Should TNA be like the Larry Sanders Show? - Formula

[Marty2Hotty]

I wanted to create a new thread for my new view. Im watching a DVD i bought ages ago: Larry Sanders 2007 release of his best shows..

Gilbertti on a thread said he wanted TNA to be like the Larry Sanders show. He didn't get into specifics, but I'm assuming he wanted characters to break kayfabe and interact with each other in that way and when they go live in front of the camera, it'd be like how Larry Sanders is doing his talk show...

Basically wrestling has done everything and is pretty predictable in nature. The Internet has made all the backstage news facts and it's pretty difficult to surprise the viewer now. nWo was fresh at the time. The attitute era headed by Russo was super fresh and pushed the boundaries of what we'd naturally expect to see on a wrestling show.

I would like Gilbertti to comment on this and actually clarify what he meant by wanting TNA to be like the Larry Sanders show. I think this will make interesting discussion and would basically take wrestling to a level ALL wrestling fans have never seen before. It'll also give it more of a comedic/dramatic and REALISTIC element that we don't necessarily see all the time in the backstage segments.

Like wrestlers talking to writers, etc.

I think that'd be a great interesting twist to wrestling and I actually think TV CRITICS as a whole would embrace it if it was done well..

THOUGHTS?

 

[andremt9]

I think that the Wrestling evolved, and today isn't the 80's. Wrestling federations should bring most "real" stories possible using facts of the lives of wrestlers and remove gimmicks of fancy and some old cliches of the Wrestling, as the giant monster unbeatable, and the heel that is only victorious stolen and that runs away after the match...

When WWE used true facts (The Lita-Matt-Edge case) and mixed up with storyline ,was delivered one of most intense and good feuds of today wrestling.When TNA made a most real Wrestling product (Angle vs. Joe - Lockdown) was the most spoken match in TNA history,and like Bischoff says,controversy creates cash.

 

[finoj05]

Breaking Kayfabe is stupid. I hate when wrestlers refer to themselves as Heel or faces. Team 3D did it earlier this year.

What you need to do is change what Kayfabe is. Make Kayfabe more realistic.

There needs to be more of "That wasn't supposed to happen" not "That wasn't in the script" "By god... Samoa Joe is breaking kayfabe" or anything like that. Don't refer to the fact that the show is scripted and planned. Refer to it as a legitimate reality show/sport that seeks ratings. That is the new kayfabe.

If you use those rules, then when something crazy or wild happens, the announcers sell it as it wasn't supposed to happen, you could possibly fool even the internet fans. However it will still always work for the casual fan, which is what matters.

Other ways of doing it is doing more shoot angles, but without them saying "That is a shoot" Don't say your shooting because the show is supposed to be completely real. Make people forget kayfabe exists. Then, when you actually script a angle or storyline, people won't know if its real or shoot if you sell it the same way.

If someone gets attacked backstage, don't have the camera man be already set up. Have him run to the back to get whatever footage they can get. The heel attacks the cameraman. Camera is down, you see little to nothing. They cut to a new camera. Heel is beating down face, who is bloody. Heel scrams as security rushes in. Camera stays on the scene. Commercial cuts. Back from commercial, camera is STILL on the face, who is being stretchered out by the medics. THAT IS REAL. Then have an update throughout the show on his condition.

Now... currently TNA cuts to the back, camera man on scene of a fight. Right away when it seems like its over, they cut to whatever is next on the show and it is barely mentioned or shown again. This does not always happen, but it happens enough that it gets annoying. If you are going to have a beat down or an angle, SELL IT. Milk the damn thing for all its worth. Otherwise, it seems like just another fake segment on a fake show.

 

[michaelj817]

Breaking Kayfabe is stupid. I hate when wrestlers refer to themselves as Heel or faces. Team 3D did it earlier this year.

What you need to do is change what Kayfabe is. Make Kayfabe more realistic.

There needs to be more of "That wasn't supposed to happen" not "That wasn't in the script" "By god... Samoa Joe is breaking kayfabe" or anything like that. Don't refer to the fact that the show is scripted and planned. Refer to it as a legitimate reality show/sport that seeks ratings. That is the new kayfabe.

