Suicide: The most selfish act?

[LSN80]

In reading through the comments from the thread yesterday regarding the woman who attempted to kill herself and her baby, it brings to mind the general consensus that suicide is the most selfish decision one can make. Part of me has always looked as suicide as a way of attempting to relieve one's pain, all-the-while inflicting great emotional damage upon others. In general, it's a total disregard for the damage it creates for the people left behind. In that sense, suicide seems a very selfish act.

However, on the other side of the coin, there are people who live every day in unmeasurable pain, be it physical or emotional. And often, these people stay alive solely to avoid hurting their loved ones. It's a selfless act, in that sense, staying alive. I once had a female patient discuss her brother's suicide with me, and the conversation she had with her brother shortly beforehand. He texted her, "If I kill myself, don't remember me for this. Remember me and the good times". Her response was "No, if you kill yourself, I'll never forget this last selfish act." In the end, she felt like the selfish one, as she felt she pushed her already suicidal brother to a state of devastation, as she was the last valued relationship he had, and she felt she rejected him in his most dire of needs. It made me wonder: Who was more selfish, she or he?

And then yesterday happened. A woman plunged 8 stories to her death, taking her 10 month old son with her. However, her son didn't die, and is now in critical but stable condition in a New York hospital. And then it struck me: What could be more selfish then that? Taking one's own life is one thing, but taking the life of someone else is far more selfish. It's done without consideration for what's best for them, placing your needs above their own. It's placing your judgement above theirs and ignoring who they are. Further, it causes the same pain and grief for the loved ones left behind, but done for self-serving purposes to somehow better your own life.

In essence, what I'm saying is this: The taking of someone elses life, undoubtably to benefit one's own somehow, is far more selfish then taking one's own life to relieve whatever suffering one's been/going through.

What do you consider to be the most selfish act someone can commit?

 

[Mustang Sally]

In general, it's a total disregard for the damage it creates for the people left behind.

Well, not necessarily a total disregard for the folks left behind; it's more that the would-be suicide's needs outweigh the needs of everyone else. They might be fully aware of everyone else's needs, but choose to kill themselves anyway. Perhaps the person feels their presence is not of benefit to anyone else, or at least there would be no detriment to others by their dying. I don't know, I've (thankfully) never felt any of those things. But even if they know other people need them, their own pain may be too great to go on living. Any way you view it, it's very sad.

What do you consider to be the most selfish act someone can commit?

Can't really say; there are too many acts that could be considered selfish to pick a winner. But one thing stands out on this subject, the mention of which might get me blasted on the forum: Selfishness isn't always a bad thing. To be selfish, one has to possess a sense of self..... an ethic of believing (or disbelieving) with your own mind and coming to your own conclusions. In essence, this involves living for yourself instead of existing solely for others. That's not a bad thing, although we think of anything selfish as totally bad.

But if you are to be considered selfless, it often means to exist completely for other people: to fit in with them, to take their opinions as your own, to never have an independent thought of your own. Too many folks who are considered (or consider themselves) totally selfless are ones who have never had an original thought in their lives.....nor would they want one. In speaking to a woman I knew, I told her she should consider coming to some conclusions of her own; to do what she wanted to do instead of trying to adjust her life to the whims of others. She replied that she was doing what she wanted ....and what she wanted was to think, look, eat, dress and act like everyone else. Apparently, this was her definition of independence.

Well, I guess there are many ways of considering the concept of selfishness. But trying to name the most selfish act a person can commit is almost impossible to do: the field is too wide..... and the notion that all selfish acts are bad is probably too narrow a view.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

What is selfish is telling someone to carry on their miserable tortured existance because YOU over here in your perfect little world will miss them.

If someone doesnt feel like living anymore, then fuck it, its their life. You have no fucking clue what it is like to be them. Not that I would encourage suicide, for the majority of problems shall pass, and with time, the majority of wounds will heal.

But everyone has their own circumstances, many of which you cant ever hope to understand or feel. People should grow up and stop clutching to these little nursery ryhme knee-jerk reactions we are all taught all our lives.

 

[H33LTurn]

Do you know what someone has to be going through to come to the conclusion that dying is a better option that spending one more day on this earth? I'm tired of blaming the victim. Every day I see hypocrites who say that they would help someone if they were suicidal, that they would lend an ear, blah blah blah. At the end of the day when confronted with someone who is suicidal they freeze up, ignore the person, and then blame them when they kill themselves. If you honestly dont care or cant comprehend why someone is suicidal then by all means dont get involved but to judge someone who is in such dire straits is just plain wrong. I swear, people these days should be forced to take a psychology class before they're allowed to interact with other human beings, especially troubled ones.

