Survivor Series Rules -Under Review

[IrishCanadian25]

Valid points were brought up today about the voting in the Survivor Series matches. Though my OP's in those threads very clearly stated that the team with the most overall votes for survivors would win, it turns out people voted for sole survivors and felt that should be the outcome on the match. This will be under review until tomorrow.

Thank you to everyone who pointed out the issue.

 

[Mr. TM]

There is one major flaw with that, that is taking the teamwork out of a match that involves that historically, a team. The biggest argument I saw in the Team Canada thread is their ability to work as a team. There are four men in the match for each side, and the better put together team wins the match against a soul survivor.

 

[Thriller Ant]

While I get what TM is saying, I also understand the opposite point of view. I understand the way you set up the voting, IC, but I don't think that is the best way to do it. As someone pointed out in the US vs. Canada thread, what is to stop people from voting for every member of a team in order to raise their total vote count rather than just who they think will survive. I will be OK with whoever ends up winning that match, but I think the voting should be changed to two options, Team A or Team B, or the individual with the most votes is the sole survivor.

 

[Барбоса]

There is one major flaw with that, that is taking the teamwork out of a match that involves that historically, a team. The biggest argument I saw in the Team Canada thread is their ability to work as a team. There are four men in the match for each side, and the better put together team wins the match against a soul survivor.

Surely this is not a "Who you think would survive?" argument but a "How the votes are interpreted" argument.

Team Canada might have received more combined votes but more people thought Hulk Hogan would survive than any other competitor so therefore IMO he should be declared the Sole Survivor.

 

[Big Sexy]

Like I said in the US vs Canada thread, there were 11 posters who voted for every single member of Team Canada to survive as opposed to 4 posters who did the same for Team USA. That's a difference of 28 total votes. There is no one who can come up with a legitimate argument for voting every member of a team to survive in that particular match.

 

[Mr. TM]

But that would go down to every match being a soul survivor match. Many Survivor Series matches are not. A good team always does well in Survivor Series match. .

 

[Thriller Ant]

But that would go down to every match being a soul survivor match. Many Survivor Series matches are not. A good team always does well in Survivor Series match. .

This is true, which is why I think that another option for IC should be for posters to vote for either Team A or Team B. That way if TM thinks all of Team Canada should survive, he can vote for Canada, but if I think Hulk Hogan will be the sole survivor, I can vote for Team USA. Get rid of any controversy.

 

[Mr. TM]

That would clear up confusion. If I were to pick the best single person out of all those in the match, Hulk Hogan has a chance. Not to go off topic, but I of course picked Team Canada, and could argue my points for it.

But the way IC had it set up, he was being creative to give people a chance to have fun in it. If polls were more customizable, I am sure he would have went a different route.

 

[TheThirdHebner]

But that would go down to every match being a soul survivor match. Many Survivor Series matches are not. A good team always does well in Survivor Series match. .

You voted for Bret Hart, who has survived one out of the six Survivor Series style matches he's been in. Aside from that, teamwork matters less in this style of match then a regular tag. The sheer number of participants makes it a bit of a free-for-all, and the elimination factor weighs against "teamwork".

Aside from that, who's to say that, kayfabe, these guys would work well together? Edge and Jericho at their best play a heel, while Hart and Benoit were straight-arrow faces. Hogan and Austin are faces, and Angle does either equally well, whereas Michaels is best as a "tweener" type. I think that favors the US

 

[Checkmate]

There is one major flaw with that, that is taking the teamwork out of a match that involves that historically, a team. The biggest argument I saw in the Team Canada thread is their ability to work as a team. There are four men in the match for each side, and the better put together team wins the match against a soul survivor.

Well that is effectively the problem. Are we voting for the better team, or for who we think would actually win? These are two completely different things.

According to the OP in the USA vs Canada thread, we are supposed to be voting for only one team and ONLY the PARTICIPANTS we think would SURVIVE. Realistically, the people that voted for all four members of team Canada are saying that they think Canada would clean sweep USA, and while that may be their opinion, it has seriously swayed the voting.

