should WWE stop cutting down arsenals

Wrestlingfan100

Pre-Show Stalwart
The cut down of movesets really didn't take off until the passing of Eddie and Beniot. Back before that you had more styles granted not many people were as familiar with other wrestling styles since their was no Youtube yet. I feel if they stop cutting down movesets we could see better matches. I marked out when Evan Bourne suplexed R Truth at Night of Champions or when Justin Gabriel did that powerbomb move to Cena on Raw last year. I understand that some moves aren't exactly safe but what people tend to forget is when you are a wrestler you are
trained in a wrestling school to do moves and I feel more extensive arsenals could give us some great matches.
 
Yes!

This is what I watch TNA for. Hardcore matches, fast paced cruiserweights, crazy spots, and decent wrestling.

The fact that Bobby Roode, Kurt Angle, James Storm, the X Division, Abyss etc. can have great, entertaining matches on PPV and (sometimes on) TV, is because they don't seem to go through the motions that WWE wrestlers do.

To me, WWE matches just seem really slow, only getting exciting in the last 5 minutes where there are nearfalls. With the talent they have (most being underutilize), matches can be more exciting, and the crowd on TV might have a reason to make noise, not just sit on their hands for 90% of the show until Cena is on. There wouldn't be a need for dubbed pops and boos neither.

Unfortunately, as far as in ring content goes, the most exciting thing I've seen all year is this:

[YOUTUBE]_Q5VOTHR0zQ[/YOUTUBE]
 
The cut down of movesets really didn't take off until the passing of Eddie and Beniot.

False. Top guys in WWE were rarely the guys with the biggest movesets. Just look at Hogan and Warrior. And the answer to your thread question is no. It doesn't matter how many moves you can perform, the skill is getting people to care that you're doing them.

Back before that you had more styles granted not many people were as familiar with other wrestling styles since their was no Youtube yet.

The smarks were just as fond of foreign wrestling then as they are now. They just swapped tapes rather than watch youtube. Said tapes got Jericho and I believe Benoit jobs in the USA.

I feel if they stop cutting down movesets we could see better matches.

Two guys with reduced movesets (Cena and Punk) put on the best WWE match in years. I rest my case.

I marked out when Evan Bourne suplexed R Truth at Night of Champions or when Justin Gabriel did that powerbomb move to Cena on Raw last year.

So you marked out for two moves that aren't exactly uncommon (Cena does a modified Blue Thunder Bomb in most matches and every wrestler on the planet knows how to throw a suplex)

I understand that some moves aren't exactly safe but what people tend to forget is when you are a wrestler you are
trained in a wrestling school to do moves and I feel more extensive arsenals could give us some great matches.

And you'd be wrong. Moves don't matter. If they did Justin Gabriel would be doing standing shooting star presses, Springboard Armdrags, Swanton Bombs and Hurricane DDTs as well as 450 splashes; John Morrison would be over as a rover, Jack Swagger's title run would have succeeded, Sheamus would be doing stupid shit on a regular basis, Wade Barrett would be demonstrating his shoot wrestling skills and agility while John Cena jobs to everyone.
 
*sigh* Its WWE "Move cut down complaint thread #103862739."
Honestly...They ARE cutting it. You can see it.

Daniel Bryan has been given clearance to use MORE of his older submission moves.
Cena vs Punk. Hang on wait a minute...ALL 3 of those matches were VERY VERY different...and all had very different moves.
Christian/Orton were EXTREMILY exciting matches and that's ALL of the matches...not just 1.

Fact: Because WWE matches are not horrible spot fests, they are not "uninteresting."

The video above just shows me that the poster above wants spot fests. Yeah, go watch TNA. Fact is though, certain moves...well they CAN'T be sheilded against. Chops? They hurt like HELL and they actually connect, hence why the chest gets welted during the matches. Chokes? Well these were banned when the Benoit incident happened but...they are fine to give MULTIPLE people variations of the crossface now.

Many many moves have been "unblocked."
Notice how when Kidman had his neck broken, they banned the SSP? Now how often do we see it?
The 450 was banned at one point too but it's back.

WWE likes to take precautions to save its stars. Good for the WWE. I would rather know, if I'm a worker in the industry, that my health is going to be preserved and I CANT do things that will nearly kill me.
 
