Should the N.W.O storyline have ended at Starrcade 1997?

[Sweettre15]

Do you guys think WCW would have still been around to this day had they ended the angle on a high note and built up their younger talent?

I bring both these issues up due to the complaints about this time period in WCW:

1. Alot of the cruiserweights were allegedly punished for getting over and other angles besides the NWO wasn't allowed to get any heat thanks to the politicking backstage.


2. The N.W.O storyline dragged on way too long and also ended up running the company into the ground.

In an alternate reality, let's say they built up Jericho, Guerrero, Benoit, Mysterio, and Goldberg as guys that would put an end to the NWO at Starrcade 97 alongside Sting. All of them winning CLEAN with no screwjobs

Idealistically, these guys would have a lot of momentum coming out of this storyline and the NWO angle would have ended on a high note due to new stars being made from this angle as well as the angle not overstaying it's welcome.

Where do you see WCW going from here had those hypothetical things happened as opposed to the Starrcade 97 that we actually got?

When discussing this, imagine an alternate reality where Hogan and Nash weren't politicking and keeping everyone down.

So in essence, it's two questions in one...Should the NWO have ended at Starrcade 97 with faces being victorious and do you think WCW would still be around and have avoided alot of the issues it ran into that caused it to go downhill?.

 

[Sweettre15]

As an extension to this, How I think things should have gone after Starrcade 97 would have been to have:

- Goldberg enter the title chase and go after Sting for the WHC

- Debuted Bret Hart on Nitro a couple weeks after Starrcade and built up a feud between him and Chris Jericho

- Also built up a feud with Davey Boy and Chris Benoit and had the above feud intertwine with this one due to them all being tied by training in the Hart Family Dungeon

- A feud between Ric Flair and Eddie Guerrero...Imagine the man that "Lies, Cheats, and Steals" vs "The Dirtiest Player in The Game" as a feud dynamic

- Have Hulk Hogan and Macho Man enter part-timer mode after some time off screen

- Also since the NWO werent storyline employed by WCW, you can release Nash and Hall along with Sean Waltman in time for them to return to the WWF and let them ALL be apart of this in WWF: http://youtu.be/G1khfMehIzo

Feel Free to give your thoughts on both parts

 

[JJ15776]

This is a very complicated question.

The simple answer to the actual question itself is "it wouldn't have mattered." As it was, with the backstage environment, WCW was going to fail. It was just a matter of time. The toxicity would have caught up with them one way or another, no matter what they did with the NWO.

But...there's a much deeper question, buried later in the post. If Hogan and Nash aren't politicking, you take away that toxic environment...and anything is possible. (Of course, you could argue that their politicking is a big reason why the NWO formed and became as big as it did, but I digress.) Certainly, Starrcade 97 would have been a very good time to end it. Or, at least, end their run as a dominant force in the WCW. They could have been broken up slowly, in a way that didn't bury the rest of the roster. Or, as others have said in the past, the NWO could have been used as the vehicle to help the young guys get over. If they hadn't been stupid enough to think that viewers would stick around for half an hour while they changed the set from WCW to NWO a few weeks before Starrcade 1997, maybe NWO Monday Nitro gets better ratings, and WCW and NWO end up with their own separate TV shows. That could have worked, if done right. But that's the key. Really, there's a thousand things they could have done that would have been better than what happened with that toxic atmosphere. And it's really impossible to say what would have happened because that toxic atmosphere was so vital to the company.

Ultimately, the people there had no idea what they were doing from the top down, and without a complete overhaul of management and attitude in the locker room, I think the fate would have been the same at the end of the day. Anything else is just delaying the inevitable.

 

[thebarber]

Hmm open to many many possibilities. nWo was dealt their first real blow at Starcade 1997, and WCW ballsed that up with Hogan actually looking like the guy who got screwed. Bret Hart came along at that time, WCW should really have gone with a Hogan vs Hart feud which could have culminated mid 1998. Thinking about this, it is only really fantasty to even suggest what may or may not have happened if the nWo was disbanded at the end of 1997. Nash and Hall, what happens with them? Does the Scortt Steiner heel turn and subsequent golden run happen? Does Goldberg become the character he became??? Alot of this transpired in 1998l so events would have changed depending on the nWo

 

[shooter_mcgavin]

I remember listening to a panel in how they feel what should have happened during and after Starcade. I didn't really follow WCW at the time but I recall the general consensus was the following

- Sting goes over Hogan clean. Which triggers the beginning of the fall of the NWO so NWO will stay a little longer but will soon disband

- Bret Hart and Hulk Hogan feud will take place. Sting feuds with NWO for awhile but eventually transitions a feud with Raven.

- NWO ends at Bash at the Beach with a 6-Man Tag Team Match. Involving Bret Hart, Sting, ??? vs. Hogan, Nash, Hall. The stipulation is that if NWO loses the group must disband.

- Goldberg continues his dominance culminating to a WHC Match at Starcade most likley against Sting.

From what I recall the most common proposals from that panel was that
- Bret Hart/Hogan feud will take place after Hogan's program with Sting
- Raven gets a big push in 1998.

 

[BretHitmanHart92]

I don't think it should have ended right after. But it should have been changed up a lot.

After Starrcade I would have had Hall and Nash finally get fed up with Hogan and Bischoff and attack Hogan and put him on the shelf for a long time. Hall and Nash would have trimmed down the nWo to about 4 or 5 people (Hall, Nash, Syxx, Konnan and Big Poppa Pump). I still would have called them The Wolfpac too.

Sting would have had a pretty nice title run. I would have had him face Hall still (Hall had his world title shot from winning WWIII) at Souled Out, feud with Nash for a couple months and have matches at SuperBrawl and Uncensored.

