Second Round : New York - Bret Hart vs. Kenta Kobashi

Discussion in 'The Chicago Region' started by klunderbunker, May 1, 2010.

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Who Wins This Matchup?

  1. Bret Hart

  2. Kenta Kobashi

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. klunderbunker

    klunderbunker Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House

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    This is a second round matchup in the New York City Subregion. The ring and arena are universal throughout the first round and the organization is not a factor. There is a 20 minute time limit. Vote using any criteria you like. Most votes in the poll at the end of the time period wins. In the case of a tie we will go off of the number of written votes. In the case of a second tie, both are eliminated. Assume one week has passed since the first match.

    Location: Madison Square Garden, New York City.

    [​IMG]

    Bret Hart

    [​IMG]

    Vs.

    Kenta Kobashi

    [​IMG]

    Voting is open for 4 days.
     
    #1
  2. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Vote Hogan, Savage, Rocky and Thesz

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    Wow, tough match up. Kenta Kobashi is a great worker, but here in the US, at MSG, Hart takes him out. Kayfabe wise, Hart takes Kobashi out in America, but probably jobs to him in Japan.

    Real world wise, the only area Kobashi is really competitive is workrate, and even then it's not a clear victory for Kobashi. Everything else is Hart > Kobashi. Vote Hitman....even if he did sell his morals and soul this year.
     
    #2
  3. PsychoBlack

    PsychoBlack Damn it feels good to be a Taylor!!

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    love kobashi he's entertaing as hell but it goes to hitman. reason 1 Bret won the WWE title in new york what has Kobashi done outside of japan that should be enough in this match for bret to go over
     
    #3
  4. Little Jerry Lawler

    Little Jerry Lawler Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids

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    So you're saying that one title won in New York justifies Bret Hart beating Kobashi? I could rattle off of list of superstars who have won titles in New York and it doesn't mean all of them can beat Kobashi. This match isn't even in New York so why does anything you said matters?
     
    #4
  5. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Vote Hogan, Savage, Rocky and Thesz

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    Actually, the match is in MSG. In New York City. But either way, as I stated earlier, Hart should go over because he's just all-around a better wrestler, and because Hart would definitely go over, kayfabe wise, in America. Hart locks on a Sharpshooter to earn the tapout around 15 minutes in.
     
    #5
  6. Little Jerry Lawler

    Little Jerry Lawler Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids

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    My bad. I was focused on the Chicago Region and actually thinking it was in Chicago.

    However, I don't think Kobashi is simply going to tap out to Bret Hart. Kobashi has tons of moves in his arsenal that could put Bret away and while Bret may have been one of the toughest wrestlers in the sport, Kobashi is that much tougher.
     
    #6
  7. PsychoBlack

    PsychoBlack Damn it feels good to be a Taylor!!

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    Did you miss the part where i said kobashi has never done anything outside of japan? which means that if this match is anywhere other than japan, specifically north america hart goes over. and yes the match is in new york at msg fucktard pay attention to detail before you decide to jump down someones throat
     
    #7
  8. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Who the hell are you calling a fucktard? Do something besides write shit, nonsensical posts before you decide to flame someone who has been here longer than you and who owned up to his mistake.

    Anyway, Kobashi easily goes over Bret Hart here. Although Kobashi is much more versatile, a better draw in absolute terms, and, in my opinion, twice the worker Bret Hart ever was (behind Arn Anderson, Bret Hart's the most predictable wrestler ever), I am not voting for Kobashi for any of these reasons.

    Rather, I am voting against Hart for being one the most hypocritical and delusional professional wrestlers to ever step into the ring. Here's a man who has just NOW, about 12 years after it happened, finally shut the fuck up about the Montreal Screwjob. Why is this, you ask? Because all of his other sources of revenue dried up and the only way to keep financially afloat was to go back to The Vince. Also, if you've read his biography, then you'll realize that there's no man who wants the ability to ******e himself more than Bret Hart; he thinks he's God's gift to professional wrestling, when all he honestly ever was was McMahon's last resort and handful of great matches.

    Do the right thing, vote for Kobashi.
     
    #8
  9. Adam08

    Adam08 Pre-Show Stalwart

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    I am going with Bret Hart here yes Kobashi imo is the better wrestler. But most of the americans wrestling fans are not familar with Kobashi and the majority will behind Bret Hart. I see Bret going over via Sharp shooter in a hard fought match.
     
    #9
  10. Little Jerry Lawler

    Little Jerry Lawler Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids

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    So you think Kobashi is the better wrestler and yet you're going with Hart because American wrestling fans are not familiar with Kobashi. You must obviously be since you think Kenta is the better wrestler?
     
