Samoa Joe vs. Kenta Kobashi (10/1/05)

[X]

Earlier today I threw down the gauntlet to a friend of mine Razor on here to discuss ROH after seeing him demean the product continuously. This quickly turned into incredibly lengthy posts being made in the Bar Room. Well, fuck it, we're all post ****es, so now this is a nonspam thread because I literally just watched this match from start to finish, pausing and rewinding to judge each and every spot and move, and damnit if I'm not getting credit for it.


This all stems from this thread in the Bar Room:

http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=89037


So here is my response. If anyone else wants to jump in and chime in on their opinions on this match, feel free and go for it guys, that's why I'm starting this thread.

For those who haven't seen it, here is a link to the match in question:

http://www.megavideo.com/?d=YOD53O66


Now, onto my response to Razor's last post...it's a long one.

A whole thread for little ole me? This is just because I don't think the Attitude Era was any good also. But, you know. I'll roll.

Wait you think the Attitude Era sucked too? Seriously? The fuck?

One of the matches I watched last night was Jerry Lynn vs. Delirious. It was bullshit, but it was from 2009. I've heard that their best stuff is from 2006, so I've found some of it and I will comment on it later in this post.

Jerry Lynn vs. Delirious

The other match I watched was McGuinness vs. Perkins, and it was ******ed. It had a few cool spots, but other than that, McGuinness was being pushed as being bigger and stronger than Perkins. Okay. That would normally be fine if Perkins was actually fast, and if McGuinness didn't sometimes get knocked over by Perkins but then no sell at other times.

Yeah you just picked two completely random matches didn't you? I can tell. Go watch this match: KENTA vs. Nigel McGuinness from March of this year:

http://www.megavideo.com/?d=PRJONHS8


You can't judge an entire promotion's eight year history off of two random matches from YouTube. I wouldn't go watch a Hugh Morrus match and then just decide all of WCW sucked.

ST, I would like to know how you know I didn't give these matches a chance. Keep bullshitting, please. I watched ROH a few years ago trying to give them a chance, and they used up all of those chances. I may not watch ROH and like it, but I am still a wrestling fan. Just because I like WWE more than the other promotions doesn't mean I suddenly am a lower tier poster.

No but some of your criticisms here are just absolutely ridiculous and are things you would absolutely NEVER criticize someone like Cena for doing in the WWE.

Now, ignoring the obvious pot shots you took at me Xfear, including the obligatory "You've disagreed with Xfear on wrestling, so you must not know anything about wrestling ever" comment

It's only obligatory when someone makes it abundantly clear they don't. I don't expect every poster on this forum to have a working knowledge of Championship Wrestling from Florida and have an attic full of Michinoku Pro tapes or something, it's not really a knock against you. The knock against you was that you just dismissed AN ENTIRE PROMOTION as being total garbage based off of two matches that no one gave a fuck about. That's the idiotic thing.

Alright. Everyone likes Samoa Joe. I assume he'll be a face this match? Oh, wait. Everyone is chanting for Kobashi. This'll be interesting when psychology comes into the picture. That's nice, ROH fans are throwing toilet paper into the ring. Reminds me of the kind of stupid shit ECW fans would try to pull. Oh well, Samoa Joe is acting all "You're going down" heel, so maybe he'll be the heel. How nice, Kobashi gets streamers. Still, fucking annoying.

And I see right from the get-go youve already begun proving my point about your wrestling knowledge Razor. Yeah, that "toilet paper" they're throwing in the ring? It's a Japanese custom that dates back hundreds of years and has been a tradition in the Japanese wrestling world forever. It's a sign of honor and respect, and the ROH fans wanted to show Kobashi their appreciation for all of his years of great work by honoring him as he would be in his homeland.


Next, there really isn't a heel-face dynamic here. Joe and Kobashi are really both faces here, if you can consider Joe's character at the time a face. He was more of a rebellious tweener along the lines of say a 1997 Stone Cold. You don't always need a heel-face dynamic to make a good match.

I will say this. The handshake before and after the match isn't silly. It actually adds something. It'd look weird in the WWE, but I like it here.

Good, it's a tradition. The entire point of ROH is that it's supposed to be about treating pro wrestling as seriously as possible and making it as "real" as possible, including things like sportsmanship you'd expect in any other sport.

Lulz, Samoa Joe slapped Kobashi. He's the heel. Good psychology and everything. One thing I have to say though. Why are the fans chanting "This is awesome!"? There has literally been 2 grapples, 2 kicks, a slap, and a chop so far. If we're going by that bar, I'd love to see how they react to Taker's chokeslam. They must have a collective orgasm all over ringside.

Yeah, I may love ROH, but I fucking hate the crowds. Atleast they aren't as bad as the TNA crowds who literally began chanting that Jim Neidhart "still had it" after ONE back body drop. They're overenthusiastic, but you can't blame them, they're seeing two of the best in the world lock up, I'd be amped up too.

My first problem of the match. Kobashi is taken out of the ring by a shoulder block from Samoa Joe that looked fine. Okay. But then he stands there waiting for Joe to slide into him, then he waits there again (just staring) for Joe to go back and dive through the ropes onto him.

Uhh, what are you talking about? You talking about that insane .5 of a second that Kobashi had his head raised and looking at Joe? You move away from a Samoa Joe dropkick in less than a second Razor. How is this unrealistic? After the initial baseball slide by Joe, Kobashi is sent reeling back and hits his back against the steel guardrail. That kind of thing hurts, especially when you're 40 years old like Kobashi is. He was dazed for a second which allowed Joe to come out with the suicide-dive.

This is what I mean. You've overanalyzed a series of moves so much here that you've simply begun just picking out things that there's absolutely nothing wrong with.

That kind of stilted spot would normally be fine, we see it all the time in the WWE. However, when Joe makes contact with Kobashi, Kobashi basically takes a step back while Joe lands on the ground.

...Ahh, again, the fuck are you talking about? Kobashi gets hit by Joe coming flying out of the ring, which sends him back into the guardrail again, and when the camera pans up again we see Kobashi on the ground in pain.

Then, suddenly, Kobashi is weak enough to be rolled into the ring and actually stay down for a 2 count.

Barely a 2 count. Kobashi kicked out as the referee was counting 2. I'm sure you're aware Razor that a three hundred pound Samoan human missile coming at you is probably going to hurt quite a bit.

He didn't look that hurt 10 seconds ago. Joe must just be that strong.

What do you mean he didn't look that hurt 10 seconds ago? Yes he did, the camera CLEARLY shows Kobashi on the floor outside of the ring in pain after the suicide dive. What match are you watching?

I also don't like that Joe is the heel, and he's going for these flashy dives. Though he corrects it with a nice suplex/elbow/head lock combo later. He hasn't completely forgotten his psychology.

Again, Joe isn't really a typical heel here, his entire career has been based on the fact that he's a big man but can pull off all of these flashy and daring moves. And explain to me how Joe could have forgotten his psychology? For doing a suicide dive? Explain to me how that was bad psychology.

What the fuck. Seriously. Joe kicks Kobashi in the back of the head and it takes him down. Joe kicks Kobashi in the forehead 10 times, and Kobashi hulks up. Joe kicks him in the forehead another 10 times, and Kobashi still hulks up. That makes no fucking sense. He may be Kobashi, but that doesn't mean he can take 20 kicks to the head and still chop Joe like it was Hornswoggle flicking his shin.

There was about a minute long period between the first kick to the back of the head and the series of kicks that had MUCH less impact than the initial kick. There's no reason Kobashi couldn't quickly react after those second set of kicks when they're only about 5 minutes into the match Razor. Kobashi regularly wrestled matches of an hour and longer in Japan and still does. He's got more stamina than you could imagine.

