Round 7: Ferbian -vs- Riaku

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2010' started by Phoenix, Sep 12, 2010.

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  1. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

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    Which wrestler is the better asset to the Professional Wrestling World, Stan Hansen or Rob Van Dam?

    This is a seventh round match in the Debater's League. Ferbian is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate they will be on and who debates first, but they have 24 hours to make their choice.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck.​
     
  2. Ferbian

    Ferbian Has Returned.

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    I'll debate that Stan Hansen was the better asset. And I'll go first.
     
  3. Ferbian

    Ferbian Has Returned.

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    I have to debate why Stan Hansen is the better asset to the professional wrestling world. And I plan on proving to you all why this is.

    Legitimacy

    Stan Hansen was thoroughly known for being a stiff striker, a stiff worker in general. I often said that his Lariats were stiff as fuck when I watched in on Youtube for the Wrestlezone Tournament to debate for / against the guy.

    And that is pretty much something that has helped professional wrestling. The business has always had some kind of suffering from "That's fake!!" and people not believing in the thing going on. Stiff striking may be fucked up for some of his opponents, but I'm certain a lot of them with the ability to sell nicely and take a bump can compensate their bodies for the stiff striking of Stan Hansen.

    Move set

    Let's be real. Stan Hansen was hardly the best build wrestler in the world. He was more or less a fat guy so to say. But he was still athletic in the ring, a brawler and able to move around. Certainly there have been other situations of this before, however it helped show-case that not all people need to be big athletic ones to work in the professional wrestling business.

    Of course, you also have to remember that this is the guy that invented the lariat. A move that is widely used in professional wrestling today. Without Stan Hansen, who knows, we might never have had the lariat in the move set of professional wrestlers, and let's be real, the lariat is pretty essential in matches, especially against John Cena (Evading the lariat / clothesline into a jumping shoulder-block).

    John Bradshaw Layfield

    Yep, trained by Stan Hansen. His finisher is even the same. Would you not say that's an important attribute that Stan Hansen gave to professional wrestling? He gave us one of the better heels of the 00's, as well as one of the better characters from 2004 and onwards. JBL was an overall great wrestler (Not necessarily in the ring, but character and gimmick wise). He was worth watching, and he drew heat, as well as a good reaction as a part of the APA.

    Bradshaw used the lariat as a tribute to Stan Hansen, which also brings a bit of influence to the business in terms of continuing to use the move to memorize the wrestler, as well as keep the legacy going. Especially considering JBL was very much alike Stan Hansen in terms of in-ring movement and the stiffness of his lariats. Only difference is that JBL's opponents were small high flying fucks that flipped inside out during his lariats, Stan Hansen took them down cold.

    Japan

    While Stan Hansen has a lot of NWA based belts, Stan was over as hell in Japan. This guy was pretty much a sort of main event stay in Japan, getting to wrestle with big name guys like Inoki, and various other Japanese as well as American based wrestlers who worked matches in Japan. He wrestled Hulk Hogan in the super-show in the Tokyo Dome, selling out the place as a replacement for the AJPW Triple Crown Champion Terry Gordy, because Terry wouldn't job to Hogan. Stan Hansen would, which shows that he is also a reliable guy to put in matches with others.

    Overall

    Overall Stan Hansen has influenced wrestling in terms of influencing move-set, influencing wrestling, influencing the future and ultimately to bring a lot of popularity to Japanese wrestling.

    Stan Hansen is generally just a better asset to the business than Rob Van Dam.
     
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  4. ABMorales787

    ABMorales787 Lord And Master
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    Well here we go. Why do I believe Rob Van Dam is a better asset to pro wrestling than Stan Hansen. Very well. Lariat would kill me if he were here. Good luck to Ferbian.

    ======================
    Opening Statement
    ======================

    Rob Van Dam is currently signed to TNA Wrestling and is billed as a former 3 time World Champion. Winning the WWE Championship and holding it alongside the WWE incarnation of ECW's World Championship (Only Rob Van Dam was billed as ECW "World" Champion with the reign considered a legit world title reign). He is aged at 39 and has competed in every major american wrestling company of the past 15 years. He has been named by many one of the most innovative high flyer's in pro wrestling. He has been a borderline main event guy since his days as ECW TV Champion back in the late '90's. On to facts now.

    Recognition

    When you think ECW or think high flying pro wrestling one of the first name's to spring in people's mind is Rob Van Dam. "The Whole F'N Show" has grown to be a well known figure in wrestling due to his in ring style. His matches with Sabu and Jerry Lynn are some the most fondest of feuds in the history of ECW. In this day, if you know pro wrestling, you know Rob Van Dam. Can't say that about Stan Hansen.

    Reliable

    He may have his bad tendencies, but when it comes to ring work, he is always one to count when you want a good match and to attract fans. If you want to build up a superstar and need somebody to put him over, Rob Van Dam can do it. He's done a great work with putting over a few guys in his day. Most notably Randy Orton on a few occasions. If it were Stan Hansen, he'd probably put him on the shelf by working stiff. Rob Van Dam can also play flagship. Meaning he can be a leading man and a World Champion. The last days of ECW can be synonymous with the rise of RVD. The man was pretty much the highlight of the company with the ECW TV Title at hand with his feuds with Sabu, Jerry Lynn and Bam Bam Bigelow. We can also go with his recent work in TNA. Being it's World Champion for several months. Stan Hansen, has had a few booking problems.

    Name Value

    It's easy. He has been one of the most sought after talents of the last few years. WWE was quick to get him once ECW went down and we know just how bad TNA wanted him. WWE always has open doors for him. He is easily welcomed in any organization. Stan Hansen wasn't too welcomed in WWF after breaking Bruno Sammartino's neck.

    Now on to Ferbian's post...

    Considering how open society has been about injuries in sports especially pro wrestling, I doubt this is a good thing. This only fuels the political dislike of the art. "So real, it's neck breaking" really isn't a good image to express to mainstream society. Especially with delicate things like the Benoit family massacre and all the young deaths that plague pro wrestling.

    Rob Van Dam is the epitome of innovation back in the early 2000's. His style was a huge attraction back in the "bingo hall". He was more than just one stiff clothesline. His stuff is so unique, you'll never see anybody trying out a Van-Assasinator or a Van-Daminator. I barely people able to just tretch their legs like RVD. When it comes to a move set, RVD will win every time here.

    What does JBL have to do with this? Did Stan Hansen teach JBL how to be an asshole on the mic too? Did he teach him how to lie down for Joey Styles? Jose Lothario trained Shawn Michaels. Who was he? Just another wrestler. The trainer doesn't really matter. Nor does it matter that you trained a modern great. Stu Hart needed to have Canada's largest promotion and be responsable for the rise of about 15 notable names to have any recognition in U.S.

    This is like that David Hasslehoff is big in Germany argument. Doesn't change the fact that people see him as a bloated egomaniac everywhere else. See, while Stan Hansen might be huge and somewhat known in the U.S., RVD, is big everywhere. Where it matters. Worldwide notoriety is bigger than being huge in Japan.
     
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  5. Ferbian

    Ferbian Has Returned.

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    [QUOTE="iMPACT! Player" Riaku;2426082]Rob Van Dam is currently signed to TNA Wrestling and is billed as a former 3 time World Champion. Winning the WWE Championship and holding it alongside the WWE incarnation of ECW's World Championship (Only Rob Van Dam was billed as ECW "World" Champion with the reign considered a legit world title reign). He is aged at 39 and has competed in every major american wrestling company of the past 15 years. He has been named by many one of the most innovative high flyer's in pro wrestling. He has been a borderline main event guy since his days as ECW TV Champion back in the late '90's. On to facts now.[/QUOTE]

    A lot of these things can be said about Stan Hansen, and perhaps even done better as well. Let's have a look shall we?