    #10
  11. PsychoBlack

    PsychoBlack Damn it feels good to be a Taylor!!

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    Little jerry lawler i apologize for flaming you you owned up to your mistake as i was posting. And tdigle kayfabe yes brett goes over kenta as it is in north america. both of these guys are capable of great matches and have outstanding ability that was the only way i could vote was kayfabe.
     
    #11
  12. Megadeth

    Megadeth AKA Asm92784

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    Bret Hart the 2nd most predictable wrestler ever, really? The Hitman has probably won more "Big-Time" matches without using his finishing move than any other wrestler, in the past 30 years. His match against Roddy Piper, when he reversed the Sleeper into a pin, or against Diesel for his 3rd WWF title with a reversal of the Jacknife into a small package. When he won his 5th title, by provoking HBK causing him to hitthe Undertaker with a chair, leading to the pin. Or again, beating Stone Cold in their first match by reversing the Million Dollar Dream. Not to mention, when he won the King of the Ring, he had 3 matches in 1 night, that were very different from each other, and not one of them ended in a Sharpshooter. Plus Bret never gets the credit he deserves for some of his High risk moves. While he is known for his technical ability, bret was also doing Suicide Dives and vaulting moves over the rope to the outside before they were really that common.

    And as far as drawing power, Bret Hart kept the then WWF afloat during one of its roughest times, drawing all around the world, the US, Canada, europe, even in the middle east. Kobashi never drew a dime outside of Japan.

    Bret has beat just about everyone from every different style. Hart was trained by 2 japanese wrestlers, so he would be familiar with Kobashi's style, and there is no way he loses this one.
     
    #12
  13. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Can you not read? When did I ever say that Bret Hart finished his matches with the exact same move? Here, let's let Ric Flair do the talking (from page 223 of Ric Flair: To Be The Man):

    Obviously, there's variation to one respect: Bret's finisher. But, every single one of his matches had all of the other moves listed, and in that order. Also, all of those matches you listed were shit save for one: his match with Piper at WM VIII.

    When did Bret Hart ever draw 60,000 people to one location like Kobashi? Don't even try to battle on the drawing power, because Kobashi crushes Bret Hart. Let's look at this in terms of efficiency: all Kobashi had to do in his prime was walk to the Tokyo Dome and 60K+ people would show up. According to you, Bret Hart could draw on different continents, but you're deluding yourself if you think that these crowds were ever bigger than 15K. So, essentially, what you're saying is that Hart had to extensively globetrot for the amount of fans that Kobashi can pack into a Japanese venue by just simply scratching his ass.

    Yes, of course, because all Japanese wrestlers are the same :rolleyes:. How come neither of these guy made a name for themselves in either NJPW or AJPW, and how come they spent almost their entire careers in Stu Hart's Stampede Wrestling? If they were any good, they would've been wrestling the likes of Inoki and Baba.

    Your arguments hold hardly any weight. Whoever wants to debate me next, step on up.
     
    #13
  14. Mr. Truth

    Mr. Truth Real American Hero

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    Of course Kobashi draws Brett in the second round. Since a majority of people here won't even bother reading these posts and just say Bret vs Japanese Dude I've never heard of and will just click for Bret. To the people who actually read these, there's really know way Kobashi loses to Bret. Kobashi is one of the toughest wrestlers out there. The guy doesn't get submitted, so the chance of Bret getting Kobashi in the sharpshooter and getting him to tap is next to nil. He also has numerous ways to finish off someone. You want a quick move? He's got the burning lariat. You want something more powerful? He's got the Burning Hammer and the Brainbuster. Kobashi has also put on more then 10 times the amount of five star matches then Bret has. So for anyone who says Bret was more entertaining, there's that for you. As tdigle said earlier, Bret drew far less then Kobashi. The only concievable way anyone can logically vote for Bret over Kobashi is if you liked watching him over a decade ago. To those people, I say watch one of Kobashi's five star matches. You'll be amazed that you even thought Bret deserves to go over.
     
    #14
  15. Megadeth

    Megadeth AKA Asm92784

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    My point was that how is it predictable when you never no when the match is going to end. Most of those matches Bret was just about to lose before a reversal out of nowhere for the win. He never hit all those moves leading up to his victory. And Ric Flair is hardly an authority on varity in a match. How many of his matches did he not do his face flop, or his flip over the turnbuckle, or a rake to the eyes, or a low blow.


