The anti-WCW/Sting commentary from WM 31 is disgusting.

[AegonTargaryen]

Hey guys, and also Hello to the Mod. I hope this is the right section in which to post this thread, as I first felt I should do it in the PPVs section but it's still about WM 31, 3 yrs ago, also about WCW and sting.

First of all I'd like to confess something- I love Sting. And I seriously mean it in the sense of admiration, awe, respect, and more. Everything about the man, both the performer and the real person. Now I know he wasn't pure and had his fair share of demons such as drug addictions as portrayed in "Sting:Moment of Truth" . But to me, Steve Borden always came across as a good person, someone just very noble and likeable(and weirdly, I really only discovered him in 2007 through the Internet/downloads/TNA, as I had never really watched WCW or even a lot of WWF until 2000 when I was 11 yrs old).
And weirdly enough, for much of my life, I looked up to The Undertaker or would've called myself a "fan". But it's different with Sting. I can't stress it enough, I just love him and a lot of it has to do with the performer/persona too. It's very hard to put it into words, it's inexplicable. I wish I could really pin it down into words but I can't. All I can say is- I love Sting.

I'm not sure if I felt the same for many wrestlers, say I really like HBK, Bret Hart, Chris Benoit for their wrestling, but I would never say I love them- the person. The closest I'd say I feel similar to Sting is Kurt Angle. Also it's obvious Kurt's not like the best person or the purest human being- considering his addictions, cheating on Karen and all that. But it doesn't matter to me, I have always felt he's (just like I felt for Sting) an awesome human being, and most would agree about Kurt-the performer- being the greatest pro wrestler of all time, one hell of a wrestler and entertainer.

So I'm watching the match for the first time ever, HHH vs Sting, and the first 8-10 minutes were good, in a purely Wrestling psychology POV. I was also expecting some WCW/Sting burying on commentary, as I already heard stuff during Sting's entrance.

But after these first 7-8 minutes, it's gotten just unbearable, too much vitriol and it's obvious it's Vince screaming into JBL's ears and guiding him, to the point where JBL even sounds a bit like Vince, or tries to sound like Vince. I won't even type the exact quotes out here, as I'm sure you guys remember all the WCW/Sting burying that went on around this time, and may even decide to rewatch the match.

It's like Vince and co. unleashed all their ego, their malice and vitriol towards Ted Turner/WCW/Sting all at once, and salivated and relished it while doing so. The word- for a Sting fan like me- would be Horrid, appalling, disgusting, nauseating. And I really want to enjoy the match.

I never watched this match until today because 1)the ending with HHH winning, 2)the unnecessary inclusion of all of HHH's buddies-Hall, Nash, HBK, Sean Waltman, Shawn Michaels, and to a lesser extent the New Age Outlaws, AND Hogan(who is the Wrestling equivalent of a Toxin, utterly Selfish/Cold Python, IMO).

It was 14 yrs ago, Vince Survived, WWF/E survived, so why not be a bigger man, be a little humble? They already buried a lot of WCW talent for ego's sake over the years. Why not treat Sting with the same respect as Undertaker, Shawn, or anyone else in Wrestling?

I can only imagine what Steve Borden must've felt during Wrestlemania week and on that night, and the week next, if he watched the match with commentary, and also going into the match with that result. It'd be like "oh shucks, Hogan, NWO, DX, why did I even sign up with the WWE".

Another thing that saddens me even MORE(and I can't really blame Sting for it, although a part of me can't stop wishing) is IF ONLY he joined the WWE back in 2010, if not earlier, and had at least a 3-4 yr run by 2015 and then retired.

Why?

Like I said, I love Sting so much that if I had a time machine today, I'd ensure he'd do so by 2004 itself.

The Entrance music! I don't have words for it, it's enthralling, amazing, brilliant. The Undertaker's infamous gong and funeral music seems pale by comparison, or just drab. I can't praise the music enough, nor how ICONIC and amazing Sting is, especially in his Dark/Crow persona with THIS music. It's perfect. I can't stress it enough. And the drums at WM 31, the whole atmosphere..I just wish it happened more often(Sigh).

I'm glad at least I have this one memory of Sting walking to this music a couple of times from Raw, WM, and Survivor Series.