If you use those rules, then when something crazy or wild happens, the announcers sell it as it wasn't supposed to happen, you could possibly fool even the internet fans. However it will still always work for the casual fan, which is what matters.

Other ways of doing it is doing more shoot angles, but without them saying "That is a shoot" Don't say your shooting because the show is supposed to be completely real. Make people forget kayfabe exists. Then, when you actually script a angle or storyline, people won't know if its real or shoot if you sell it the same way.

If someone gets attacked backstage, don't have the camera man be already set up. Have him run to the back to get whatever footage they can get. The heel attacks the cameraman. Camera is down, you see little to nothing. They cut to a new camera. Heel is beating down face, who is bloody. Heel scrams as security rushes in. Camera stays on the scene. Commercial cuts. Back from commercial, camera is STILL on the face, who is being stretchered out by the medics. THAT IS REAL. Then have an update throughout the show on his condition.

Now... currently TNA cuts to the back, camera man on scene of a fight. Right away when it seems like its over, they cut to whatever is next on the show and it is barely mentioned or shown again. This does not always happen, but it happens enough that it gets annoying. If you are going to have a beat down or an angle, SELL IT. Milk the damn thing for all its worth. Otherwise, it seems like just another fake segment on a fake show.

Great post! Like pro wrestling, most reality shows are to a certain extent staged. So if you are going to pretend it's real and not just another reality tv show, treat it with more of a documentary and journalistic feel. Blur the line. The backstage attack angle was a great example of what could be done with what is now a commonplace segment. If there is a fight breaking out backstage on a regular tv show or even on a Maury Povich or jerry Springer type show, there is not a cameraman set up waiting to catch what happens. If something like this goes down on Maury, you see/feel the cameraman running with a bouncy visual until he gets there. Also, the footage is shot differently than backstage wrestling segments are. Give it that touch of grainy documentary reality, instead of setting up wide shot, or a 2 or 3 shot.

The Vince stage collapse tried to blur the line but failed in this way. Why in the hell would a cameraman be standing at the stage and shooting underneath to view what could be the possibly dead body of Vince McMahon?He wouldn't; the director would have cut to a crowd shot, or the broadcast would have suddenly been cut off. Yea the heel and face wrestlers pretending to break Kayfabe and Vince calling "Paul...I can't feel my legs" were nice touches. However, the camera work made it feel less than real and destroyed any suspension of disbelief I had.

Instead of intentionally trying to go against traditional rasslin storytelling, put yourself(as a promoter) in the position of a real tv news show or a documentary film maker if something goes wrong. Yes, what happens is scripted and you know the outcome. However, at least make an attempt to act and present it as if it is really real and not "wrestling real."

Edit: reallly real in the sense that it is realistic from both a storytelling and viewer perspective within the context of what you are watching. Not so much the matches, as I am by no means in favor of adding fake ufc style shoot fights to the show. If I want to see that, I will watch UFC. However, as I stated above with the stage "accident". What would those people as characters within the show do if that really happened, and how would it have been treated from a production standpoint? As performers and storytellers you are already pretending that the "work" is real, so why not react in a real world realistic way to the events on the program?

Another example within the context of film; Star Wars Death Star Trench run. You know the Death Star let alone the whole movie are fake. However, the actors in the films didn't play their characters all cheap because it was just a movie. Just like wrestling it was scripted, but the characters/actors reacted and acted in a way that sucked you in as a viewer to believe that they believed in what their characters were doing. If the wrestlers playing their characters don't feel sincere and realistic in regard to the way their characters react and how they would react in a real world setting, it will come through to the fans that way.

 

[Golden Standard]

Yeah i agree they should do pro wrestling like a reality tv show. Make shit actually look real and try not to make it look like its fake. I totally agree with everything everybody said on here. Cause everything has pretty much been done by wwe and other wrestling companies now its time for new stuff. Now as you know each decade in wrestling, they potrayed that style. Here are examples.

You know the 80s had that style and funk! So did pro wrestling.
90s had that kickass/attitude/edgier stuff so did pro wrestling.
This decade 2000s has that entertainment/reality tv stuff.