Okay, apparently Kobashi only goes down to knees to the front of his head or kicks to the back of his head. Don't try his forehead, Joe. It won't work.

And here's a nice little comment that shows to me again that you aren't even attempting to give this match an objective chance. Smart-aleck comments have what to do with this match?

Joe sits Kobashi in a chair and starts to kick him in the chest. Why couldn't Joe do this in the ring?

Because the ring is alot softer than the concrete floor and steel guardrail that Kobashi is perched against perhaps?

Sit Kobashi in a corner and kick him there. Hell, you can even use the ropes to run into him. He does a running boot to Kobashi's face. That'd be fine, if Joe was going fast. It looked like he was skipping to Kobashi, then kicked him in the side of the face. It worked because Joe didn't kick him in the forehead. I'm sure of it. Kobashi is out, because he just got a boot to the face.

And here you are again being a smartass and clearly showing that you aren't even attempting to give this match a chance. Yeah I'm sorry Joe doesn't have the speed of Michael Jordan Razor, he's a bit heavy ya know. Tell you what, go take a running boot to the face from Samoa Joe, let me know how quickly it takes you to get up.

Why is the ref just saying over and over again, "Joe, in the ring, Joe." Start a count or something. Fuck, disqualify the douchebag. I mean really. That ref's a bitch.

Umm...what? Why the hell would he do that for a dream match that had been hyped for months? That would have made zero sense whatsoever Razor. You don't complain when the refs don't DQ someone in the WWE if it's a big time match. Shit half of the World title matches this decade have involved weapons. When a match is important enough the ref is never going to DQ someone, especially for being outside the ring too long.

Oh, and the count in ROH is 20. So they have plenty of time.

Good psychology: Joe goes for another skipping boot, but Kobashi stops him with an elbow. He learned his lesson. I so proud of the WRESTLING VETERAN.

Are you really taking potshots at Kenta Kobashi? Seriously now?

Joe gets chopped over the barrier from sitting in a chair (which doesn't make all that much sense...but I'll let it slide. It's Kobashi, and I've seen people chopped out of the ring during WWE spots) and the ref just now grows a set and gets to the ground so he can get Kobashi into the ring. Kobashi literally looks the ref in the face, then turns back to Joe. I guess that means Kobashi is going to help Joe in the ring...NO! A DDT! Wow, no one gives a shit about that ref.

I'm sorry, is there a point here? I'm not seeing any constructive or objective critique of the match here, just you trying to make witty comments.

Kobashi doing diving chops is hilarious. Mostly because they don't look like they hurt for anything. Joe is out of it though, apparently that DDT really fucking hurt.

...What match are you watching? Is there something wrong with your computer screen? Can you not see the large red welts that begin appearing on Joe's chest? Do you not hear those vicious slaps? Trust me Razor, when you train and wrestle in Japan you know and perform more deadly strikes than any American style wrestling dojo will teach you.

Another "This is awesome!" chant. More like "This crowd will chant for anything!" Kobashi has Joe in a fucking headlock. It's fine storywise, but this crowd is acting like Kobashi has him in a fucking superplex from the entry way.

Again, why the fuck is it wrong that the crowd is excited? Do you not like hot crowds? Because usually a hot crowd is ALWAYS a big plus to a match.

They've gone into a chop fest now. That would be fine, but after the first 5 it looks like Joe is just slapping Kobashi on the chest. You know, like a 5 year old would slap her daddy because he's tickling her. Kobashi is barely any better. Joe should have kept to kicking the shit out of Kobashi. It would have been better, I'm sure.

Tell ya what Razor, go to YouTube right now and find me what you see as "good" chops being performed. Because if you're seriously sitting here and trying to tell me that KENTA KOBASHI's chops aren't very good, well, I'm afraid you've lost this conversation before it's really even began.

Really, I'd love to hear what is so wrong with these chops. Do you bitch every time Ric Flair pulled out a chop? CLEARLY you aren't familiar with the strong or shoot styles of professional wrestling, two mainstays in Japan and in which Kobashi is pretty much a master of. There's a large emphasis on quick and precise strikes in the shoot and strong styles, what you're criticizing right now is ridiculous, it would be as if you started bitching about Rey Mysterio doing a hurricanrana in a match against a cruiserweight---what the hell do you think you're watching? This isn't John Cena vs. JBL in a classic WWE-style brawl.

Kobashi has Joe in a Torture Rack? Seriously? It looks really odd. Joe should have Kobashi in the hold.

It only looks odd to you because you've never seen Kobashi before and have never watched puroresu. Atleast that's my guess, have you ever seen Kobashi or Japanese wrestling before? Because Kobashi is as strong as a horse and has the fighting spirit of a champion in the very same sense that guys like Hogan, Austin, and Cena have.

Nothing wrong with laying a torture rack on Joe, Kobashi knows quite a few submissions, and with Joe just using his back as a weapon against Kobashi a few minutes before with a senton, it makes sense. Stretch him out, wear him down, and take him out. Absolutely nothing wrong here.

Joe just powerbombed Kobashi into the corner. It was supposed to look cool, I guess. It really looked like Joe got Kobashi up, couldn't hold him up, and dropped him backwards. That is good psychology, I guess, because 5000000 chops to the chest will make anyone's arms tired.

Considering Joe's finishing move puts immense strain on the back, it also makes perfect sense for him to be attacking it.

"Holy shit" because of a powerbomb. Seriously. At least the ECW fans waited until Sabu botched a basic chair shot to call out "Holy shit."

It was a rather impressive spot, if you saw that in the WWE Razor you'd probably get a woody.

Now see, it looks like Joe is hurting Kobashi now. Why? Joe is using the ring ropes to pick up speed and actually hurt Kobashi. Kobashi's selling isn't the problem, I think. It's Joe's believability during his offensive moves.

Explain to me what's wrong with his offensive moves? You're criticizing things that are not there man.

Okay, so Joe does a cool looking suplex move on Kobashi. The ref totally counts 3, but says he counted 2 on the pin. Lulz. Joe is mad.

And now we have a powerbomb into a STF transition. Somehow, it looks weaker than when Cena does it, but all I hear is "Joe does the STF better than that *** Cena!>!>! !?!? !>!> J@"

Well if you were actually paying attention you'd see that it takes Joe a good ten or fifteen seconds of struggling with Kobashi before actually being able to put the STF on. When he puts it on though it's perfectly adequate, nothing wrong with the move at all, looks quite painful infact.

The crowd is chanting "He's so fat!" That's rather rude, when you were cheering the same dude literally 5 seconds ago.

Actually Razor they're chanting "Please Don't Tap!" because they don't want the match to end because they're having such a good time watching this match. Which is what you and Sly always tell me is the point of pro wrestling--to entertain/please the crowd.

Kobashi manages to nail a Half Nelson Suplex on Joe. Why is everyone freaking out? I don't understand. NOW the ref starts a fucking count out. Please.

Why are they freaking out? Because Joe just landed DIRECTLY on top of his neck at an accelerated speed. It hurts. A LOT.

And now Kobashi goes into what Slyfox hated so much, his string of chops. The first set didn't really slow down, it was the second set. They went from full strength to pussy slaps that were weaker than what Joe was throwing earlier. Joe is still selling them like they're cockslaps from the penis of God himself though, so you got me.

Okay, if you haven't noticed I'm watching this match on my TV while responding to you, so I'm going to make sure to really pay attention to the chop spot here because somehow it was just SO BAD that it made this match "total crap".

The first set of chops are all hard as fuck and you can see some of the water and sweat on Joe flying off of his body as Kobashi slaps him. His chest is red as fuck.