    Last time I checked, Bret Hart and the British Bulldog drew over 80,000 to Wembley Stadium in 1992 for Summer Slam. And I am sure you will argue that the Bulldog is the reason for the crowd, but in all reality, with all due respect to Davey Boy, how many fans did he really draw in his career. Bret was the driving force behind that match, he actually went to Vince McMahon and suggested it to him. If Bulldog had been facing anyone else, it would not have been the sucess that it was. The Hart/Smith match for the IC title went on as the main event that evening over The Ultimate Warrior/Randy Savage WWF title match. Everyone remembers that night for Hart/Bulldog not Warrior/Macho. Hart/Bulldog was the match that was given all the build-up going into that night, I actually just had to check to even remember what other matches were on the card.

    I never said all japanese wrestlers were the same, I simply stated he has some background with japanese wrestling style. Just like every wrestler in the US are not the same, but there is an underlying thread of commonality between those trained in a Japanese style, just like there is in those trained in an "American" style.
     
    #15
  16. ScreaminNormanSmiley

    ScreaminNormanSmiley formerly ScreaminNormanSmiley

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    this match would deffinatley be a classic. it should be a tough draw for both of them but im affraid to many people will just blindley vote for brett. its two close of a match for me to decide right now because id mark out for both of them so im going to have to base it off of peoples arguements, but right now im leaning towards kenta
     
    #16
  17. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Bret Hart in no way, shape, or form drew for Summerslam 1992. Davey Boy Smith was a mid-carder for life, but this doesn't explain away the main reason for why this PPV drew so much, which would be that it was the first PPV the WWF ever held in England. And, why wouldn't this match go on last? Davey Boy Smith's theme was Rule, Brittania! and he wore a Union Jack; what better way for the WWF to show their appreciation to England?

    Also, you mentioning this as Hart's ability to draw does nothing but weaken your argument. By all accounts, Hart was still a mid-carder at this time. He never, ever wrestled in front of a crowd this big again. So, when he became a World Champion, he actually drew less than when he was an Intercontinental Champion; could anything damage someone's credibility as a World Champion more than their inability to draw more fans as the face of a wrestling promotion? I think not.
     
    #17
  18. The Brain

    The Brain King Of The Ring

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    Bret Hart is one of my favorite (possibly my favorite) wrestlers to watch. I haven't voted yet, but am leaning toward Hart. I haven't voted yet because I honestly don't know much about Kobashi. I need someone to make a strong argument for Kobashi to get me to vote for him over Hart. Let me be clear; an argument FOR KOBASHI, not AGAINST HART.

    I think Bret has put on a lot of five star matches. You simply saying Kobashi has put on 10 times the amount does not make it so. Please give me some examples. I assume you're exaggerating because if you're not you need to list about 100 matches.

    I'm not calling you out and I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm simply asking you to provide examples for me. You say I'll be amazed even if I thought Bret deserved to go over. I'm giving you a chance. Prove it. You tube links would be helpful. I'll hold off on my vote until you respond.
     
    #18
  19. Mr. Truth

    Mr. Truth Real American Hero

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    Here's Kobashi's 5 star matches
    Here's Bret Hart's
    Yes, I just quoted from wikipedia, but wikipedia is the source of all that is knowledge.
    Here's an awesome match from 2004 against Jun Akiyama. It's a type of match that shows off everything Kobashi has to offer.
    [YOUTUBE]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/9l0mm3MxguM&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/9l0mm3MxguM&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]
    [YOUTUBE]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/dDSjSHcA2HA&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/dDSjSHcA2HA&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]
    [YOUTUBE]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/o2ZSAHG0LKo&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/o2ZSAHG0LKo&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object> [/YOUTUBE]
    [YOUTUBE]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/EGXl9GIVcuM&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/EGXl9GIVcuM&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]
    Here's another excellent match against Misawa.
    [YOUTUBE]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/5ANvKlcT6F4&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5ANvKlcT6F4&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]
    Basically, Kobashi at his best throws everything he's got at you for 40 minutes enough to weaken you to go for the Burning Hammer.
     
    #19
  20. The Brain

    The Brain King Of The Ring

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    Good research and thanks for the clips. I'm not going to watch them now as it's 2 am where I am. Just a couple things I want to point out. First of all I'm not too familiar with the wrestling observer newsletter, but from what I've heard they're anti WWF when it comes to rating matches. I'm not sure how reliable that is, but that's what I've heard. Secondly, I'm not going to count the tag matches. I'm not saying tag matches can't be five star matches, but this is singles competition. Lastly, there are many Bret Hart matches that I consider five star matches that are the wrestling observer does not. They include:

    vs. Mr. Perfect, SummerSlam 91
    vs. Roddy Piper, WrestleMania VIII
    vs. British Bulldog, SummerSlam 92
    vs. Shawn Michaels, Survivor Series 92
    vs. Owen Hart, WrestleMania X
    vs. Shawn Michaels, WrestleMania XII
    vs. Steve Austin, Survivor Series 96

    Bret has also had what I consider to be four star matches against Ric Flair (1992), Mr. Perfect (1993), Diesel (1994 & 1995), Bob Backlund (1994), Hakushi (1995), British Bulldog (1995), and Undertaker (1997). And I'm sure there are some I'm forgetting.

