Superior's War On Stupidity: Alternative Medicine

[Xemmy]

Before I get started, let me make it clear that when I say "faith", I mean believing in something for which there is little to no evidence for. Trusting in something for which there is no proof. That's not the original definition, however I'm going to use that word anyway.

Alternative medicine is any healing practice "that does not fall within the realm of conventional medicine", or "that which has not been shown consistently to be effective."

In ancient times we used herbs for medicine. We still do today, and some to their credit are effective. The problem is that people today can sell different herbs, treatments, and contraptions that make claims that cannot be proven. Even so, Alternative Medicine has a "New Age" appeal to many, and people spend money on them. And that's fine. Who am I to tell people how to spend their money? There are even regulations in place for them, but it's still a growing movement in this generation, which is crazy when we live with Iphones and computers and all these things that give us access to information. It's The kind of faith that goes with shag carpets and incense, riding around in a van and solving mysteries.

One of the problems is that, because of regulation, people have invisioned alternative medicine as "being held down by the man", and that big pharma is just holding it back to make profits. This warps some people into thinking that they can't trust their doctors. This conspiracy theory stems from the pharmaceutical industry being so corrupt. But even though it is corrupt, alternative medicine "denile" isn't the reason why.

Alternative Medicine makes millions in coin, but doesn't really give anything back to society to show for it, other than a sense of false hope, and perhaps a placebo effect.
People's faith in devices like "The Zapper" cannot only cause harm, but ends up prolonging the problem. The Zapper claims to cure cancer btw.

So, what are your thoughts on Alternative Medicine? Am I wrong? Does it benefit society in anyway?

 

[Calderownz]

I am against all Western medicine. All over the counter, prescribed medicine, and what have you is harmful. However, I'm also not into alternative medicine.

At the end of the day, all medicine works on symptoms. Not on what causes the symptoms. It's like a car. If your car makes a noise, you look into what is causing the noise, not finding ways to quiet the noise.

That's what medicine does, though. It's harmful and most medical offices wil either drug you up or cut something off. It's not effective and I don't take all pills or drugs.

Your only hope is living as healthy as you can, getting good rest, lots of water, lots of rest, staying fit and trying to stay away from stress. Natural foods can help, but not really organic food. Legitimately natural foods.

 

[LSN80]

Before I get started, let me make it clear that when I say "faith", I mean believing in something for which there is little to no evidence for. Trusting in something for which there is no proof. That's not the original definition, however I'm going to use that word anyway.

Alternative medicine is any healing practice "that does not fall within the realm of conventional medicine", or "that which has not been shown consistently to be effective."

Ive had plenty of experience when it comes to "alternative medicine", and most of it has been quite negative.

Over the course of playing football and basketball my entire life, injuries have piled up. Ive also been jumped, which causes me severe headaches. Ive had 3 knee surgeries, and 3 ankle surgeries. Twice, Ive had to have the same procedure done twice, because my doctor's prolonged it, and wanted to try "alternative medicine."

One doctor used light therapy, which was supposed to help decrease the pain and inflammation in my ankle. It didn't.

Another doctor used injections, and "sold" me on them, because he had a clinic in Florida where he claims he used these same injections on Hulk Hogan and Michael Jordan. That's great, but they didn't work for me!

As you said, these courses of treatment weren't "proven" to be effective. There's a reason why insurance companies refused to pay for them. My insurance pays for just about anything, but it wouldn't pay for the light therapy or the injections. Why? They explained there was insufficient evidence that they work.

In ancient times we used herbs for medicine. We still do today, and some to their credit are effective. The problem is that people today can sell different herbs, treatments, and contraptions that make claims that cannot be proven. Even so, Alternative Medicine has a "New Age" appeal to many, and people spend money on them. And that's fine. Who am I to tell people how to spend their money? There are even regulations in place for them, but it's still a growing movement in this generation, which is crazy when we live with Iphones and computers and all these things that give us access to information. It's The kind of faith that goes with shag carpets and incense, riding around in a van and solving mysteries.

I agree. From Biofreeze to St Johns Wart, these things are used to help bring a temporary relief. The problem is, they don't address the underlying issue that's there. Hell, my Primary Care Physician asks me if she can pray with me before every appointment. I don't object to it, and allow her. But once she's done, I want to know what shes going to do about "insert problem here." While i believe in God and have faith, I trust more in the tried and true methods that have consistently worked for people.

One of the problems is that, because of regulation, people have invisioned alternative medicine as "being held down by the man", and that big pharma is just holding it back to make profits. This warps some people into thinking that they can't trust their doctors. This conspiracy theory stems from the pharmaceutical industry being so corrupt. But even though it is corrupt, alternative medicine "denial" isn't the reason why.