The second set of chops also starts off vicious, but after maybe five or so they start to get slower and slower. Which is EXACTLY what happens when you sit there chopping someone for a minute Razor. Your arm gets tired, why the hell wouldn't his chops begin to look weak? He's running out of energy. You know, like a human being does.

But here's where Kobashi shows his fighting spirit. He digs deep down and musters up a new burst of energy, a second wind, and begins laying the extremely vicious chops down on him again. I tell ya Razor, Joe must've had purple nipples after this match from how hard and how many times he was getting those deadly chops. In fact did you notice the point when the camera zoomed into Joe's chest and showed those NASTY bruises and welts that were already developing on Joe's chest from all of those chops? Explain to me again how those didn't hurt. We literally have physical evidence shown to us of the contrary.

Joe's selling here is perfectly fine. I don't see what the problem is, he isn't overselling them as you claim. When you're getting repeatedly hit again and again and again after a being dropped on top of your neck you tend to get weaker and not be able to fight back. After the chops Joe lets out a sigh of relief like "Oh thank GOD it's over" and just slumps into the corner to try and get some breath and recover a bit before going back at Kobashi again. This is absolutely perfect selling here, nothing wrong at all.

Okay, so the psychology wasn't that horrible. I think the shortcoming of this match was Joe, and his either overselling of moves or underselling, depending on how he felt at the moment. Kobashi obviously wasn't a weak link, though the building of the match around the chop (they even ended the match after a string of chops to Joe) kinda seemed odd. It was a 20 minute or so match, and 10 of it had to be chops while Joe kicked for the rest of it. The crowd really killed it for me as well. They cheered for literally no reason at all.

But then comes the Lariat, the Burning Lariat, a move Kobashi has perfected and made famous, which finally gets him the win. The match is over, both men are drained, and the crowd is pleased. And you guys are trying to tell me this wasn't a great match?

Okay, I'll try to address each point of yours here.

1) Joe was not over or underselling at any point in this match, and I attempted to give you my reasoning for that earlier in this post.

2) The match wasn't really built around the chops and kicks as much as you say it is, all together it took up maybe five minutes in total, or about 1/4 of the match length, maybe less. I also kind of noticed you didn't mention some of the nicely executed variation of suplexes performed by Kobashi after the "chop fest" in question. Joe looked almost dead after that second half-nelson suplex. By the time the third one came, Joe was totally out of it, as he should be. He begins crawling around the ring, struggling to even do that before getting up and just blindly throwing his fists around in a desperate attempt to try and mount some offense against Kobashi.

3) I'm not sure why a crowd ruins a match for you. That sucks man, but why would a crowd that's REALLY into a match going on be a bad thing? Isn't that the point of a wrestling show? Why would you want them to shut up and be quiet, they paid their hard earned money to go see two great wrestlers lock it up for an intense battle, and they saw that. They had every right to be overreacting to moves and spots.

Now, while Xfear has an aneurysm, I'm going to watch the McGuiness/Danielson match from Unified that I downloaded just for you guys.

Now, I don't think it was a five star affair, but the rating I gave it and still agree with is right between a 4 1/4 stars and 4 1/2 stars. Yes, I do use the same system that Meltzer does. Not a perfect match by any means, but very good. Very good.


Sorry if I come off dickish, you know you're always my e-homey for life man.

I have mixed feelings about the McGuinness/Danielson match from Unified. I thought it was quite good, but not a five star affair like others thought.

Do me a favor and watch this match though and tell me your thoughts:

KENTA vs. Nigel McGuinness (3/21/09)
http://www.megavideo.com/?d=PRJONHS8

 

[Paradox]

I found the match to be decent. It wasn't great in my opinion. Both men worked well. To me it was just lacking. I see what Razor was talking about when Joe dived out of the ring, because I was asking myself the same question. He did get hit and just stand there then you see him on the floor. Maybe he did hit the guardrail, but it didn't look like it. Also, the chops really started getting old after awhile. I seemed as if that's all Kobashi could do. Yes I know each man was trying to out do the other, but for it to go on as long as it did was just ridiculous IMO. Overall it was decent. Not great because there were some parts that either annoyed me or bored me.

 

[jazzua]

Alright, First time I've seen this match. I'm not much of an ROH guy, but I thought I'd try and give this an honest look. Here it goes.

First things first. I know small promotions are always filled with real passionate fans. But what is the deal with chanting at the strangest times? No joke, we are 2 kicks from Joe and 1 chop from Kobashi in and we already have a "this is awesome" chant. Apparently I could get a "This is awesome" chant in ROH, I can totally throw a pretty good chop. Seriously though, I know Kobashi is there and they are excited, but a little early don't you think?

We go outside to a spot talked about above about how long it takes for Joe to hit the baseball slide. I don't see it. It's not like Kenta had a whole day to move out of the way. Maybe on the dive, maybe. But nothing to freak over.

But while we are here, let us talk about Joe and his athleticism. We all know the guy is a freak, and fat. Both are good. However, I like the idea of Joe being more reserved with stepping into ReyRey land. Here's why. I love it when Taker takes flight, or when Vader did it, or any number of the past big guys who could fly. Joe is this strange breed. Sometimes he's bigger than other times. I don't mean literally, even though thats also true. He doesn't strike me as a beast of a man mainly because of his style. So, I have always thought he needed to pick one. If taker did his dive every match I wouldn't care anymore. It goes for Joe too. I think it makes it more impressive when big men pull out high risk moves sparingly. Joe only does the one dive here, but it's just something that has always bothered me. Is he a big man with strong power moves or a medium sized man with a little of everything? Or, a big powerful guy who can fly? Is that allowed in wrestling? I'll have to check.

Back to topic and we are at a spot with a series of kicks and chops, again. I could be watching UFC? They don't have to worry about "looking" real there, it is. The crowd likes it though. "ROH" "ROH" "ROH", at least they are happy. I'm just confused.

Again, I am noticing the Crowd more than the match. Apparently the crowd is from the movie Blindless because they can't see shit. I'm happy for them. They can't see shit but I'm seeing all sorts of it in the ring right now. I'm not counting but I'm 8 or so minutes in and I don't think I've seen one actual wrestling move next to a headlock. Thats not always a bad thing. Some great matches consist of basically punches, kicks, and a few slams, but not this one.

Joe finally hits a suplex and that is the first move I remember seeing. Could be wrong. We see a cool spot where he powerbombs Kenta into the turnbuckle. I think it looks better when Angle does it but how can you not love that spot? Seriously.

They move through an STF and a please don't tap chant into the spot Sly rated as shit. Chop, chop, chop, chop, choppy chop. I don't know, I'm unsure. I could care less about how Joe sells it. It's more the way Kobashi delivers it. X made a comment about whether people complain when Flair does the chops. I just think he does them better. There is more too them when he does it. I know it's a different style of wrestling but thats just me. Flair could do four or five chops in the time Kenta does his 39 or whatever and I think that it would look to be more effective because of his delivery. I don't really care if this spot had a place or if it moved the match along, I just think it looked silly. Joe however, thought it hurt by the looks of it. Poor chest, ouch.

The suplex Kobashi delivers near the end of the match almost had the crowd chanting "Kobashi's gonna kill you" because he almost did. Thing should be called the neck cracker the way Joe came down. Looked brutal. The end came with, surprise, some chops and the Lariat.

I skimmed over it. No way in hell I'm gonna try and do play by play. I thought it was good, not great. I didn't like the fact that they centered the match around chops and some kicks. It just felt off. The first half of the match was nothing but chops and kicks and it wasn't done in a way that pulled me into it, therefore I noticed it. How many Austin matches have I seen where the whole match is punches minus a stunner? Many I guess, this just wasn't the same.

The match moved ok considering they didn't do anything. They are both capable of actually wrestling therefore I don't understand why they didn't. In a match like this you have to have some pretty good emotion behind it. THey didn't sell me emotion.