 

[Dagger Dias]

It all comes down to one's own personal beliefs. I'm against suicide no matter what the circumstances are. We are all given our life by our creator, thus it is a gift and not ours to take. Granted we all die at some point, some by natural causes and others by the actions of either themselves or other people. That's a whole other topic though. I'm against taking my own life under any given circumstance, it wasn't mine to begin with thus it's not mine to take. Choosing to end your life is denying that precious gift.

Bad things happen in life. Even if you hit a point in your life so low that you seem to have absolutely nothing worth living for anymore.... Don't give up. Something good could be just around the corner, you have to trust in your destiny and try to make the best with what you have while trying to reach the point where you'd like to be. Suicide is NOT the answer and it IS one of the most selfish acts a human being can decide to make. It may not affect the individual anymore once they have passed, but it does affect those around them. Everyone has someone who cares about them. Someone, somewhere, somehow, will be devastated by the news that someone would make such a decision.

Am I going to force my beliefs on anyone and tell them they can't kill themselves if they have fully given up on life? No. It's their decision, however I would try to talk to them and help them realize that there is always hope and people who do care. Everyone is loved and cared for in some way shape or form. I struggle with coming up with any act more selfish than suicide, but part of the reason is because of the type of pain it causes. The only acts I can think of that can possibly be more selfish than suicide either inflict death or physical harm on others. Suicide inflicts mental/emotional pain which can sometimes be worse than any physical injury. Suicide is like telling the world that you have given up and don't care about how it will hurt those around you that you have quit when they are the ones who will have to deal with the consequences rather than the one who took their life. In this life anyway, someone that takes their own life may face consequences in the next life, but that's for another thread.

 

[I Heart Cena]

What is selfish is telling someone to carry on their miserable tortured existance because YOU over here in your perfect little world will miss them.

If someone doesnt feel like living anymore, then fuck it, its their life. You have no fucking clue what it is like to be them.

But everyone has their own circumstances, many of which you cant ever hope to understand or feel. People should grow up and stop clutching to these little nursery ryhme knee-jerk reactions we are all taught all our lives.

This.

However, people who have kids ahould not be allowed to abandon them. Thus, they have to live on and support them.

But, no kids? No problem. Your life is yours like your TV or microwave. You can end it, just like you can destroy your other possessions.

 

[HBK-aholic]

This.

However, people who have kids ahould not be allowed to abandon them. Thus, they have to live on and support them.

But, no kids? No problem. Your life is yours like your TV or microwave. You can end it, just like you can destroy your other possessions.

My thoughts exactly.

I 100% disagree with the belief that your life belongs to a 'creator' whoever that may be. Your life is your own - no one else is living through what you are, and if you have circumstances in which you feel you can't live with anymore, that your decision, and your decision alone to make.

I'm always wary of people who say 'No issue is big enough to kill yourself over' as I just wonder how nice of a life those people have had. While I know that's not always the case, it comes across as being very elitest and something a person with a 'perfect' life would say. I can imagine a couple of scenarios where suicide would be a valid option, to me, in my mind. For example, if anything happened to my children resulting in their death, I would not be able to live without them. I know that from the bottom of my heart.

Selfish? Maybe, but is there an act in life which isn't selfish? Even those who devote their lives to charities or helping others, do so because it make themselves feel good, surely - isn't that selfish, even if it is helping others? The issue was raised in an episode of Friends, where they couldn't find a 'selfless good deed'.

Back to suicide, specifically - your life is your own..until you have children. I think deciding to have a child means giving your own life up for as long as they need you. I will not ever imagine a scenario in which I find it okay to kill yourself and leave a child parent-less. That's not to say a situation doesn't exist, but I can't think of one, and every time I hear of a parent killing themselves I do think more about that poor child.

That being said - we're not all as strong as one another. There are those who don't believe mental illness exists as a condition, there are those who could suffer through the death of their children and go on to live their lives. We've heard of strong soldiers committing suicide over the sights they've seen in other countries, and there are others who can live with that, even though they find it difficult. My point is, it's wrong to judge other people on your strengths alone, as you may be a stronger person than they in that area. And it's wrong for you to expect someone else to live through unbearable agony (To them) just to suit your vision of a perfectly strong world and perfectly strong people.

 

[Richard]

I think that when you are dealing with an issue such as suicide, you can't describe it necessarily as one word such as selfish just as an example being the word that's being used here.