I would have built up Bret Hart at this time and get him in the title picture at Slamboree. I would have had him be the guy to beat Sting.

Goldberg would have still had the win streak through Starrcade. I would have had him beat Bret Hart at Bash At The Beach. He would have went on to feud with Nash and DDP still (like he did).

I would have brought back Hogan in the red & yellow around Starrcade 1998 as a huge surprise to take on Goldberg and had Hogan be the one to end the streak at Starrcade '98.

Hogan would have held the title for a couple months and lost it to Goldberg (putting him over) at SuperBrawl '99. From there I would have started building up the new guys. Goldberg, Booker T, Chris Jericho, The Giant Rey Mysterio, Steiner. Hogan would be used in a legends role (only making special appearances and wrestling at the big PPVs like Starrcade, Halloween Havoc, Slamboree and Bash At The Beach) . The top guys would have been Goldberg, Bret Hart, DDP, Nash and Sting. But Jericho, Booker T, Steiner and The Giant would have been right up there with them.

 

[relentless1]

ok, heres how id have done it:

Starrcade 97 goes on the same except sting beats hogan clean with bret keeping the nWo on the outside

hogan starts up a feud with bret which goes on for several months

at the same time hall gets his shot at sting at souled out, savage gets the next shot at super brawl, nash gets the shot at uncensored. hogan interferes in all, the first two he "accidentally" causes hall and savage to lose then by the time nash gets the shot hogan blatantly causes nash a loss as the nWo split will be well under way at that point.

bret hart ends the feud with hogan at uncensored in a cage where he wins after a interference heavy loss to hogan at super brawl.

scott stiener will still turn heel at superbrawl in a tag title match with the outsiders.

sting will keep the world title through all of the nWo interference in the hogan match at spring stampede, next night on nitro nWo splits: nash forms the wolfpac with hall, konnan and buff bagwell.

bret hart will face sting for the world title at slamboree and win with interference from hogan because hogan says he isnt done with bret and wants to beat jim for the world belt because hes "done" with sting.

buff gets injured as in real life so he becomes an accesory member in the wolfpac, booker t joins up to even the odds for the 'pac some time in june.

great american bash sees hogan fight bret for the belt after numerous attacks on the new hart family consisting of chris benoit and chris jericho, causing bret to want to fight hogan one more time, hogan wins the belt with suprise help from macho man. nWo hollywood members are : hogan, bischoff, macho man, disciple, giant, curt henning, rick rude, brian adams, scott norton and scott steiner. bret hart exhibits a mean streak and puts Macho Man on the shelf tip the next year the nitro after GAB.

goldberg has been US champ since april as in real life but his title shot is announced the night after the great american bash where hogan successfully defended his belt against DDP; the shot will happen at bash at the beach, which goldberg obviously wins, becoming the new world champ.

in the mean time, big poppa pump has been running through the competition at nitros and ppvs; he has personally taken up the leadership role in the fight between the nWos as hollywood has been occupied with bret, at uncensored he beats DDP, spring stampede he beats lex luger, slamboree he beats konnan, great american bash he beats booker t and bash at the beach he beats scott hall. at road wild he wins the finals for the US title against booker t.

hart has started a respect feud with sting that sees sting get the win at great american bash, the two become allies against raven and his flock after raven leaves them both laying on nitro, they fight raven and saturn at bash at the beach in a losing effort and benoit and jericho were not enough to keep the rest of the flock from interfering.

at road wild, hogan fight nash to "settle the score" as nash and the wolfpac held off hogans cronies during the title match with goldberg. hogan wins the match duw to outside interference from scott steiner and the giant.

the nWo war which has been going on since april finally comes to a head in september in the war games match, loser disbands, the wolfpac team is: Nash, Hall, Konnan, Booker T vs the nWo team of Hogan, Steiner, Giant and Curt Henning, winner will also get the next shot at goldberg at Halloween Havoc, nash wins by pinning scott steiner, disbanding the nWo. hart faces luger since he was brainwashed to joining the flock, hart wins the match, sting faces raven in a losing effort and goldberg also has a match for the world title against DDP, successfully defending the belt.

on nitro the next night hogan tries to berate big poppa pump for losing the match only for scott to snap and beat hogan into injury for the rest of the year.

scott recriuts the giant as back u and continues to rampage all over WCW, even without the nWo he is a very dangerous force and still the US champion.

halloween havoc sees goldberg defend the world title successfully against nash, scott steiner lose the US title to booker t, sting finally beat raven in a cage match but the flock beats him to injury afterwards, benoit and jericho beat hall and konnan for the tag belts (freebird rule) and bret hart takes on the giant after he cost him in a title match against goldberg on a nitro previously.

world war 3 sees scott steiner win the battle royal, booker t loses the us title to raven, benoit and jericho defend the tag belts successfully against eddie gurrerro and rey mysterio, bret hart fights raven in defense of his friend sting, only for sting to come out brainwashed by raven at the end of the match and attack bret.

starrcade comes along and sees DDP beat the giant, bret hart beat sting, breaking ravens hold over him as well. benoit, jericho and raven face for the us title with jericho coming out on top; benoit congratulates him but says he wants the first shot; jericho obliges, hall and nash beat lex luger and saturn to retain the tag belts and big poppa pump beats goldberg by tko to win the world heavyweight title thanks to interference from hall and nash, reforming the nWo whos members would be Steiner, Nash, Hall, Booker T, Giant and Buff Bagwell with more members in the new year ready to face Goldberg gauntlet style as he starts his quest back to the World Heavyweight Championship.....

 

[obamartins]

This topic annoys me.

1998 was WCW's most successful & profitable year in large due to the nWo.