I know it's ROH and it's stiff but it's just not for me. I didn't see anything that would make me want to watch more. Neither wrestler stood out as making me want to see more of their work. That's probably the worst part. I have definately seen matches that are very good by them. All in all, I just didn't see this one as great. Moderate at best.

Any other matches of Kobashi you could recommend so I can take a better look at him?

 

[SavageTaker]

So I just finished watching this match and what an awesome match it was. The action was great throughout the entire match, even if I feel they overdid it with the chops which I’ll mention later on my post. The match flowed well and told a great story. It was a treat watching it and while I don’t consider it a 5 star match I think it’s still great nonetheless.

Now, while I did like the match and consider it great there were a couple of things I disliked/found annoying. First and foremost, the crowd was annoying. I know it’s exciting to be there and watch such a great match live but not everything Joe and Kobashi did was orgasmic. I found the crowd mildly annoying just because of how excited they would get over things I felt weren’t all that exciting enough to go nuts over.

That’s the first thing, the second thing is the overuse of chops. I didn’t mind them using so many chops up until a point. Then I thought it got a tad ridiculous that they were using so many of them. For example, there was a spot in which they started trading chops back and forth which was fine when they started but then the chops started looking weak and some of them didn’t appear to even connect. To be honest, this is not something that brought down my enjoyment of the match but instead I felt the match could have been better if they reduced the amount of chops used and used some of the other awesome maneuvers both Joe and Kobashi know.

Notice I didn’t list the lack of selling by Kobashi in some parts in the match and that’s because I actually liked it when he didn’t sell some of Joe’s offense. In most cases, I would have been annoyed at the lack of selling but because this is Kobashi we are talking about here, I didn’t mind it. He is obviously a man with a lot of resiliency and endurance so it made sense for him to have moments in which he would make a come back, sort of like “Hulking up.”

As a matter of fact, the lack of selling actually got me excited about what was to come next in the match. For example, near the beginning Joe kept on hitting Kobashi in the face with his knee but it seemed to have no affect on him. So it got me excited because then I knew that Joe would have to do a lot more than a few knee’s and kicks to the face in order to keep Kobashi down.

Overall, I thought the match was great and worth the watch even if it was 2:30 AM here when I began watching it. There are very few things that I found annoying or that I disliked but they weren’t enough to hinder my enjoyment of the match. And the things that would normally annoy me in other matches with different wrestlers I actually liked in this match. If you haven’t watched the match then do yourself a favor and do so because I don’t see a lot wrong with it and because you’ll enjoy it.

 

[Super Crazy]

I thoroughly enjoyed both of the matches you posted X. I watched them from start to finish and found them to be rather good. In fact, I would say they are some of the better matches I have ever seen. As I said in the Bar Room thread, these matches have made me gain an interest in japanese wrestling, and a lot of respect for Nigel McGuiness. Just I said in the other thread, X, you've enlightened me and now it's time to look up japanese wrestling, and more KENTA, and Kobashi matches.

 

[Razor]

Now, onto my response to Razor's last post...it's a long one.

It sure as fuck was. I'm surprised I didn't make a thread about it myself. I'm a bigger post ****e than most anyone, after all.

Wait you think the Attitude Era sucked too? Seriously? The fuck?

You knew this, Xfear. Tenta didn't like it much either. You've already called me an idiot who didn't know much about wrestling because of this comment though, so you can leave it be.

Yeah you just picked two completely random matches didn't you? I can tell. Go watch this match: KENTA vs. Nigel McGuinness from March of this year:

http://www.megavideo.com/?d=PRJONHS8


You can't judge an entire promotion's eight year history off of two random matches from YouTube. I wouldn't go watch a Hugh Morrus match and then just decide all of WCW sucked.

You caught me. I watched a few ROH shows a year or so ago, and hadn't watched much sense. So when people started jumping me, I just went to Youtube and grabbed some matches. It doesn't change the fact they were shit terrible, though.

No but some of your criticisms here are just absolutely ridiculous and are things you would absolutely NEVER criticize someone like Cena for doing in the WWE.

...I don't think they were ridiculous. Probably a bit smarmy, but not ridiculous. If this match is 4 and a half stars like you say it is, it better be damn well fantastic.

It's only obligatory when someone makes it abundantly clear they don't. I don't expect every poster on this forum to have a working knowledge of Championship Wrestling from Florida and have an attic full of Michinoku Pro tapes or something, it's not really a knock against you. The knock against you was that you just dismissed AN ENTIRE PROMOTION as being total garbage based off of two matches that no one gave a fuck about. That's the idiotic thing.

Now see Xfear, I didn't base it solely off of those two matches. As I've said, I've watched ROH shows before. I thought they were shit. Sorry I didn't include those in my post in the Bar Room. I should have thought about that.

And I see right from the get-go youve already begun proving my point about your wrestling knowledge Razor. Yeah, that "toilet paper" they're throwing in the ring? It's a Japanese custom that dates back hundreds of years and has been a tradition in the Japanese wrestling world forever. It's a sign of honor and respect, and the ROH fans wanted to show Kobashi their appreciation for all of his years of great work by honoring him as he would be in his homeland.

Alright. I didn't know that. But they legitimately threw toilet paper in the ring for Samoa Joe. And in the McGuinness/Danielson match from Unified they threw streamers into the ring. Are one of those guys world famous Japanese wrestlers, or did I just completely shoot down that argument?

Next, there really isn't a heel-face dynamic here. Joe and Kobashi are really both faces here, if you can consider Joe's character at the time a face. He was more of a rebellious tweener along the lines of say a 1997 Stone Cold. You don't always need a heel-face dynamic to make a good match.

I realized that by the end of the match. What I posted was what I thought as I saw the match go. It was really a trip into Razor's mind, seeing what he thinks as he's watching a match.

Good, it's a tradition. The entire point of ROH is that it's supposed to be about treating pro wrestling as seriously as possible and making it as "real" as possible, including things like sportsmanship you'd expect in any other sport.

Oh. It's so real that there's a man named "Delirious" who speaks like he's perpetually in a heavy metal screamo band. That makes sense.

Yeah, I may love ROH, but I fucking hate the crowds. Atleast they aren't as bad as the TNA crowds who literally began chanting that Jim Neidhart "still had it" after ONE back body drop. They're overenthusiastic, but you can't blame them, they're seeing two of the best in the world lock up, I'd be amped up too.

Other than myself taking exception to the term "two of the best in the world," I agree. That crowd was cheering over a fucking kick.

Uhh, what are you talking about? You talking about that insane .5 of a second that Kobashi had his head raised and looking at Joe? You move away from a Samoa Joe dropkick in less than a second Razor. How is this unrealistic? After the initial baseball slide by Joe, Kobashi is sent reeling back and hits his back against the steel guardrail. That kind of thing hurts, especially when you're 40 years old like Kobashi is. He was dazed for a second which allowed Joe to come out with the suicide-dive.

No, he was staring at Joe. Seriously. It's just as obvious as whenever HBK moonsaults over the ropes into the waiting arms of the latest heel. They literally stare up and wait as the face or whomever jumps over at them. I understand they do that so that they can catch the man, and it's necessary, but that spot took too long. Joe either needs to speed up or Kobashi needs to not get completely upright until a second or so later.

This is what I mean. You've overanalyzed a series of moves so much here that you've simply begun just picking out things that there's absolutely nothing wrong with.

There was so something wrong with it. That's why I posted negatively about it.

...Ahh, again, the fuck are you talking about? Kobashi gets hit by Joe coming flying out of the ring, which sends him back into the guardrail again, and when the camera pans up again we see Kobashi on the ground in pain.