The majority of people supporting USA have basically read the above rules and stated, "Well Canada is really good, and would take down 3 of our 4 guys, so based on the guidelines, I'm only voting for Hogan to survive." Thus, Hogan got more votes than anyone on team Canada, but Canada in total got more votes.

I stated this before in the USA/Canada thread, but follow the theory here:

If I have 10 people supporting Canada and 20 supporting USA, and all the USA guys only vote for Hogan, team USA gets 20 votes. If all 10 guys supporting Canada vote for all members of team Canada, Canada gets 40 votes, and by the logic provided, should win, even though fewer people are actually in favor of them winning.

 

[Thriller Ant]

That would clear up confusion. If I were to pick the best single person out of all those in the match, Hulk Hogan has a chance. Not to go off topic, but I of course picked Team Canada, and could argue my points for it.

But the way IC had it set up, he was being creative to give people a chance to have fun in it. If polls were more customizable, I am sure he would have went a different route.

I totally get why he did it that way, and that was a good idea so it wasn't just a Team A vs. Team B scenario. Now that we've seen it in action, however, I think we can agree that we either need clarification to keep the polls this way or change it to A vs. B.

 

[Барбоса]

But that would go down to every match being a soul survivor match.

How so? Surely if two members from the same team garner enough votes to be the first and second highest scorers then they would be considered the survivors, not just the highest being Sole Survivor.

Take a look at the Team Japan vs. Team Mexico match. Inoki, Kobashi and Misawa gained more individual votes than any member of Team Mexico. Therefore I consider those three survived the match, while Liger was eliminated

 

[Mr. TM]

You voted for Bret Hart, who has survived one out of the six Survivor Series style matches he's been in. Aside from that, teamwork matters less in this style of match then a regular tag. The sheer number of participants makes it a bit of a free-for-all, and the elimination factor weighs against "teamwork".

Aside from that, who's to say that, kayfabe, these guys would work well together? Edge and Jericho at their best play a heel, while Hart and Benoit were straight-arrow faces. Hogan and Austin are faces, and Angle does either equally well, whereas Michaels is best as a "tweener" type. I think that favors the US

The fact that many of them have tagged together before, or trained the others helps significantly. And bringing up Bret Hart's Survivor Series results are a little silly, as NONE of those matches were in his prime. From 1992-1997, that is the 6 years of Bret Hart's prime in the WWE, and he was perfect in Survivor Series in those years, only wrestling once of course, because many f those years he was main eventing the card.

 

[TheThirdHebner]

The fact that many of them have tagged together before, or trained the others helps significantly. And bringing up Bret Hart's Survivor Series results are a little silly, as NONE of those matches were in his prime. From 1992-1997, that is the 6 years of Bret Hart's prime in the WWE, and he was perfect in Survivor Series in those years, only wrestling once of course, because many f those years he was main eventing the card.

Why is it silly to cite Hart's record? You're citing the fact that some of these guys tagged or trained together, and that certainly wasn't in their primes.

 

[Mr. TM]

...are you trying to argue that training doesn't matter because it is not during their prime? Bret Hart was a jobber during his early days, but he went on to becoming the most important man in the New generation Era. And in his prime, he was perfect in Survivor Series matches, and that is what matters. Just because you are in your prime, it doesnt mean you lose your ability to tag with a former partner.

 

[Checkmate]

Realistically, nothing in the matchup matters anymore, so debating who would win is pointless. The voters have decided already that either:

A. If the rules specifically state that the TEAM with more votes wins, then Canada has already won.

or

B. If the rules specifically state that the team with the MEMBER(S) with the most votes wins, then USA should have won.


The individual participants really have nothing to do with it anymore, simply which way the format for the tournament should be. Two choices, A or B.

 

[TheThirdHebner]

...are you trying to argue that training doesn't matter because it is not during their prime? Bret Hart was a jobber during his early days, but he went on to becoming the most important man in the New generation Era. And in his prime, he was perfect in Survivor Series matches, and that is what matters. Just because you are in your prime, it doesnt mean you lose your ability to tag with a former partner.