    Stan Hansen is a 4 times AJPW Triple Crown Champion, which is pretty much the AJPW world title. He's an AWA world champion, which is also considered a world title. So generally Stan Hansen has been awarded more world titles than RVD, in an era where world titles were something hard to archive. Rob Van Dam worked for what was pretty much his era's AWA, the 3rd rank promotion, which is what Stan Hansen did as well. While also working for the second (At some period of the time biggest) promotion in the world, the AWA. Where he is a highly accomplished wrestler, both through ties with Japan, as well as generally wrestling in America.

    Generally Stan Hansen, in an era where title reigns were something you didn't just get handed, have a large range of more titles with a wide recognition around the world (As in, not independent promotion titles that nobody ever heard about, sure he has some of those, but his resume is dominated by NWA titles).

    Stan worked for the business in 27 years where he constantly contributed to various promotions, by giving them matches worth remembering, as well as title reigns from a legit tough guy. Yes this is the very guy that injured Big Vaders eye during a match.

    Also, when you think ECW there's certainly other names that the general ECW fan would definitely throw in front of Rob Van Dam. Names like Taz, Sandman, Sabu and Terry Funk, all guys who generally revolutionized ECW more than Rob Van Dam could ever consider himself a revolutionizer. Rob was hardly half the hardcore wrestler that any of these guys were. He barely fitted into the whole deal.

    High flying, now that's another thing. But that depends from what era you're from, or what preferences you have. Current era, there might be some thinking of Rob Van Dam, but there's certainly a handful of people thinking Jeff Hardy and Rey Mysterio as well.

    5-10 years ago, yep Rey Mysterio and Jeff Hardy were still on people's mind, RVD might also have been, but I would primarily think Rey Mysterio all the way through the past 10 years, hardly RVD. Not really a great deal of asset to contribute to RVD, if there's someone better available am I right?

    Also, people fade. Eventually RVD will be long forgotten in professional wrestling, like Stan Hansen is but a memory to people because, mostly because of the lack of exposure with Japanese wrestling in America and around the world, as well as the "death" of NWA. Had any of these still shined around the world, Stan Hansen would be long remembered. And I'm certain a lot of the wrestlers remember Stan Hansen for his work in Japan, when they were around, some might even have idolized him. Like I mentioned, Stan was fucking huge in Japan.

    The same can be said about Stan Hansen, who have generally for a brawler and a tough guy rather than a technical superchild, Stan has always delivered. He delivered both in the ring, as well as backstage when he stepped up where it was needed, like I mentioned - Hulk Hogan.

    Stan Hansen is a reliable guy in terms that he is loyal as well. He stuck around when Misawa started focusing on Japanese wrestlers and less on foreign wrestlers, which caused a lot of people to start defecting to NJPW rather than AJPW, where Stan Hansen stuck around.

    However RVD has his points where he lacks the reliability that would be required of a true company man. RVD is a junkie for one, which can cause him to become inconsistent at times. Sure he still manages to perform, and he only smokes marijuana, but I could imagine that must have some kind of effect on your brain eventually.

    Also, RVD left the business to take care of his wife, sure hats off to that. But did he return to WWE who gave him all of these years of credit? No, he screwed them over and went to TNA. Hardly the guy to trust would you not say so?

    Besides, RVD has the X amount of days contract, hardly a thing to praise the guy for. Sure he's getting a little older, he'd have a harder time to work all the time because of his body. Well, Stan Hansen made it work did he not? He retired in 2000 as 50-51 years old, having wrestled in Japan for the majority of his career, a loyal company man.

    One of the most sought after perhaps. But that doesn't mean that he is always generally worth the paycheck as well as the draw that he is made out to be. Rob Van Dam might be popular and be all someone we want to watch. However he is hardly that entertaining in anything but the ring, where I never truly found a liking to the guy for example.

    However, Stan Hansen who has generally for the majority of his life been incredibly over in Japan for his legitimate in-ring brawling style, as well as his finisher became respected as hell, to the point where the commentators would be all "LARIATO".

    [YOUTUBE]aRuUXM-WbSo[/YOUTUBE]

    Listen to that guy. He practically jizzed himself.

    True, I can agree with it being hardly a good thing. However Stan Hansen were wrestling back in the days where people were pretty tough. Besides his moves were still professional and it was pretty much just his strikes there were completely legit. Hardly something you could regard as hurting of the fact that Stan Hansen is a asset to the business in regards as being known for being a great stiff wrestler who obviously furthered the legitimacy of wrestling.

    Sure some of his hardcore / slightly innovative things were unique. But generally he was hardly an innovative wrestler with exception of perhaps that, which pretty much leaves him to the point where he simply innovated a hardcore move, Stan Hansen innovated a generally used move to this day.

    Besides, Stan Hansen were hardly lost in the ring, he was pretty much able to move for his size, which is definitely something to take your hat off for (Or my hat, whatever you want to call it).

    [YOUTUBE]ID84LyJZ7xQ[/YOUTUBE]

    You're gonna tell me that's not a good asset to professional wrestling? A guy his size, and build able to move quickly and with grace like some of the 90's athletic guys? (I generally haven't seen many of the DDT's that Stan Hansen used there, with exception of The Rock)

    Considering it's about biggest asset and influence on the business. I would say JBL have a part in the whole deal considering he trained JBL and gave him his finisher to carry on the legacy.

    JBL has a lot of the move-set and in-ring knowledge that Stan Hansen has generally used throughout his career, something that has helped JBL to transit, especially considering JBL's gimmick could be considered somewhat revolving around Stan Hansen, both being cowboys (JBL being rich, Stan Hansen being just a Cowboyish character)

    RVD wrestles in a period where wrestling is definitely more world wide. Stan Hansen wrestled in a period where professional wrestling were very territorial, where as Japan was generally just one big exposed place. Stan Hansen were hugely over there, and selling out stadiums as a very over heel, who actually got the crowd behind him. He wrestled big names over there, very big names, like Flair and Hogan. Tell me, who have RVD wrestled of big names? John Cena? sure, but hardly worth it compared to Flair and Hogan in the 80's.
     
  6. ABMorales787

    ABMorales787 Lord And Master
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    I'm pretty sure being a Double World Champion in the leading pro wrestling company in history trumps that. Especially when he was the only Double World Champion as opposed to being Unified. Not only that, but the fact he did it in WWE, a company well known for shunning "outside talent", lets you know just how big he got at one point. AJPW may be big, but WWE is bigger.
    Fair enough. RVD has lots of titles as well. He is remembered for being ECW TV Champion for two years in an era where title were tossed around like toys. Not to mention that he unified several title's into the Intercontinental Championship in 2002 and is also the only Double World Champion in WWE's history. He also won the TNA World Championship only a month removed from his TV debut. Not even Kurt Angle, TNA's top acquisition won it in such a short time.

    Yet his name isn't really one to spring into people's mind's as easily as RVD's. If you want an asset, you want a guy with recognition and reliability. Stan isn't as recognizable as RVD and the fact that he has a tendency to injure workers makes him even less of an asset and more of a hazard.

    Terry Funk was a recognizable figure long before he came to ECW. Out of all the other guys you listed, who became a world renowned World Champion in larger promotions? Any?

    Doesn't change the fact that his name springs up quick. You really can't name anything about Stan that made him unique other than the Lariat.
    But you stil admit that RVD is a prominent name.
    ECW has been legit dead for 10 years. People remember it quite fondly to this day. And unlike Stan, Rob's legacy expands beyond that of Japan, AWA or NWA. He is a man who stood out in ECW, WWE, TNA, had brief a brief stints in WCW, Europe's NWE and Japan's AJPW and IGF. See. World renowned.
    True. Let me mention "AWA". And all the trouble he caused leading to his departure of the company. He no-showed a title match against Nick Bockwinkle, mishandled Greg Gagne and refused to give up the World Championship after being stripped of it and almost drove Verne Gagne into pressing charges.