1998's PPV buyrate average increased by 20% from 1997 (0.8 to 1.0). WCW Bash at the Beach 1998's 1.5 PPV buyrate was the 2nd best PPV buyrate in WCW history. Starrcade 1998 & SuperBrawl 1999 both drew 1.15 PPV buyrates & are joint 3rd highest PPV buyrates in WCW history.

1998's WCW Monday Nitro TV ratings average increased by 0.73 from 1997 (3.70 to 4.43). August 1998's 4.98 average was the best ratings month in Nitro history. January 1999's 4.85 was the 2nd best ratings month in Nitro history.

How can you claim the nWo angle dragged on to long when the numbers (facts) clearly state otherwise.

WCW had no contingency plan outside of the nWo angle so why end it when it was still drawing? nWo civil war was a great idea which ultimately didn't have a great payoff but still a great idea nonetheless. Remember how over the nWo Wolfpac was in 1998? it defiantly got even more mileage out of the angle.

WCW Monday Nitro's average monthly rating:

Aug 97 - 4.30
Sep 97 - 4.14
Oct 97 - 4.15
Nov 97 - 4.07
Dec 97 - 4.06
Jan 98 - 4.52
Feb 98 - 4.80
Mar 98 - 4.66
Apr 98 - 4.63
May 98 - 4.00
Jun 98 - 3.98
Jul 98 - 4.67
Aug 98 - 4.98
Sep 98 - 4.62
Oct 98 - 4.65
Nov 98 - 4.24
Dec 98 - 4.25
Jan 99 - 4.85
Feb 99 - 4.68
Mar 99 - 4.05
Apr 99 - 4.17
May 99 - 3.40

nWo angle was still drawing in early 1999. Only when the nWo angle was quietly dropped in May 1999 due to injuries to Luger, Hall, Hogan, Steiner did ratings noticeably decline.

Cruiserweights were nothing but filler. Stop overrating them. Yeah WCW should have pushed younger talent earlier but not the usual suspects stereotypical smarks like to claim like Jericho, Guerrero & Benoit.

Scott Steiner, Booker T & Raven should have been pushed harder sooner.

 

[Wald]

Not at Starrcade 1997 but that PPV should have set the wheels in motion for the end of the nWo alright.

As with all What Ifs you have to look past the fact that Sting basically didn't bother getting in shape for the biggest match of his career. Doesn't excuse Hogan destroying his build up with the non-fast count but still.

Anyway back to the topic at hand, Sting defeats Hogan clean at Starrcade 1997 for the WCW Title. I would then decide to end the nWo officially at Bash at the Beach 1998, perfect PPV to end on it due to the significance in the history of the faction. Two years is a great run for an angle like this too. But to get there you have to get through 10 PPV events first, which is no easy task but it's a What If thread so lets give this a try.

Souled Out 1998: Sting vs Hollywood Hogan for the WCW Title

Have Sting defeat Hogan cleanly again but have a beatdown at the end leading to Bret Hart coming out to save the day.

Boston Brawl 1998: Sting & Bret Hart vs The Outsiders

Placeholder match to help transition into a Sting vs Bret feud after Sting vs Hogan is done

Superbrawl 1998: Sting vs Hogan for the WCW Title

Have this as the blow off match for their feud with Nash hitting Hogan by accident with a baseball bat and allowing Sting to win. Start planting the seeds of Nash vs Hogan from this point. Savage still leaves the nWo around this point.

Spring Stampede 1998: Sting vs Nash for the WCW Title

Reverse the positions of Nash & Hogan for this match and have Hogan cost Nash the match but make it more obvious it was on purpose. This ends the nWo vs Sting feud.

Profiles in Pain 1998: Nash vs The Giant

Keep the main event as what it was but play up that the nWo members loyal to Hogan want Nash out in the same way they did in reality. Don't form an nWo Wolfpac yet however. The Giant wins after someone like Scott Norton costs Nash the match. Have Nash powerbomb him and any other nWo jobber you want to throw in to him to further plant the idea of why the nWo want him out.

Slamboree: The Giant & Savage vs the Outsiders for the tag titles

Same match as in real life with Savage subbed for Sting. Have the main storyline coming in to this whether or not Hall will stay with the nWo if Nash gets kicked out/quits. Have The Giant & Savage win the belts and have Hall join in on an nWo attack after the match to prompt The Giant & Savage to come back and save Nash.

Great American Bash: Nash, The Giant & Savage vs Scott Hall, Hogan & Buff Bagwell

Have Bagwell in the match purely to take the powerbomb off Nash at the end to allow the faces to defeat the nWo.

LA Melee: Nash vs Hall, if Hall wins Nash has to quit WCW, if Nash wins he gets a shot at Hogan with a stipulation of his choice.

Play up that Hogan is running scared of Nash and have Nash constantly come out and destroy the nWo jobbers, try to make it as much like when the Outsiders first appeared as possible with walks through the crowd and random beatdowns.

Nash wins the match to get his shot at Hogan at Bash At the Beach and announces that the stip he wants is that if he beats Hogan than the nWo are finished.

Bash At The Beach: Nash vs Hogan, if Nash wins the nWo are gone.

Have the nWo members fight for their life in this one but bring out most of the locker room for WCW to fight them off. Leave Scott Hall at ringside so that he can jump in the ring at the end and swerve turn Hogan so we get the emotional Outsiders reunion and the end of the nWo to close out Bash At The Beach 1998. If you really want to lay it on thick have the ending be a rip off of Return of the Jedi and have Hogan, Steiner & Bagwell putting the boots to Nash as Hall watches on before deciding that it's too much and clearing Steiner & Bagwell from the ring so Nash can recover and hit Hogan with the powerbomb.

 

[Toroc102]

No it shouldn't have been the end, just the beginning of the end.

