The Best Things Come in 3's

[Big Sexy]

This is a new thread series to get some more conversation in here because it is currently lacking. Here is how this works. A poster will come up with a top 3 list, for example: top 3 point guards of all time, top 3 current NFL qb's, top 3 NHL franchises, ect. It can be any kind of list from any sport. That poster will then make and explain their choices. After that it's free game for anyone to come in and make their own choices and hopefully start some good debates. After a couple days someone else can come in and give another top 3 list and it all starts over again. The one thing I ask for in this thread is that you give at least 48 hours between lists so there aren't 10 lists going at once and getting lost in the shuffle. I'll start it off.

Top 3 NBA Point Guards Ever
1. Magic Johnson- This is an easy one. He is a 5 time NBA champion, 3 time league MVP, and a hall of famer. His career avaerages of 19.5 ppg, 11.2 apg, 7.2 rpg, and 1.9 spg are amazing. He was the back bone of the showtime Lakers and he along with Larry Bird and Michael Jordan helped bring the game of basketball to a new level in terms of popularity. Magic could have been an all star at all 5 positions with his 6-8, 215 pound frame and great ability, but at the point he was the greatest ever,

2. Oscar Robertson- The Big O was LeBron James well before James was even born. He wasn't quite as big as LeBron but for his time he was a man amongst boys at the point guard position. He is the only player in NBA history to average a triple double for a season. He was also a 1 time NBA champion and 1 time MVP. His career averages of 25.7 ppg, 9.5 apg, and 7.5 rpg are mind blowing.

3. Isiah Thomas- Zeke is one of the more underrated players ever. All people want to do nowadays is talk about his failings as a GM and they fail to look at the fact that he is one of the 3 greatest point guards ever. Pound for pound he was one of the best, toughest players the league has ever seen. Even though he was just 6'1 180 pounds he could score with the best of him and was also an elite defender, passer, and ball handler. He led the Bad Boy Detroit Pistons to 2 NBA titles. He has tremendous career numbers of 19.2 ppg, 9.3 apg, and 1.9 spg. His 45% shooting for his career was also spectacular considering his size.

 

[Megatron]

I agree with your first two, so no need for me to ramble on about them. As for your third choice, however, I'd go with a guy that's still going strong in the NBA and has been one of the best shooters of our time. That's Steve Nash. BS, I know you are a Pistons fan so it shouldn't be a surprise that you picked Thomas, and rightfully so (I'd have him at 5, behind Gary Payton as well). However, not only has Nash been one of a handful of PGs to ever win the MVP (let alone twice), but Nash has constantly turned teams that didn't look like much into perennial playoff contenders (like during his first and 2nd years in Phoenix). While Thomas has an edge on Nash defensively and his overall numbers look stronger, Nash is a much stronger offensive player then Thomas ever was. Nash shot almost 4% higher from the field almost 13% higher from 3 and almost 15% from the Free Throw line. Sure, his attempts per game weren't as high, but with that much of a sample and that much of a desparity, I don't think there's much argument. I know Nash doesn't have any rings, but that doesn't mean he's a bad leader. The two MVPs show that.

While I think highly of Thomas, Nash has really shown how great he is during his tenure at PHX these past 6-7 years.

 

[Big Sexy]

I respect your opinion but could not disagree more. I wouldn't even have Nash in my top 5 let alone at three. Steve Nash benefited hugely because of the system he has played in with the Suns. He didn't even join the Suns until age 30 so he spent part of his prime with the Mavs. You go look at his numbers with Dallas and while they are good, they don't compete with his Phoenix numbers especially assist wise. Even in Dallas he had an offensive and point guard friendly system with Don Nelson. When it comes to D'Antoni's system just look at Raymond Felton. He was always a solid point guard but this year with D'Antoni he reached a new level stats wise. His points and assist numbers reached career highs. The system that Nash has been elite in is one that favors the type of point guard that Nash is. It's a constant running, fast break style that allows for shooters to get open looks and shooters are urged to shoot the ball and not turn down any type of look.