He wasn't writhing in pain. Nothing serious. Not enough to warrant the coming long 2 count barely 5 minutes into the match.

Barely a 2 count. Kobashi kicked out as the referee was counting 2. I'm sure you're aware Razor that a three hundred pound Samoan human missle coming at you is probably going to hurt quite a bit.

That was a wrestling veteran taking a long 2 count because Joe did a basic wrestling maneuver. And Joe wasn't going that fast Xfear. He's a fat little thing.

What do you mean he didn't look that hurt 10 seconds ago? Yes he did, the camera CLEARLY shows Kobashi on the floor outside of the ring in pain after the suicide dive. What match are you watching?

..It's called "Samoa Joe vs. Kenta Kobashi." I dunno, you linked it to me.

Again, Joe isn't really a typical heel here, his entire career has been based on the fact that he's a big man but can pull off all of these flashy and daring moves. And explain to me how Kobashi could have forgotten his psychology? For doing a suicide dive? Explain to me how that was bad psychology.

No, Joe forgot his psychology. At least, I thought he had there. He was doing all these flashy moves, which to me was going against his heel psychology. Remember Xfear, heels don't want to be cheered. Of course, later in the match I realized that he wasn't going for the full on heel approach.

There was about a minute long period between the first kick to the back of the head and the series of kicks that had MUCH less impact than the initial kick. There's no reason Kobashi couldn't quickly react after those second set of kicks when they're only about 5 minutes into the match Razor. Kobashi regularly wrestled matches of an hour and longer in Japan and still does. He's got more stamina than you could imagine.

So much stamina he can withstand 20 kicks to the head from a man who built his kicks as a sufficient response to Kobashi's chops? Those kicks were built to be devastating. But, apparently Kobashi has a really fucking thick head.

And here's a nice little comment that shows to me again that you aren't even attempting to give this match an objective chance. Smart-aleck comments have what to do with this match?

I was trying to be funny. Sorry I was trying to make myself laugh.

Because the ring is alot softer than the concrete floor and steel guardrail that Kobashi is perched against perhaps?

And that has what to do about the force of the move? If Kobashi is in the ring corner and has a boot to his face, what difference does it make if he is on a steel floor? It's still a boot to his fucking face.

And here you are again being a smartass and clearly showing that you aren't even attempting to give this match a chance. Yeah I'm sorry Joe doesn't have the speed of Michael Jordan Razor, he's a bit heavy ya know. Tell you what, go take a running boot to the face from Samoa Joe, let me know how quickly it takes you to get up.

1) So what, you didn't know I was a smartass?

2) Since he's a wrestler, it shouldn't hurt all that much. You know, wrestlers try not to take full force from moves. So it ought to hurt, sure.But not enough to take Kobashi out for 10 seconds.

3) Joe wasn't even jogging to Kobashi.

Umm...what? Why the hell would he do that for a dream match that had been hyped for months? That would have made zero sense whatsoever Razor. You don't complain when the refs don't DQ someone in the WWE if it's a big time match. Shit half of the World title matches this decade have involved weapons. When a match is important enough the ref is never going to DQ someone, especially for being outside the ring too long.

Oh. So since the match is important the rules are thrown out the window? Bullshit. This isn't ECW, and I thought that ROH was about the pure sport of professional wrestling? Sports have rules, Xfear. And refs should uphold those rules.

Oh, and the count in ROH is 20. So they have plenty of time.

1) I knew that.

2) The ref wasn't counting. They were out there for much too long. The ref was being a bitch.

Are you really taking potshots at Kenta Kobashi? Seriously now?

Yeah, I did. So sorry I made fun of Kobashi. I'll take a 30000 day ban as punishment, all mighty G-Mod.

I'm sorry, is there a point here? I'm not seeing any constructive or objective critique of the match here, just you trying to make witty comments.

Damn it, you caught me. Almost like this was originally a Bar Room post or something.

...What match are you watching? Is there something wrong with your computer screen? Can you not see the large red welts that begin appearing on Joe's chest? Do you not hear those vicious slaps? Trust me Razor, when you train and wrestle in Japan you know and perform more deadly strikes than any American style wrestling dojo will teach you.

Lulz, so? Diving chops look fucking hilarious. If Cena throwing a man into the mat from an elevated position "doesn't look like that would hurt," how does a man diving from a standing position with his hand at an odd angle going to hurt anyone? Lulz.

Again, why the fuck is it wrong that the crowd is excited? Do you not like hot crowds? Because usually a hot crowd is ALWAYS a big plus to a match.

I like hot crowds that actually mean something. They're chanting over bullshit. Chanting over a cool move, sure. Chanting over the heel getting his ass kicked, sure. But chanting over this bullshit? This was 20 minutes of nothing all that cool happening. But the ROH crowd thought it was the second coming of Cena Christ or something.

Tell ya what Razor, go to YouTube right now and find me what you see as "good" chops being performed. Because if you're seriously sitting here and trying to tell me that KENTA KOBASHI's chops aren't very good, well, I'm afraid you've lost this conversation before it's really even began.

So what, a man's name means he automatically does all of his chops well? Then fuck me, Taker must do punches well every fucking time he throws them, and Triple H's kicks must look 100% real every single time.

Really, I'd love to hear what is so wrong with these chops. Do you bitch every time Ric Flair pulled out a chop? CLEARLY you aren't familiar with the strong or shoot styles of professional wrestling, two mainstays in Japan and in which Kobashi is pretty much a master of. There's a large emphasis on quick and precise strikes in the shoot and strong styles, what you're criticizing right now is ridiculous, it would be as if you started bitching about Rey Mysterio doing a hurricanrana in a match against a cruiserweight---what the hell do you think you're watching? This isn't John Cena vs. JBL in a classic WWE-style brawl.

1) Kobashi's chops were getting weaker. They didn't even look like they hurt. You know why they looked weaker? Joe couldn't sell worth shit.

2) I don't like Ric Flair. I know, you're going to bust a nut all over yourself when you realize you can say I know nothing about wrestling again.

It only looks odd to you because you've never seen Kobashi before and have never watched puroresu. Atleast that's my guess, have you ever seen Kobashi or Japanese wrestling before? Because Kobashi is as strong as a horse and has the fighting spirit of a champion in the very same sense that guys like Hogan, Austin, and Cena have.

No, it looked odd because Joe outweighs Kobashi by how much? It'd be like Triple H applying the move to Umaga. You would laugh your ass off.

Nothing wrong with laying a torture rack on Joe, Kobashi knows quite a few submissions, and with Joe just using his back as a weapon against Kobashi a few minutes before with a senton, it makes sense. Stretch him out, wear him down, and take him out. Absolutely nothing wrong here.

I didn't mean "Kobashi shouldn't know a Torture Rack!" I meant, "The size variation in these two men would make that move look better if Joe applied it to Kobashi." Better?

Considering Joe's finishing move puts immense strain on the back, it also makes perfect sense for him to be attacking it.


It was a rather impressive spot, if you saw that in the WWE Razor you'd probably get a woody.

It doesn't excuse the crowd from orgasming because Joe fucked up a powerbomb because he was too tired. I understand the story of it, I don't understand the crowd's response.

Explain to me what's wrong with his offensive moves? You're criticizing things that are not there man.

Joe isn't putting any force behind anything other than his kicks, yet Kobashi is trying to sell like Joe is actually trying. That's what's wrong.

Well if you were actually paying attention you'd see that it takes Joe a good ten or fifteen seconds of struggling with Kobashi before actually being able to put the STF on. When he puts it on though it's perfectly adequate, nothing wrong with the move at all, looks quite painful infact.

It's not any better than Cena's, which is all I hear. That was my point.