    Now I ask, has Rob Van Dam ever driven anybody into legal actions? If you want an asset to pro wrestling, a guy who causes legal issues cannot be much of an asset.
    Yet he caused problems in the AWA, like I pointed out and had the reputation of being stiff, often leading to injured wrestlers. Glad he stuck to All Japan and all, but does putting the other workers that stood by at risk really help?
    So RVD smokes pot. At least it's because of a belief as oppsed to doing it for the hell of it. You also said he works well in the ring. Thanks. Stan on the other hand, hurts other people rather than himself.

    How's that screwing them over? he picked a company with a lighter schedule to attend to his wife. Not to mention that he's been open about WWE being "open armed" for him. Stan on the other hand, left AWA, the company that gave him fame in the U.S., by trying to leave with their World title and refusing to work on occasion. Not much of an asset there was he?
    So because TNA decided to use that it's a bad thing? It's preliminary contract. To my understanding most on air TNA talent get it first before a long term one. Rob Van Dam is 39 and still wrestling. All over the world.
    A feature to an asset. Thank you. People always want him. Stan, on the other hand, well Verne isn't pleased with the guy. God rest his soul.
    Rob Van Dam is incredibly over everywhere. Not just Japan. You've got your infamous "Lariato". I'll give you that. I've got "ROB! VAN! *spin kick* DAM!". I don't think there's been a more catchy intro. Not to mention how the TNA fan's sing to his theme. "ROB VAN DAM! The Whole F'N Show!". But then again, being remembered for a Japanese guy saying your finisher in a goofy fashion really shouldn't be your highlight.
    He's a one move wonder. RVD? Not so much. Let's go to the highlight reel:
    [youtube]2i-sRAdk7YE[/youtube]
    Damn! That was awesome.
    With how delicate the subject of heath in sports is nowadays, I wouldn't take my changes. Making RVD a more reliable asset.

    Stan wasn't innovative. he just hitted you harder. And if you really think RVD wasn't innovative... Let's go to the second highlight reel:
    [youtube]ogsrwBf22sw&feature=related[/youtube]
    Wow. That was about as basic as anybody there. Some of the most basic maneuvers out there. When you want an asset, you want an attraction. Not basic work. I don't care how effective he did them. Unless he has the mic skills to back that moveset, I see no attraction in him.

    Um... A fast DDT. Triple H does those all the time. It's still basic and unimpressive.

    Yet I remember JBL for being a rich asshole and not for the Clothesline.
    Yet when was JBL seen as a big asset? When he shaved the cowboy attitude and became a millionaire. And let's face it. He was never remembered for his ring work. And on time's, it was frowned upon.


    Yet Flair and Hogan got huge worldwide. Stan stayed in Japan. Hulk, Flair, the Funks, Randy Savage, Andre The Giant and other guys became huge worldwide in that era. Why didn't Hansen? Because he wasn't seen as much of an asset. RVD was and still is a big asset in pro wrestling.
     
  7. Ferbian

    Ferbian Has Returned.

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    [QUOTE="iMPACT! Player" Riaku;2428822]I'm pretty sure being a Double World Champion in the leading pro wrestling company in history trumps that. Especially when he was the only Double World Champion as opposed to being Unified. Not only that, but the fact he did it in WWE, a company well known for shunning "outside talent", lets you know just how big he got at one point. AJPW may be big, but WWE is bigger.[/QUOTE]

    Certainly that's a big deal. I agree with that. However it doesn't make him any more influential, or a worthwhile asset when it comes to professional wrestling. RVD when he was champion was hardly a draw, he was just over due to flippies, hardly a guy you want to work your programming around. Which is why he lost the belts so quickly again as well.

    Stan Hansen however, while he might not have been as generally hugely over all around the world, is however without a doubt a huge asset to Japanese wrestling, where he was in fact a good draw.

    But not as many championships as Stan Hansen held. Stan Hansen have held quite a handful of championships throughout his career, and I'm certain some of them have contested with the popularity and the memories left behind like RVD did with his ECW TV championship.

    Certainly RVD has his resume of accomplishing things in terms of unifying and to accomplish something that quite a bunch of people of high standards haven't even been able to do. However Stan Hansen could compete with those things as well. Let's have a look at the primary ones:

    Stan Hansen is the only wrestler who can lay claim to pinning both Antonio Inoki and Giant Baba in championship singles matches. As well as Stan Hansen was the one to break the 523 days record long United States Championship reign back in 1990.

    Oh and let's not forget that Stan Hansen is also a very accomplished tag team wrestler. Having held numerous NWA and AJPW tag team championships, as well as competing numerous times in the World Strongest Tag Team League, winning it 4 times.

    Overall, Stan Hansen's career just has more to brag about. And it's not because of championship reigns, no he obviously accomplished things outside of championships, like above mentioned World Strongest Tag Team League, Champion's Carnival 2 times, January 2nd Korakuen Hall Heavyweight Battle Royal (Yep, I copy pasted that one, too long to write out).

    Also, not to forget the fact that he has been given 2 5 star match ratings by Dave Metzler. Sure, we know he has a hard-on for Japanese wrestling, but we also know that a 5 star match is something highly regarded to anybody.

    That's because he worked in a promotion which had very little exposure compared to where RVD worked. Doesn't necessarily mean that he wouldn't be a better asset. Especially considering the small promotion he worked in, was still generally known and the long list of great workers that h ave come from AJPW and NJPW are also highly regarded.

    Also, Stan worked in an era where wrestling weren't as highly exposed. Sure it was through WWF in the 80's but that was hardly an accomplished feature by any of the other promotions. And of course we could rant on about how he was champion in the NWA, which was exposed as well, but we both know it was hardly as exposed as the wrestling machine that was WWF in the 80's.

    Yes Terry was recognizable before that. But it also adds to him being a bigger name than RVD. Also while none of the other ECW originals were truly a world champion in some other promotion than ECW, that doesn't mean that you think of RVD when you think of ECW. You think of Taz, Sabu, Sandman and Terry Funk primarily. Especially considering those were the primary people that tore the house down every time they went out there. They were the people that truly put their bodies on the line.

    And yes I know RVD still put his body on the line. However I would hardly say that he put his body on the line in the same aspect that Sabu fucked up his body, how Terry tore his body apart in ECW, and Taz who pretty much retired himself through ECW.

    There's a lot of things that could hardly be said was made unique by a lot of wrestlers around the world. Hardly enough to make them less of an asset right? For example, what did Hogan make unique? He brought wrestling to a mainstream, but it was hardly something worth calling unique. But we still call him one hell of an asset right?

    And of course I'll admit that RVD is a prominent name. To say otherwise is just being in denial. However it doesn't mean that RVD is the most prominent name of these two, because that would be wrong.

    Yet Stan Hansen still left more than enough of a mark in professional wrestling to most definitely be a remembered name in Japan (It's hard to check, but I'm sure it's true). As well as Stan Hansen has the honor of being a part of 2 hall of fames. One being a "lesser" Hall of Fame in the Wrestling Observer Newsletter, and the other one being the Professional Wrestling Hall of Fame, where he shares the spotlight with the likes of Inoki, Ric Flair, Roddy Piper, Dusty Rhodes (Who he were inducted alongside with in 2010) and many more legends of the business.

    And, what does RVD have? He's not even in the Wrestling Observer Newsletter Hall of Fame. Why would we want to remember the guy in 20 years then if he couldn't even make it into a wrestling magazine Hall of Fame? RVD probably won't even be inducted into a real Hall of Fame.

    Which he then later on expressed deep regrets of, and ended up complimenting Gagne. Which shows remorse and conscience. Certainly something that would mean, that if he were wrestling today. He would be an asset because he learned from his mistakes.

    That's because RVD has been lucky. Would you rather have a wrestler who did something that brought you to the limit (Which many wrestlers have the history of being able to do with Vince for one). Or would you have a guy that could pretty much be pressed legal charges against, as well as get arrested for drugs? I don't believe marijuana is legal, am I right?