HOw do you figure? They operate under completely different ideologies now, whereas their "training" was real-life, not kayfabe. Jericho and Edge cheat constantly, something that Hart and Benoit wouldn't put up with. Their opposing personalities and morals would destroy team chemistry.

EDIT: Also, the Rockers were a great team, but once HBK turned heel, I wouldn't think they would operate nearly as well together.

 

[Mr. TM]

If you wanted to go COMPLETELY keyfabe, Team USA would have torn each other apart. Hogan would have beef with Shawn and Angle, and vice versas, and Stone Cold would have done what he has done EVERYTIME he was with a teammate, he would have stunnered them all. You can't be completely keyfabe when your one partner's catchphrase was Don't Trust Anybody.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

First off, I'd like to send a thank you out to TheBigOneWill for doing some unsolicited legwork for me over the weekend to help me reach a quick and easy decision on the controversy surrounding the semi-final Survivor Series match. Here is the data he came up with:

1. 29 total people voted for Canada. 31 total people voted for the USA.

2. Two people - Ryahhitman316 AND The G - total ignored both the opening post AND the poll instructions, and voted for members of BOTH teams. Ryanhitman voted for all 4 Canadians, as well as an American. The G voted for 3 Canadians and 2 Americans. As a result, both of these poster's votes have been disqualified.

As a result, the decision has been reversed, and the USA will face Japan for the Gold Medal, while Canada will face Mexico for Bronze.

I will have a new format in place for these match-ups, since it's clear the way it was being run is too complicated for people, especially those who do not read OP's for instructions.

 

[Mr. TM]

I am not comletely sure what happened here, If Canada loses those 7 votes against, and USA loses those 3 votes against, Canada still has a lot more votes for. The rules stated that the nation with the most votes for would win. After the subtraction, Canada has 71 votes, United States has 59.

If there can be no agreement, I move to a triple threat Survivor Series match. The first in history.

 

[Барбоса]

I am not comletely sure what happened here, If Canada loses those 7 votes against, and USA loses those 3 votes against, Canada still has a lot more votes for. The rules stated that the nation with the most votes for would win. After the subtraction, Canada has 71 votes, United States has 59.

Canada may have more collective votes but more people voted for a USA win.

I still think that the winning team should be decided by which individuals gained the most votes, with Hogan being the Sole Survivor for Team USA and Inoki, Kobashi and Misawa surviving for Team Japan.

 

[Mr. TM]

I didn't think rules could be changed midgame. And because apparently they have been, I do not think that Canada should be eliminated from this.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Anyone upset about the result should blame the posters who didn't read the rules. I actually considered suspending the Survivor Series Contest as a whole. But I think I have a solution.

 

[TheThirdHebner]

Anyone upset about the result should blame the posters who didn't read the rules. I actually considered suspending the Survivor Series Contest as a whole. But I think I have a solution.

Can you point to where it says that "the nation with the most total votes wins" or something to that effect? I see nothing like that, the closest thing I can find to a sentence regarding the voting is that people should "only vote for those who you feel will survive".

Here's the text from your OP in the Rd. 2 Canada vs. USA thread:

This is a second round 4-on-4 Survivor Series Match in the 2010 Wrestlezolympics. This match follows traditional Survivor Series rules. Once one team has eliminated all 4 men on the opposing team via pinfall, submission, count-out, or DQ, the match ends, and the surviving team advances.

The match will open for discussion on Friday, February 12th, and voting will begin on Saturday, February 13th. This is a non-spam thread, so if you decide to post, you must provide reasons why you are backing a particular wrestler. You may vote without posting.

To make discussion interesting, please take the time to explain who wins / loses falls and who the surviving wrestlers will be.

WHEN VOTING, YOU MAY ONLY VOTE FOR MEMBERS OF ONE TEAM OR THE OTHER. ONLY VOTE FOR THOSE WRESTLERS YOU FEEL WILL SURVIVE AND BE STANDING AT THE END OF THE MATCH!!!

 

[Tastycles]

I don't really see what the problem is? Hulk Hogan has the most votes, so he is the sole survivor. It should be whoever has more votes than the highest of the opposite team is deemed to have survived.