I think the fact that they're corrupt is irrelevant. They are, but really immaterial here. When I had my knee surgery, I wasn't given(nor did I ask for) supplements or injections. They gave me OxyContin, and Perkocet. Why? Because they've been proven over time to help with pain.

Are medications like these pushed too much, and do the pharaceutical companies benefit immensely? They sure do, but the fact remains, there's a time and a place for them. And no alternative medicine can provide the balance and relief that these medications offer, whether your for them or not.

Alternative Medicine makes millions in coin, but doesn't really give anything back to society to show for it, other than a sense of false hope, and perhaps a placebo effect.

Again, from personal experience, I can attest to this. Ive spent thousands of dollars on "practices" my insurance wouldn't cover, with little benefit to me. The worst part, honestly, is when a doctor wants to START there, and "if it doesn't work, then we'll try conventional methods." Ive never understood this logic or reasoning myself.

So, what are your thoughts on Alternative Medicine? Am I wrong? Does it benefit society in anyway?

I feel like alternative medicine is generally "lets throw crap at the wall and hope it sticks." I feel it should be the last option explored in anyone's care, not the first. Im sure there are people out there who have benefited from it, but on the whole, it's problematic because it lures u in with a false sense of hope or security, costs you a lot of money, and gives little back in return.

In fact, Ive seen it in some ways be counterproductive, as it can create a "dependency." Can conventional medicine do that as well? Absolutely, but its benefits and risks are outlined, and its so much harder to do that with alternative medicine. There's really no "handbook" for how it works, which in some ways, makes it potentially dangerous.

 

[Serious Mozzarella]

I am against all Western medicine. All over the counter, prescribed medicine, and what have you is harmful. However, I'm also not into alternative medicine.

At the end of the day, all medicine works on symptoms. Not on what causes the symptoms. It's like a car. If your car makes a noise, you look into what is causing the noise, not finding ways to quiet the noise.

That's what medicine does, though. It's harmful and most medical offices wil either drug you up or cut something off. It's not effective and I don't take all pills or drugs.

Your only hope is living as healthy as you can, getting good rest, lots of water, lots of rest, staying fit and trying to stay away from stress. Natural foods can help, but not really organic food. Legitimately natural foods.

What kind of information do you have to suggest the fact that all western medicine does more harm than it does help? What do you know about medicine that any other person couldn't know that would give you a healthy advantage over someone else?

Lots of cold medicines are packed with extra vitamin C because the most effective way of treating a cold is a boost to the immune system, and vitamin C is the best way of doing that. You have any other examples?

 

[Calderownz]

What kind of information do you have to suggest the fact that all western medicine does more harm than it does help? What do you know about medicine that any other person couldn't know that would give you a healthy advantage over someone else?

Lots of cold medicines are packed with extra vitamin C because the most effective way of treating a cold is a boost to the immune system, and vitamin C is the best way of doing that. You have any other examples?

Forget the contents of the medicine for a moment. American medicine is the most expensive in the world (http://designerhealthcenters.com/blog/us-health-system-most-expensive-in-the-world), yet America usually produces the most unhealthy people.

Look at the obesity rates. (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_obe-health-obesity)

Obesity obviously being a contributing factor to heart problems, joint aching, blood pressure problems, diabetes, etc.

Now, let's factor IN the contents of the medicine. Here's an interesting study.

http://www.healthycal.org/older-americans-less-healthy-than-british-but-live-longer-study-finds.html

Now, you can choose to believe the study or not. That's irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that American's do live longer -- on average -- then the British do. While that sounds like a good thing, it's actually still a fairly bad thing. We live longer as fat, unhealthy shells of our former selves because drugs do nothing to cure us, simply keep us alive long enough to keep paying premiums, keep filling prescriptions and keep shoveling out more money.

In terms of the drugs themselves. Turn on a television. Every day, you are almost guaranteed to see a commercial for some stupid cunt law firm trying to so big pharmacy over a drug that has killed thousands. While that firm is corrupt and a piece of shit for trying to benefit from the suffering of others, the fact remains. These people still did die, and it's pretty likely that for some of them, it can be linked to the drugs they used.

For the record, the vitamin C argument is a moot point. My entire argument is based on how even something like vitamin C is supposed to be a NATURAL chemical in your body. Eating the correct fruits, for example, is how you should be getting the correct amount. Not shooting it up your nose. That is curing the symptom.