But the fan in me can never stop wishing he did so on various Wrestlemanias, faced Taker TWICE, Shawn Michaels twice, Kurt Angle at least once if not twice, all at Wrestlemanias. And we've not even yet mentioned his potential matches with HHH, Orton, Cena, and others.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Face it, your idol doesn't care about you or what you want. His massive ego drove him to ignore your desires and only satiate his own. He waited until he was a physical shell of his former self to give you a smidge of what you wanted and that smidge came in the form of a match with a man who needed a win. Vince pulled out all the stops during the match in order to protect Sting and try to create something entertaining with the NWO and DX nostalgia (imagine the checks he had to cut to get them to show up), the heel commentator spewing vitriolic hyperbole, and Sting ultimately losing to something as deadly as a baseball bat to the skull.

It was fun. That was a shitty Mania card.where, I know this will offend the OP, the women had the best match. Vince had to throwaway the surprise of having a wrestler use the MITB in the main event just to leave fans a feeling of satisfaction.

Nothing about the Sting match to feel horrified, appalled, nauseated, or disgusted by.

 

[SSJPhenom]

I'm sorry but that was JBL's job during that match. He was the heel commentator and Sting was the face in the match. Of course JBL was going to bury Sting and put over Trips. Honestly, he didn't say anything at all out of the norm. I don't see what the problem is. At least as far as the commentary goes.

I will say, however, I think all of Sting's fears of what WWE would do to him if he signed ended up being completely founded. Sting should've won that match. That win did nothing for Trips, but it being Sting's first match in WWE and with the plan, at that time, being Sting wrestling on a part time basis; that win would've given him even more momentum then he had. Of course the hardcore fans knew who Sting was, but the kids and casuals who started watching in the 2000's or later wouldn't have really known who he was and how big of a deal he was. I'll always maintain that Sting should've went over that night and I'll never understand the thinking behind Trips' victory.

 

[ilapierre]

The commentary of that Sting/Triple H match was so atrocious. Even if it was just JBL playing a 'heel', he sounded like such a goof reciting every obnoxious thing being dictated to them over his headset. The entire commentary team sort of just let JBL speak on their behalf with only Lawler jumping in once or twice with anything rational to say. WWE would never ever showcase Sting, a non-WWE creation, as dominant on their main stage. I have ALWAYS felt the same as you about Sting. He has such moral quality in his character that endears him to the fans. He's willing to do what's best for the company and doesn't act like one of the egomaniac main eventers all stabbing each other in the back. And he was more than willing to put Triple Z over at Wrestlemania. Sting could have had a fantastic career in WWE had he been a WWE creation. Unfortunately, he was the figurehead of WCW. His character was so over in the late 90s and he, along with the NWO, almost put the WWF under. Sting was 100 percent right in being hesitant in signing with Vince who surely would have tried to destroy him. Sting's reluctance to join WWF is actually something that made him that much more admirable to me. I love how he was strong willed enough not to sell out. I love how he knew how WWF would try to diminish him like they did to all the guys who came over from WCW. I always believed he would wait until the end of his career to show up for one big match and I'm pretty happy it turned out as well as it did since he was something like 56 at the time.

 

[Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D.]

Relax. Have you heard Michael Cole's commentary from 2010 to 2011? That was attrocious. JBL was fine as a heel commentator.

First things first. Sting lost because WWE had no future plans for him at that point. Sting and WWE thought that this was Sting's final match. So, he lost.

Secondly, had we not got NWO, DX and HBK interfering, the match would be forgettable at best. That was the big moment of the match. Watching DX and NWO face off.

I'm sorry, but Sting didn't have the balls to leave TNA and go to the WWE and aim for a higher legacy.

Vince had plans for Sting to beat Angle at WM 18, face The Rock at WM 21 and face Taker at WM 27. Triple H was option #3 that year, behind Lesnar and Sting.

When Sting arrived, it was too late for him to do anything other than what we got.

 

[therockiswwf]

The commentary of that Sting/Triple H match was so atrocious. Even if it was just JBL playing a 'heel', he sounded like such a goof reciting every obnoxious thing being dictated to them over his headset. The entire commentary team sort of just let JBL speak on their behalf with only Lawler jumping in once or twice with anything rational to say. WWE would never ever showcase Sting, a non-WWE creation, as dominant on their main stage. I have ALWAYS felt the same as you about Sting. He has such moral quality in his character that endears him to the fans. He's willing to do what's best for the company and doesn't act like one of the egomaniac main eventers all stabbing each other in the back. And he was more than willing to put Triple Z over at Wrestlemania. Sting could have had a fantastic career in WWE had he been a WWE creation. Unfortunately, he was the figurehead of WCW. His character was so over in the late 90s and he, along with the NWO, almost put the WWF under. Sting was 100 percent right in being hesitant in signing with Vince who surely would have tried to destroy him. Sting's reluctance to join WWF is actually something that made him that much more admirable to me. I love how he was strong willed enough not to sell out. I love how he knew how WWF would try to diminish him like they did to all the guys who came over from WCW. I always believed he would wait until the end of his career to show up for one big match and I'm pretty happy it turned out as well as it did since he was something like 56 at the time.