Obviously I would have Sting win the title, but afterwards I'd have Hogan take a sabbatical for like 6 months. In the meantime you'd keep the nWo strong and have their Main-Eventers(Nash, Savage, maybe Steiner and Hall dunno who else)challenge Sting for the title and have them all lose. Then Hogan would come back at the following Starrcade for the send off where the nWo is finally banished from the WcW.

And although it would've been hard to do, I would've tried to keep Goldberg streak alive as long as possible in order for him to be the one that finally beat Sting.

 

[bioshock]

This has been debated so many times over, still always a fun debate.

- Also since the NWO werent storyline employed by WCW, you can release Nash and Hall along with Sean Waltman in time for them to return to the WWF and let them ALL be apart of this in WWF

lol no. Just NO!

While no I don't think the NWO storyline should of ended then at Starrcade 97, because the NWO was still riding high and very popular, it wasn't until Starrcade 98 when it all went south after Hall dropped the belt to Hogan, but after Starrcade 97 is when the beginning of the end should of started with the NWO, with it totally disbanding somewhere in the summer or fall time, and by Starrcade 98 have it totally gone with maybe some new factions formed, or none at all.

How I would of had it played out from Starrcade 97. Have Sting win the title as he did, even though he looked horrible and out of shape (I didn;t like him after that showing), but the fans loved him and wanted to see him. So he wins the belt clean over Hogan with no bs run in from Bret Hart, then Hogan leaves WCW for a few months and the NWO go on a power struggle storyline as to who is the new leader of the NWO since Hogan is gone and who knows if hes ever coming back, kind of like the Bret storyline after WM12, and with Hogan gone the NWO members get into feuds with each other over who should lead the NWO and this leads to them breaking up with Hogan returning months later, maybe even 6 months later as a face to feud with former NWO members. Maybe by the time Fall Brawl comes around its Hogan teaming up with Sting to take on whats left of the NWO, have that be the event where the last 4 members of the NWO (Hall, Nash, Syxx & Steiner?) all fall apart. What ever.


I think with some kind of storyline like that fans would of been interested, instead of the clusterfuck we had thoughout 1998 with more wrestlers in the NWO than there was left on the "WCW" roster part.

And of course while the NWO feud with each other, they disband, Sting has his run as WCW champion, Bret Hart makes him self a player maybe while feuding with Sting over the belt while adding Goldberg into the mix, and push some of the new faces, I think WCW would of been alright. Pushing just Bret, Nash, Sting and some of the other old faces though might not of been the best way to go about building towards 1999 though.

I do think WCW was right in that people wanted to see Bret vs Benoit, Bret vs Sting, Bret vs DDP, Bret vs Hogan, Bret vs Goldberg, Goldberg vs Hogan, Goldberg vs Sting, Hogan vs Warrior II, Nash vs Goldberg, so on and so forth, so I do think WCW had the right idea in the headline matches they gave, it was just throwing those guys in and out of the NWO and even having the NWO any part of it, and trying to make who the leader was of the NWO more inportant then Hogan vs Bret was where WCW screwed up.

 

[MWRedskins]

i dont know if the nWo should've ended, but one thing i know i would've done quickly is i would've inserted Bret Hart in the main event picture. the first thing i wouldnt have done is ended the title match in the way they did. either have Hogan cheat to win (really) or have Sting beat Hogan clean and then after the match have Hart challenge the winner saying that he left the last company a champion and say how he feels that he's owed a match vs. their top champion. that would've been a much better way to debut Hart.

 

[nhl4life]

I would have had the nWo end at Starcade 98.

Goldberg would have been built slower

The Hart Foundation would have been given a bigger push - and in my "fantasy" WCW made a deal of Owen Hart for Hulk Hogan. Hogan leaves WCW after Starcade 98. This allows Davey Boy and Owen to wrestle as a tag team. Owen comes with the Harts to WCW, Hogan leaves after Starcade 98 and takes Mr. McMahon's spot as the Higher Power for the Ministry of Darkness. In this idea to, the Ministry never joins the Corporation and the Ministry is made up of Taker, Bradshaw, Farrook, Paul Bearer, Viscera, Mideon, Vader, Phycho Sid, and eventually Hogan. But that's another "fantasy" story line altogether.

Wolfpac still split from nWo but instead join WCW fully.

Main events for the year:

Starcade - Sting defeats Hogan

Sold Out - Sting and Bret Hart defeat Hogan and Savage

Superbrawl - Sting defeats Hogan again

Uncensored - Sting defeats Scott Hall

Spring Stampede - Sting defeats Savage and Hogan (triple threat due to cage match draw between Hogan and Savage at Uncensored. Giant has rejoined nWo against Nash's wishes as Giant went after Nash's family during their feud. Giant tries to interfere for Hogan and Nash takes him out. nWo is starting to break apart)

Slamboree - Sting, Bret Hart, Ric Flair defeat Hogan, Hall, and Nash (Bishoff made the match to try to rally the troops. nWo implode post match)

Great American Bash - Sting defeats Giant (post match Raven lays Sting out with a vicious chair shot followed by the even flow on the chair, yelling at Sting "What about Raven"....Hall and Nash lose tag titles to Buff Bagwell and Brian Adams after Hall turns on Nash...Bret Hart defeats Hogan

Bash at the Beach - Raven defeats Sting

Road Wild - Raven defeats Sting again

Fall Brawl War Games - Sting wins the belt back in the cage, War Games is between Wolfpac/WCW (Wolfpac showed allegiance when they helped out the Horseman and Flair and Nash shook. Teams are Hogan, Giant, Scott Steiner, and Hall vs. Nash, Luger, Savage, and Flair)

Halloween Havoc - Sting defeats Scott Steiner

World War 3 - Sting defeats Ric Flair , Bret Hart wins World War 3, Hogan and Nash eliminate each other brawling to the back

Starcade - Bret Hart defeats Sting in an Iron Man Match, Nash beats Hogan in a loser leaves town match, Flair defeats Bishoff making Bishoff and J J Dillion co-presidents of WCW, Benoit wins the US Title from Scott Hall, Owen Hart and Davey Boy win the tag titles from a reunited Harlem Heat, Rick Steiner defeats Scott Steiner, Dean Malenko wins the TV Title from Chris Jericho, DDP defeats the Giant, Kidman defeats Eddie Guerrero, Ray Mysterio defeats The Juice, Saturn defeats Raven

 

[#tamale]

Yes. It has nothing to do with how long it lasted (a year and a half at that point) or how stale it had gotten; WCW had their hero in Sting. Sting was arguably the most popular hero in 1997. Everything pointed for the NWO to lose all their matches leading to them walking out on their leader and Sting beating Hogan (clean).