"My immune system is weak. I'll shoot this up my nose and forget about it now."

That's not an answer. That's not curing the "disease." It's only addressing the symptom.

If you walked into a doctors office and said your foot hurts. The doctor would ask why? If you told him, I hit it with a hammer every day on purpose. Your doctor wouldn't chop your foot off or give you a pill to numb the pain (that'd be addressing the symptom). He'd suggest that you stop hitting it with a hammer (that's the actual problem).

 

[SalvIsWin]

Arguing whether a medication acts on circumventing the problem, or whether it solves the problem doesn't really matter. You stated that all Western medicine is harmful, which is ridiculous. Plenty of medications would prevent someone from dying, regardless of whether it's a workaround to the actual cause. Stress is a perfect example, you can have too much cortisol being produced by your adrenal cortex because the feedback loop to your hypothalamus and pituitary has been broken. This means you're going to keep producing more and more cortisol, and you're going to be unable to tell your body to stop doing so. At a certain amount, this is fatal and you can die, it's called exhaustion in Selye's general adaptation syndrome. However if someone knows this is what's happening, you can act on it. You can manually stimulate the hypothalamus to stop producing cortisol, and that can save your life.

If you want to argue that you should be living a healthy lifestyle, and that you should try very hard not to rely on drugs, I would fully agree with you. I personally try not to take any medication unless necessary. Medication that simply solves temporary uncomfort for example I can do without, and yes, continual dependence on these types of drugs can be harmful, but to state all Western medicine is harmful is absurd.

 

[LSN80]

Forget the contents of the medicine for a moment. American medicine is the most expensive in the world (http://designerhealthcenters.com/blog/us-health-system-most-expensive-in-the-world), yet America usually produces the most unhealthy people.

Look at the obesity rates. (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_obe-health-obesity)

Obesity obviously being a contributing factor to heart problems, joint aching, blood pressure problems, diabetes, etc.

Now, let's factor IN the contents of the medicine. Here's an interesting study.

http://www.healthycal.org/older-americans-less-healthy-than-british-but-live-longer-study-finds.html

This study had little to do with medicine, it was about LIFESTYLE choices. Americans make unhealthy choices in that we eat too much, drink too much, smoke, and work too much. I don't see how this correlates with medicine. Peopla in America are unhealthy because of lifestyle choices, not because Western medicine made them so.

Now, you can choose to believe the study or not. That's irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that American's do live longer -- on average -- then the British do. While that sounds like a good thing, it's actually still a fairly bad thing. We live longer as fat, unhealthy shells of our former selves because drugs do nothing to cure us, simply keep us alive long enough to keep paying premiums, keep filling prescriptions and keep shoveling out more money.

I want to point out what you addressed about us living longer as "fat" versions of ourselves. Again, that's based upon a lifestyle choice. If we choose to eat the double cheeseburger deluxe meal over the salad, of course we're going to clog our arteries and be unhealthy. If we choose lounging on the couch rather then exercising, again, its an unhealthy choice.

Ive often found that the best "cure" for a problem is a combination of both. i have a master's degree in psychology, and what i find to be the case most of the time is that medication doesn't work without the therapy, and vice versa. People often need medication due to chemical imbalances, genetics, or traumatic experiences. What you may call a crutch, I call stabilization. And Ive seen it work.

It's really a cost/reward thing. Nothing in life is free, so of course you have to pay to get better. I had a 300 lb client fall on my knee, crushing my meniscus and my ACL. All the natural remedies in the world weren't going to fix it, surgery, painkillers, and physical therapy did. I wouldnt have made it through the surgery or PT without the painkillers. Everyone's body is different, as are their needs man.

In terms of the drugs themselves. Turn on a television. Every day, you are almost guaranteed to see a commercial for some stupid cunt law firm trying to so big pharmacy over a drug that has killed thousands. While that firm is corrupt and a piece of shit for trying to benefit from the suffering of others, the fact remains. These people still did die, and it's pretty likely that for some of them, it can be linked to the drugs they used.

Those drugs that "kill" on their own are few and far between in comparison to the drugs that are beneficial and productive. Do they come with risks? Sure they do, they all have side effects. But most people that die from drugs in this country do so due to overdose. That's not the drug's fault, it's the fault of the person. Should these drugs be more regulated? Absolutely. But it doesnt change the fact that there are people in genuine need of medication, and its foolish to suggest otherwise only on the basis that you don't.

For the record, the vitamin C argument is a moot point. My entire argument is based on how even something like vitamin C is supposed to be a NATURAL chemical in your body. Eating the correct fruits, for example, is how you should be getting the correct amount. Not shooting it up your nose. That is curing the symptom.