    He hardly put them to a risk with anything but stiff punches really. And the only one who he has any remote worthwhile history of hurting is Vader, who we all know was one hell of a tough ass who could handle that.

    RVD's pot smoking could easily bring damage to the business as well if publically exposed to the extend that it is pressed legal charges. Remember Jeff Hardy? You should.

    Stan Hansen hardly has a history of hurting people, he still wrestled in the ring and kept it professional. Like I mentioned, Vader is the only one who is generally named as being hurt by Stan. I'm sure RVD has hurt someone during their career, it's rare that someone goes completely clean.

    Obviously he screwed over the guys that gave him his place to work on. Yes he picked a company where he could get less time, but still had to get taken off the air due to his amount of contract days running low. How is that not a critical hit against the company, which hurts his assessment due to it? RVD we all know is somewhat of an attraction in TNA, but he still chooses to hold tight to his damned contract so he can sit back and benefit himself? What a bullshit life policy wouldn't you say?

    Stan Hansen, however after going to Japan went on to work matches he weren't even scheduled in, for the sake of the promotion and the match. He became the loyal worker that any man would love to have in his promotion. He jobbed to who he was told to job to, and he exchanged belts back and forth with the big names of the promotion. Oh boy what a horrific thing of him to do!! :(

    But that's where Stan Hansen gets the upper hand. He worked regular schedules up till the age of 51. See the difference? 12 years in the business extra. Stan Hansen worked in the business for 27 years before he stopped. RVD was has been in the business for 20 years, with about 3 years of a hiatus where he hardly did a thing other than a Internet show, and the guy needs a break?.... :disappointed: Yes, I did that.

    Obviously you didn't read about the apology he gave the guy, and the compliments?

    Besides, RVD being requested hardly makes him a bigger asset in terms of being influential on the business and bringing something to professional wrestling that few others could or ever will be able to. RVD is nothing but a high flying spot monkey with the ability to draw a few 0.1 - 0.2 ratings in, is he not? I wonder how Stan Hansen would've done in this era? JBL was pretty popular, we've already addressed where JBL came from have we not?

    Problem is that the Rob Van Dam thing really was a self build thing from RVD, rather than something that was simply gotten over through Lariat's actions. Rob Van Dam was pretty much his catchphrase, Stan Hansen's lariat were his finisher.

    Besides, the goofy Japanese announcer was hardly Stan Hansen's highlight. The finisher in itself became one of his high lights, which is something that a lot of wrestlers should aspire to, but a merely a handful of wrestlers can truly say they achieved. Rob Van Dam's finisher were hardly one that the crowd truly popped for. The crowd popped like mad for the lariat.

    Excuse me? What? I couldn't hear you from the sound of my own snoring. Rob Van Dam truly never struck me as that much of an interesting wrestler. He was a high flying spot monkey, and hardly a good one at that. There's definitely better high flyers who have the ability to showcase themselves much better, and get a better pop. Rob Van Dam is a mid-card mediocre spot monkey at best.


    Depends on how you look at it. While you would expect RVD to be in a point of his career, or generally just an educated wrestler enough to don't fuck up with his moves. He still wrestles a style that does leave the opening for screw-ups if the opponent, or RVD himself doesn't position properly. Stan Hansen doesn't have that, the poor guy just had problems seeing without his glasses.

    Please, do tell me how Stan Hansen bringing the lariat to new heights wasn't innovative? How being a hard hitter in a time where legitimacy was highly regarded in wrestling, isn't something to take your hat off for?

    Besides, sometimes a generic wrestler so to say, can be considered one of the better ones. It depends on how the match is played out, and how well the moves are performed, alongside with keeping the crowd interested. Stan Hansen managed to do all of these things to a T. John Cena is quite an asset to professional wrestling is he not? He is a pretty basic wrestler as well.

    Certainly haven't seen that for ages. Still for a guy his size, and build it's at least something to take notice to.

    You obviously forgot that the cowboy attitude stuck around with the birth of JBL away from the generic bar brawling Texan did you not? I sure hope you did. Cowboy like entrance, Bull horns on his limousine, and cowboy hat.

    Also, JBL was a very over heel during that time. He got a great reaction, and was generally just a great heel. Guess who were a great heel with a great reaction as well? Oh I can see it right on your tongue dude. Yep that's right, Stan Hansen.

    Flair and Hogan weren't 100% loyal wrestlers either. They went with the money obviously. Stan Hansen stayed loyal to Giant Baba in AJPW. Certainly something I would prize higher than someone who would screw me over for a few thousand dollars extra a month or so (Pushing it short I know, but I don't have the Flair / Hogan paychecks for their careers..)

    Besides, there's nowhere that we know that Stan didn't have the opportunity to go onto WCW or WWF. Especially considering the fact that he actually worked a bit with WCW through his Japan career in connecting ties with NWA (See above, United States championship reign that ended Lugers long reign).
     
  8. ABMorales787

    ABMorales787 Lord And Master
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    Again with Japan. Thing is, while Stan was a major draw in Japan, RVD was a major draw everywhere. Stan Hansen was voted the most hated (meaning heel) wrestler of 1976. That's a big deal to be called the most hated heel. After that win... Never seen again. He was the biggest heat magnet for one year. After that, not even third runner up. As for RVD, he was voted the most popular wrestler (meaning biggest face) in both 2001 and 2002. He was runner up in 2000 and second runner up in 2003. That mean's he was seen as a bigger face than Stan was seen as a heel.

    It's not the amount of championships or the length of the reign that count. If you don't believe me, let's ask ourselves something a bit off subject first. Who was a better first time World Champion? Edge or Chris Jericho? CM Punk or The Giant? Mankind or Jeff Jarrett? You get the point.

    Too bad Inoki and Baba don't have world wide fame. As opposed to one John Cena or one Chris Jericho.
    RVD has won Tag Team titles with Sabu, Kane, Booker T and Rey Mysterio. Totalling for 5 Tag Team championships.
    What? Never heard of those. A bit of a communication issue.

    RVD ranked #1 on the 2002 PWI Top 500, he was voted most popular in both 2001 and 2002 as well as having "biggest comeback" in 2001. An award I'm sure he could secure this year. Not to mention his match with John Cena at ONS '06 was voted match of the year by Pro Wrestling Report.
    Name value always springs into mind. Not to mention that just because a wrestler works at a certain place, doesn't always make them big. Chris Jericho may have a stint in NJPW, but then again so has Tomko.
    While Stan was obscured in Japan, the likes of Hulk Hogan, Randy Savage, Roddy Piper and others were getting world wide exposure. That makes them be seen as larger assets. Just like Rob Van Dam.

    Yet Rob was still the only one to break out and be seen as an asset in a larger plateau. That doesn't change.
    When there is something about them that makes them stand out, it makes them huge assets.
    The fact that he bled charisma.
    He still bleeds the same level of charisma. He didn't just casually bring wrestling to the mainstream, you know.
    Well it's my job to prove it right.
    RVd hasn't been wrestling for that long. Even so, people today see him as a bigger attraction than lots of Hall Of Famer's. You never know if RVD also ends up in those Hall Of Fame's.

    You're jumping the gun here. Unlike Stan Hansen who retired after almost 25, RVD has been active for about 15. Although RVD has been voted most popular two years running. As opposed to Stan's one year as "most hated".

    Too late. he did the mistakes already.

    No. But then again, he didn't threaten the company.
    What about Samartino? WWE's then flagship wrestler. Broke his neck, didn't he?