It's all about perspective. It may not be selfish for the person who is taking their life, but selfish to their friend/s, family, co-workers, etc. who can't understand what that person is going through. Everyone has an opinion on whether suicide is ok, just as people have different opinions and perspectives on what level of any certain emotion they're able to deal with.

I'm all for euthanasia. I think people should be allowed to take their own life if they choose to and are mentally in the frame of mind to make a conscious decision. I would much rather them be able to do that than to have to resort to doing something drastic such as jumping in front of a train which could scar the driver for life and impact on him/her or anything like that.

Obviously it goes without saying though that there should be some form of mental health testing before this happens so that you can't just do that because of something trivial which can be worked on easily.

 

[AhSpicyDrop]

Let's look at this from another perspective... We're overpopulated. WAY overpopulated. It's because of this that I fully support suicide AND euthanasia. But above all else it's their choice. People have been stealing others freedoms for so long that we've come to the point where it's rational to prevent people from making the decision as to whether they want to live or die...

As I said before we're never going to be at a shortage for people.... what with all these Teen Mom shows, and other celebrities prancing around and glorifying the fuck out of being a parent. I think if a 7/11 clerk that has University of Phoenix Online debt, and a $5,000 credit card bill wants to run in front of a Greyhound he should be allowed and nobody should say a god damn word about it.

Same thing goes for the frail old bastards in the nursing homes wailing for someone to take away the pain.... Is there any logical reason why their selfish ass kids should keep them in there on a breathing machine and collecting bed sores when they're realistically only visiting once a week at most? If someone has lived a decent life and they're now restrained to a nursing home and they WANT to die, then why should we stop them, or worse GUILT them into sticking around and being miserable?

I mean, even in regards to parents that kill themselves and leave behind dependents... Yeah, that's going to do some damage to the kid(s) if they're old enough to understand what's going on, but at the same time it's not doing as much damage as what being around a negative parental figure that has no hopes or aspirations for their future, let alone yours, would do.

 

[Richard]

As I said before we're never going to be at a shortage for people.... what with all these Teen Mom shows, and other celebrities prancing around and glorifying the fuck out of being a parent. I think if a 7/11 clerk that has University of Phoenix Online debt, and a $5,000 credit card bill wants to run in front of a Greyhound he should be allowed and nobody should say a god damn word about it.

If you're talking about a Greyhound train then this is why Euthanasia should be legal. My father used to be a train conductor and saw a kid who had been run over and sliced up from the train and from what my mum tells me it screwed him up for a long time and he never really dealt with it and I think that's where suicide could be considered selfish, when the act of it can influence someone else's ability to continue their job/life.

Thankfully my father never lost his job and spiralled out from depression or anything otherwise we would have had no main income.

Note that this kid fell from the train and not on purpose but the point is it could have that effect if someone did jump in front of a train.

Long story short, make euthanasia legal so they have somewhere to do it.

 

[Trance Metaphor]

People are selfish one way or another. A person eliminating his life isn't more selfish than a person not eliminating his life. After all, people live by trying to fulfill their desires and what they want. Not everybody wants to live, so there should be an equal right concerning that. Other people can talk about all the pretty things in life all they want to, but that doesn't mean it applies to the person they are preaching to. Different circumstances for different people. If you've never walked in another person's shoes, you don't know what that person is going through. Pretending to know is an insult. Just because one person overcomes something doesn't mean another person can. Just because one person accomplishes something doesn't mean another person can. "If I can do it, you can do it" is bullshit. Some people really are in a dark place where nothing feels meaningful or hopeful. I've been there countless times and for many years. I've attempted suicide and failed. It's not an easy way out, because in the end, it's not that I want to necessarily die, it's that I can't find any better solution out of the mess. It's petrifying. I just want to disappear rather. Meanwhile, society will just say "man up" or "suck it up" or "there are others far worse off than you" or "boo-hoo, stop throwing a self-pity party" or "I go through all of this shit, but guess what? I'm trudging on 'cause I'm not letting them win." So of course, one is gonna just keep quiet about it since all it does is attract criticism and judgment. And while this is going on, the only thing that circulates inside the mind is "they don't think I've tried, or that I don't know that already?" It's hard to think that anyone really cares when there's so much pressure to succeed without any regard to one's emotional/psychological conditions. What's at the end of the road when you've been down the road seeing nothing? Is there some reward at the end for overcoming? Terminal illness? Homelessness? Unemployment? Deception? Senility? I understand that "loved ones" will be hurt, but to the person that is hurting the most (the suicidal one), all that matters is eliminating the immediate pain (thus committing suicide).