I'm not into spot fests, but the crowd seemed to be as into the spot as I was judging from the reaction.

You don't get that reaction from a normal superplex.
 
I think WWE should stop cutting down movesets from the wrestlers. Why not give them the freedom to do what makes sense? If someone is told to cut down their offense, then at least part of their character is censored. For some guys that could be the difference between getting over and not. It sends out the message that wrestlers can't be themselves and limit potential 5 star matches.

WWE is fond of doing big tag matches and singles matches with screwy roll ups or run ins. TNA also is guilty of that to a large extent, but TNA does occasionally have matches where a guy's moves aren't censored. Both take away from moves that are utilized in the ring and completely ignore what offense is used in the match. Thus rendering the moves irrelevant and effectively killing any momentum the match had.


I do think that cutting moves down doesn't completely limit a wrestler to having bad matches. However, limiting or censoring a potential 5 star match with another run of the mill match isn't a smart business move. And it completely emphasizes entertainment over wrestling. A trend that is far too popular and overused. Fans want wrestling as much as entertainment, but judging by the pattern WWE has you'd never know that. Unfortunate since alot of guys have the potential to be breakout stars but can't show it.
 
I'm not into spot fests, but the crowd seemed to be as into the spot as I was judging from the reaction.

You don't get that reaction from a normal superplex.

And the guys who are consistently over restrictions or not don't need to half kill themselves in order to get a reaction from the crowd like those guys did/do.

I think WWE should stop cutting down movesets from the wrestlers. Why not give them the freedom to do what makes sense?

Because most of what's cut makes no sence? Allow me to demonstrate with Justin Gabriel. Before he went to FCW he'd regularly hit a Swanton Bomb or a moonsault out of the corner. These moves would never end the match but were performed from the exact same position as his finisher. So why would he do them rather than his finisher?

Additionally, a big part of the reaosn for cutting down the movesets is so that the crowd knows what moves to react to and building up to one big finishing moment. Having a bazillion flashy moves defeats the purpose.

If someone is told to cut down their offense, then at least part of their character is censored. For some guys that could be the difference between getting over and not.

If a guy's only getting over based on his moveset he was going to fail anyway. This is why Miz is a former world champion and Morrison is not.

It sends out the message that wrestlers can't be themselves and limit potential 5 star matches.

Cena and Punk (two guys who have a limited moveset) had a five star match. Your arguement is void.

WWE is fond of doing big tag matches and singles matches with screwy roll ups or run ins.

They do this so people will pay to see the match on PPV with a clean ending.

TNA also is guilty of that to a large extent, but TNA does occasionally have matches where a guy's moves aren't censored.

And WWE make more money and get higher ratings and have the MOTY in the bad. They win.

Both take away from moves that are utilized in the ring and completely ignore what offense is used in the match.

Bullshit. Unclean finishes usually serve a purpose (to make people pay to see a clean finish later down the line) and rollups and screwjob finishes can make sence in context. Watch Leo Kruger vs Xavier Woods and Leo Kruger vs Bo Rotundo 1 and 2 for evidence of that.

In the against Woods Kruger wins by blocking a rollup and hooks the leg he'd been working on throughout the match, in his first against Bo he loses via DQ but still looked like he could have won if he wanted to and in the second he wins after a run in. The end result is that he looked like he could beat Bo which led to a third and final match. If FCW did PPVs it would have happened then. Simple, effective and logical storytelling.

Thus rendering the moves irrelevant and effectively killing any momentum the match had.

Hulk Hogan getting screwed by Ted DiBiase and Earl Hebner is the most watched match in wrestling history and built up a lot of momentum to Wrestlemania. Your point is void.

I do think that cutting moves down doesn't completely limit a wrestler to having bad matches. However, limiting or censoring a potential 5 star match with another run of the mill match isn't a smart business move.

I strongly doubt that any wrestler who can't get over on a restricted moveset would get over anyway.

And it completely emphasizes entertainment over wrestling.

Only one of those things is a draw. Hogan was a great entertainer, Benoit was a great wrestler. Who made more money for WWE?