    Yup. People stopped caring about Hardy's case a while ago. Even so, it didn't put the WWE's title in jeopardy because he always showed up in fitting condition to wrestle.
    Stiff styles are not favorable in the locker room. You know Bruiser Brody, right? He was a stiff wrestler as well. Because of it, he drew the ire of the Capital Sports (WWC) locker room. It resulted in his murder. Nobody gave a damn about the man. This was a company at the time built on hardcore wrestling. That meant flaming tables, barbed wire and all of that stuff. Yet they weren't happy with how Brody, Stan's long time partner, treated them. I wouldn't bring a guy into a company knowing he wouldn't be welcomed. RVD never had those problems. he was always liked.

    That's TNA's fault for not managing RVD's dates properly. I fail to see how RVD is the aggressor here.
    Ha ha! Sarcasm. Loving every bit of it. But


    Well jeez, let me see here, when your style is more exhausting and you are working for about 300 days with small break and having a bad knee injury and a wife with cancer... 3 years actually seems like too little. Especially when you had a few indy booking during that break.
    Umm... Yes it does. You are wanted. You are seen as a larger asset.
    On world wide TV. Stan Hansen? Only in Japan.

    I'm pretty sure Stan wouldn't look good playing a rich Wall Street asshole.

    You saw the highlight videos. RVD was not a one hit wonder like Stan Hansen.
    That's because the crowd was exhausted from popping for RVD's other moves.

    Can't find one who was a two time "most popular" or a PWI 500's #1.

    Thus making him bland and simplistic. Not too attractive, really.

    Because he wasn't the only one doing them. Just how memorable are Vader's Moonsaults? The guy is over 300 pounds, he does the flips, that's really gotta hurt, right? Well yeah. But just how memorable are they? Stone Cold's Stunner is a bigger memory and it isn't even painful at all.

    Yup. Who also has a lot of charisma. Which is what attracts the crowd. Are there any memorable Stan Hansen promo's out there? Nope.
    He's still a Wall Street prick. The aspect that got him over.
    JBL got hated world wide because he was an asshole and because after while his run was getting negavite reactions and dislike. A term referred to as "X-Pac" heat. A big no-no. He also portrayed numerous roles as a commentator and won the beloved Japanese fan's by running around tranquilized and dropping his pants. Hansen... Very serious dude. Very one dimensional. Not a good aspect to your character.

    Too bad he screwed over Gagne. And there wasn't even money involved.
    He also worked in WWE. A very forgettable run. You didn't even mention it.
     
  9. Ferbian

    Ferbian Has Returned.

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    [QUOTE="iMPACT! Player" Riaku;2431874]Again with Japan. Thing is, while Stan was a major draw in Japan, RVD was a major draw everywhere. Stan Hansen was voted the most hated (meaning heel) wrestler of 1976. That's a big deal to be called the most hated heel. After that win... Never seen again. He was the biggest heat magnet for one year. After that, not even third runner up. As for RVD, he was voted the most popular wrestler (meaning biggest face) in both 2001 and 2002. He was runner up in 2000 and second runner up in 2003. That mean's he was seen as a bigger face than Stan was seen as a heel.[/QUOTE]

    Haven't we often disregarded PWI as being one big pile of bullshit? If so, then of course we should discredit those facts should we not?

    However, I'll play along. Rob Van Dam achieved all of this, however he is hardly regarded highly in the all time list of the PWI years. Let's see where Stan Hansen is ranked.

    Most Hated wrestler in 1976, as well as the 7th best tag team of the PWI years in 2003. Oh and let's not forget, 16th of the 500 best wrestlers in the PWI years. Rob Van Dam? nowhere to be found. Certainly a guy regarded by the promotion that named your guy the most popular, wouldn't shine that well against the 16th greatest wrestler of all time in the timespan from the creation of PWI, till 2003, 1 year after Rob was named the most popular.

    So your choice, let's ignore PWI, or remember Stan Hansen for simply being superior even there?

    However, now a-days professional wrestlers are getting pushed and put over due to the belts. They need to push these guys and do it heavily. Of course they get more title reigns then. When Stan wrestled? The better guy got the belts, it wasn't just one booker with a hard-on for a guy, no it was numerous promotions agreeing to make one guy their champion.

    Inoki does not have world wide fame? Dude, you've got to be shitting me? Giant Baba as well? :lmao:

    Inoki is one of the most well known Japanese wrestlers in the world dude. He worked for WWWF (Before becoming WWF obviously) as well. He is in numerous Hall of Fames, in The United States. How does one accomplish that without being known?

    Also, Giant Baba is regarded as the Japanese equivalent of Hulk Hogan. But I guess that's all bullshit, because Giant Baba is hardly known.. Yep, those 3 times NWA world champion reign sure did nothing for the guys world wide exposure.

    And Stan Hansen has won a total of 23 tag team championships in territorial promotions, as well as AJPW (Being a 8 times AJPW unified world tag team champion) with the likes of Ted DiBiase Sr. Terry Gordy, Bruiser Brody (Who he holds the honor of being regarded as the 7th greatest tag team of all time, and also won a World Strongest Tag Team League win with) and Ole Anderson.

    World Strongest Tag Team League is an annual tag team tournament, obviously to crown the best tag team.

    a 5 star match by Dave Metzler is harder to accomplish than a of the year award by the PWI. Especially considering a lot of people have always wondered what PWI based their claims on, and have often voted from a kayfabe perspective. WON actually awards for good work, not because someone accomplished some stuff kayfabely.

    Besides, Stan Hansen has a PWI match of the year as well against Bruno Sammartino in 1976.

    I do believe Chris Jericho worked Frontier Martial-Arts Wrestling, and never in NJPW.

    Also, I have little understanding how the remainder of this quote has anything to do with the fact that the exposure of the Japanese Wrestling hurt Stan Hansen's world wide exposure, compared to Rob Van Dam who were exposed in a completely different era of mainstream professional wrestling, in the biggest promotion in the world.

    That's one aspect of it. However it takes more than exposure to become a valuable and larger asset. I would hardly call someone a valuable asset purely because of exposure. I'm not sure if you heard of this guy, but Stein Bagger. Danish fraud guy, stole millions from banks through scamming loans. Pretty well exposed guy, hardly a worthy asset.

    However, becoming a valuable and larger asset requires someone to be a good worker as well, loyal to your company, a company man so to say, and many other things than simply being a draw.

    Oh yeah, because Taz didn't break out and became a part of WWF? Taz, who were arguably much more over than Rob Van Dam. Did you remember the sound of Taz' debut? Let me remind you.

    [YOUTUBE]Rdx7g88Bm3g[/YOUTUBE]

    2.20 and onwards. Taz debuted, and kicked Kurt Angle's ass, the undefeated Olympic Goldmedalist got his ass kicked by arguably the most popular ECW wrestler to that point.

    Rob Van Dam's debut?

    [YOUTUBE]futa6afnrJ4[/YOUTUBE]

    Yeah, rather boring is it not? He got to kick poor Jeff Hardy's ass, with little reaction to follow.

    But it doesn't mean that they created anything unique, and therefore became huge assets through that.

    Hardly something unique. You forgot about Flair didn't you?

    Of course he did not. But his charisma was hardly unique, and while it was certainly not something that should be discredited due to the fact that he brought wrestling to the mainstream. There however, still is as much of a fact behind that someone else could've done it as well. Ric Flair was charismatic as fuck as well, and if the guy had actually been a face, he could've easily accomplished that as well, if given the Vince McMahon platform to do it on. Especially considering the fact that Ric was incredibly over even as a heel.

    Rob have been in wrestling for 20 years mate. Should have been more than enough to be inducted into one Hall of Fame of sorts. Especially the WON Hall of Fame, which have Kurt Angle in it, inducted in 2004. He didn't get into wrestling until 1998 (Professional at least). Yep it took him 6 years to be inducted, Rob Van Dam, after 20 still isn't.

    27 and 20. Rob worked casually in the independent scene between 2007 and 2010 before popping his face forth again. Still thoroughly convinced Rob's only chance of being spotted at the Hall of Fame of wrestling, is by visiting.