Each decade had their own thing and style and pro wrestling potrayed that in their stuff and thats why they were good. I think pro wrestling should potray whats going on in this time to their product. Cause just like back then when they did it, its something new and fresh that has never been done before. They might wanna have some special effects to their shit too cause thats also something new in this time.

 

[Marty2Hotty]

Here's my scenario.. Most will disagree because it's stemming from WCW 2000 and or Russo Powers That Be era..

But people can talk about gimmicks to the writers.. Now, here's what I mean about larry sanders.

I was talking to a friend about this. There will be backstage stuff on the show that TOTALLY breaks kayfabe, and I mean faces talking to heels and writers - Gilbertti may say this is a stupid idea, but i'm talking about totally exposing the business in the backstage segments..

And when we cut LIVE, it'll be differently filmed and commentators will ONLY acknowledge the stuff on the live section.

Say Jeff Jarrrett is discussing the outcome of the match with Sting AND writer Vince Russo. Backstage segment sits all three together. Russo works with them throughout the finish and says Angle will make a run-in, etc... basically working them through the match and Jarrett/Sting ask questions. Russo says Sting will go over Jeff, etc.

CUT LIVE

Jeff/Sting do everything that's said but Jeff for whatever reason is unhappy and screws over Sting live... and takes the title.

(I know Russo tried to do somethign simlar)

CUt back:

Russo is livid saying why did they do that. Jeff is pissed..

I---

I dunno.. I think there needs to be something to this extent on the show. The interaction backstage needs to be totally real- documentary-like - like the Hitman Hart Wrestling With Shadows documentary where Hart is talking to Michaels backstage after getting screwed by McMahon.. make all of this scripted but LOOK real...

That's the creative part of things and I think TV critics (not wrestling critics) will really praise this stuff if Russo /Gilbertti are able to make it work.

Like Beyond The Mat.. use the documentary-style stuff and talk about topics that they would talk about.

DISCUSS

 

[Talon_DR]

Here's my scenario.. Most will disagree because it's stemming from WCW 2000 and or Russo Powers That Be era..

But people can talk about gimmicks to the writers.. Now, here's what I mean about larry sanders.

I was talking to a friend about this. There will be backstage stuff on the show that TOTALLY breaks kayfabe, and I mean faces talking to heels and writers - Gilbertti may say this is a stupid idea, but i'm talking about totally exposing the business in the backstage segments..

And when we cut LIVE, it'll be differently filmed and commentators will ONLY acknowledge the stuff on the live section.

Say Jeff Jarrrett is discussing the outcome of the match with Sting AND writer Vince Russo. Backstage segment sits all three together. Russo works with them throughout the finish and says Angle will make a run-in, etc... basically working them through the match and Jarrett/Sting ask questions. Russo says Sting will go over Jeff, etc.

CUT LIVE

Jeff/Sting do everything that's said but Jeff for whatever reason is unhappy and screws over Sting live... and takes the title.

(I know Russo tried to do somethign simlar)

CUt back:

Russo is livid saying why did they do that. Jeff is pissed..

I---

I dunno.. I think there needs to be something to this extent on the show. The interaction backstage needs to be totally real- documentary-like - like the Hitman Hart Wrestling With Shadows documentary where Hart is talking to Michaels backstage after getting screwed by McMahon.. make all of this scripted but LOOK real...

That's the creative part of things and I think TV critics (not wrestling critics) will really praise this stuff if Russo /Gilbertti are able to make it work.

Like Beyond The Mat.. use the documentary-style stuff and talk about topics that they would talk about.

DISCUSS

I understand where your coming from but disagree fully.

Sports Entertainment allows fans to experience a larger than life atmosphere which is Beyond Belief. Wrestling fans know wrestling isn't real but they don't want to be told that.

I do think TNA needs to move in a more Reality TV Style company. To me the most controversial and intriguing things that have happened in the past year involving TNA (TNA has many) were the Samoa Joe "shoot" at Turning Point and before that, the War with the WWE: VKM vs VKM. When things touch on reality, things become more interesting.