Now onto Isiah Thomas. The ONLY thing I MAY be able to give Nash over Thomas is passing ability and even that isn't a lock. Thomas is easily the better defender, the better scorer, and the more successful of the two. Nash has a better career shooting % because he wasn't a scoring point guard. He was always pass first and many of his buckets came on open shots and drives that were made easier by the shooters taking away defenders from the middle. Isiah was an elite scorer. This is a guy who once scored 16 points in 94 seconds to force a playoff game into OT. He's a guy who once scored 25 points in a quarter against the Showtime Lakers in the NBA Finals and he did it basically on one ankle. Isiah Thomas absolutely blows Nash out of the water in every aspect of scoring. Defense you've already conceded for obvious reasons. Thomas was part of the Bad Boys and was a very tough defender. Nash doesn't really defend at all. As for success that goes to Thomas as well. 3 finals appearances, 2 NBA titles, and a Finals MVP trumps ZERO finals appearances and a couple regular season MVP's. You also have to consider that Thomas was playing at a time when Bird, Magic, and Jordan were in their primes. In fact during Isiah's prime MJ, Magic, or Bird won the MVP every single year. Nash's first MVP came with little competition and he shouldn't have even won his second MVP. In 05-06 Kobe Bryant averaged 35.6 ppg, carried the Lakers to 45 wins, and should have won the award. Isiah is just superior to Nash in almost every single way.

Nash, and Payton for that matter, are top 10 point guards but they are more towards the end of the top 10 and certainly not at 3 and 4 ahead of Thomas.

 

[Megatron]

Did the system Nash play in elevate some of his numbers with the up tempo pace? Sure. But even so, shooting 49-45-90 is much more impressive then 45-29-75 from Thomas, open looks or not. And Nash was the sole reason why the Suns had as huge improvement as they did his first year there. Sure, Amare, Joe Johnson, and Marion were great weapons, but Nash was the cog that made it work. Without him, they aren't the #1 seed and getting 50+ wins.

You talk about Isiah's games, while great, it's not like Nash hasn't had some remarkable ones of his own. Game 6 of the 2004-05 playoffs against the Mavs, Nash puts up a game high 39 in an overtime game. He also put up 48 in Game 4 of that game, but no one else scored more then 19 and due to their lack of defense still lost by 10. The following year he helped the Suns come back from a 3-1 defecit on the Lakers, where he put up 32-13 in Game 6 at LA (which went into OT). Not only that, but his career playoff numbers (pts, assists, rebounds) are slightly up from his season numbers, so it's not like he was falling under the pressure.

And the whole 'Thomas has won a title means he's better' talk is bull. I didn't know those two were the only two players on a team. As much as Dantonio's systemhelped his teams offense, they were never going to win a title because they didn't learn of the concept of defense. It wasn't Nash's fault he was playing the system his coach had him in. And Thomas played on the Legendary Bad Boys Pistons teams. He wasn't with a bunch of scrubs or a bad coach. How about the fact that Nash was one of only a handful to win back to back MVPs (whether you think he deserved it or not is irrelevant) on a team that exceeded expectations both years because of Nash. Or that he's one of very few to have 50-40-90 shooting seasons (only Larry Bird, Mark Price, and Reggie Miller have accomplished this) and Nash has done it 5 times. I'd take Nash offensively due to his insane shooting numbers and ability to create (not that Thomas couldn't, but Nash did it better) and because he wasn't surrounded with HOFs like Joe Dumars, Rodman, Adrian Dantley and other talented guys like Laimbeer. Sure, Stoudemire was great (although he was out in Nash's 2nd MVP year with injury). Nash couldn't control the talent around them, but he had many of them exceed expectations.