A trend that is far too popular and overused. Fans want wrestling as much as entertainment, but judging by the pattern WWE has you'd never know that.

Could it be because the people who have been working in the industry for decades through two boom periods championed by supremely charismatic entertainers know better than idiots on the internet?

Unfortunate since alot of guys have the potential to be breakout stars but can't show it.

Name one guy who can't get over because he's working on a restricted moveset.
 
what is restricted the stupid spotfests or the overly dangerous moves? I think the WWE can let their wrestlers use more moves or better movesets but I think storytelling is more important. I don't have to watch 20 piledrivervariants and over the top moves to be entertained.
 
I 100% agree with Kotri. Moves are just a part of the story. You use one move or spot to move the story from point A to point B. Doing cool moves for the sake of doing cool moves is pointless! The moves themselves only become significant once they have been established and then can be integrated into the story of the match. So in closing, do I think they could use different moves? Sure, as long as they know how and when to use them as thats entirely more important than the move itself... But do I think they need to use them? ABSOLUTELY NOT.
 
I would enjoy seeing more suplexes and stuff. There's way too many god damn headlocks. DBD is the only one who replaces headlocks with various submissions and makes it interesting.
 
If WWE would realize exactly how entertaining it is to see wrestlers pull off a different move in different matches for different situations they'd be better off with he fans (it would take away from the immature albeit humorous "PG sucks" complaints). It's a good way to allow your talent to grow and even innovate new moves and have a lasting legacy for what they do bell-to-bell.

How I see it, if WWE wants to be recognized as "Sports Entertainment" they need to put some emphasis on the "Sports" side of wrestling. Because Sports entertain people and adding the soap opera storyline is just icing on the cake. It's honorable that they want to protect their talent (or maybe not depending on how you look at it) but you can't paper bad diversity.
 
Yes. I get that they're trying to manufacture crowd response by stripping down the match to its basics and giving every superstar a limited arsenal so the fans know what's coming. I get that FCW is nowhere near the stomping grounds that OVW was, and still is to this day. But I would take a grungy, fast-paced, unpredictable technical match over a sterile, over-produced match any day of the week.
 
In some cases, cutting movesets is annoying and detrimental. For example, in all of DBD's time in WWE, I've only seen him go for Cattle Mutilation ONCE, and it was locked on Darren Young for less than a second. And also, there's no denying that a lot of indie wrestler's picked up by WWE like Punk, Mistico, and Kaval had their movesets trimmed. I, for one, am a huge fan of wrestler's who have a large moveset for lengthy matches, but can have specific set of moves used for the set-up to the end so we know when to get hyped (i.e. HBK, Taker, Orton, Booker, Edge, etc.)

However, there are some restrictions that are understandable. I'm ok with the moveset restrictions in certain situations. To be honest, most wrestler's who start out on FCW rather than an indie promotion are either stiff as hell or can't sell for crap. So if WWE asked someone like Otunga to take a Burning Hammer or a Gringo Killer (moves which WILL fuck you up if not sold properly), I'd be worried for his health. And if Sin Cara goes all-out lucha style against, say, Mason Ryan, the result would be tragic. So sometimes it's ok, otherwise it should stop
 
What I would like to ask is, how many moves can you perform in a 15 minute match anyway? And yes performing those moves should make some sort of sense from a storytelling point of view. On top of that you have got to allow your opponent to perform a few moves on you as well and sell his moves too. As it turns out, you are not able to perform more than 8-10 moves in such a match and most matches last even less than 15 minutes. So why have a moveset that consists of more than 8 or 10 moves?

And theoretically a wrestler's moveset consists of many moves, but he just does not use those moves regularly. Look at Cena using the dropkick. He can use the move but he does not generally use it till all of his other offense, which can put most guys away, fails. It makes sense from a kayfabe point of view.

As for repeating the same 8 or 10 moves every match, it helps the audience connect to the character of a wrestler. It helps the crowd understand when the highspots in the match are going to come and react to it accordingly to them according to the alignment of a wrestler. Using different moves in different matches does not really give you that big of a reaction as a signature move gets.

Now, do you have anything else to ask?
 
And the guys who are consistently over restrictions or not don't need to half kill themselves in order to get a reaction from the crowd like those guys did/do.