The big difference in the wrestling world of today is Attitude vs Reality. In 1998 what was popular was the rebel spirit, the sex, the profanity and the hardcore element of wrestling, which was done too much. Was is in trend right now is the personality of a certain character. Behind the Scenes stuff, like what TNA is doing with their Rough Cut Segments and their Global iMPACT special from earlier in the year.

What is trendy is what is believable. Since TNA is focused around adults rather than kids they need to have characters that might actually appear in the real world. Black Reign the Schizophrenic could appear. Black Reign, the Monster,insults the fans intelligence.

What I propose TNA to do is create content or programming featuring more behind the scenes, inside scoops style TV. Like Spin Cycle talks about characters views on different things. Have on that is like MTV Cribs showing fans how the wrestlers live or shoot style interviews and such.

Also TNA needs to create Insider Headlines and react on it. For example, a story leaks out that Samoa Joe's Contract is ending in TNA and he "doesn't know" if he will re-sign with TNA. What TNA could do is play Samoa Joe's character off of this leaked information, like the kinda did and make the fans believe there is a chance he would be leaving or not.

 

[Marty2Hotty]

Talon. WCW 2000 did play on that type of angle..

I do kind of want the backstage segments to feature more 'behind-the-scenes' lingo and take the viewing audience to an environment that's not typically seen in the WWE.

People complaining about not getting over, people getting heat and having to do "the job", wrestlers upset that the old guys are taking the spots (ie millionaire's club vs new blood), the typical backstage politics we read online all the time - have that stuff play out WELL on television!

I agree with the stuff you said Talon, and Russo started doing some of that in WCW>. I want to see much more of that because WWE is doing the same predictable bullshit we'd come to expect from them. TNA can enhance the reality aspect and make the show more challenging to the viewer for sure!

 

[FromTheSouth]

Marty, that would work one time. It would be sick if done right, but only once. After that, every time that they cut to a segment like that the fans would know something was up, or at least would have their ears perked up so the surprise wouldn't have so much impact.

I come on here for backstage lingo and rumors of people whining. While I'm watching the show, I don't participate in live chat (except last week, but the Punk title change was a surprise), I don't troll around online, and I don't try to understand. I watch to be entertained by the show and see what they have to offer. After that, I get back on here and see what people's reactions are. I think when the show is on, I personally, want to watch the show, and then worry about backstage and lingo other times.

I think you want to feel like more of an insider because you can impress your friends by explaining what they are talking about on TV. But that would ruin the show as it would no longer be a big deal when anything happened. After a title change, the last thing you want to do is cut to a bunch of writer's celebrating about how it went over. Go watch Transformers and then imagine their cutting to a bunch of CGI geeks creaming themselves over how Optimus Prime looks, and you'll understand that your idea, while well intentioned, is bad.

 

[Marty2Hotty]

Hey from thesouth, good that you agree with me partially. But i want you to keep in mind that when WCW 2000 came out, I never surfed the net for insider information. So when Kidman comes out and say Hogan said Kidman can't draw flies on a radio show, I expect that part to be real.

Wrestling is about politics, gimmicks, fan reaction, making money, upset about doing the job, etc... they may not have to go "too" inside.. but if they can do a good job of replicating how it is like backstage in real life and not being afraid to use the lingo, breaking kayfabe, i think the TV viewers will see something they have NEVER seen in wrestling before.. and I think that will differentiate TNA from WWE easily.. and it may even get TV critics raving about TNA

Russo actually wanted to pitch an idea to network studios when wrestling was hot entitled "Rope Opera" - meaning the stuff we see backstage. I think a lot of it CAN be done in TNA if TNA is ballsy enough to try this...

I think Russo had a good idea in WCW when he attempted it, but I think a Gilbertti can really help Russo make the formula work. Two great minds are better than one... and Gilbertti is obviously outspoken about the online critics/fans who are afraid of change and wanting wrestling a certain way.

If they can revolutionize this aspect of the business, I think it'll be really cool. A lot of the interaction can also be very entertaining/humourous

 

[FromTheSouth]

Right, but I did say it could work, ONCE. But too much of it would turn into situation where people would be wondering if kayfabe was on or off. If you don't know, you miss story points.

Look, if you can name one giant angle, like a new invasion being led my CM Punk and work the shoot jsut right I am in, but as a regular method of story telling it won't work. To effectively tell a story, the reader/viewer needs to be drawn in.