"My immune system is weak. I'll shoot this up my nose and forget about it now."

That's not an answer. That's not curing the "disease." It's only addressing the symptom.

Absolutely not true. What about the people that are born with genuine defecincies in these areas? People with low Vitamin B levels are more lethargic, tired, and have less libido. People with Vitamin D deficiencies often have lown tolerance for pain. Do you know what doctor's often do? They prescribe daily, or weekly doses of B or D vitamins, which helps increase the level of those chemicals in your system. How is that not addressing the "disease?"

If you walked into a doctors office and said your foot hurts. The doctor would ask why? If you told him, I hit it with a hammer every day on purpose. Your doctor wouldn't chop your foot off or give you a pill to numb the pain (that'd be addressing the symptom). He'd suggest that you stop hitting it with a hammer (that's the actual problem).

This is a ludicrous analogy. Im not even sure how it fits. Doctor's with good intentions address both the symptoms and the disease. You have to. You can't just ignore the one, and fix the other.

My wife, at 32, contracted breast cancer last year. That was the problem. But the symptoms were excruciating pain, anxiety, nausea, weakness, loss of appetite, and irritabilty. In order for my wife to survive the ordeal, she was put on medication. Alot of it. Some for pain, some for anxiety, some for nausea, you get my point. She was a healthy, vibrant, and virtually stress free woman before this(mostly because she had me ), yet the sickness turned her into a shell of herself. She needed chemotherapy, radiation, and the medication to make it through.

To fully address the problem, you have to identify and work on the symptoms, which in turn cures the problem. You can't just eat healthy, drink lots of water, exercise, and get good rest in these situations. Western medicine, while it has it's flaws through greed, malpractice, and side effects, has benfits that far outweigh the negatives.

 

[Calderownz]

Arguing whether a medication acts on circumventing the problem, or whether it solves the problem doesn't really matter. You stated that all Western medicine is harmful, which is ridiculous. Plenty of medications would prevent someone from dying, regardless of whether it's a workaround to the actual cause. Stress is a perfect example, you can have too much cortisol being produced by your adrenal cortex because the feedback loop to your hypothalamus and pituitary has been broken. This means you're going to keep producing more and more cortisol, and you're going to be unable to tell your body to stop doing so. At a certain amount, this is fatal and you can die, it's called exhaustion in Selye's general adaptation syndrome. However if someone knows this is what's happening, you can act on it. You can manually stimulate the hypothalamus to stop producing cortisol, and that can save your life.

If you want to argue that you should be living a healthy lifestyle, and that you should try very hard not to rely on drugs, I would fully agree with you. I personally try not to take any medication unless necessary. Medication that simply solves temporary uncomfort for example I can do without, and yes, continual dependence on these types of drugs can be harmful, but to state all Western medicine is harmful is absurd.

Some of you are missing the point. I understand that if you are about to go under the knife, you would need some type of extra chemical intake in order to handle the situation.

If your blood pressure is so high or low that you could go into a coma, obviously you need to take something.

What I'm talking about is that you should never rely on the drugs to begin with. Overall, they are harmful. Relying on anything outside of your body to keep your body running, hurts your body, overall.

Look, at the end of the day, your body has the ability to give itself all of the chemicals it needs either naturally or through the intake of natural sources. Meaning, foods and vitamins (natural ones.)

How could NEEDING to take something that is ALL BASED ON CHEMICALS and MANUFACTURED be a good thing?

Yes, if it SAVES your life and is needed immediately, it's self-preservation. But, in the long run, for your life, you'd do what you have to to keep all of it out of your system. Hence the reason every day, they air commercials about drugs killing thousands of people.

 

[Calderownz]

This study had little to do with medicine, it was about LIFESTYLE choices. Americans make unhealthy choices in that we eat too much, drink too much, smoke, and work too much. I don't see how this correlates with medicine. Peopla in America are unhealthy because of lifestyle choices, not because Western medicine made them so.

I was only bringing it up to point out the stats. Nonetheless, it has a lot to do with medicine. If it was legit medicine, you'd be able to manage your health in a far better way. You obviously would be perfect, but you'd be healthier, overall. You're right, Western medicine might not cause the initial unhealthiness, but what I'm saying is that it doesn't cure it. It prolongs it and tries to stop the symptoms.

Nonetheless, you could suggest that medicine is quite toxic considering that most medicines deal with people on a "across the board" level. Meaning that they give the same person with heart problems the same medicine that they'd give someone else with a heart problem. Trouble is, no two people are alike.

