Round 5: nickb03 -vs- Spoodbeest

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2010' started by D-Man, Aug 29, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2009
    Messages:
    744
    Likes Received:
    1,607
    Is Vickie Guerrero’s on-screen character a disgrace to herself or her late husband Eddie?

    This is a fourth round match in the Debater's League. nickb03 is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate they will be on and who debates first, but they have 24 hours to make their choice.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck.​
     
  2. Big Nick Dudley

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2009
    Messages:
    1,958
    Likes Received:
    1,381
    I will be arguing that no, Vickie's character is not a disgrace to herself or her late husband Eddie. My opponent can open the debate. Good luck.
     
  3. SpoodBeest

    SpoodBeest City Dweller, Successful Fella

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Messages:
    456
    Likes Received:
    199
    Ok so I have the huge load in front of me to defend why Vickie's on screen character is disgracing. Well we might as well get started with the old opening statement.

    First off I will say that she isn't disgracing her husband, but in a sense she does over exploit him even if she doesn't mean it. She has basically been shown as Eddie's widow non stop since his death. More specifically since Rey Mysterio had that feud with Chavo Guerrero and she turned heel siding with Chavo she has been on TV all too much. Having a character that tried to sabotage her late husband's estate, having ****ty relationships with men like Edge and Dolph Ziggler may not seem as a sign of disrespect to Eddie, but some people could very well see it that way. Her character on screen has shown little to no respect for her late husband which in turn leaves a very bad taste in the mouth of some fans and can be looked upon as embarrassing to watch.

    She also has had an over exposure of herself to the point where the majority of fans are fed up with her. Not because she's a good heel but because they think she is disgracing the Guerrero name by constantly appearing on television. Even though she is poor actor, annoying presence and constant screaming pisses people off. Not in the way that she is being a good heel but in the way that people want her to leave the show and never come back, you know like XPac! The more she keeps going out there when she isn't wanted the more she is humiliating herself and exposing the Guerrero name in a bad way.

    She doesn't totally qualify as a disgrace but she is slowly going down a path that will make her one if she keeps this abysmal character up. The fans are sick of it, they don't want to see her, she may be a disgrace to Eddie by portraying ridiculous "cougar" like roles, and it gets more humiliating as time goes on. She has been an on screen character for about four years now, that is not necessary for the widow of a diseased wrestler to be doing. She is causing more harm to herself and family through the eyes of the public then she thinks.
     
  4. Big Nick Dudley

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2009
    Messages:
    1,958
    Likes Received:
    1,381
    I say no, Vickie has not disgraced Eddie's name or her own.​

    As a matter of fact, I think it's the opposite. Sure, Vickie can get rather annoying at times, but she's had it rough. Eddie dying must have been really tough on her and his family, and for her to push through that and become her own character in professional wrestling is something to admire.​

    After Eddie's death, I wouldn't have even imagined Vickie coming back and doing something important in the pro wrestling world. But she did. She was a huge part of the Rey vs. Chavo feud. She added a lot of emotion to the rivalry, just being there.​

    As a GM, she actually made people care. Who is the last heel GM to draw that much heat? Vince McMahon? William Regal? She draws around the same amount of heat both of them did. She is easily the most over woman in pro wrestling today. No woman gets that kind of crowd reaction, anywhere.​

    She has taken part in just about every large-scale feud on Smackdown since Survivor Series 2007, when Edge returned. Vickie was almost as big of a part of the Taker-Edge feud as either one of those men were. I think she added a lot to Edge and every feud he was in, until their official split in June of 2009.​

    Vickie had made a lot out of nothing. She isn't an attractive woman. Most women in wrestling have to rely on their looks and athleticism. Vickie doesn't have that option. She's pretty damn ugly and can't wrestle. She has relied on her talking skills, and has improved on the mic more than I could have ever imagined.​

    She has stepped out of Eddie's shadow, and I still can't figure out exactly how she pulled it off. I have nothing but respect for this woman and everything she has accomplished since the tragic loss of her husband. Eddie is well respected among wrestling fans, IWC and casual alike. It would have been very easy to just dismiss Vickie as riding Eddie's coattails. But she didn't. She made her own way, and that's why there is no way in hell she can be considered as any kind of disgrace to his name.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

    Now onto my opponents argument...