 

[Brocky maivia]

My opinion on suicide is its circumstantial. For example for was a man in a neighbouring city who had his house burnt down seeing his 4 children and wife die been unable to save them. If i found myself in that situation i think i would kill myself. I dont know the situation of that man but who would.blame him if he did. Now on the other hand there was a Welsh footballing legend by the nae of Gary Speed who killed himself last yead leaving children and a wife behind. The reasoning of his suicide i dont know although some say depression, to me that is a selfish act.

Now on the flip side of the coin if my Girlfriend was suffering from an incurabld illness and wanted go.be put out of her pain that is something i would understand as. Sometimes its easier to runaway then fight through the pain. If i was suffering from a incurable illness i would suggest to my partner i leave her behind as i would feel like a burden to her and would want her to be happy and build and new life.


I suppose when it comes to a subject like this there are many factors all unique in every sittuation that have to be taken into account.


As for the mos selfish act: pedophillia. Nothing is more despicable then stealing a childs innocence for youf own waroed pleasure

 

[LSN80]

My opinion on suicide is its circumstantial. For example for was a man in a neighbouring city who had his house burnt down seeing his 4 children and wife die been unable to save them. If i found myself in that situation i think i would kill myself. I dont know the situation of that man but who would.blame him if he did. Now on the other hand there was a Welsh footballing legend by the nae of Gary Speed who killed himself last yead leaving children and a wife behind. The reasoning of his suicide i dont know although some say depression, to me that is a selfish act.

Actually, both acts are selfish. Not wanting to live because you lost somebody, or your family, such as the man in your close town, is selfish. He didn't want to keep living without them. It was about him, and the loss he sufferred. Am I saying he's wrong? No. I'm simply saying that the act itself was no less selfish then that of Gary Speed.

In the case of Mr. Speed, he certainly was putting himself first, above his wife and kids. It's safe to say he wasn't thinking of them first and foremost, and while alive, I think there's a certain responsibility in a family to put your wife and kids above yourself. But depression is a downward spiral, and people who are severely depressed often don't have the perspective or the where-with-all to put others first. Be it a chemical imbalance, situational, or blows to the head, it was obviously something he couldn't live with anymore. And if his wife and children weren't enough motivation to keep himself alive, let's look at it from a different standpoint.

What if he felt he was a bigger burden to his family alive then dead? Is he then selfish? I don't know his mind, but if that was the case, then what he did isn't cut and dry selfish, in his state of depression, he's actually being unsefish by taking his life. They most assuredly don't see it that way, I'd guess, but it may in fact have been an unsefish act if he felt he was creating a burden for his family.

As for the mos selfish act: pedophillia. Nothing is more despicable then stealing a childs innocence for youf own waroed pleasure

I didn't consider this, but I'm inclined to agree. I argued taking the life of someone as being the most selfish act, but destroying someone's innocence is surely worse. Either way, you're determining their "fate", and that life is not yours to decide upon. But if there's an argument to be made for something other then stealing a child's innocence, a nightmare they're forced to live with for the rest of their life, I'd like to hear it.

But one thing stands out on this subject, the mention of which might get me blasted on the forum: Selfishness isn't always a bad thing. To be selfish, one has to possess a sense of self..... an ethic of believing (or disbelieving) with your own mind and coming to your own conclusions. In essence, this involves living for yourself instead of existing solely for others. That's not a bad thing, although we think of anything selfish as totally bad.

I agree, and I'd argue that selfishness is a need for survival in our society. If we aren't selfish in some way, we lose our sense of being, authenticity, and hope for our future. In fact, in order to be a person who does selfless deeds, we must carry on with some sense of selfishness simply to create a balance. Sometimes, being that "person" who puts their needs above others in situations is doing the right thing. Burnout, depression, and a life of anxiety is in store for the person who attempts to live entirely selfless.

Do you know what someone has to be going through to come to the conclusion that dying is a better option that spending one more day on this earth? I'm tired of blaming the victim. Every day I see hypocrites who say that they would help someone if they were suicidal, that they would lend an ear, blah blah blah. At the end of the day when confronted with someone who is suicidal they freeze up, ignore the person, and then blame them when they kill themselves. If you honestly dont care or cant comprehend why someone is suicidal then by all means dont get involved but to judge someone who is in such dire straits is just plain wrong. I swear, people these days should be forced to take a psychology class before they're allowed to interact with other human beings, especially troubled ones.