 

[Big Sexy]

Did the system Nash play in elevate some of his numbers with the up tempo pace? Sure. But even so, shooting 49-45-90 is much more impressive then 45-29-75 from Thomas, open looks or not. And Nash was the sole reason why the Suns had as huge improvement as they did his first year there. Sure, Amare, Joe Johnson, and Marion were great weapons, but Nash was the cog that made it work. Without him, they aren't the #1 seed and getting 50+ wins.

The sole reason? Amare is a perennial all star, Shawn Marion when he was in Phoenix was also a consistent all star and while Joe Johnson was young he was also a very good player. When the Suns were winning 50-60 games a year Nash was surrounded by weapons and guys that fit the D'Antoni system perfectly. Once those guys started leaving the win total went down. Nash's age also contributed but don't act like he played with scrubs thorughout his career. With the shooting % you once again have to look at the offense. Nash was consistently getting wide open looks and easy drives to the basket. His shooting numbers benefit greatly from the offense and the fact that he wasn't the number one guy.

It's also ludicrous for you to use shooting % as the sole stat for what makes a player better offensively. Let me give you some examples. Beno Udrih and Ty Lawson both shot over 50% from the field this year. Chris Paul shot 46%, D Rose 44.5%, and Russell Westbrook 44%. According to your logic that would make Udrih and Lawson better offensive players then Derek Rose, CP3, and Russell Westbrook. See how silly that sounds? Isiah Thomas was always Detroit's number one or two scoring option and when it came to crunch time he was the go to guy no matter what. He didn't get the benefit of tons of open looks because there would be many times that he'd get double teamed. Because of the offense he was in and the players he had around him it was rare that you'd see Nash get double teamed.

You talk about Isiah's games, while great, it's not like Nash hasn't had some remarkable ones of his own. Game 6 of the 2004-05 playoffs against the Mavs, Nash puts up a game high 39 in an overtime game. He also put up 48 in Game 4 of that game, but no one else scored more then 19 and due to their lack of defense still lost by 10. The following year he helped the Suns come back from a 3-1 defecit on the Lakers, where he put up 32-13 in Game 6 at LA (which went into OT). Not only that, but his career playoff numbers (pts, assists, rebounds) are slightly up from his season numbers, so it's not like he was falling under the pressure.

Nash has had some great games too no doubt because he is a great player but his great games just don't compare to the legendary ones that Isiah has had. Nash's playoff numbers while great still aren't as good overall as Isiah's just like his regular season numbers on the whole aren't as good as Isiah's.

And the whole 'Thomas has won a title means he's better' talk is bull. I didn't know those two were the only two players on a team. As much as Dantonio's systemhelped his teams offense, they were never going to win a title because they didn't learn of the concept of defense. It wasn't Nash's fault he was playing the system his coach had him in. And Thomas played on the Legendary Bad Boys Pistons teams. He wasn't with a bunch of scrubs or a bad coach. How about the fact that Nash was one of only a handful to win back to back MVPs (whether you think he deserved it or not is irrelevant) on a team that exceeded expectations both years because of Nash. Or that he's one of very few to have 50-40-90 shooting seasons (only Larry Bird, Mark Price, and Reggie Miller have accomplished this) and Nash has done it 5 times. I'd take Nash offensively due to his insane shooting numbers and ability to create (not that Thomas couldn't, but Nash did it better) and because he wasn't surrounded with HOFs like Joe Dumars, Rodman, Adrian Dantley and other talented guys like Laimbeer. Sure, Stoudemire was great (although he was out in Nash's 2nd MVP year with injury). Nash couldn't control the talent around them, but he had many of them exceed expectations.

Isiah is better for many reasons and championships is just one of them. Better scorer, better defender, about equal as a passer, more successful, all of those are why Isiah is better. The system's he has been in haven't helped Nash but even if you put him on a team like the Spurs, Nash still wouldn't be that great of a defender it just isn't part of his game. I never once said Isiah played with a bunch of scrubs, in fact he played on a couple of the better teams in the league's history, however, he also happened to be the leader and the best player on those teams. Not only that but the Pistons teams he played on weren't always filled with great players. When he first got to Detroit he was carrying that team for a good 4-5 years. Nash has had some amazing talent around him in his career as well. Dirk and Amare are both future hall of fame players yet those Nash led teams in Dallas and Phoenix respectfully where he played with those guys could never even make a trip to the NBA finals. You can blame the system all you want but that is an undeniable fact.