While restrictions may not limit certain performers, it surely does limit the wrestlers who aren't given a decent amount of time to perform in the ring. Zack Ryder is a good example here, as he rarely gets over 5 minutes in the ring. How is that NOT LIMITING someone? Being told you have 5 minutes or less to make a match work isn't my idea of having a golden opportunity. Not all guys are limited to 5 minutes or less, but more often than not, they are limited in one form or another.



Because most of what's cut makes no sence? Allow me to demonstrate with Justin Gabriel. Before he went to FCW he'd regularly hit a Swanton Bomb or a moonsault out of the corner. These moves would never end the match but were performed from the exact same position as his finisher. So why would he do them rather than his finisher?

A wrestler being able to utilize multiple moves gives them the appearance of being more of a threat inside the ring. Gabriel is a perfect example, if he were allowed more than just a 450 splash in his match, maybe he would be considered a completely diverse high flyer. IMO, having more offensive moves in FCW is precisely what is wrong with WWE currently. WWE has done a great job of making his 450 look like the most devastating move in wrestling, but that's really the only high flying manuever he uses. Not really my definition of him having a deep arsenal. And surely doesn't do him any favors as far as having great matches. While his matches are good, with more moves he could be alot better in the ring.

Additionally, a big part of the reaosn for cutting down the movesets is so that the crowd knows what moves to react to and building up to one big finishing moment. Having a bazillion flashy moves defeats the purpose.

There's a huge difference between having a diversified moveset and using a "bazillion moves". Using alternative moves means you have more than one way to end a match. All of Justin Gabriel's matches end in a 450. How predictable and boring is that? I do think it's an awesome and devastating looking finisher, but IMO having a complete moveset allows different ways of finishing a match. More often than not, he does little offensive moves other than a 450. I'm not advocating for him to do only high flying moves, but if he had more devastating offense, he'd be considered a better in ring worker.



If a guy's only getting over based on his moveset he was going to fail anyway. This is why Miz is a former world champion and Morrison is not.

That's not necessarily a fact(as you would have us believe). Plenty of guys have gotten over based on doing insane moves. Remember Jeff Hardy and Matt Hardy? The only reason Jeff has been successful as a wrestler is b/c of his moveset. Cause it sure isn't his overwhelming presence or charismatic persona. I'm sure there are other examples of that to list here, but I believe this emphasizes my position on the issue.



Cena and Punk (two guys who have a limited moveset) had a five star match. Your arguement is void.

There are exceptions to every rule, while their movesets are consistently the same, they have received longer in ring time. Both PPV matches they had were about 30 minutes in length(which is a shitload of time by WWE standards). Movesets aren't the only way WWE can limit their in ring work. Also cutting the matches down to 10 minutes or less minimizes how effective a wrestler can be. Obviously not getting enough in ring time is a huge reason why certain wrestlers can't break out. Again, Zack Ryder is a good example, how can he have 5 stars matches with 10 minutes or less in a match? It sure isn't enough time to develop a great in ring routine. So, IMO my argument IS VALID and is as thought out as yours and definately more explained.


Bullshit. Unclean finishes usually serve a purpose (to make people pay to see a clean finish later down the line) and rollups and screwjob finishes can make sence in context. Watch Leo Kruger vs Xavier Woods and Leo Kruger vs Bo Rotundo 1 and 2 for evidence of that.

I have to call bullshit on your logic here. Unclean finishes DO serve a purpose, but in both WWE and TNA, they overuse those finishes. Have you not noticed how played out and boring those finishes are if they are done in practically EVERY MATCH? Done occasionally, yeah they work well, but otherwise they end up not being very effective at all. Using unclean finishes is an artform, and one that WWE and TNA has forgotten how to use properly. If you believe WWE and TNA uses them productively, then you are very delusional.


Hulk Hogan getting screwed by Ted DiBiase and Earl Hebner is the most watched match in wrestling history and built up a lot of momentum to Wrestlemania. Your point is void.

I have to almost laugh at your logic here. While unclean finishes do serve a purpose, again overuse makes them pointless. Alot of historic matches have used them, no argument there, but today it is a lost artform in WWE and TNA. If you truly think they are used in a proper and balanced way, then you are blinded to the obvious. Roll ups, run ins, and any other unclean finish is rendered virtually irrelevant if you see it so often you expect it. The best way to use it is when no one sees it coming. Unfortunately, in today's wrestling it's expected and not as shocking a concept as it used to be.