What would you say to the person who lends the ear, supports the person, and attempts to explore every avenue with them to make their life better?

In my mind, even those people are being selfish if they are angered or bitter towards the person if they take their life. I would love to say that having that support always makes the difference between the suicidal person taking or continuing to fight for their life, but it simply doesn't. I say that because in my line of work(Im a counseling psychologist), I've seen both sides of the coin, and I've attempted to help be that support, whether it be through talking through options, medication, or involving loved ones. I've had clients take their life, and I used to take it personally. And it was selfish of me, because I was thinking more of myself and my "failure" then of the ultimate desires and needs of that person. I agree, an understanding of the human psyche is important, especially when dealing with a suicidal person. That understanding often leads to self-awareness, and empathy for others, no matter what decision they make.

It's ok to mourn, feel grief, and experience depression when someone we know takes their own life. It's normal, and I'd argue, healthy selfishness. Where it becomes unhealthy selfishness is when you blame the person who took their life for your feelings.

I'm always wary of people who say 'No issue is big enough to kill yourself over' as I just wonder how nice of a life those people have had. While I know that's not always the case, it comes across as being very elitest and something a person with a 'perfect' life would say. I can imagine a couple of scenarios where suicide would be a valid option, to me, in my mind. For example, if anything happened to my children resulting in their death, I would not be able to live without them. I know that from the bottom of my heart.

Just thinking about this is a devastating feeling, let alone it happening altogether. I can imagine it being a paralyzing, unfathomable state where finding the will to even try to pull it back together and integrate oneself into life again as damn near impossible.

But what about the "poor" parents who have always put their needs above their children? Who treat their children as an inconvenience, and don't supply them with their biggest needs, being love, warmth, acceptance, and safety? Would it be as selfish, or selfish at all for those parents to take their lives, allowing for the possibility that their children may live with other family or be adopted into a warm, loving home? Even with children, it's such a gray area. The responsibility of being a parent is great, second only to being a spouse, I believe. But for those that fail at those responsibilities, maybe it leaves their children or spouse in a better place.

I suppose I had alot more to say on this subject then I originally thought. Death to me is always a sad event, be it suicide, illness, natural causes, or someone taking the life of another. I'm especially saddened when someone commits suicide, because they've lived a life, or part of one, with such devastation that they felt they had no other options. In that case, the person isn't being selfish, their making the only choice they have left as they see it. If there seems only one road to take, taking it isn't selfish. It's the ones of us with many choices of roads who vilify those without that are truly the selfish ones.

 

[H33LTurn]

What would you say to the person who lends the ear, supports the person, and attempts to explore every avenue with them to make their life better?

In my mind, even those people are being selfish if they are angered or bitter towards the person if they take their life. I would love to say that having that support always makes the difference between the suicidal person taking or continuing to fight for their life, but it simply doesn't. I say that because in my line of work(Im a counseling psychologist), I've seen both sides of the coin, and I've attempted to help be that support, whether it be through talking through options, medication, or involving loved ones. I've had clients take their life, and I used to take it personally. And it was selfish of me, because I was thinking more of myself and my "failure" then of the ultimate desires and needs of that person. I agree, an understanding of the human psyche is important, especially when dealing with a suicidal person. That understanding often leads to self-awareness, and empathy for others, no matter what decision they make.

It's ok to mourn, feel grief, and experience depression when someone we know takes their own life. It's normal, and I'd argue, healthy selfishness. Where it becomes unhealthy selfishness is when you blame the person who took their life for your feelings.

I'm sorry that the loses had such a huge impact on you. Medical professionals, whether they be in an office or an operating room always take the loss of a patient personally. Its hard to get to know someone, empathize with them, have hope for them just to one day lose them. However we live in a society that spends an unprecedented amount of time questioning those who are in pain instead of those who cause pain. Suicidal individuals tends to think their loved ones will be better off without them. Its not that they're inconsiderate of their peers, its that in their mind they're making the decision they think their peers would approve of. They think any sympathy offered is due to their peers not wanting to feel a sense of responsibility now that the situation has reached such dire proportions. A support group might be useless when someone has made up their mind about suicide, but it could have been effective in any situation beforehand. Those who sat back and did nothing while their friend bullied a classmate, those who forgot about a friend who was always loyal to them, those who purposely hurt others for their entertainment. Instead of pondering how selfish the suicidal person is, how about we hold those cruel and thoughtless individuals accountable. How is suicide more selfish than purposely hurting someone to the point they no longer want to live?