Actually Razor they're chanting "Please Don't Tap!" because they don't want the match to end because they're having such a good time watching this match. Which is what you and Sly always tell me is the point of pro wrestling--to entertain/please the crowd.

1) This wasn't a very good match.

2) I misunderstood the crowd. I'm sorry. They chant so many things, I didn't understand what they were cheering this time. Please forgive me.

Why are they freaking out? Because Joe just landed DIRECTLY on top of his neck at an accelerated speed. It hurts. A LOT.

But they freaked out over 2 kicks and a chop before. I was conditioned to second guess what they were cheering. In this case, they cheered for the 30th time over a basic suplex. Sure, it was cool with the Half-Nelson addition, but fuck. Joe could have kicked Kobashi in the arm and that crowd would have thrown money into the ring.

Okay, if you haven't noticed I'm watching this match on my TV while responding to you, so I'm going to make sure to really pay attention to the chop spot here because somehow it was just SO BAD that it made this match "total crap".

Not just that chop sequence itself. I hold that it was Joe and his overall shitty selling.

The first set of chops are all hard as fuck and you can see some of the water and sweat on Joe flying off of his body as Kobashi slaps him. His chest is red as fuck.

As I said, the first set wasn't that bad.

The second set of chops also starts off vicious, but after maybe five or so they start to get slower and slower. Which is EXACTLY what happens when you sit there chopping someone for a minute Razor. Your arm gets tired, why the hell wouldn't his chops begin to look weak? He's running out of energy. You know, like a human being does.

But I thought he was a wrestling legend from the majestic wrestling kingdom of Japan? He got tired? He has so much stamina he can take 20 kicks to the head and hulk up like Hogan. I thought he should be able to complete a decent amount of chops before getting all pussy slap on me. My bad.

But here's where Kobashi shows his fighting spirit. He digs deep down and musters up a new burst of energy, a second wind, and begins laying the extremely vicious chops down on him again. I tell ya Razor, Joe must've had purple nipples after this match from how hard and how many times he was getting those deadly chops. In fact did you notice the point when the camera zoomed into Joe's chest and showed those NASTY bruises and welts that were already developing on Joe's chest from all of those chops? Explain to me again how those didn't hurt. We literally have physical evidence shown to us of the contrary.

It just shows me that Joe is getting hit by the chops that actually hurt at the beginning. Doesn't tell me anything about how hard or soft the second string of chops were.

Joe's selling here is perfectly fine. I don't see what the problem is, he isn't overselling them as you claim. When you're getting repeatedly hit again and again and again after a being dropped on top of your neck you tend to get weaker and not be able to fight back. After the chops Joe lets out a sigh of relief like "Oh thank GOD it's over" and just slumps into the corner to try and get some breath and recover a bit before going back at Kobashi again. This is absolutely perfect selling here, nothing wrong at all.

Tell me this. If Cena were to start punching HBK in the chest a lot, and HBK was all "Holy fuck, this hurts," that would be good selling, right? What if Cena started getting weaker? Say, Cena was getting tired. What if HBK were selling Cena's weaker punches as if they were just as strong as the first, vicious string of punches? That's right, it wouldn't make any sense and everyone would probably shit on Cena for poor punches before they shit on HBK for shitty selling. But still, my point stands.

But then comes the Lariat, the Burning Hammer, a move Kobashi has perfected and made famous, which finally gets him the win. The match is over, both men are drained, and the crowd is pleased. And you guys are trying to tell me this wasn't a great match?

I didn't say the finish was shit. However, I say Joe's selling makes this a shitty match.

Okay, I'll try to address each point of yours here.

1) Joe was not over or underselling at any point in this match, and I attempted to give you my reasoning for that earlier in this post.

And I backed up my reasoning in this rebuttal. Joe was completely overselling the chops and underselling the chops, depending on the point in the match.

2) The match wasn't really built around the chops and kicks as much as you say it is, all together it took up maybe five minutes in total, or about 1/4 of the match length, maybe less. I also kind of noticed you didn't mention some of the nicely executed variation of suplexes performed by Kobashi after the "chop fest" in question. Joe looked almost dead after that second half-nelson suplex. By the time the third one came, Joe was totally out of it, as he should be. He begins crawling around the ring, struggling to even do that before getting up and just blindly throwing his fists around in a desperate attempt to try and mount some offense against Kobashi.

Then what was the story of the match? I seem to believe a whole lot of chop offs. If those didn't matter to the story of the match, then why have them?

3) I'm not sure why a crowd ruins a match for you. That sucks man, but why would a crowd that's REALLY into a match going on be a bad thing? Isn't that the point of a wrestling show? Why would you want them to shut up and be quiet, they paid their hard earned money to go see two great wrestlers lock it up for an intense battle, and they saw that. They had every right to be overreacting to moves and spots.

I would like them to not cheer over basic wrestling maneuvers. Seriously. They fucking cheered 4 minutes into the match "This is awesome!" We had had maybe a few kicks and punches. That's it. If a crowd can cheer for that, but you lambast them for cheering during anything in the WWE, then you're a hypocrite. Plain and simple.

Now, I don't think it was a five star affair, but the rating I gave it and still agree with is right between a 4 1/4 stars and 4 1/2 stars. Yes, I do use the same system that Meltzer does. Not a perfect match by any means, but very good. Very good.

I call bullshit.

Sorry if I come off dickish, you know you're always my e-homey for life man.

We take a different tone when we debate. That's fine. It's the same thing that happens when me and FTS debate in the Cigar Lounge. We're still on a fucking "tag-team," aren't we?

 

[Super Crazy]

I'm going to point something out here in this thread. Everyone and their mother has been bitching about the chops by Kobashi. I'm going to say this, and hope to God that someone realized this too.

Okay so Kobashi is slapping/chopping Joe in the chest multiple times. Not only does it hurt because he is making it hard to breathe by hitting you in the chest, but by constantly hitting in the same spot over and over again it is hurting too. I mean did you see how red Joe's chest was? In my opinion it did not matter how hard the last chops were, as they would still hurt due to the soreness/redness of the chest due to the first ones and the single chops before that.

 

[X]

...I don't think they were ridiculous. Probably a bit smarmy, but not ridiculous. If this match is 4 and a half stars like you say it is, it better be damn well fantastic.

4 and a quarter actually. And yes, it is damn good. We saw a great story told in that ring that entertained the fans, sent everyone home happy, and made both men look like a million bucks.

Alright. I didn't know that. But they legitimately threw toilet paper in the ring for Samoa Joe. And in the McGuinness/Danielson match from Unified they threw streamers into the ring. Are one of those guys world famous Japanese wrestlers, or did I just completely shoot down that argument?

Nope, you didn't, because ROH fans being more "smarky" and usually being very familiar with puroresu, they've been throwing streamers for years now. Fans used to do it in ECW as well. They always throw them for Danielson especially.

Oh. It's so real that there's a man named "Delirious" who speaks like he's perpetually in a heavy metal screamo band. That makes sense.

The man is insane. Why wouldn't he act insane? Delirious is a great character, one of the few actual "characters" in ROH. Gimmicks are bad now too?

Other than myself taking exception to the term "two of the best in the world," I agree. That crowd was cheering over a fucking kick.

That's nice but you're still wrong. Kobashi is one of the greatest wrestlers to ever live, they had every right to be cheering him like that.

No, he was staring at Joe. Seriously. It's just as obvious as whenever HBK moonsaults over the ropes into the waiting arms of the latest heel. They literally stare up and wait as the face or whomever jumps over at them. I understand they do that so that they can catch the man, and it's necessary, but that spot took too long. Joe either needs to speed up or Kobashi needs to not get completely upright until a second or so later.