They probably would have treated younger Sting very well. His fear of how they treated WCW guys wasn't uncalled for but he didn't see the whole picture. WWE did have way bigger stars. Booker T and DDP were not near Rock or Austin in terms of star power. Sting did have star power and that was something the Invasion really needed. The entire reason Austin joined the Alliance was because they needed a big star.

Sting said his initial reluctance was how he would be treated but later on became more about commitment. That is why his deal for WMX8 fell through. Schedule was too much. TNA paid him pretty well for not a lot of work. I might be alone on this, but that is very likely the reason he waited so long after he got over the Booker T thing.

I'm sorry but that was JBL's job during that match. He was the heel commentator and Sting was the face in the match. Of course JBL was going to bury Sting and put over Trips. Honestly, he didn't say anything at all out of the norm. I don't see what the problem is. At least as far as the commentary goes.

I agree with this 100%.

That was a shitty Mania card.

I disagree with this 100%. Thought that Mania was pretty damn good.

Onto the thread.

NWO/DX was an awesome moment. No, it didn't make much sense but who cares? They did that to hide Sting/HHH not being able to do much (go back and really watch them, it was a lot of hoopla to hide what they did). Listen to the crowd when DX/NWO came out and tell me it sucked. It wasn't because they were HHH's friends, it was because it was cool.

Sting said he doesn't get the hate for it. He enjoyed it. It was also supposed to be his only match. That is why they had him lose. I disagree with having him lose but I understand it.

They probably framed the match as WCW vs WWE because this was likely the last chance they had to do it.

 

[thebarber]

Sorry but it was what is was. Sting was never going over HHH IN 2015 IF Steiner, Nash, Booker weren't in 2002-2003.
I liked the inclusion of the now and DX, shame it couldn't have been done earlier but I didn't mind it. Nostalgia is the only decent pop left. Look at Hardys returning last year

 

[therockiswwf]

Sorry but it was what is was. Sting was never going over HHH IN 2015 IF Steiner, Nash, Booker weren't in 2002-2003.

Steiner wasn't capable anymore. Nash was filler for Goldberg. Booker was also filler for Goldberg. I don't see the correlation here.

 

[Goldie]

My main memory of WM31 as a whole was JBL unecessarily bashing Sting on commentary- and making out WCW was the minnow to WWE.
Sure WWE came out on top eventually- but WCW were a major force for a long time- and Stings earned a heck of a lot more money than JBL in his prime... and Sting is an all time legend in the business whereas JBL isn't... a painfully average performer more famous for bullying other wrestlers backstage.

On WWE turf Sting was always more likely to lose HHH... but at least the match itself was competitive and he wasn't humiliated in the ring- like he was on commentary. HHH was very respectful to Sting after the match too.... a far cry when he pinned Booker T with one hand at WM19!

However with Sting getting inured and retiring soon afterwards.... it almost seems that history will remember Sting being brought in to WWE just to lose. Which is sad.

 

[MWRedskins]

Well....do remember that JBL is the heel commentator and was doing his job. my issue was more or less on his delievery with the job and while it did sound like McMahon was feeding him the lines, he did do his job (in a bad way)

With that said, i didnt have an issue with the commentary as much as i had an issue with the match itself....i get that it was meant to be a nostalgia type of match with DX and nWo in this, but in WCW...this nWo never got along with Sting. and my biggest issue with the match was the end where they shook hands after Triple H beat him by using a sledgehammer, but again....i understand it was more of a nostalgia match. the match wasnt a 5 or 4 star match, but it was fun to see the old stars of yesterday go at it.

as for it being a bad WM that year, disagree there. i liked the ladder match (though i wasnt a fan of Bryan being in it, i felt that they should've saved his return for THIS show and had him face Demon Kane). the Seth vs. Orton match was good, though the story was pretty bad by how dumb the Authority looked...but to me the best moment of the night was the end. it ended the Roman vs. Brock match well by adding Rollins in it and gave Rollins the push he needed and added to more of the reasons why i didnt like Bryan being in the ladder match......

if it were me, i would've booked Bryan to beat Kane, have Rollins win the title then have Bryan quickly challenge Rollins to a re-match that he deserved and eventually get it.

