength, that all negates. But Vader's agility and speed is a bonus. He doesn't sacrifice power or viciousness for his agility - he's just that much better than the other two.

Still, I think the other two are stronger. Point taken though.

The other side of Vader is the conditioning. People say he is "fat," but he's actually in pretty good shape. He's been in long, greuling matches and still puts on his "A" game. Wight and Andre had generally shorter and slower matches than Vader did.

I honestly don't know why you didn't come out in support for Samoa Joe. It's a real head-scratcher.

 

[Captain America]

Of course, I've also never seen anyone other than a jobber lose to a Bear Hug.

Hulk Hogan is the furtherest thing from a jobber as humanly possible and he's lost by a bear hug before and Hogan's a guy who you can count on one hand the number of times he's lost via a submission hold.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS1qUVnUdC4

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Wow, I never counted Hogan as having lost via Bear Hug - never knew he did!

Man, things were different back then. Sleeper holds and bear hugs won matches. Never see that with a big name now...

 

[Captain America]

Wow, I never counted Hogan as having lost via Bear Hug - never knew he did!

Man, things were different back then. Sleeper holds and bear hugs won matches. Never see that with a big name now...

Back than? Dude this match took place a little over 6 years ago. That's not too long ago when you consider how long wrestling's been around.

 

[DhA]

I actualyl don't care about this macth tbh, these kind of wrestlers are just scenery - people complain about Kane being a jobber but these guy's main purpose was to be the guy that the real stars beat to look good. No way I would want to watch any of these match possibilites in real life.

 

[jmt225]

If you want to talk about kayfabe terms, I would have to give the edge to the Big Show. Show has way more "gimmick" matches under his belt than either of these two, he's been in a bunch of Three-Way matches, Show is BY FAR the smartest out of the three, and he matches strength and stamina with both of them, that is if he doesn't have the flat out advantage in those two areas either.

Unless Vader and Andre would conspire to get rid of Show early on in the bout (which neither were smart enough to ever do), then I don't see how either survive. Show is smart enough to let Vader and Andre beat the hell out of each other, and then make his attack.

There's absolutely no way Big Show would ever lose this match if it happened.

And as far as work-rate goes, Show is better and more accomplished than both of them at that too, in my opinion.

That said, I guarantee Vader still wins this. His fan support is just too large on this forum. People here believe in him like ECW fans believed in Taz. And Vader deserves a lot of credit for being that believable.