I want to point out what you addressed about us living longer as "fat" versions of ourselves. Again, that's based upon a lifestyle choice. If we choose to eat the double cheeseburger deluxe meal over the salad, of course we're going to clog our arteries and be unhealthy. If we choose lounging on the couch rather then exercising, again, its an unhealthy choice.

Ive often found that the best "cure" for a problem is a combination of both. i have a master's degree in psychology, and what i find to be the case most of the time is that medication doesn't work without the therapy, and vice versa. People often need medication due to chemical imbalances, genetics, or traumatic experiences. What you may call a crutch, I call stabilization. And Ive seen it work.

It's really a cost/reward thing. Nothing in life is free, so of course you have to pay to get better. I had a 300 lb client fall on my knee, crushing my meniscus and my ACL. All the natural remedies in the world weren't going to fix it, surgery, painkillers, and physical therapy did. I wouldnt have made it through the surgery or PT without the painkillers. Everyone's body is different, as are their needs man.

Correct, and once again, I'd never tell someone who needs medicine pumped into him for something like that to not take it. That's self-preservation. It's like chewing your arm off to escape an avalanche. Clearly, I wouldn't recommend that if your partner is laying on your arm during sleep. However, it's self-preservation. So, under those circumstances, it's needed. However, that's only when it's gotten to that point. I'm talking about medicines that people take to cure a problem before it gets to THAT severe of a problem, when the medicine is only to solve the symptom.

My mother is a diabetic and she injects herself everyday. Yes, she would be dead if she didn't, most likely. I understand that situation. However, my mother should have made healthier choices, so that she wouldn't have ended up in bad shape. At the very least, she could be a healthier version of a diabetic.

Those drugs that "kill" on their own are few and far between in comparison to the drugs that are beneficial and productive. Do they come with risks? Sure they do, they all have side effects. But most people that die from drugs in this country do so due to overdose. That's not the drug's fault, it's the fault of the person. Should these drugs be more regulated? Absolutely. But it doesnt change the fact that there are people in genuine need of medication, and its foolish to suggest otherwise only on the basis that you don't.

http://hmc.alternativehealth.com/prescription-drugs-can-kill.htm

You're right. Most people do die from overdoses. I agree. However, that's a side effect of a pill or liquid that you intake, that you shouldn't have to end up taking. No one has ever died from eating more fruits. (Obviously ruling out being allergic or choking on an apple, for example.)

All of these chemicals you find in drugs can be found NATURALLY, sans the side effects. I'm not usually a riled up person, but I'm getting rather frustrated by the fact that most of you are not getting what my point is.

Drugs should be avoided. They are last-ditch efforts. As far as the drugs you intake, most are harmful. Most drugs don't work correctly on a person-by-person basis, because most drugs are made for a problem across the board.

How can anyone believe that a drug made for you, before even discussing your problem is going to be all good for you? When they made the drug, they didn't even know your exact problem. How does that sound safe.

That would be the equivalent to me saying I tailored a suit for you before even getting the chance to measure you. They take the dosage down or up, depending on what they feel you need. They have slightly different versions of the pill, sure. But at the end of the day, it's the same drug. Yet, you and I could have virtually the same problem, but need different things to actually fix the ailment.

That CANNOT be safe, in any way shape or form.

Absolutely not true. What about the people that are born with genuine defecincies in these areas? People with low Vitamin B levels are more lethargic, tired, and have less libido. People with Vitamin D deficiencies often have lown tolerance for pain. Do you know what doctor's often do? They prescribe daily, or weekly doses of B or D vitamins, which helps increase the level of those chemicals in your system. How is that not addressing the "disease?"

Those are rare cases. I'm talking about most people. You can bring this example up, and I can bring an example of someone who needed something that a pill claimed it had and died. These are rare cases. They happen by the thousands yearly, but are rare in the overall picture. Also, that IS addressing problem, however there are still better, natural ways.



This is a ludicrous analogy. Im not even sure how it fits. Doctor's with good intentions address both the symptoms and the disease. You have to. You can't just ignore the one, and fix the other.

My wife, at 32, contracted breast cancer last year. That was the problem. But the symptoms were excruciating pain, anxiety, nausea, weakness, loss of appetite, and irritabilty. In order for my wife to survive the ordeal, she was put on medication. Alot of it. Some for pain, some for anxiety, some for nausea, you get my point. She was a healthy, vibrant, and virtually stress free woman before this(mostly because she had me ), yet the sickness turned her into a shell of herself. She needed chemotherapy, radiation, and the medication to make it through.