 

[HeenanGorilla]

I enjoyed the match and the NWO/DX inclusion...but I absolutely noticed JBL's over the top pro-WWE commentary. It was a lot of "we" and "us" and I remember thinking that although he was part of WWE, he certainly wasn't a major part of the reason they eventually won. Even the recent article about Bischoff trying to sign away Bradshaw...that would have been one of the least interesting moves of the Monday Night Wars. WCW threw money down the drain plenty at that time, but paying JBL to come over when it wouldn't have been seen as a big loss by WWE fans or a big win by WCW fans just epitomizes that fact.

Maybe it was Vince feeding him lines that he had waited over a decade to say, maybe it was JBL taking credit like the 12th man on an NBA team or a backup QB that never saw any action, or a combo of both--but the commentary took away from the match. Not that it angered me or felt disrespectful, it just seemed over the top and unnecessary. It was Mania's version of Cole vomiting meaningless Rumble stats throughout that PPV. Not angering...just made me wish I could mute a specific commentators' mic, rather than mute the whole thing.

 

[Vanilla Midget]

Commentary distracting from the match is an overall problem in WWE not isolated to this match. RomanFreakinReigns is clear about their bias. They love Sting, so it's hard to tell if this issue is truly and objectively extreme within this match, or a symptom of a larger issue within commentary.

It made no sense for Triple H to go over Sting. JBL's commentary was always obnoxious, but it was on full display here. JBL was generally a heel, but towards the end of his run he'd make some babyface calls. It makes sense for JBL to hate on Sting here. Triple H and DX were clear cut heels in this match.

If Sting prevailed, the commentary here would be forgettable, as Sting would have overcome the vitriol spewed by Layfield. But he didn't, and this memory becomes more infection in the festering wound that was Sting's WWE run.

Clearly, this match was booked with the thought that Sting would wrestle at Mania 32, possibly beyond. But he didn't, he can't, and he won't.

What would improve commentary is to study the way Heenan played a heel. He put over the heels and voiced his disdain for the faces, all while still making the faces look strong. You knew Bobby feared them, you knew he hated them, but you ultimately knew that he didn't underestimate their strength or abilities.

Not everyone is The Brain though. Even Lawler at his peak mostly just marked out on the heels. He rarely talked them down, which is essential to telling the story. The heel commentator should be crooked, he should have an agenda, he shouldn't be putting himself over or burying the match.

Now we have Corey Graves. I'm a huge Graves fan, but it bugs the ever loving crap out of me that he isn't a full heel or face. He seems to just put over who he likes and crap on who he doesn't. He puts over Titus Worldwide (faces) and he puts over Miz and Co. (heels). He crapped on Enzo heel or face (understandable) but it didn't make any sense to his character.

Commentary is a bit of a lost art. They spend more time putting themselves over than focusing on the story being told in the ring. JBL played the role of the heel here, but he should have also been putting Sting over as a threat.

 

[shooter_mcgavin]

I'm sorry but that was JBL's job during that match. He was the heel commentator and Sting was the face in the match. Of course JBL was going to bury Sting and put over Trips. Honestly, he didn't say anything at all out of the norm. I don't see what the problem is. At least as far as the commentary goes.

A heel siding with the heel is one thing but a complete burial of a legends career is another. There was no excuse in JBL (and even Michael Cole) downplaying Sting's accomplishments.

As for JBL "doing his job" i am sorry a good heel commentator can still side with the heel over the face w/o doing what he did at WM31.

 

[dd23beatlesfan1]

I was highly annoyed and deeply offended when I watched the match too when it happened. And I was always team WWF/E, so I'm not a biased WCW mark.

From what I remember what was on the internet at the time, it wasn't supposed to be Sting's only match. From what I understood and was reading (admittedly, it's stuff on the internet, not the absolute final gospel), Sting was supposed to have a part time run and wrestle a few matches a year, similar to Taker. So the WWE and Triple H apologists here are wrong, no it was not logical and made sense for Triple H to win. It was obviously another opportunity for Vince and Triple H to bury WCW (again, I'm a long time WWE fan). It was obvious.