    And learned from it. Humans doesn't go through life without at least one mistake. Fatal, or non-fatal.

    Because Rob have been lucky enough to avoid the charges. But he could've just as easily been fired by the WWE for drug use. Carlito were.

    Indeed he did. However, that incident have gone on to be used as a promoting stunt to lay claim to the immense power of his lariat. (Silly promoters, it was a body slam that fucked Bruno up. However, hardly something he have botched since)

    Agreed, however Stan Hansen, when wrestling still remained professional as ever. Let's not forget that when he was a troublesome guy, he wasn't wrestling.

    Such a shame that Bruiser Brody was considered one of the most god damn popular wrestlers around his time. Such a shame. Stan Hansen? Not necessarily the most popular wrestler around his time, but Rob Van Dam hardly ever were either (with exception of a lucky 2 wins of most popular, while we both know that Steve Austin and The Rock were still around, and sure as hell much more popular to this day).

    Bruiser Brody was stiff in pretty much everything. Stan Hansen has stiff punches, hardly something that will result in his murder, especially considering he went his entire career without being hurt in that manner.

    Because he wanted the lesser schedule. TNA not managing the dates properly is screwing up in terms of using him in the future. However it was Rob Van Dam who pretty much put the demand of even having a lighter schedule, while I'm convinced the guy could easily work many more days. Kurt Angle works a lot of dates, and he's older than Rob Van Dam, and have suffered a broken neck, which he even worked with in amateur wrestling, including working with a messed up neck at Wrestlemania 19. Therefore Rob, who's body is hardly as damaged as Kurt's, could of course work a busier schedule, however he doesn't. Hardly something to praise.


    While I have no problem with taking care of his wife. I respect that matter of a fact. However that does nothing for the fact that Rob still stayed away from wrestling as well. Who knows what a schedule Stan Hansen had to work under? Especially during the NWA era where wrestlers pretty much had to work all the time to get a proper pay.

    Different eras. Stan Hansen wrestled when Hogan was more than able to draw and wrestle weekly. Making other talents pretty much less needed. Besides, he was still wrestling for the biggest promotion in Japan during his time, was he not? Or second biggest, I forgot whether AJPW or NJPW is the bigger one. Hardly makes a difference though.

    I'm not saying he should. But the basic of the cowboy in terms of JBL vs Stan Hansen is very equal of each other.

    Stan Hansen isn't a one hit wonder either. However, he has his signature moves and most known move in the lariat. Rob Van Dam has his signature moves and most known moves like the Five Star Frog Splash, which Eddie performed much better by the way.

    :lmao: You're shitting me right? The crowd hardly popped for all of his moves. Besides, the crowd manages to pop numerous times throughout a lot of matches. Hardly something to say that caused Rob to get a lesser reaction, especially considering Evan is exciting as well, but still gets a great reaction for his finisher. And Eddie, while performing Rob's finisher better, also gets a better reaction.

    [YOUTUBE]1Sz_dHmry3o[/YOUTUBE]

    Showcases it pretty nicely does it not?

    How about the 2 high flying wrestlers who are without a doubt much more popular than Rob Van Dam - Jeff Hardy and Rey Mysterio. Both who are good draws in WWE, and sold merchandises like madmen. Rob Van Dam did neither.

    The stunner is hardly that memorable compared to the lariat. Especially considering the fact that we've seen both of them pretty much as often as the other. However, the moonsault from Vader, or the Stone Cold Stunner didn't innovate like Stan Hansen's Lariat did.

    Yes the charisma in John Cena is there. However from a move-set stand point he is rather basic. Rob Van Dam doesn't have any memorable promos either, because he was pretty god damn bland on the microphone

    However, Stan Hansen isn't bland on the microphone. The guy has a bit of charisma up his sleeve just as well. Let's demonstrate one of his promos.

    [YOUTUBE]NRCD4hKmy2g[/YOUTUBE]

    Let's watch another one.

    [YOUTUBE]h3MBXBKT-yw[/YOUTUBE]

    Yep, more charismatic than RVD without a doubt.

    Stan Hansen is a memorable guy from a few aspects besides his promos anyway. Let me demonstrate a thing this guy managed to do, that few others can lay claim to.

    [YOUTUBE]GzGSbMIxAz8[/YOUTUBE]


    So you're saying Bradshaw wasn't over in the APA? Bullshit.

    JBL got over as a heel because of being a good heel with a good gimmick. Besides, Stan Hansen was more than over as a heel during his time, if we go back to the first promo video I linked just a little bit above (Stan Hansen & Freddie Blassie Interview). And considering the gimmick was pretty much alike in the cowboy aspect of it, Stan could still get over as hell today, especially with his microphone skills and in-ring toughness.

    How would you know there weren't money involved? He was set to drop the AWA world title, the world champion always gets a bigger pay.

    Because his run in WWF was hardly important for considering him a bigger or smaller asset in professional wrestling. Japan and his NWA ties is where his legacy lies.
     
  10. ABMorales787

    ABMorales787 Lord And Master
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    You're nitpicking for an advantage here. While Stan managed to wrestle his entire 27 years under the PWI Years, Rob only had about 5 years of TV exposed wrestling in that time. He is awesome and all, but not a miracle worker. However if the case were that the PWI Years expanded to today, RVD would easily be on that list. Yes, Stan is an AJPW Triple Crown winner, but RVD is a Grand Slam winner in WWE, a Triple Crown winner according to WWE in ECW and he is also the only man in WWe and in a lot of other companies to be a Double World Heavyweight Champion.
    We all know RVD had a bit of a handicap in Raw that prevented him from getting to the World title. Triple H and the fact that he was not homemade talent. Even so, he overcame it to be WWE Champion. I think I've what else he did as well.

    Is he a household name? No he's not. I know he's great and all, but I'm pretty sure a lot, and I do mean a lot, of people had zero clue who he was when he was inducted at this years Hall Of Fame. He rose to astounding fame in Japan. Meanwhile, a rival of his, Ric Flair, grew to world wide notoriety.

    Gene Kiniski is also an NWA World Champion inducted into various Halls Of Fame. Let's see how well people know him.

    That's great. Shame most people don't know about those accolades.
    Thanks for the information. I needed it as I had no clue of what it was.

    It is true that Stan has a 5 Star match over Rob's Five Star Frog Splashes, but then again, to say RVD's "Most Popular" awards are kayfabe or his #1 spot in the PWI 500, is just ridiculous. These are fan voted. Meaning more than just one wrestling enthuist had his voice heard.

    Oh. OK. See, this is the problem with companies that don't have world wide exposure. You hardly know them. Same with Hansen.
    I really don't see how a scam artist could sneak his way into a wrestling company if you've heard of him and know what he does. You miss the point of my "exposure" thing. It means people know what you can do and the more people know the better. If they know you suck, which I guess is your assumption with the scam artist, then he won't be hired. Easy as that. See, an asset builds a reputation and it spreads as he gains exposure. Just like RVD and how he started in ECW, then Paul suggested him WWE and finally after world wide exposure, TNA called him in.

    And RVD isn't loyal? Of course he is. First off, unlike Stan, he never threatened a company. Secondly this is one of the guys who went unpaid for month in ECW. About 1000 and not once did he complain. He stuck to the end. Stan was always getting a steady flow of cash. RVD was also loyal in WWE. Standing by to the political game of Triple H and simply kept going.

    Who's still going 9 years later and has gained more popularity? Not Stan Hansen. Rob Van Dam.

    Yup. Taz. In his home town. Kicking a heel's ass. Because a face doesn't always get an extended pop in their home town.
    A tip. You should've used his 2001 debut. You know, when he already had his ECW TV run and all that. You know, not a few months after his debut. Unlike Taz, who in your video had been growing in fame since 1993.