At the end of the day you need to ask yourself, "If I had to pick between Nash and Isiah both in their primes to lead my team who would I take?" If you choose Nash over Thomas then you'd more then likely be cheating yourself out of a title or two. Isiah is the better overall scorer, the much better defender, and definitely the better point guard between the two.

 

[Big Sexy]

Top Three NFL Running Backs Ever

1. Barry Sanders- The things Barry did on the football field were nothing short of remarkable. He is third on the all time rushing list and he only played 10 years. Had he played a few more years he would be on the top of the list. The fact that he averaged 5.0 yards per carry for his career at just 5'8, 203 pounds is ridiculous. He is a former MVP, rushed for over 2,000 yards one season (with a 6.1 ypc average), and he did it all playing his entire career on shitty to average teams with the Detroit Lions.

2. Jim Brown- Brown is similar to Sanders in the fact that he put up ridiculous numbers and then retired early. However, Brown was a much different running back. At 6'2, 232 pounds he was a man amongst boys. It may not seem that big but back in the 50's and 60's it made him one of the bigger guys on the field at all times. He was a 3 time NFL MVP, won an NFL Championship, and a had a career average of 5.2 yards per carry.

3. Walter Payton- Payton is the second leading rusher all time and throughout his career he lived up to his "Sweetness" nickname. He won the MVP once and was also a Super Bowl Champion. While he played with some of the best defenses the NFL has ever seen, Payton was always the one who carried the offense.

 

[Megatron]

I have no problems with anyone on that list. It's almost too tough to distinguish the three above each other, but I think you got the order right if we have to rate them 1-2-3 (although it's probably unfair and we could go 1a and 1b with Brown and Sanders). Nevertheless, it's been a few days so I assume it's up to anyone to continue the list, so I will with the Top 3 Closers in baseball at the moment:

1. Mariano Rivera - How he still does it in his 40s I will never know. I don't see how he can be removed from this list until he starts blowing saves consistently and his key numbers (WHIP + ERA) reach abnormal heights. While he's blown a few more saves then normal already, I'd still have him over anyone even at this age.

2. Heath Bell - The toughest closer in all of the NL, and really has been since Brad Lidge has gone south some. While he benefits from closing out some of his games in the spacious Petco Park, that doesn't ignore the fact that his WHIP is only slightly higher then Rivera's (with his ERA actually being lower) and his OBA is only .254. Really has been solid for a number of years and it's a shame he's on a last place team yet again.

3. Drew Storen - Yes, the little known closer on the Nationals is having himself an all-star season early on. His WHIP is only .76, ERA is only .38, and his OBA is only .211. Those are numbers that not even Rivera can keep on a monthly basis. So why is he only 3? Simple: let me see him do it for a whole year. Yes, these numbers are downright filthy, but we are only what, 8 weeks into the season? While these numbers definitely surprised me, should he keep this up for a consistent basis he may jump up there later.

Also note that I said as of right now. Sorry Joakuin Soria, Brian Wilson, Neftali Feliz, K-Rod, and others. These are just the top 3 guys I'd want right now.

 

[Big Sexy]

I agree with Rivera at one and I also agree with Bell but I'd have him at three. When it comes to Storen he has only been in the league for two years and this is his first as a full time closer. He has put up ridiculous numbers thus far this year but I can't have him in my top 3 after one good quarter of a season. I know you are talking about right now, but right now he could easily show his inexperience and start having some struggles. I need to see more from him.

At two I instead have K Rod. He has been one of the best, most consistent closers over the last 7 years since he has been a full time closer and right now his numbers are very good. So far this season he is second in saves with 15 and he has a .76 era.