How did that spot take too long? I literally just sat here and timed how much time was between Kobashi sliding out of the ring and Joe's suicide dive, and it was a grand whopping four seconds Razor. FOUR SECONDS. Are these men supposed to have the speed of Superman or something?

There's NOTHING wrong with that spot, and I've shown you why.

There was so something wrong with it. That's why I posted negatively about it.

Yeah, and I rather easily debunked your criticism.

He wasn't writhing in pain. Nothing serious. Not enough to warrant the coming long 2 count barely 5 minutes into the match.

Yeah, he was. The camera zooms in on Kobashi on the floor clencing his fists and trying to crawl to his feet. Maybe you just weren't paying enough attention.

And as I said before it was BARELY a two count. How the fuck is this a negative thing to a match? Because they had a two count five minutes into the match? Do you actually realize how silly what you're saying sounds? A match sucks because of a two count early in the match? Yeah, that's a TOTALLY rational reason to call a match shit.

That was a wrestling veteran taking a long 2 count because Joe did a basic wrestling maneuver. And Joe wasn't going that fast Xfear. He's a fat little thing.

Umm...what? A suicide dive is a basic wrestling move? Since when? It sure as hell is not, you don't see Batista and Khali and Cena doing suicide dives, it sure as fuck isn't a "basic" move.

No, Joe forgot his psychology. At least, I thought he had there. He was doing all these flashy moves, which to me was going against his heel psychology. Remember Xfear, heels don't want to be cheered. Of course, later in the match I realized that he wasn't going for the full on heel approach.

"Going against his heel psychology"...but as you yourself already said Razor HE IS NOT the heel here. Explain to me how flashy moves are going against heel psychology Razor? He's not trying to get cheered, he's trying to win a wrestling match. The fans are going to cheer for his effort regardless of what moves he performs.

Heels use flashy moves all the time Razor. It's what got guys like Randy Orton and Shawn Michaels over as heels early in their careers---they were the new young guns who had all kinds of talent and moves others couldn't do. To show the fans that they're "better than them". This is actually basic heel psychology right there if you really want to argue this Razor.

So much stamina he can withstand 20 kicks to the head from a man who built his kicks as a sufficient response to Kobashi's chops? Those kicks were built to be devastating. But, apparently Kobashi has a really fucking thick head.

It wasn't 20 kicks, and only the first kick was particularly painful, the following six or seven were more to just lay it on thick.

And yes, this is nothing for Kobashi. Again, the man regularly wrestles an hour.

And that has what to do about the force of the move? If Kobashi is in the ring corner and has a boot to his face, what difference does it make if he is on a steel floor? It's still a boot to his fucking face.

Because outside of the ring Kobashi gets hit by the boot and THEN falls back against the hard steel rail and onto the floor. It's more painful than it would be in the ring Razor, which is why the move was done. Makes perfect sense, you just don't want it to.

2) Since he's a wrestler, it shouldn't hurt all that much. You know, wrestlers try not to take full force from moves. So it ought to hurt, sure.But not enough to take Kobashi out for 10 seconds.

Exaggerrate much? It was more like four seconds.

3) Joe wasn't even jogging to Kobashi.

Yes, he was. This isn't really an arguable point, watch the video, the man certainly isn't walking towards Kobashi.

Oh. So since the match is important the rules are thrown out the window? Bullshit. This isn't ECW, and I thought that ROH was about the pure sport of professional wrestling? Sports have rules, Xfear. And refs should uphold those rules.

Yeah, they are Razor, and I gave you reasons for why this happens in every promotion that's ever existed. Why do you think every WWF title match from the late 90s involved a chair or tables? Because main event matches like that are always different.

But you know, yeah, because the ref didn't start counting them out, the match sucks. Gotcha. A whole ton of really reasonable reasons you're giving me here.

Yeah, I did. So sorry I made fun of Kobashi. I'll take a 30000 day ban as punishment, all mighty G-Mod.

Just making sure, excuse me while I commence laughing my ass off that you would criticize the man, especially since this is probably the first match you've ever seen him in.

How about you attempt even an iota of research into a man before criticizing him as a wrestler? Because if you did you'd know the man is one of the most respected wrestlers to ever live.

Lulz, so? Diving chops look fucking hilarious. If Cena throwing a man into the mat from an elevated position "doesn't look like that would hurt," how does a man diving from a standing position with his hand at an odd angle going to hurt anyone? Lulz.

How do chops hurt Razor? How about you look at Samoa Joe's chest, because as I've said about five times now, THERE ARE RED WELTS popping up on his chest from all of those chops Razor. I mean there is LITERAL physical evidence in front of you that it hurts. You've lost this part of the argument I'm afraid.

I like hot crowds that actually mean something. They're chanting over bullshit. Chanting over a cool move, sure. Chanting over the heel getting his ass kicked, sure. But chanting over this bullshit? This was 20 minutes of nothing all that cool happening. But the ROH crowd thought it was the second coming of Cena Christ or something.

"Nothing all that cool happening"? Please Razor spare me that bullshit, I can only imagine how much you'd mark out if you saw Cena doing even half the things done in this match in the WWE.

So what, a man's name means he automatically does all of his chops well? Then fuck me, Taker must do punches well every fucking time he throws them, and Triple H's kicks must look 100% real every single time.

Pretty much, yeah. There was nothing wrong with his chops in this match whatsoever. But continue beating that dead horse if you'd like, even though the red welts on Joe's chest prove you wrong.

1) Kobashi's chops were getting weaker. They didn't even look like they hurt. You know why they looked weaker? Joe couldn't sell worth shit.

100% wrong. Kobashi's chops began getting weaker because he was getting tired. How the fuck can you even argue this? You have eyes, you can see him breathing heavier and getting tired as he lays more and more chops on him. This is perfect execution and selling on both men's part. But no, because you think "they looked weak", the match sucked. Nevermind the red welts on Joe's chest or the perspiration flying with each chop, nope, it sucks because chops can't hurt!

2) I don't like Ric Flair. I know, you're going to bust a nut all over yourself when you realize you can say I know nothing about wrestling again.

No need to, you thoroughly prove that every time we discuss wrestling. Anyone who doesn't consider Flair to be one of the greatest American professional wrestlers to ever live, yeah, I'd consider them a moron on the topic of professional wrestling. It's simply not up for debate. It's like saying that Hulk Hogan wasn't very important---it's just 100% absolutely false and everyone knows it.

No, it looked odd because Joe outweighs Kobashi by how much? It'd be like Triple H applying the move to Umaga. You would laugh your ass off.

Joe outweighs Kobashi by all of fifteen pounds Razor. Perhaps you didn't notice how large of a frame Kobashi has. So, yet again, you're wrong, and I've proven it.

I didn't mean "Kobashi shouldn't know a Torture Rack!" I meant, "The size variation in these two men would make that move look better if Joe applied it to Kobashi." Better?

Nope, because it's still a completely asinine criticism.

It doesn't excuse the crowd from orgasming because Joe fucked up a powerbomb because he was too tired. I understand the story of it, I don't understand the crowd's response.

And here you go again proving my point about your wrestling knowledge. He didn't fuck up a power bomb Razor, he purposely power-bombed him into the corner on the turnbuckles. It's a fairly routine move that is used in Japan and the indies all the time. It's called a running powerbomb into the turnbuckle. And it was fucking painful, that's why the crowd cheered.

Joe isn't putting any force behind anything other than his kicks, yet Kobashi is trying to sell like Joe is actually trying. That's what's wrong.

How the fuck is he not putting force behind his moves? Tell you what, go find a friend and have him apply the same moves on you, tell me how weak it feels.

1) This wasn't a very good match.

It definitely was, you're just incapable of being objective when it comes to this topic, and you've made that abundantly clear. Nevermind that the match was given five stars by Meltzer and won numerous awards for Match of the Year, no, it must suck because why again? Oh right, chops and the ref didn't count them out. Yeah I know, what a fucking trainwreck!