To fully address the problem, you have to identify and work on the symptoms, which in turn cures the problem. You can't just eat healthy, drink lots of water, exercise, and get good rest in these situations. Western medicine, while it has it's flaws through greed, malpractice, and side effects, has benfits that far outweigh the negatives.[/QUOTE]

Are you kidding me? Address the symptoms which in turn cures the problem?

It's actually the EXACT opposite. I agree, that with cancer, you have to deal with both. The pain is too excruciating to let go. I get that. What I'm saying is that with some cases (of cancer for that matter) the problem can be avoided. Not all the time, but some times.

Nonetheless, addressing the PROBLEM first will rid you of the symptoms. As far as the analogy, it makes total sense and relates. I'm almost compelled to go through it step by step, but I'm getting a little tired of having to completely draw out my overall point for everyone.

If you have a pain, the pain is caused by SOMETHING ("the disease".) You don't try to numb the pain and consider that the end of it. You have to get rid of the PROBLEM, so that the pain no longer takes place. Yes, you may feel compelled to numb the pain at first, however that's only drugging yourself up unless you address the PROBLEM. Theoretically, you may be numbing the pain at FIRST (meaning that you did technically handle the symptom first) but it's not what actually CURES you first. Curing yourself means getting rid of the disease, which needs to be the FIRST priority.

It's like a car. Get rid of what causes the weird engine sound, don't make your car sound-proof.

As far as the rest, food and what have you points I made, I get that it wont cure you of cancer. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about overall "disease." Rest, the correct foods, and staying in HEALTHY shape, keep you healthy. You will have less need for unneeded medicines.

Medicines in extreme conditions are obviously needed. It's too late to live healthy, when you're sick. I'm talking about avoided the common sicknesses that usually affect Americans.

So, to close out. Let me restate my overall points. To be perfectly honest, I'm not interested in having these back and forths unless my points are perfectly clear.

1. Medicine should be avoided as much as possible. Living healthy is the only CURE to any real problem, as medicine only addresses the symptoms you have. (Example: Yes, insulin will help with your diabetes. However, high blood pressure is a symptom of eating the wrong foods, not the actual disease.)

2. During extreme cases, medicine will be NEEDED. However, we are talking about common cases, which can usually be avoided.

3. Medicine is generally harmful to most people. You can't be getting the right dosages and chemicals that will be perfectly fit for you, considering that the pills are made without you in mind. YOU getting the right foods, the right rest, the right exercise and diet are the only HEALTHY ways to live a better life. Pill and overall medicine only attempt to help the symptoms and are made in bundle for everyone, assuming that they have the exact same problems.

They don't. All of our bodies are unique, it's virtually impossible.

 

[SalvIsWin]

Some of you are missing the point. I understand that if you are about to go under the knife, you would need some type of extra chemical intake in order to handle the situation.

If your blood pressure is so high or low that you could go into a coma, obviously you need to take something.

What I'm talking about is that you should never rely on the drugs to begin with. Overall, they are harmful. Relying on anything outside of your body to keep your body running, hurts your body, overall.

Look, at the end of the day, your body has the ability to give itself all of the chemicals it needs either naturally or through the intake of natural sources. Meaning, foods and vitamins (natural ones.)

How could NEEDING to take something that is ALL BASED ON CHEMICALS and MANUFACTURED be a good thing?

Yes, if it SAVES your life and is needed immediately, it's self-preservation. But, in the long run, for your life, you'd do what you have to to keep all of it out of your system. Hence the reason every day, they air commercials about drugs killing thousands of people.

Like I said in my statement, I agree that taking medication besides necessities isn't wise. Taking everything into account I think it's fair to say that you didn't word your opinion very well.

 

[Calderownz]

Like I said in my statement, I agree that taking medication besides necessities isn't wise. Taking everything into account I think it's fair to say that you didn't word your opinion very well.

It depends on how you look at it. I believe that what I said was clear. The onyl thing I didn't really point out was that under extreme situations, I'm for drugs being used. However, that should be considered an obvious situation. Only a sociopath would say that you should NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES touch any drug.

I usually make my points very clear and aside from that one "oversight," my point was made fairly clearly.

This issue, not really due to anyone or thing in general is a little tiresome at this point. Regardless, I enjoyed the back and forth while it lasted.

 

[LSN80]

I was only bringing it up to point out the stats. Nonetheless, it has a lot to do with medicine. If it was legit medicine, you'd be able to manage your health in a far better way. You obviously would be perfect, but you'd be healthier, overall. You're right, Western medicine might not cause the initial unhealthiness, but what I'm saying is that it doesn't cure it. It prolongs it and tries to stop the symptoms.

