Ok, I am not trying to star a heated argument or here or anything. I would just like some honest feedback from people of different ages and preferences. This came into my mind after watching the promos of HHH and Taker the last couple weeks. As soon as they start talking I am sucked in and it just seems to feel real. Same with when HBK comes back, and even when he was still wrestling full time his programs were always seemingly the most interesting. A few years back when Ricky steamboat had his short return he was even overshadowing everything else that was going on. Now I get that I am talking about some of the best in the world here, but I can remember in the early 90's being so into what these same people were doing when they were in the midcard. I could list more examples but I think you can see where I am going. Now I understand that growing up in the 80's and 90's that I am biased and this is just one man's opinion, but it seems like today's stars are just missing something. The only time i can remember getting really pumped for a match featuring the stars of today was CM Punk and Cena at MITB. I can see that there is a lot of talent on the current roster, but again that it factor seems to be missing from all but a few. So what I guess I am looking for is am I the one missing something, is it the pg era, were yesterday's stars really that much better, or is it a combination of a lot of different things?
Stars of past eras vs Today
- Thread starter HBsam31
- Start date
supernatural1981
Pre-Show Stalwart
to be honest with you mate it's a combination of a few things.
1- the booking is totally differanttoday compared to how it was say 15-20 years ago where they would start a storyline arc with a begining-middle and the payoff would be at one of the major ppv's so the stars of then had to compell you with there micwork because a fued couldbegoingon for 6+ months andthey needed you to stick with it for the pay off.
2- you mentioned steamboat and hbk as examples,well they along with mostof the older wrestlers wentthrough the territory system which just aint around no more so it gave them a chance to see what worked with crowds rather thanjust being put on tv and if you didnt draw on your first PPV like nowadays you get labbelled as crap and sent to FCW.
1- the booking is totally differanttoday compared to how it was say 15-20 years ago where they would start a storyline arc with a begining-middle and the payoff would be at one of the major ppv's so the stars of then had to compell you with there micwork because a fued couldbegoingon for 6+ months andthey needed you to stick with it for the pay off.
2- you mentioned steamboat and hbk as examples,well they along with mostof the older wrestlers wentthrough the territory system which just aint around no more so it gave them a chance to see what worked with crowds rather thanjust being put on tv and if you didnt draw on your first PPV like nowadays you get labbelled as crap and sent to FCW.
Booking is the only problem the company has now. PG is fine and can work with logical storylines and proper progression.
That said, my biggest annoyance with today's stars is their need to run down everyone else on the roster. Look at Punk saying ADR can't cut promos and is boring, Cena calling out his gimmick as being fake, Triple H taking a swipe at mid-carders whenever he can, Michael Cole thrashing lower card acts and loads more.
It's just ridiculous for a company to put down their own stars so much, these are the guys who might sell a few tickets for you one day and you're not giving them a chance to ever get over. Look back to the early 90s, when you would have the Brain and Gorilla putting over everyone on commentary, you'd have Flair selling for mid-carders in matches or Bret Hart making it look like jobbers might have a legitimate chance of beating him. That's what has really changed
That said, my biggest annoyance with today's stars is their need to run down everyone else on the roster. Look at Punk saying ADR can't cut promos and is boring, Cena calling out his gimmick as being fake, Triple H taking a swipe at mid-carders whenever he can, Michael Cole thrashing lower card acts and loads more.
It's just ridiculous for a company to put down their own stars so much, these are the guys who might sell a few tickets for you one day and you're not giving them a chance to ever get over. Look back to the early 90s, when you would have the Brain and Gorilla putting over everyone on commentary, you'd have Flair selling for mid-carders in matches or Bret Hart making it look like jobbers might have a legitimate chance of beating him. That's what has really changed
I am hoping to get a better response than this because this is seriously a valid question. I am not wishing for another attitude era by any means, I am just asking them to get me invested in the characters a lot more. There is not one person today that i would really miss if he left. Punk is the exception, but even at that he does not bring out emotion in me. I agree with the poster that said about the territory system. It had to make a big difference working with such a variation of talent with different styles. Like I said before something is definitely missing.
I'm gonna be very careful with the words I choose here, so here we go.