Your looking to do something Da Vinci Code like where there are elements of reality, elements of theory, and elements of pure fiction. Effective story telling draws on all three components, while never forgetting that a story needs to be told. Dan Brown could have delved deeper into Templar history, but he left it at a level appropriate to the story so as not to overwhelm his fiction readers with too much reality, while giving them enough to get them talking what if.....

 

[finoj05]

I stand by my point that breaking Kayfabe is bad for the business. I don't beleive the audience wants to see that. It exposes the business and reminds everyone its scripted. People know if its on TV, its a work. If you start to try to get people to get confused on whats a work and whats a shoot, then people will just get pissed and shut it off. That's what i did with WCW in 1999/2000 and i was a DIEHARD WCW fan. I took alot of shit from them but that was something i couldn't stand. That was before i ever set foot an Internet Wrestling News site. It works against the industry and confuses the fan base.

The reason Samoa Joe's promo worked at Turning Point (as much as i hated to see him shoot on Nash) is because it didn't break kayfabe. He didn't mention booking, writing or anything that is outside of kayfabe. Old guys sticking around happens inside of kayfabe.

This is unlike the Russo/2000 Hogan shoot which pretty much tainted the Hulk Hogan legacy and pretty much spit in the faces of the families that came to see him. I don't give a shit how much crap Hogan pulled backstage, ruining it for the kids isn't cool. Be a man and do something about it backstage instead of shooting about it in front of a live crowd that came to see these stars.

For instance, in UFC right now, people are bitching because Brock Lesnar is getting paid more than people that have been fighting for years. UFC is a real sport. This shit happens in real life. However, they don't have UFC guys go on the air and bitch, but if they did, it would work because there is no kayfabe. It is free reign. Wrestling has an illusion to sell. If it does its job, no matter how many parents say its fake, people will buy it and enjoy it.

 

[Golden Standard]

Wrestling was never real and will never be real. It just cannot it will mess up the whole entire flow of it. What TNA needs to do is keep on having good matches, and improve the stuff they need to improve and get on a better cable network so the ratings will go up. And keep directing their shit to adults thats something wwe is not doing. If tna becomes more hardcore/edgier then i think they will be fine. That is an alternate to wwe.

 

[andremt9]

Mix Kayfabe with reality and get the people confused about what is fake and what is real,this must be made.

TNA needs angles that make the people start talking about them,and get confused,like this week on RAW , "What Kane is doing? Who is Dead or Alive? I must see next week to discover what is behind this"

controversy creates money ...

 

[Marty2Hotty]

Mix Kayfabe with reality and get the people confused about what is fake and what is real,this must be made.

TNA needs angles that make the people start talking about them,and get confused,like this week on RAW , "What Kane is doing? Who is Dead or Alive? I must see next week to discover what is behind this"

controversy creates money ...

That's EXACTLY the case. When the nWo started, people were like "what the", there's hall and nash from the WWF coming to WCW. Keep in mind that the Internet wasn't prevalent back then like it is right now, so the fans watching are kinda shocked to see something like that.

I think that's what "Cross the line" was meant to be: blurring the lines between reality and fiction to the point of going: "Was that real? I know the other stuff was kinda just done for entertainment purposes, but that had to be real"

Everyone knows wrestling is fake. By real, we don't mean making the wrestlers go "I want the belt" "I'm going to win the match". Everyone knows wrestling is scripted. You shouldn't take the business so seriously as a result, You can have your crazy comedy to entertain the fans, but if you're going to do a big serious angle, blur the lines.

I think Gilbertti will have a lot to say about people online getting "confused" over a wrestling show. "People watching TV will not get it, it's too confusing". He wrote an entire article on that so I don't have to talk about it here.

But yeah, I think the backstage stuff (Larry Sanders) can be taken to the next level and I really think Russo did do that in WCW, just like he made the WWF Attitude era into that "direction" that didn't just generate extremely high ratings, but ALSO put the buyrates through the roof.

Wreslting is a soap opera; but if you do somethign people haven't seen before and do it well, you're going to attract a whole new audience.