Starrcade was WCW's Wrestlemania. You don't use your #1 PPV like an In Your House. It's not to continue a storyline, it's to end a storyline. That has always been my problem with Bischoff. His focus was on one factor of the business instead of all the factors. The main example is giving away Goldberg vs Hogan for the WCW Championship for free on Nitro. Instead of making millions, he just wanted to beat WWE one night in the ratings. All this blame is thrown around to Hogan, Nash, WCW Executives, etc.. The blame falls on Bischoff and no one else. His agenda was to beat WWE, not make WCW successful, which lead to many questionable business decisions.

I'm not going to go into fantasy booking, but looking at it from a business perspective I see a massive improvement in WWE's stories and matches. Looking at what I have:

1. A main event story that has run it's course.
2. Sting, my hero who can take down the NWO and be the face of my company in 1998.
3. Talent in each areas of the card that is the envy of any wrestling company.

Sting would go up against all comers throughout 1998 as champion leading to the Hart-Sting feud in the fall of 1998. Goldberg runs roughshod and wins World War 3 getting a shot against Sting at Starrcade 1998 for the WHC. Hogan comes back as a face in the fall of 1998 and goes up against his former allies Hall and Nash in a handicap match at Starrcade 1998.

It's easy to look back on this now and state how you can fix it, but you also realize that Bischoff had everything a promoter could ever dream of, yet somehow managed to ruin it.

 

[Sandpiper64]

Politicking is again the most important factor here. Bret Hart refused to work with Hogan with he came in to WCW, so they put them together.

I agree with what Obamartins 100% except I think Jericho was the only wrestler that was really over in '98. It really was Booker T and Raven's turn to get their shot but the other issue is......the locker room was too top heavy with main event talent. If Savage couldn't even get a crack at the top spot during '98, what makes anyone think that ANYONE had a chance to main event other than the best politicians in the wrestling...Hogan and Nash.

locker room in '98:
hogan, nash, ddp, sting, goldberg, savage, hart.

That's 7 right there excluding Luger, Steiner and Hall because of injuries. Who the hell had a chance to break through the ceiling. NO ONE. Goldberg's reactions got him that spot. No one else could have gotten that reaction back then besides Sting.

This whole...."They should have pushed younger talent" thing needs to be put to rest. While I agree with the idea that they should have, they couldn't have with all the contracts and egos. Bischoff let the inmates run the asylum.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

It didn't have to end cold turkey at Starrcade '97 but it should have started wrapping up at the very least. Sting should have kicked the crap out of Hogan, won the title decisively and from there you start wrapping up everything and start a feud between Hogan vs. Hall/Nash (not nWo Black and White vs. nWo Wolfpac) and I think Sting should have started feuding with Bret Hart in a champ vs. champ feud.

The thing about Starrcade '97 is they built the event as WCW's revenge in a sense, this is where they take command but it just never happened. Giant never decisively beat Nash, Sting beat Hogan but it wasn't 4 months later until Hogan was back on top with the title while Sting started falling to the background of nWo Wolfpac and it was just the same ol' shit after that.

I'm not gonna get into why this happened but it did and as a result it started damaging WCW even if the effects weren't immediate. Starrcade wasn't the end of '97 but it was the beginning of the end when it should have been the opposite.

 

[FlairFan2003]

The angle didn't need to end, but the dynamic needed to change...Starrcade 97 should have been where WCW took back some of the control, allow the NWO to chase the power again. One poster here said they should have moved Hogan & Savage to part time status, those two guys were mega stars, it would have been foolish to just de emphasize them. Another poster pointed out that WCW ratings stayed strong through early 99, that is true, in fact the numbers upticked considerably in JAN-FEB 99 vs the end of 98. This was when WCW FINALLY took back some of the power, with Flair reinstated and having control of WCW, stripping Bischoff of his authority, although thanks to Kevin Nash the NWO and Hollywood Hogan still had the World Title. This was a pretty tough time for the WCW roster which relied heavily on Goldberg, Flair, Hogan, and Nash here with Brett Hart, Lex Luger, Sting, and Savage all out with injuries and not wrestling, yet the numbers were still strong because they finally (albeit briefly) turned the tables on the NWO power dominance.

That sort of power switch should have happened post Starrcade 97, Sting gets his defining win over Hogan clean, no screw job like they did, retains at SuperBrawl, but the NWO still is a force with Bischoff as WCW President. You could have had WCW guys like Luger, DDP, Flair, etc trying to get in the title picture vs Sting while still trying to keep the NWO out, all while building up Goldberg. Eventually by the summer of 98 the NWO (presumably Hogan) would get the title back, but by then Goldberg would have become a mega threat, an epic money match.

Starrcade 98 would have been the best time to finally let Goldberg and Hogan face off, with Goldberg winning, stretching his Streak in the process, and building a 99 where factions within the NWO would start feuding with each other over how and who should stop Goldberg (maybe Nash or Hogan turns face here for instance) plus you'd have potential huge money matches in Goldberg vs Sting, Flair, DDP, etc. The NWO still would have been the dominant heel group, like The Horsemen or Evolution, but they didn't have to control everything all the time. A little give and take would have made it much more interesting.