    I'll take a look at the videos you provided tomorrow and decide. I'm looking forward to it.
     
    #20
  21. 48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You

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    The only person I dislike more than a Japanese wrestler is Bret Hart. He's got to be, hands down, the most overrated wrestler by the internet community of them all. Bret Hart is boring. Vote for Koba-... something.
     
    #21
  22. It's...Baylariat!

    It's...Baylariat! Team Finnley Baylor

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    ONE fucking person comes in here and makes a case for Hart. And there's 27 votes for him? This is why we just need to discount any research and any logic in our voting and just vote for who's more familiar.

    Kenta Kobashi is a top 10 wrestler of all time. OK. The man is known as someone who could carry a match further than anyone in the business, including Ric Flair. Kobashi's been in the toughest battles, the most classic matches, and has proved so much more in wrestling than Bret Hart.

    Monotony is Bret Hart's forte. He's known as a routine wrestler who goes through the motions in the ring. His classic matches where when he either LOST or actually broke from his routine. The two I can think of are his matches with the British Bulldog at Summerslam, his Wrestlemania match with Owen Hart, and his other WM match with Roddy Piper.

    Kobashi's had too many classic matches to count. Tag team or singles matches. And if you want further proof...

    [youtube]0A0HBIG7Qjc[/youtube]

    This is Bret Hart having fits with Tiger Mask 2, or Mitsuharu Misawa. Misawa is considered on the level and even better than Kobashi, and Hart could do nothing with him. Every move Hart used, Tiger Mask countered it. Hart was out wrestled in this match by a long shot and who is to say that Kobashi wouldn't do the same thing to him? Exactly.

    And if I don't see a reason for voting for Hart in here, I'm going to start red repping random people who voted for him. Plain and simple.
     
    #22
  23. gd

    gd Plump, Juicy User

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    To my knowledge Kobashi is the best Japanese guy ever when it comes to the whole package. Not sure if that's exactly true, but judging by some of the matches I've seen he seems like quite the badass. If there's one Japanese guy that deserves to go really far, it's him.

    As for Bret, sure he was a really good wrestler, but he's become quite popular on here. Perhaps a little too popular. Also, do you really want a repeat champ? That'd be boring as hell. Let's get him out ASAP.
     
    #23
  24. Steamboat Ricky

    Steamboat Ricky WZCW's Living Legend

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    Lariat:

    A) This is an English-language forum. Of course people are going to be biased toward Hart.

    B) The match is at MSG. MSG is the heart of WWE. Hart thus has a TREMENDOUS home field advantage.

    C) All of the Kobashi matches and even the Tiger Mask match are all in Japan. What about ability to get over in the States?
     
    #24
  25. Papa Shango

    Papa Shango Frontman of the WZ Band!!

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    "Getting over" in the states means very little in relation to winning in the states. Japanese wrestlers aren't like American wrestlers. They don't change their style to pander to a different crowd. Kenta's not Hogan, who actually did some very impressive wrestling in Japan before coming back to the US and forgetting everything he ever learned. And it;s not like Kenta's never wrestled American-style guys. He's had 5-star matches with Stan Hansen, Dr. Death Steve Williams, and Samoa Joe.

    Fact is, and Lariat pretty much said the same thing, is that Bret Hart almost ALWAYS lost when he was taken out of his element. Bret Hart was the top guy during a "big pond, little fish" era of the WWF. He could easily beat most of the roster with a handful of moves. But his equals (and superiors), like Bulldog, like Piper, like HBK would force him to step up and he almost always failed. He's not a big match winner. He couldn't beat Bulldog in England, he couldn't beat his brother Owen, he couldn't outlast HBK in an Iron Man match. Bret Hart has only three standout big match wins; Against Piper, against Yokozouna, and against Stone Cold. The wins against Piper and Austin took absolutely every fiber of his being to do, and Bret didnt really beat Yoko in that match. Yoko beat Yoko, fat tub o lard.

    Kenta Kobashi would not be intimidated wrestling in New York. He would still bring his A game, and everything he's got. He's stronger, he's faster, he's smarter. And, even though Bret Hart, to his credit, has an extensive technical background, I believe Kenta Kobashi is one of the few men in the world who is as good, if not better than Hart. So yes, even at MSG, I think Kenta would completely outwrestle Bret Hart.

    I also believe that Kenta could counter the Sharpshooter into the Burning Hammer. How? No idea. But he could do it.
     
    #25

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