Thanks for clearing up the misunderstanding. I guess my point is that I think of medications as a necessity for alot of people in order for them to fully have their problems addressed. I know personally, I would have never made it through physical therapy if i hadn't been on strong narcotics. On the converse, had i stayed on them, I certainly would have become addicted. I definitely see the harm they inflict, no doubt. But they served their purpose, and have their time and place.

Correct, and once again, I'd never tell someone who needs medicine pumped into him for something like that to not take it. That's self-preservation. It's like chewing your arm off to escape an avalanche. Clearly, I wouldn't recommend that if your partner is laying on your arm during sleep. However, it's self-preservation. So, under those circumstances, it's needed. However, that's only when it's gotten to that point. I'm talking about medicines that people take to cure a problem before it gets to THAT severe of a problem, when the medicine is only to solve the symptom.

But there's alot of people out there that need self-preservation, and for them, the benefits far outweigh the risks. I think the number of people in need is far higher then you might think. As I said, I don't think any medication should be taken forever, unless it's needed to stay alive. But what Ive found in my experience as a therapist who also prescribes medication is that one generally doesn't work without the other. And usually through the course of therapy, I attempt to ween people off medication. Alot of times, the medication is needed initially to get to the root of the problem. That's not just applicable in therapy, its applicable in most illnesses.

My mother is a diabetic and she injects herself everyday. Yes, she would be dead if she didn't, most likely. I understand that situation. However, my mother should have made healthier choices, so that she wouldn't have ended up in bad shape. At the very least, she could be a healthier version of a diabetic.

Sad as it is, its a nice backdrop for your mother to have in order to stay alive, right? I understand, and pointed out, that alot of people cause their own problems that cause them to need medication. We're a society of gluttons, over-indulgers, and poor decision makers. But Im sure you would completely agree that these people shouldn't suffer by being denied health sustaining medications due to their poor choices.

You're right. Most people do die from overdoses. I agree. However, that's a side effect of a pill or liquid that you intake, that you shouldn't have to end up taking. No one has ever died from eating more fruits. (Obviously ruling out being allergic or choking on an apple, for example.)

It's a side effect from a personal choice. Rarely does the overdose take place due to accident, its mostly due to that person knowingly abusing said medication. That's choice, not the fault of the medication, manufacturer, or pharaceutical company.

All of these chemicals you find in drugs can be found NATURALLY, sans the side effects. I'm not usually a riled up person, but I'm getting rather frustrated by the fact that most of you are not getting what my point is.

I do see your point, and I apologize for your frustration. Your making a logical, coherent point and I respect it. There are just aspects we disagree on.

Drugs should be avoided. They are last-ditch efforts. As far as the drugs you intake, most are harmful. Most drugs don't work correctly on a person-by-person basis, because most drugs are made for a problem across the board.

You're absolutely correct. Pain medications will lower your vitamin d level, which in turn lowers your pain threshold. And you pointed out one of the most frustrating problems with medication, which is that Problem A is usually "fixed" by Medication A, without looking at a person on a case to case basis.

How can anyone believe that a drug made for you, before even discussing your problem is going to be all good for you? When they made the drug, they didn't even know your exact problem. How does that sound safe?

You're correct. Drugs are made on a general basis, not on a case to case basis. But before any drug is introduced to the market, it's put through a BATTERY of "tests" in order for it to be approved. Im not saying that it makes it safe, but it would be impossible to develop a specific drug to fit each persons specific immune system. You have to rely on whats been shown to work in alot of cases.

That would be the equivalent to me saying I tailored a suit for you before even getting the chance to measure you. They take the dosage down or up, depending on what they feel you need. They have slightly different versions of the pill, sure. But at the end of the day, it's the same drug. Yet, you and I could have virtually the same problem, but need different things to actually fix the ailment.

That CANNOT be safe, in any way shape or form.

No, its not 100 percent safe, I absolutely agree. I know I was personally trained to recognize signs, symptoms, and look for causes. Between that and talking with my clients based upon what their individual needs are, it enables me to make informed decisions. Is it a failproof method? Absolutely not.

Those are rare cases. I'm talking about most people. You can bring this example up, and I can bring an example of someone who needed something that a pill claimed it had and died. These are rare cases. They happen by the thousands yearly, but are rare in the overall picture. Also, that IS addressing problem, however there are still better, natural ways.