Only one of those things is a draw. Hogan was a great entertainer, Benoit was a great wrestler. Who made more money for WWE?

I find it ridiculous that you claim wrestling isn't a "draw" for WWE. If anything, the ratings decreases proves that fans are tired of the same old boring "entertainment" we have been treated to. Millions of fans tuning in to something other than wrestling proves fans want a change.

Entertainment is fine, but everthing ultimately comes down to in ring work. Without it, the whole premise of wrestling is useless. All of Hulk Hogan's "entertainment" came down to him performing in the ring.



Could it be because the people who have been working in the industry for decades through two boom periods championed by supremely charismatic entertainers know better than idiots on the internet?

There definately no way of dismissing WWE's knowledge of the business, but you can't claim wrestling doesn't matter anymore. Fans are smart enough to realize that wrestling has and always will be a vital part of the shows. Name calling does nothing more than make you look like a shallow mark who has a superiority complex. If WWE doesn't listen to what the fans want, then they look a large part of their fanbase. And their current ratings reflect thay viewpoint.
 
No, move-sets should no be increased. Everyone who's not an idiot knows that the number of moves a wrestler performs does not equal better matches. That's what in comes down to. John Cena has put on some of the best matches I've ever seen. Does he possess a vast move-set? Not really, but he can tell a story. He can work at match competently. And he can make me care about what he's doing between the ropes. That's what great wrestling is, not how many moves someone can do.

WWE has done a great job since the Attitude Era in conditioning their audience, not just in terms of moves, but also spots. There is a difference. They went from crazy TLC and Hell In A Cell matches were wrestlers risked life and limb, to more toned down matches. To a fool, this would seem bad. When in actual fact, this is a good thing. It makes those stand-out moments all the more special. Sure, WWE could have an Ultimate X match every other Raw, but after a while, it gets stale. Where do you go from there? Matches would become more violent as WWE keeps on trying to push the envelope and (importantly) wrestlers would be at greater risk of injury.
 
money, money, money, training crowd, timing BLAH BLAH BLAH Shut the hell up!!!!

I can enjoy Most things from spotfests to storytelling classics but I will always be loyal too more moves. There is nothing wrong with a diversified move-set. who the fuck cares if they have too almost kill themselves to do it? Not me because its entertaining. In terms of WWE right now I think that they have cut down move sets, but not to the point of tragedy. I hate slow paced action that goes on forever and im sure the WWe universe does too.

As long as WWE doesnt cut them down any further I am happy.
 
A lot of if comes down to the gimmick too, if a guy isn't billed as a technician or having an amateur background anything to that degree, it shouldn't be surprising that he doesn't put on a grappling clinic in his matches. A few examples are that "Stunning" Steve Austin had more moves than "Stone Cold" Steve Austin and Rocky Maivia had more moves than The Rock.
 
id really like to see some of the moves they use in the wwe's games used for finishers. Like remember the screwdriver from no mercy, its kinda like a move where they lift the guy up for a suplex and then drop them down piledriver style. Other moves like whens the last time we saw someone do the ten german suplexes in a row, or the half nelson german suplex. I saw a move a while back on tna by jack evans where he slid through the second rope and did a hurricanrana on some guy and it looked so sweet. I like to watch wrestling to see great matches, but it would be nice to see each guy have a unique finishing move that sets them apart. Like the Undertaker was the only guy until kane who used the tombstone, which also begs the question when was the last time kane used a tombstone to win a match? I want more moves i want the screwdriver the canadian destroyer top rope powerbombs i want it all.
 
i alway think of wrestling as great matches but also how good a wrestling is if they can kick out of a deadly finisher. Like if someone kicked out of a screwdriver, or a fire thunder driver. Like if brock lesnar hit u with the triple power bomb or the f 5 and the guy kicks out of it then your like wow this is great. I know i enjoyed the kane vs undertaker match at wrestlemania 15. Undertaker kept having to tombstone kane, it took 3 to put the big man away.
 

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