IMO, like other people are saying, it's the way these guys are being booked. People don't seem to care about them and they don't have gimmicks. Back in the AE, people lived off gimmicks that got a reaction from the crowd. Austin was the SOB that would whip anybody's ass if he felt like it, The Rock was the most charismatic character on the mic, HHH was The Game, the best heel in the business and would turn on you in a heartbeat, and so on and so on. Even mid carders as well. Benoit was the Crippler, Angle was the nerdy Olympic Gold Medalist, you had guys like Val Venis, Godfather, D-Lo Brown, etc. All had characters that, in that time period, got over HUGE.
Today, it seems like people want THAT. Not necessarily the AE, because an Era that great won't happen again, but they want people with characters and catchy themes and superstars that they can invest their time and actually care about. I love Wade Barrett, but what's his gimmick? I like Jack Swagger, but what's his gimmick? I like Drew McIntyre, but what's his gimmick? I like the Divas, but they all seem the SAME. They come out in flashy outfits and girly music. The Divas of the AE didn't. What sets these people apart from guys like Punk, Cena, Bryan, Santino, Ziggler, Truth, Miz, Orton, Chyna, Trish, Lita, Mickie, etc.. people who have characters and get crowd reactions, and more importantly, get the crowd to actually care about them.
And the promos. Like the OP said, in the AE, promos would be a lot different. The build, the passion, the hatred, the intensity, the moments. This is what makes and breaks superstars in the WWE. This is what puts you over the top and gets you noticed. I don't see the same passion like there used to be in promos to the point where you believed these guys hated each other and you wanted to see what happened. The closest we get to great WWE TV is when WrestleMania Season comes around and maybe sometimes in the Summer.
It's really the booking plain and simple. I place most of the blame the demographic WWE is going for here. Austin and Rock reactions would BLOW THE ROOF off of any Arena. Punk and Cena, as good as they are, will likely never get those types of reactions. The times are different, crowds are different, and booking needs to handled a lot more carefully.
I would say more, but I can't really think of anything else right now.
IMO, like other people are saying, it's the way these guys are being booked. People don't seem to care about them and they don't have gimmicks. Back in the AE, people lived off gimmicks that got a reaction from the crowd. Austin was the SOB that would whip anybody's ass if he felt like it, The Rock was the most charismatic character on the mic, HHH was The Game, the best heel in the business and would turn on you in a heartbeat, and so on and so on. Even mid carders as well. Benoit was the Crippler, Angle was the nerdy Olympic Gold Medalist, you had guys like Val Venis, Godfather, D-Lo Brown, etc. All had characters that, in that time period, got over HUGE.
Today, it seems like people want THAT. Not necessarily the AE, because an Era that great won't happen again, but they want people with characters and catchy themes and superstars that they can invest their time and actually care about. I love Wade Barrett, but what's his gimmick? I like Jack Swagger, but what's his gimmick? I like Drew McIntyre, but what's his gimmick? I like the Divas, but they all seem the SAME. They come out in flashy outfits and girly music. The Divas of the AE didn't. What sets these people apart from guys like Punk, Cena, Bryan, Santino, Ziggler, Truth, Miz, Orton, Chyna, Trish, Lita, Mickie, etc.. people who have characters and get crowd reactions, and more importantly, get the crowd to actually care about them.
And the promos. Like the OP said, in the AE, promos would be a lot different. The build, the passion, the hatred, the intensity, the moments. This is what makes and breaks superstars in the WWE. This is what puts you over the top and gets you noticed. I don't see the same passion like there used to be in promos to the point where you believed these guys hated each other and you wanted to see what happened. The closest we get to great WWE TV is when WrestleMania Season comes around and maybe sometimes in the Summer.
It's really the booking plain and simple. I place most of the blame the demographic WWE is going for here. Austin and Rock reactions would BLOW THE ROOF off of any Arena. Punk and Cena, as good as they are, will likely never get those types of reactions. The times are different, crowds are different, and booking needs to handled a lot more carefully.
I would say more, but I can't really think of anything else right now.
I'm gonna be very careful with the words I choose here, so here we go.