Hindsight is 20/20 and backstage politics with Hogan and Nash basically in control would have hindered this. New stars should have been given pushes and feuds other than random WCW guy vs random NWO guy should have been allowed to flourish. There were stories online back in early 98 that Hogan was upset the Jan Souled Out PPV which usually did poorly in the same month as WWE Royal Rumble did almost as well as Feb SuperBrawl PPV which he headlined vs Sting in a month with no real PPV competition from WWE. Souled Out had very little NWO presence and no Hogan, Sting, or DDP, but relied heavily on the non NWO involved Brett Hart vs Ric Flair match. Notice any feud between them was shelved almost immediately afterwards. Fact is, WCW needed a strong presence like Vince McMahon to step in and move certain stories and characters in directions the audience wanted even if certain performers were unhappy. Vince certainly catered to his stars but this is the same guy who let Steve Austin walk out and allegedly told HBK he'd never work again if he refused to job at WrestleMania in 98, gutsy moves Bischoff never was strong enough to make.

 

[CrucifiedRaven]

I feel like I've commented on this topic many times. Like someone above me said, it didn't need to end... but it should have started the beginning of the end. Or at least a transition. The power definitely should have switched back to WCW, with the nWo chasing the belt, but imploding from within.

If I'm fantasy booking WCW in 1998, I build the company around 4 major storylines:

1. The implosion of the n.W.o. - the power struggle between Nash and Hogan over who should be the leader and the eventual split of the group into two different factions... and then finally the end.
2. Sting takes the power back - give Sting a good long run with the belt, probably 4-6 months, going over the top members of the n.W.o. as they fail to take it back.
3. Bret Hart is the 'real' World Champion - The screwjob had JUST happened, and Bret was pissed at Vince. Bret said he'd never show up on WCW television with the WWF title, but after the screwjob, I'm sure he'd be fine running an angle where he held a fake world championship that looked a little similar to the WWF title, saying he's still the world champion, he never submitted.
4. Build up Goldberg and the streak - this should happen as organically as it did for real. Build up the streak in the first half of the year, with him winning the United States title, and then have him dominate the second half of the year as the world champion

This is just some quick fantasy booking I whipped together. Obviously with the benefit of hindsight and not having to deal with any of the backstage politic bullshit that probably stopped a lot of this good stuff from happening:

Souled Out
Sting 'C' def Kevin Nash w/ Hogan

• Teasing that Hogan wants to be the only one in the nWo with the belt, he "accidentally" costs Nash the title

Bret Hart def Ric Flair via DQ

• Ric Flair takes exception to Bret calling himself the real world champion, Bret defends his "fake" championship against Flair

Super Brawl 8
Sting 'C' def Hogan w/ Nash

• Similar finish where Nash "accidentally" costs Hogan the title, payback for the month before

Bret Hart def Ric Flair

• Can add in some type of gimmick to this match like an I Quit match, and it would probably be gold

Uncensored
Nash & Savage def Hogan & Scott Steiner

• This is where the n.W.o. lines are divided. And the battle over leadership begins. I can't remember who else was on Hogan's side at the time, so it doesn't need to be Steiner. Insert Giant or whoever else.

Sting 'C' def Scott Hall

• Basic title defense for Sting

Bret Hart def Curt Hennig

• Continuation of Bret claiming he's the real world champion and will beat anyone in the WCW to prove it

Spring Stampede
Kevin Nash def Hogan

• This is the first showdown over who the leader of the n.W.o. should be. Nash will win but there will be some type of controversy or interference to cause a rematch

Sting 'C' def Randy Savage

• Another big title defense for Sting. Afterwards have Bret Hart come out and challenge Sting, setting up a match to decide who the real world champion really is

Slamboree
Bret Hart 'C' def Sting 'C'

• This should be indirectly booked as the WCW champion vs the WWF champion - over who the real world champion is. I'd have Bret win to continue the momentum and buzz he had around him at the time, post screwjob

Cage match: Hogan def Kevin Nash

• This should be the first blowoff of the n.W.o. feud where Hogan and Nash collide over who the leader is. Hogan will win for now (potential controversy again), but this will only lead to Nash officially starting his own n.W.o. Wolfpac with Savage, Luger, Konnan and others to get back at Hogan.

The Great American Bash
Bret Hart 'C' def Hogan

• This should be booked as a "dream" match... one that should have happened in 1993, but is happening now instead. This is where things fall apart, because neither would do the job for the other, even though Bret should win.

Sting def The Giant

• Giant turns heel, Sting beats him to get some heat back after losing the title

I'd also have some match where Nash & Savage win the tag titles, maybe Luger wins the US title, giving the new nWo Wolfpac some credibility.

Bash At The Beach
Randy Savage def Bret Hart 'C'

• Billed as another dream match that never happened. Also adds even more main event credibility to the Wolfpac. I'm really building towards Hogan vs Goldberg in the big payoff match... and having Bret drop the title to Savage in a dream match... in order for Savage to drop it to Hogan. A little hot potato.

Hogan & Rodman def DDP & Malone

• This can happen as it did. Some celebrity involvement to try and keep mainstream interest.

Road Wild
Goldberg def Hogan 'C'

• So Hogan would beat Savage on Nitro after a short reign to take the title back. It would also set up the war between the two nWo factions at War Games next month. Goldberg beats Hogan here the same way he did.