And JBL's commentary was really obnoxious, annoying and pissed me off. And yeah he was a "heel commentator," but you don't have to be a heel commentator and completely bury a guy. Listen to Bobby Heenan and Jesse Ventura for great examples. Sure they mocked and mad fun of the babyfaces, and cheered on and defended the heels, but they still put the babyfaces over in a positive way and didn't make the babyfaces seem like jabronis in the ring that didn't belong in there with the heel. Cause you know that's what good wrestling has always been. You make your opponent (babyface or heel) seem like a credible opponent and like they belong in the ring. Unfortunately the modern day WWE philosophy of heels is that you completely bury your babyface opponent and make them seem meaningless (aka: the Triple H and Stephanie McMahon method). That's exactly what JBL did here on commentary (which of course was from Vince's direction obviously). If he was "just being a heel commentator," then why didn't Michael Cole and Jerry Lawler jump in more and defend the babyface like what's supposed to happen in a babyface and heel commentator dynamic. There's supposed to be arguing/debating between the commentators. Other than a few lines of Lawler here, that didn't happen. Cole and Lawler for the most part stayed silent, and thus they were complicit in JBL's (and Vince/WWE's burial) of Sting. It was an obvious burial job, and anyone that defends it is just a WWE/Vince/Triple H apologist, plain and simple.

The DX/NWO thing made no sense but was an absolute fun moment regardless. I don't have any really bad things to say about it. Sure, yeah they're all Triple H's buddies (except Hogan), but those were the most recognizable/important members of the NWO and DX (excluding Chyna). So in order to have that moment, they had to be there. It was fun, and the crowd marked out like hell for it. It was pure nostalgia.

The ending was utter crap though. Sting goes down to a sledgehammer, then minutes later is shaking Triple H's hand. WTF? It's bad enough for Sting to lose in his first match of what's supposed to be a solid, part-time run, but then he gets up like nothing happened and shakes the hand of the guy that just hit him in the face with a sledgehammer. Utter garbage.


So to the OP, I'm not near the Sting and WCW fan that you were, but I was offended by the general match and presentation too (particularly the commentary and the ending of the match).

 

[enviousdominous]

Here's a fun vid for fanatics of Sting, and the good old days of the NWA in general.

[youtube]dYz584Ooj7o[/youtube]

Sting's expression at 7:07 is priceless.

Sting is one of those rare people who had earned even more respect from me after I learned more about them. Every story paints him as an honest and humble person who managed to build his brand without stepping on any toes and by earning the respect of everyone he worked with.

Jim Cornette mentioned on one of his podcasts that there was an incident where Dick Slater and his girlfriend Dark Journey had temporarily split up, so Dick had left for the venue for the show without taking her. She asked Sting for a ride, and he gave her one being the gentleman that he is. When he got there, someone told Dick that Sting just arrived with Dark Journey. Dick stormed into the face locker room, which was a huge taboo back then, and hit Sting so hard it temporarily knocked him out. While Sting was out, Dick held his face in a flushing toilet. Sting never took any retribution out on Dick for that, and I think it takes a Hell of a man to be able to stay composed after all that was done to him.

When the WWE finally got Sting, they really couldn't do much with him. I wish that HHH would have laid down for him. It's not like HHH needed a WrestleMania moment like that, and it would have been a well deserved addition to Sting's list of accolades. The WWE does what the WWE does, and they're the only national promotion that's worth a damn so they can afford to sell one of the greatest wrestlers of all time short. The addition of DX and the nWo just seemed stupid, it was like watching Motley Crue reunite at a bake sale. It's not like we haven't already seen DX and the nWo breakup and reform more times than was ever warranted, and it didn't make any sense for me to see the black and white nWo coming out to help Sting.

JBL? Yeah, I tune that doofus out. I don't remember his commentary because it sounded like more of the same chest beating tool bullshit that makes you wonder if anyone is a bigger mark than him. Maybe Vince was getting his catharsis through JBL, that wouldn't surprise me. It also wouldn't surprise me if JBL was just jerking off his own ego the entire time. JBL got to be a world champion because he was friends with Taker and because HHH didn't want to move to Smackdown, Sting got to be a world champion because opponents like Vader and Ric Flair respected him as a wrestler and a champion. Lord knows that when he wasn't acting like a spoiled shithead on tv, JBL probably respected Sting as well.