But most people want and are looking for a quick fix, and can you blame them? Thats often what medications provide. Natural cures often take time, patience, and money, things most Americans lack. Are the natural ways better? Yes. Do people die from medications? Yes. But the people who die are far fewer then the people who benefit from medications. They're not a cure-all, but as Ive stated, they often allow doctors to get to the bottom of the issues by providing the stabilization a person needs.

Are you kidding me? Address the symptoms which in turn cures the problem?

Nah i was being quite serious. I just left a word out. Im a poort typer. Addressing the symptoms allows health care professionals to explore and cure the problem is what I meant to say.

Nonetheless, addressing the PROBLEM first will rid you of the symptoms. As far as the analogy, it makes total sense and relates. I'm almost compelled to go through it step by step, but I'm getting a little tired of having to completely draw out my overall point for everyone.

Most people who are dealing with physical and emotional problems are incapable of dealing with the problem first. They often need to be stabilized by medication, first, before the problem can be solved. Medications are a necessary evil for alot of people.

If you have a pain, the pain is caused by SOMETHING ("the disease".) You don't try to numb the pain and consider that the end of it. You have to get rid of the PROBLEM, so that the pain no longer takes place. Yes, you may feel compelled to numb the pain at first, however that's only drugging yourself up unless you address the PROBLEM. Theoretically, you may be numbing the pain at FIRST (meaning that you did technically handle the symptom first) but it's not what actually CURES you first. Curing yourself means getting rid of the disease, which needs to be the FIRST priority.

Stabilization is always the first priority. If you break your leg, you don't go right into surgery on most cases. They often splint or cast it, and give you something to numb the pain. Your right, that doesn't make the pain go away, or solve the problem, but it does allow for the person to cope with the problem until it can be fully addressed. I agree with most of what you're saying. Im thankful though that those avenues are there that allow you to "numb" the pain until a concrete solution can be determined. Just as you don't want to apply the same medications to each person, you don't want to apply the same solution to the problem for everyone. Often, it takes time to determine what the correct course of treatment is. Until then, its a good and benmeficial thing(in most cases for most people) to have medication they can use to help treat the symptoms.

As far as the rest, food and what have you points I made, I get that it wont cure you of cancer. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about overall "disease." Rest, the correct foods, and staying in HEALTHY shape, keep you healthy. You will have less need for unneeded medicines.

I agree completely.

Medicines in extreme conditions are obviously needed. It's too late to live healthy, when you're sick. I'm talking about avoided the common sicknesses that usually affect Americans.

I think it goes on a person to person basis. There are alot of people who need medication for daily, routine maintenance. Do we live in a society permeated with oversaturation of medication? Absolutely. That still doesn't detract from the overall benefits of taking a medication appropriately and correctly.

So, to close out. Let me restate my overall points. To be perfectly honest, I'm not interested in having these back and forths unless my points are perfectly clear.

1. Medicine should be avoided as much as possible. Living healthy is the only CURE to any real problem, as medicine only addresses the symptoms you have. (Example: Yes, insulin will help with your diabetes. However, high blood pressure is a symptom of eating the wrong foods, not the actual disease.)

My counter point to that is one ive stated often. Medication is frequently needed in order to provide the stabilization one needs in order to address the overall problem. But there are plenty of other "cures" to many problems. Medication is a tool that helps people reach that cure.

2. During extreme cases, medicine will be NEEDED. However, we are talking about common cases, which can usually be avoided.

Yes, living healthy, exercising, eating right, and avoiding anything in excess is the best way to stay healthy. But even in common cases, there are things in medications that help a problem immediately to allow for a more concrete plan of treatment to be established over time.

3. Medicine is generally harmful to most people. You can't be getting the right dosages and chemicals that will be perfectly fit for you, considering that the pills are made without you in mind. YOU getting the right foods, the right rest, the right exercise and diet are the only HEALTHY ways to live a better life. Pill and overall medicine only attempt to help the symptoms and are made in bundle for everyone, assuming that they have the exact same problems.

Medications are ahrmful to some people. I would argue that it's an low percentage of the population. It's people that self-medicate and abuse that create the problems for themselves. That does make medication a risk in itself, absolutely, as youre not going to overdose on bananas. But just as people make poor lifestyle choices that lead to their medical problems in many cases, they make poor choices in how they medicate themselves that cause harm to people.

I agree that it is problematic that each person is different, and thus, its difficult to determine an "exact" way of adjusting medication. That doesnt mean its throwing shit against the wall and hoping it sticks. Certain medications have been proven to work to relieve the symptoms of certain diseases in most people. There will always be exceptions to the rule.

But generally speaking, you're correct, those that make healthy life choices like we've discussed tend to live healthy lives in most cases. Most.