Bret Hart def Sting

• Make this a #1 contenders match, with both guys wanting to get back into the title picture

Fall Brawl
n.W.o. Wolfpac (Nash, Luger, Savage, Konnan) def n.W.o. Hollywood (Hogan, Steiner, Giant, Hall) in a War Games match

• This is the final payoff of the nWo feud... winner gets the rights to use the name. Since there was no way they were going to stop selling nWo shirts during this time, make them all red... and have the nWo continue on as a cool babyface faction. Hogan takes time off after this

Goldberg 'C' def Bret Hart

• Sting interferes to cost Bret the title, setting up the finale to their feud at Halloween Havoc.

Halloween Havoc
Goldberg 'C' def Diamond Dallas Page

• Same as usual

Sting def Bret Hart

• Again, make this an I Quit match or something... or some other type of hardcore stipulation. But since this is the payoff, have Sting finally go over

Kevin Nash def Scott Hall

• Outsiders collide... basically the only remnants of the original nWo

World War 3
Kevin Nash wins World War 3

• Let this happen the same way it does, except include a few more guys like Bret Hart and DDP and others to make the outcome at least appear a little less obvious

Goldberg 'C' def Sting

• You can have Goldberg not wrestle on this show if you want... in order to preserve him, and put Sting in another match. But he would have been a legit threat to the streak and this would have sold very well as face vs face I bet

Starrcade
Kevin Nash def Goldberg 'C'

• I think Nash was fine to beat the streak. He was over and the Wolfpac was hot. I just wouldn't do the nWo elite angle the next week. I'd make it a clean finish and I'd build Goldberg back up to take the title back later in 1999.

Ric Flair def Eric Bischoff

• Similar feud to what really happened, but Flair should have destroyed him. It should have been a huge squash similar to Bret vs McMahon at WM

Bret Hart vs Diamond Dallas Page

• Doesn't matter who wins... just a good solid upper midcard match. I'd probably put DDP over and put him into the title scene in 1999

 

[SCrooked1]

WCW's problems in 1998-2000 had very little to do with the nWo, it had more to do with bad booking and overexposure with the extra hour of Nitro, Thunder, and Saturday Night.

WCW's had their best year financially in '98, so while the nWo storyline started not to make any sense that year the ratings weren't reflecting it. WCW business acted started hitting lows when the nWo got phased out in mid '99.

 

[CrucifiedRaven]

This topic annoys me.

1998 was WCW's most successful & profitable year in large due to the nWo.

1998's PPV buyrate average increased by 20% from 1997 (0.8 to 1.0). WCW Bash at the Beach 1998's 1.5 PPV buyrate was the 2nd best PPV buyrate in WCW history. Starrcade 1998 & SuperBrawl 1999 both drew 1.15 PPV buyrates & are joint 3rd highest PPV buyrates in WCW history.

1998's WCW Monday Nitro TV ratings average increased by 0.73 from 1997 (3.70 to 4.43). August 1998's 4.98 average was the best ratings month in Nitro history. January 1999's 4.85 was the 2nd best ratings month in Nitro history.

How can you claim the nWo angle dragged on to long when the numbers (facts) clearly state otherwise.

WCW had no contingency plan outside of the nWo angle so why end it when it was still drawing? nWo civil war was a great idea which ultimately didn't have a great payoff but still a great idea nonetheless. Remember how over the nWo Wolfpac was in 1998? it defiantly got even more mileage out of the angle.

WCW Monday Nitro's average monthly rating:

Aug 97 - 4.30
Sep 97 - 4.14
Oct 97 - 4.15
Nov 97 - 4.07
Dec 97 - 4.06
Jan 98 - 4.52
Feb 98 - 4.80
Mar 98 - 4.66
Apr 98 - 4.63
May 98 - 4.00
Jun 98 - 3.98
Jul 98 - 4.67
Aug 98 - 4.98
Sep 98 - 4.62
Oct 98 - 4.65
Nov 98 - 4.24
Dec 98 - 4.25
Jan 99 - 4.85
Feb 99 - 4.68
Mar 99 - 4.05
Apr 99 - 4.17
May 99 - 3.40

nWo angle was still drawing in early 1999. Only when the nWo angle was quietly dropped in May 1999 due to injuries to Luger, Hall, Hogan, Steiner did ratings noticeably decline.

Cruiserweights were nothing but filler. Stop overrating them. Yeah WCW should have pushed younger talent earlier but not the usual suspects stereotypical smarks like to claim like Jericho, Guerrero & Benoit.

Scott Steiner, Booker T & Raven should have been pushed harder sooner.

What's very fascinating to me about these numbers, are a few things:
1) WCW ratings started to decline pretty sharply after WrestleMania 14, when the Austin era officially started in the WWF
2) They immediately shot back up after the put the title on Goldberg in the summer of 1998
3) Nov-Dec always seem to have low average ratings (could be brought down by a couple weeks of holiday tapings), and then an immediate increase again in January

Also, as you mentioned the buyrate for SuperBrawl in 1998, which was the Sting/Hogan rematch did extremely well, also. So while fans expected Starrcade to be the end of the feud, it seems like Bischoff and WCW bookers saw SuperBrawl as the end of the feud.

So in any event, Starrcade 97 or SuperBrawl 98 shouldn't have been the end of the nWo. But it should have been the beginning of the end. And in a way it was. It lead to the nWo split and the formation of the Wolfpac. But by the Fall of 1998, the nWo in its original formation... which was a heel black and white faction lead by Hogan, should have been dead. And in many ways, it was... Until the "elite" angle in January 1999. The ratings fell hard in the Spring of 1999, as you can see from March to May, and this had a lot to do with it.

WWF was riding high in 1999 after a huge year prior, and WCW was stagnating with the same storyline from 1996. I think WCW would have pulled in good ratings in 1998 regardless, just off the heels of the popularity of 1997. They could have rode that momentum through 1999 as well. For example, a tweener Wolfpac Kevin Nash as champion could have drawn well I think if given the chance, but the decisions they made in early '99, in combination with WWF's popularity caused the ratings to plummet later that year.