    Didn't realize Rob was an Olympic gold medalist. Rob may have been wrestling for 20 years, but he didn't get exposure until 1996 in ECW. Stan Hansen had 27 years of exposure yet was only big in Japan.
    Stan could visit it and people wouldn't know who he was. Even though he was in it.

    Who's to say Stan never did them? How about steroids? Back in those days, things weren't as tight.

    A body slam. A body slam. Something so simplistic, yet it put WWE's then biggest star on the shelf. Great asset there, injuring your biggest star.


    And outside relations aren't related to wrestling? Your public figure is always important.

    :lmao:What? You're calling the voters dumb or soething? Hey thanks for pointing it out. RVD was voted the most popular wrestler over The Rock and Steve Austin. Two years in a row. He outshined the two biggest stars of the 90's.

    It's still a style that brings more bad than good.
    Kurt has been wrestling for a little over 10 and has been talking about retirement for a while already. If he'd had conserved himself, like a good asset, he would last a hell of a lot longer. Are you saying The Undertaker isn't a good asset to WWE because he's been taking many hiatuses since 1994?
    What about RVD, who wrestled for months in ECW with absolutely no pay?

    Nice. Confused. And you're supposed to be telling me why Stan's time in these companies is good. But you're tied up in a knot.
    Yet his entire legacy is built around that Lariat. Not good.

    So you want the move to draw and not the wrestler? That's a reason why RVD is a better asset. He's not a one move wonder. He has a varied moveset that attracts the fans because of his variety.
    A muted video?
    After he has established himself? Seems like it. It's also pretty easy to sell merchandise when you have some. RVD only had shirts. I blame WWE here for the mismanagement and for having Triple H in their ear. You know he was hugely popular from 2001 to 2003.

    WHAT?! The Stunner not memorable? That is laughable. Feud of an era and it's highlighted by The Stunner.

    Yup. And they both have high charisma. As for RVD, he also has the unique style. Stan, is just a Lariat with a bullrope around him.

    Sounds like every other redneck heel.
    Doubt it. RVD just babbles incoherently and people pop huge for the guy anyway.

    Yet the one we remember is Hulk Hogan's. If Stan did it first, why is it so obscure?

    Funny. Stan was World Champion as a cowboy. JBL was a lower mid card guy unless he was with Farooq.

    No it wasn't. JBL was a business tycoon with a bit of a cowboy throwback. He never got over to the main event by being a cowboy.

    Which is sadly pretty obscure. Don't get me wrong, he's great, but RVD is a bigger asset to pro wrestling. Lets see why with my...


    ============================
    Closing Argument
    ============================

    Rob Van Dam is a bigger asset to pro wrestling. Why?

    • Exposure: He's a world renowned name, that has competed at the biggest stages of pro wrestling. Competing in WWE, ECW, WCW, NJPW, TNA and NWE. Stan Hansen has competed in WWWF and AWA but he is much more remembered for his time in Japan. To the more knowledgeable fan at least.
    • Accolades: Rob Van Dam has had some of the biggest achievements in pro wrestling. A Double World Champion as well holding the ECW TV Championship for 2 years in a time where championships were mere toys tossed from wrestler to wrestler. Not RVD. He also unified WWE's mid-card championships into the Intercontinental Championship.
    • Ring Style: He has a very unique style that captivates the audience and is very adaptable to that of other wrestlers. He has also won the title of PWI's #1 wrestler of 2002. Stan Hansen is most remembered for his Lariat. And just that.
    • Popularity: Rob Van Dam has been one of the most popular wrestlers of the last decade. At one point outshining The Rock and Steve Austin via the PWI's fan voted "Most Popular Wrestler" in both 2001 and 2002. Stan was voted best heel one year before totally falling off the map. Not even getting a third runner up win.
    • Reliability: Rob Van Dam can be a very reliable wrestler. In ECW, he wrestled for month's with no pay. Paul Heyman owed him over 1000 dollars. Stan at one point had legal issues in AWA due do a no show. He may have been loyal in Japan, but unlike RVD, he was getting steady pay.
     
  11. Ferbian

    Ferbian Has Returned.

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    [QUOTE="iMPACT! Player" Riaku;2437671]You're nitpicking for an advantage here. While Stan managed to wrestle his entire 27 years under the PWI Years, Rob only had about 5 years of TV exposed wrestling in that time. He is awesome and all, but not a miracle worker. However if the case were that the PWI Years expanded to today, RVD would easily be on that list. Yes, Stan is an AJPW Triple Crown winner, but RVD is a Grand Slam winner in WWE, a Triple Crown winner according to WWE in ECW and he is also the only man in WWe and in a lot of other companies to be a Double World Heavyweight Champion.[/QUOTE]

    Nitpicking is hardly the proper choice of word, especially when I'm right.

    Having used PWI to expose a way to make Rob seem superior would've been more effective if you hadn't ruined it here. You should know that PWI even rates independent stars that are hardly, if ever on television. So Rob only being on televised wrestling programming for 5 years before 2003 hardly makes him any less known to PWI. But he'd hardly rank as high as Stan would even if he was exposed.

    Besides, all the accolades of being a triple crown and grand slam winner in the WWE is applaudable, but something that Stan Hansen could've been duplicated all across the world of wrestling. Considering Stan held world titles, as well as numerous tag team and mid-card championships. Face it, Stan is just more accomplished and decorated than Rob could ever imagine being.

    Rob was hardly even worth a world title in the first place. He was over, but hardly a draw, and he wasn't anywhere near the top talent of the roster. There were certainly better choices around. Rob only got the championship due to the revival of ECW and to hype that.

    Pretty much yeah he was. He was over during his time with WWF, as well as he was over with the Japanese guys, he is one of the most famous wrestlers of his era alongside Giant Baba, a time where Hulk Hogan ruled mind you.

    So? The NWA championship is quite an accolade no matter who held it.

    Doesn't make him less of an asset. I'm sure a lot of people don't know of Ric Flair's accolades with exception of his world titles, yet we both know his legacy far exceeds that.

    True, but for a period of time it was indeed a kayfabe based magazine. Wrestling Observers Newsletter is completely realistic and written / ranked by professional wrestling journalists. Fans will vote for their favorite and all that stuff, but they're hardly the better choice always. Especially looking at some of the bullshit votes there are on WWE.com every week.

    Problem is that Stan Hansen was indeed known. To say otherwise is just wrong. Stan was over both during his time with the NWA and his period with WWF (If you bothered to listen to the promo video I linked earlier of his promo with Freddie Blassie and Vince McMahon as the interviewer.

    The scam artist aspect of it is simply to prove that being exposed and known, hardly makes you a worthwhile asset.

    So really, exposure can go either way. Rob was lucky, but Stan Hansen could've made it just as well in WWF if he went there, but he didn't, due to loyalty.

    And Stan Hansen also stuck through the popularity rise of NJPW eventually becoming bigger than AJPW when they split with their cooperation. Who is most loyal is a hard thing to argue really, when both were loyal in different aspects.

    Besides, the Triple H argument is bullshit, I'm sure RVD stuck around, knowing he had a better paycheck in WWE.

    Stan Hansen retired in 2000, but still worked as an on-screen character. Hardly enough to help your argument that Taz had to retire, but simply were the more over wrestler of the two.

    Hardly enough to argue against the fact that Taz got a much better reaction than Rob Van Dam. Especially considering Rob barely got any, Taz had the whole building explode. Quite a difference there.

    And his 2001 debut still holds very little to Taz' debut against Kurt Angle.

    [YOUTUBE]CHfkZPVNpIg[/YOUTUBE]

    Slightly bigger reaction, but hardly anything compared to the Taz reaction. Kinda ruins it when the WWF guys make a run-in as well doesn't it, and they get a bigger reaction.

    Kurt Angles amateur accomplishments has nothing to do with his Hall of Fame WON induction mate. Again, I'll refer to my earlier statement that the WON guys and PWI guys have more than enough access to rating the independent guys, as the mainstream guys.