IMO, like other people are saying, it's the way these guys are being booked. People don't seem to care about them and they don't have gimmicks. Back in the AE, people lived off gimmicks that got a reaction from the crowd. Austin was the SOB that would whip anybody's ass if he felt like it, The Rock was the most charismatic character on the mic, HHH was The Game, the best heel in the business and would turn on you in a heartbeat, and so on and so on. Even mid carders as well. Benoit was the Crippler, Angle was the nerdy Olympic Gold Medalist, you had guys like Val Venis, Godfather, D-Lo Brown, etc. All had characters that, in that time period, got over HUGE.
Today, it seems like people want THAT. Not necessarily the AE, because an Era that great won't happen again, but they want people with characters and catchy themes and superstars that they can invest their time and actually care about. I love Wade Barrett, but what's his gimmick? I like Jack Swagger, but what's his gimmick? I like Drew McIntyre, but what's his gimmick? I like the Divas, but they all seem the SAME. They come out in flashy outfits and girly music. The Divas of the AE didn't. What sets these people apart from guys like Punk, Cena, Bryan, Santino, Ziggler, Truth, Miz, Orton, Chyna, Trish, Lita, Mickie, etc.. people who have characters and get crowd reactions, and more importantly, get the crowd to actually care about them.
And the promos. Like the OP said, in the AE, promos would be a lot different. The build, the passion, the hatred, the intensity, the moments. This is what makes and breaks superstars in the WWE. This is what puts you over the top and gets you noticed. I don't see the same passion like there used to be in promos to the point where you believed these guys hated each other and you wanted to see what happened. The closest we get to great WWE TV is when WrestleMania Season comes around and maybe sometimes in the Summer.
It's really the booking plain and simple. I place most of the blame the demographic WWE is going for here. Austin and Rock reactions would BLOW THE ROOF off of any Arena. Punk and Cena, as good as they are, will likely never get those types of reactions. The times are different, crowds are different, and booking needs to handled a lot more carefully.
I would say more, but I can't really think of anything else right now.
I agree with everything you said except the part about the demographic. I was a kid in the Hogan era, and if those were not child driven characters I don't know what were. Hogan and warrior blew the roof of places. I liken this current era to the new generation era, where the only person getting a great reaction was bret hart. If I am not mistaken the ratings were in the tank then, and it eventually lead to the more edgy product in the attitude era. We got a breath of fresh air with the punk promo, but they tanked it after that, and as far as I can see we are right back where we started. Ok tanked it may be a little harsh, but punk immediately lost a lot of steam when they rushed him back. Another thing that concerns me is I took the highroad, and didn't bash today's era, but maybe that's what I needed to do to get people interested in the conversation. I wanted intelligent discussion, and got very few bites.
FlairFan2003
Mid-Card Championship Winner
The Attitude Era is actually what caused this, shorter feuds, cartoonish gimmicks, crash TV, etc. The guys who survived like Austin, Rock, & HHH had charisma, that is something that can not be taught, you have it or you dont. Many of these newer guys dont have that "it" factor.
The loss of suitable competition and the end of the territory system does hurt, guys are not able to hone their skills before hitting WWE. Back in the 80s McMahon relied heavily on the territories (and occasionally larger companies like AWA or Crockett), practically building his entire roster from established veterans who learned and perfected their crafts elsewhere till they were main eventing. Steamboat, Savage, DiBiase, Piper, Valentine, Rude, Santana, Blanchard, Anderson, Road Warriors, Flair, Henning, Hall, and Hogan all established top guys before they won titles and main evented for Vince. There isnt much opportunity for talent to develop anymore.
Booking is different yes, partly due to the limitations of talent but more because the business model has changed. Even before the Crash TV of the Attitude Era, WCW was holding monthly PPVs, meaning faster story telling, quicker arcs, it became harder to follow. However, even a low rated PPV could generate a nice profit, and WWE was forced to match them. WCW changed the way TV was booked giving us main event matches like Luger-Savage and Flair-Hogan on Nitro to compete with WWEs boring jobber matches. When it worked RAW had to adapt, now we get at least 2-3 main event caliber matches every week. Fans expect it though so even though Nitro is gone you cant turn back. It does desensitize you a bit to the importance of these bouts, they are not as special.