Nash vs Hogan.. Wolfpac vs Hollywood over the WCW title is way more interesting than Flair and the Horsemen vs Hogan and the nWo for the millionth time.

 

[justtxyank]

Most of the fantasy booker scenarios ignore the fact that the reason a lot of the things went the way they did is because of injuries and personal time off.

The poster who said Savage couldn't get a spot in the main event in 98 is crazy.
Savage was in the main event at Uncensored & Spring Stampede back to back, winning the world title from Sting.
At Slamboree and The Great American Bash he was in the second biggest match of the night.

He was being pushed as one of the company's top 3 or 4 wrestlers and then he had major knee surgery that ended his last good run of ring work. He wouldn't wrestle again for nearly a year.

 

[Matty~!]

I think the major problem with WCW in 1998 was there were so many wrestlers that were considered main eventers, that any booker would have had trouble fitting them all in. I know Raven reference it in one of his shoot interviews that he felt like the 11th man unable to break the glass ceiling to the main event.

Hogan, Nash, Hall, Sting, Savage, Goldberg, Luger, DDP, Bret Hart and The Giant all main evented PPV's throughout the year and there was really no focus as to what was happening, or the direction that they were going.

 

[klunderbunker]

No but it should have been the fatal blow.

The story that had been built up for 16 months was WCW Needs Sting. They finally got him at Starrcade 1997 and....nothing happened. Hogan lost the title and didn't really seem to mind. If you watch the Nitros that followed, Hogan was the same smiley, evil guy that he had always been and the fact that he didn't have the belt anymore didn't seem to change anything. The NWO kept rolling along and nothing changed at all.

Sting eventually lost the title to Savage in April and Hogan got it back 24 hours later, making the entire story a complete waste of time. The NWO somehow got even bigger with the civil war that broke out, leading to the Wolfpack. People stopped caring by this point because the story had gone on WAY too long.

Hogan losing the title to Sting should have started the end of the NWO. They should have splintered after that, had Hogan lose the rematch, then go away for about six months. Sting takes out the remaining guys and the NWO fades away. Instead it got even bigger, which was the worst possible outcome.

 

[Ubermensch]

I don't think so. Yes the NWO would have met a climatic end after Starcade. However, the Wolfpac angle was a large success and you wouldn't have seen that if they would have ended it at Starcade.

Bret Hart should have got a bigger push after Starcade above and beyond a US Title Belt. Hart never should have really been in the NWO, it didn't capitalize on what had happened with him and Vince and his character was too far close to his Hart Foundation one. Hart should have been face with Sting after Starcade, feuding with the NWO in the months following the match. The NWO's inability to regain the title back from Sting should have caused the Wolfpack split with Savage, Konan, Nash, DDP (who should've joined), and Hall on the Wolfpack. Your power players on the black and white side are Hogan, Steiner (who did have a good gimmic), The Giant, and Kurt Henning. Meanwhile, Sting still has the belt whilst Goldberg is on his rise. WCW was far too quick to discard Sting's pivotal role he played for 15 months, and have him take a back seat in the Wolfpack.

What most fail to realize is that the 4 Horseman reunion was also the last time WCW edged out over WWF. People wanted to see it, and the WCW let it crumble. Keep Luger out of the NWO, put Luger, Flair, Benoit, and McMichael in the 4 Horseman. Horseman go back to their dirty tactics and old money gimmic. Keep the Ultimate Warrior out of wrestling forever. Your 98 Fall Brawl Wargames match is now the Woflpack, NWO, and Horsemen with epic gang style TV feuds going on between this heel faction and two tweeners.

Starcade 98, double main event Hogan and Nash, Sting and Goldberg. After that you decide if this NWO gig has ran it's course or not (by then it probably has). You kill it shortly afterwards. You do something bigger with Bret Hart, maybe a feud with Goldberg early in 1999, and it's time to start pushing younger talent and having guys like Flair, Savage, Hogan, and Sting play a big role in this.

2000 is the year the WCW transitions these older guys out of the main event roles having them push younger bucks on the roster. Steiner and Jarrett would have still been a good pairing just outside of the NWO 2000. Ready 2 Rumble movie is better because recognize who is in it, and I think you probably deal heavy blow to Vince by then or at the very least make the Monday Night Wars last longer which was when wrestling was at its best.

The NWO had to slowly lose steam from the meteoric rise it had and the number of wrestlers on it's roster. The Wolfpack angle, Horsemen Push, and Sting at the helm would have helped them lose steam throughout the year and made the transition much easier.

 

[Rocky84]

I really don't get why people say that at the point of the creation of the Wolfpac the whole Nwo storyline was over-done. A lot of people loved the two factions of Nwo, myself included. Having the. Black and White with some top guys and a lot of enforcers (Adams, Norton, Disciple etc) was cool because they out-numbered the more talented but smaller in numbers pack of the Black and Red. Then you still have Wcw guys like Goldberg, DDP and Bret Hart. Plus you had the Horsemen with Flair, Arn, Mongo and Benoit...was Malenko there too?

Anyways that's a lot of factions which made it awesome so I disagree and would say it all went down hill with the "finger poke of doom" and Goldberg smashing his fist on the limo window. Once Nash beat Goldberg and joined Hogan again it was over, and that shouldn't have happened. That's the defining moment when it was changed ....again.

The Nwo's original creation, then adding a bunch of guys and taking on Wcw was cool. It definitely shouldn't have ended after that. The Wolfpac was cool as stated beforehand but after that it was over...how many times could you possibly change around the same guys?

All in all it definitely shouldn't have ended after Starcade 97' as it had a few more years left at a top level.