But they freaked out over 2 kicks and a chop before. I was conditioned to second guess what they were cheering. In this case, they cheered for the 30th time over a basic suplex. Sure, it was cool with the Half-Nelson addition, but fuck. Joe could have kicked Kobashi in the arm and that crowd would have thrown money into the ring.

Again, the fuck is your problem with the crowd? This has NOTHING to do with the two men working in the ring. Does happiness anger you or something? Are you the Grinch Who Stole ROH? "No one must enjoy themselves at this show! NO ONE!"

Not just that chop sequence itself. I hold that it was Joe and his overall shitty selling.

So then I can presume you thought John Cena's match against Shawn Michaels at Wrestlemania 23 was shit as well for Cena's awful selling in that match? Because according to you apparently bad selling is just SO BAD that it makes a match totally suck because of it.

Oh and Joe's selling was perfectly fine, as I've eluded to many times in this and my last post.

But I thought he was a wrestling legend from the majestic wrestling kingdom of Japan? He got tired? He has so much stamina he can take 20 kicks to the head and hulk up like Hogan. I thought he should be able to complete a decent amount of chops before getting all pussy slap on me. My bad.

You're such a hypocrite. One second you want realism, the next second you want him to be Hulk Hogan? When you chop someone twenty times, your arm gets tired. I would LOVE to hear an argument otherwise.

It just shows me that Joe is getting hit by the chops that actually hurt at the beginning. Doesn't tell me anything about how hard or soft the second string of chops were.

Oh you mean those chops you were calling shit before? Well which is it Razor, which set of chops was just SO AWFUL that it ruined an entire match for you? By the way that's far and away the most petty reason I've ever heard for saying a match is bad, ever.

Tell me this. If Cena were to start punching HBK in the chest a lot, and HBK was all "Holy fuck, this hurts," that would be good selling, right? What if Cena started getting weaker? Say, Cena was getting tired. What if HBK were selling Cena's weaker punches as if they were just as strong as the first, vicious string of punches? That's right, it wouldn't make any sense and everyone would probably shit on Cena for poor punches before they shit on HBK for shitty selling. But still, my point stands.

Here's a concept for you that you should probably understand: That first set of chops hurt Samoa Joe so much that he began to get weaker. And when you get weaker, it becomes easier to hurt you. So when Kobashi's chops are getting weaker, Joe is still in a ton of pain because he's had a grand total of 20+ chops laid on him and he's totally out of breath.

Again, nothing wrong with his selling. You apparently can't recognize good and bad selling.

 

[GrandSword]

To those who don't know too much about RoH or their fans... Kenta Kobashi is their God. He is more over to them than Hulk Hogan is. Then there is Samoa Joe, RoH's greatest Champion. He held their World title for over 2 years. So when they started chanting this is awesome it's exactly what you saw at Wrestlemania when it was Rock vs Hogan when they were just staring at ecah other and the fans were going nuts.

The fans were marking out and could not believe they were about to witness an absolute dream match for them.

As far as the match goes. It is brilliant and even with the wear and tear on Kobashi's body he pulled out what Meltzer calls a 5 star match

 

[theviolentmessiah]

well I've seen this match a hundred times so I'm not going to watch it again but a few points. Even Mr Eko has made a slight mistake on ROH here, at this period of time in ROH there were not count outs, count outs weren't brought in till 2009 with the 20 count, at this period and all previous ROH shows there had been no count and just a DQ when the ref though there was too much abusing of the outside of the ring and its envinronment, but obviously no ref would DQ finish this dream match.

Also, not knowing about the streamers, what the hell? They throw streamers at Danielson and McGuinness in ROH because they are treating them with similar respect as japanese legends and assuming that wrestling fans would know about japanese wrestling history and culture, especially people on a wrestling forum.


This match is much better than anything I've seen in WWE ever and you've said something disgusting things to try and pick apart this great display of passion. I can't say how much you know of ROH otherwise, or anything else but this match does come at least 4 and a half stars.

 

[SteveAustinsucks]

LOL, i dont care about Meltzers rating, ive met him once in a cafeteria. Its funny how he doesnt gave the Otani Vs Liger matches a 5* rating. Every Liger Vs Otani match is a treat.


I watched the Kobashi Vs Joe match once. It was pretty good, but really, Kobashi carried Joe in this match. It was a good match, but not one of the best of all time.

 

[The Bearded One]

This may be the most over rated match in history. Is it a good match? Yes. I enjoyed watching it and outside of the 100 chops in the corner I didn't have a problem with it. But is it as great as everyone makes it out to be? Not even close. It may be because I missed the build up to it so that may change my opinion, but the match itself was just a good match, nothing more or less.

Now on to the famous part of the match, the chops in the corner. Why wouldn't Joe just stop them? All he would have to do is lift his arms in from of his chest and guess what, he's not getting slapped anymore. I can understand maybe 10 chops, because Joe could have been taken off guard, but upwards of 100? Just rediculous.

 

[jmt225]

No bullshit, I actually watched this match again about 2 weeks ago... and I found it to be as enjoyable as the first time around.

This match is easily 5 stars, or an A+, or whatever best grade you can give a match, if my book. It's just surreal watching it.

Listen, I know the crowd makes the match better than it probably should be. Had the match took place in Japan where there would have been nowhere near as much enthusiasm from the fans, would I still love it as much as I do? Probably not, but who cares? At the end of the day, wrestling is about the fans, and this match here pleased the fans more than any match I've ever seen. Those motherfuckers couldn't have been more into it, and it's just awesome to witness.

As far as the match itself... it's entertaining as fuck. The open slap at the very beginning, to the brutal chop that followed, to Joe then knocking Kobashi out of the ring and doing a suicide dive.... honestly, the start of this match is the greatest start to any match I've ever seen. It's so fucking awesome. And of course, the rest is filled with brutal chops and power moves... but fuck, why wouldn't I enjoy that? It's fun as shit to watch, and it makes you sit there in disbelief that the wrestlers could go on for 30 minutes taking that kind of punishment.

So, yeah... I love the fuck out of this match, and always will. I'm a very open-minded person, but I just don't understand how any wrestling fan doesn't feel the same way as I do when it comes this match. Seriously, what more could you ever want from a professional wrestling match than what Joe and Kobashi gave you that night? I can't think of nothing...

 

[The Man They Call WMD]

After reading Samoa Joes wiki I decided to watch a match the Meltzer listed as a 5 star match. It was Samoa Joe was Kenta Kobashi in 2005. Here is the match

[YOUTUBE]IiZu6SO-IkE&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]MsL6UXYTKpY&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

I enjoyed the match, and especially loved the atmosphere. How ever I don't see why the match is rated so highly. I felt as if Kenta did nothing then just slap Joe. I just don't understand what is so good about the match. IMO the last 3 taker WM were much better then this match.

My question is compared to other ROH matches whats so great about this match?
Am I missing something?
I understand a rating system is undoubtedly flawed but what are your thoughts on this match and a 5 star rating?

 

[X]

Oddly enough we've actually had this debate before, and I went into extreme detail in my analysis and explanation of why that match is so good. I don't think it's ***** personally, more along the lines of ****1/4-****1/2 for me personally, but it is awesome (IMO).

I'm just going to merge your post into the old thread.

 

[The Man They Call WMD]

No prob with the merge I was looking forward to your opinion on it. It just wasn't what I was expecting from a ROH match. It barely had wrestling, just a case of slap boxing. When I read through the thread it appeared as if a lot of people also held my opinion. I don't want to appear as if I didn't enjoy the match, it just wasn't 5 star material IMO.