    Doubt that.

    Never heard any reports of it. Also, you've seen the guy haven't you? Steroids would've made him look bigger.

    You forgot to mention that Sammartino were back in action 2 weeks later. So the injury in itself, while bad, wasn't enough to keep the biggest star off the shelf, and like I've mentioned before - The injury gave the announcers and promoters a way of promoting Stan's lariat as legitimate bad ass power.

    True, but hardly that would do wonders for Rob Van Dam either, who were a pretty publicly known marijuana smoker.

    Not exactly calling them dumb. However, I am saying there were bigger stars, and weekly more popular stars available. Steve Austin and The Rock were popular as ever in 2001-2002 still, and Brock Lesnar got on the rise in 2002 as well.

    Arguable. Depends on how well the stiffness is handled.

    First off, I'll recite it again, because you obviously didn't get it the first time. Kurt Angle had a broken neck, and he's still more active than Rob Van Dam. Sure he has a bad knee, but so does Rey Mysterio.

    Undertaker is a good asset because he's a big draw, more than Rob can brag about, as well as Undertaker has been wrestling for 26 years, and had numerous injuries in numerous bodyparts. More than Rob is warranted to make a sad face about.


    How about Stan who worked in an era where there were no contract guarantee, he had to work to get paid.

    Hardly true, especially considering he has a career of being a very over heel as well.

    A balanced mixture. People should want to tune in to watch a specific guy wrestle, and get the pay-off due to the specific move that obviously gets the guys over, being performed.

    Hardly muted, there's music. You try finding something of this sort with commentary and such on every single clip. Besides, the clips would get inconsistent and messy with commentary.

    So were Rey and Jeff. The merchandises weren't thrown in his direction because let's face it. It really wasn't worth it.


    Hardly memorable considering we got to see it every damn week, and numerous times at that. The ones it was performed on made it memorable. The move in itself is hardly memorable.

    Unique style? What kind of style is that? Boring drug-affected style? Cause that's pretty much what Rob was. Stan Hansen? Charismatic as ever.

    Hardly. Especially for his time, that's a pretty unique kind of heel I would say.

    Thank you for admitting that Rob's promos are just one big confusing pile of meh.

    I'm not even sure Stan was the first to do it. However it's still impressive. What can Rob compete with? What memorable moment does he have in the ring? Hardly anything unique I'm sure.

    That's because JBL was heavily underused during the time. He showed his talent when he turned into JBL. Talent he had from the beginning. Besides, he build his legacy along the way during the mid-card period.

    And I'll note. The APA was over, what were JBL playing of gimmick when he was with APA? A cowboy. What basics were there in his JBL gimmick? Yes a business wall-street success, but also a cowboy.

    --------------------​

    I'm guessing Riaku went ahead and posted the closing argument because he doesn't plan on being able to reply more to this thread. I respect that, and I wish you all the lucks in the scoring, as well as the future, it was a pleasure, and probably my favorite debate in this tournament for now.

    Closing Argument

    So we've listened to Killjoy explaining why he thinks Rob Van Dam is the biggest asset, it's time to listen to me. While I've already discussed the majority of what there needs to be said for this debate in terms of points to be made, however I'll try to make it something new, while refueling my points.

    Legacy

    Stan Hansen's legacy in the business is simply bigger than Rob Van Dam's. Stan Hansen have wrestled both in Japan and America, something that is often regarded as a great way of building a future star, by getting into different styles. Stan Hansen were a big star in both places, a world champion in America, and having held the highest ranked championship in the AJPW. Stan Hansen was over as hell as a heel, and he generally worked pretty good matches, something that Rob can say as well, but hardly at the level of Stan.

    Also, something I've already mentioned, let's not forget that he has quite a handful of championships under his name, which should definitely add to his legacy, and his accomplishments that warranted him his Hall of Fame inductions.

    Also, who can forget the fact that Japan is the place where the guy pretty much build the legacy of being one of the few to play a monster heel to a T.

    Contribution

    This is something I don't believe I addressed at all, or maybe to it's fullest. However Stan Hansen has contributed a fair share to the business, by giving great feuds with a lot of Japanese wrestlers, as well as American wrestlers in both America and Japan, he had been able to wrestle matches that are generally highly thought of, like his match in Madison Square Garden with Bruno Sammartino, and Hulk Hogan vs Stan Hansen in the Tokyo Dome.

    Influencing Japanese Wrestling

    Stan Hansen, who wrestled the majority of his career in Japan, have definitely influenced both Japanese wrestling, as well as paved the way for Americans who wanted to work with Japanese promotions. Stan Hansen were one of the few Americans who stuck around when he went to Japan, hell I'm sure he's the only one. Stan Hansen's popularity as a heel, as well as general popularity have influenced Japanese wrestling in the way that more wrestlers have gone over there to showcase themselves.
     
  12. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Clarity of debate: Split
    I clearly understood where both of you guys were going with your arguments, so you split the point here.

    Punctuality: Ferbian
    Riaku was late at one point.

    Informative: Split
    I had issues with some of the information both of you presented in this debate. Ferbian, if you want to bring up a move someone innovated, make sure to tell us at least in some detail how that move differs from any others that it could be confused with. You equated Hansen's Lariat with a clothesline, but this is only half correct; the Lariat is a variant of the clothesline, and I would have been highly impressed if you would have been able to inform the readers of this debate why this is so.

    Riaku, if you're going to downplay Stan Hansen's training of JBL and the fact that, for the most part, he was only truly successful in Japan, then you need to give me reasons for why I shouldn't see these facts as advantages to Stan Hansen. You just automatically assumed that everyone else would think similarly, but this is definitely not the case, at least not on my part.

    Persuasion: Ferbian
    Ferbian wins here because he presented the better overall argument and because Riaku was never able to truly overcome that argument satisfactorily. Don't worry, though, Riaku; your strong suit is current wrestling, whether it be TNA or WWE. This was a challenge for you, and you did a decent job.

    Final Score
    Riaku: 1
    Ferbian: 4
     
    Ferbian likes this.
  13. Miko

    Miko WATCHA GONNA DO, BROTHER!?

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    1,240
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    Clarity: What tdigle said on this one

    Point - Split

    Punctuality: Apparently you were late Killjoy, so Ferbians point

    Point - Ferbian

    Informative: It's already been said better than I could've ever put it

    Point - Split

    Persuasion: I dont think the topic left much room for anything really, as it seemed to devolve into "well so and so's won this" etc, both guys have had tremendous success in probably the two biggest wrestling countries in the world, I was dubious before I read the debate and honestly nothing said by either poster swung me in their favour. I call it another split point.

    Point - Split

    My Scores;

    Ferbian - 3
    Riaku - 2
     
    Ferbian likes this.
  14. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,630
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    Clarity of debate: Draw
    Great openings and closing by both of you, kept to the subject strongly.

    Punctuality: Ferbian
    What Tdigs and Miko said.

    Informative: Draw
    Both of you used information and youtube brilliantly, can't fault either one of you on the info front.

    Persuasion: Draw
    You two put forth a great debate that at the end of it, I still can't decide who to side with. Excellent work as you kept in locked horns for a good while.

    Final Score
    Ferbian: 3
    Riaku: 2
     
    Ferbian likes this.
  15. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2009
    Messages:
    744
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    1,607
    Clarity of debate: Draw
    Great openings and debates by both.

    Punctuality: Ferbian
    What everyone else said.

    Informative: Draw
    I like how both of you brought it in this debate. I can't side with one.

    Persuasion: Ferbian
    While both did an excellent job, Ferbian takes this one. His points just did a better job of convincing me that Stan's the man.

    Final Score
    Ferbian: 4
    Riaku: 1
     
    Ferbian likes this.
  16. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    744
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    1,607
    After a complete judge's tally, Ferbian is the victor with 14 points to Riaku's 6.

    Congratulations and great debating from the both of you!
     
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