Still, at the end of the day, all other changes aside, so many of these guys just seem to lack the charisma of their predecessors. Certainly Batista became a star in this era, Cena is huge, Punk has done well. While the changes in the industry havent helped, maybe some of these guys are not as good
The loss of suitable competition and the end of the territory system does hurt, guys are not able to hone their skills before hitting WWE. Back in the 80s McMahon relied heavily on the territories (and occasionally larger companies like AWA or Crockett), practically building his entire roster from established veterans who learned and perfected their crafts elsewhere till they were main eventing. Steamboat, Savage, DiBiase, Piper, Valentine, Rude, Santana, Blanchard, Anderson, Road Warriors, Flair, Henning, Hall, and Hogan all established top guys before they won titles and main evented for Vince. There isnt much opportunity for talent to develop anymore.
Booking is different yes, partly due to the limitations of talent but more because the business model has changed. Even before the Crash TV of the Attitude Era, WCW was holding monthly PPVs, meaning faster story telling, quicker arcs, it became harder to follow. However, even a low rated PPV could generate a nice profit, and WWE was forced to match them. WCW changed the way TV was booked giving us main event matches like Luger-Savage and Flair-Hogan on Nitro to compete with WWEs boring jobber matches. When it worked RAW had to adapt, now we get at least 2-3 main event caliber matches every week. Fans expect it though so even though Nitro is gone you cant turn back. It does desensitize you a bit to the importance of these bouts, they are not as special.
Still, at the end of the day, all other changes aside, so many of these guys just seem to lack the charisma of their predecessors. Certainly Batista became a star in this era, Cena is huge, Punk has done well. While the changes in the industry havent helped, maybe some of these guys are not as good
WrestlingDream
WrestlingDream
IMO today's guys (With the exception of Punk) don't care like they used to. I look at it this way, if it helps at all. If there was to be some kind of massive shift of power and WWE was no longer the powerhouse they are and territories started again. a large portion of these guys would quit the business.
During the Attitude Era, there was a MAJOR competitive force from WCW. TNA is nowhere close to WWE and WWE stars know that, therefore IMO, not trying as hard. I started realizing this with Carlito. The guy had so much potential, but he got comfortable, for lack of a better word.
WWE today is like the spoiled rich kids as compared to a blue collared working class of every generation before them and it shows. I don't mind todays product, but it is a far, far stretch from what it used to be.
During the Attitude Era, there was a MAJOR competitive force from WCW. TNA is nowhere close to WWE and WWE stars know that, therefore IMO, not trying as hard. I started realizing this with Carlito. The guy had so much potential, but he got comfortable, for lack of a better word.
WWE today is like the spoiled rich kids as compared to a blue collared working class of every generation before them and it shows. I don't mind todays product, but it is a far, far stretch from what it used to be.
Another part of the problem with not having another fed on the same footing as WWE is there's really nowhere a wrestler can go to refresh their gimmck by working in front of a whole new set of fans. Yeah there's ROH and TNA but going there would mean taking a major paycut. A wrestler could go to Japan but that means they would have to pretty much move to the other side of the world and learn a new language. Wrestling lost a lot when WCW folded.
BaconBits
WZ Czar of Steaks
To some degree, when people look at past eras of wrestling and declare it to be way better than the current product, there is a fair amount of revisionist history going on.
I don't think the current booking is any better or worse than it was in past eras.
It's just that the talent itself is less interesting anymore, particularly in the midcard. They don't have have the strong personalities the rosters have had in other eras.
There have been other eras in the history of pro wrestling when it felt like the roster was lacking, like it currently is. It's never been permanent, though, and within a couple of years, a couple new mega-stars are born and it filters on down through the roster and picks up the whole product.
Wrestling has always gone through ebbs and flows. Sure, it's kind of in a down time right now, but I have a feeling that things will pick up in a couple years.
I don't think the current booking is any better or worse than it was in past eras.
It's just that the talent itself is less interesting anymore, particularly in the midcard. They don't have have the strong personalities the rosters have had in other eras.
There have been other eras in the history of pro wrestling when it felt like the roster was lacking, like it currently is. It's never been permanent, though, and within a couple of years, a couple new mega-stars are born and it filters on down through the roster and picks up the whole product.
Wrestling has always gone through ebbs and flows. Sure, it's kind of in a down time right now, but I have a feeling that things will pick up in a couple years.