    You sure do.

    I have to disagree. She has completely created her own character. As a matter of fact, it is rarely even brought up anymore that she is Eddie's widow. She has created an original character, that draws a ton of heat. That has to be tough, given the sympathy she received following his death.

    Really? I think it's good writing. I mean after all, it's fake.

    I think fans have taken to her because they understand her need to make a living for her and Eddie's children. I'm sure he left some money behind, and insurance and so forth, but who knows how much was there. She has done a great job of stepping out of Eddie's shadow.

    I do agree the storylines may have been less than respectful from time to time, but that isn't her fault. I'm sure there have been a few things she may have uncomfortable with, but that's the nature of the business, and that makes me respect her even more.

    I don't think this is accurate. She draws top-notch heat. Yes, she is a shitty actress. But that doesn't mean the fans are giving her the "X-Pac" treatment. She has been involved in major storylines for years now. I have seen no proof, nor have you provided any, showing the heat she gets isn't genuine. She isn't getting the John Cena treatment, at least not from where I'm sitting.

    Slowly? She's been doing her heel bit since the late spring of 2007. I wouldn't say she is doing anything slowly anymore.

    Once again, I don't think you can prove her heat isn't genuine.

    She needs a job, dude. And if the opportunity to work for a major pro wrestling company is there, you think she should turn that down? How is making all of that money bad for her and the Guerrero family?

    The Guerrero family knows how the wrestling business works. They more than likely understood she was going to have to piggy-back Eddie's legacy for quite some time to get over. Hell, even Chavo has joined in on the storylines. It's what needed to happen. She needed work, and they gave it to her. Making a living is nothing to be ashamed of, minus doing something illegal. And what she is doing isn't illegal, nor is it wrong.
     
  5. SpoodBeest

    SpoodBeest City Dweller, Successful Fella

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Messages:
    456
    Likes Received:
    199
    No kidding, anyway way good luck to you Nick.

    She may have created her own painfully annoying character, but the name Guerrero is still her last name. That last name being there reminds everyone who she was once married too. That being Eddie, her last name will forever associates her with Eddie and his family. It just the way things are. Yes she draws tons of heat, but is it good heat? The heat I hear is a bunch of desperate fans that want to boo out whatever she is saying to the point where she goes away. That is a sign that fans don't necessarily want to see you anymore. Yes she got great sympathy after Eddie died, she's his wife and whatever sympathy she built up that year she through that all away when she and Chavo feuded with Rey. The birth of her ever annoying on screen character.

    Hardly, it's quite an average character if you ask me. Any old schmuck can show up and yell at the top of their lungs at a crowd for five minutes of air time, what makes Vickie so special.

    I'm sure if WWE is as considerate as they have been to provide her with an ever so unneeded on screen role, they could very well have provided her with some kind of role backstage you know if she wasn't comfortable with what they originally gave her. The fact that she is fine with the crap that's gets written for is a tad alarming to me. Sure she was able to step out of a grieving widow on screen, but the role she stepped into was a conniving bitch who screams at the audience and looks for men to have "relations" with because she offers them benefits sue to her powers as a GM/Consultant. The character could really offend other widows which I will get to later.

    No it's not her fault, but again she went along with it didn't she? She could very easily turned down a role like this if she didn't feel comfortable with what they were giving her. Due to her situation I will once again say that WWE would be sympathetic enough to give her a non television role. Really all she had do was ask, but instead she went along and did such story-lines that could easily offend her fellow widows. I may not be an expert but I'll say that the grieving process for all widows is a long one that can take years to get over or that person may go through their whole life feeling empty inside with heartache. So in a lot of way what Vickie is doing on television could be seen as disrespectful and disgusting by many.

    When a crowd is booing you for the sake of blocking out what you're saying in hope that you go away, is not what i would consider top notch heat. The definition of a good heel is CM Punk, the crowd will listen to what he has to say and boo him when they feel insulted. That is the successful formula in my books. Vickie on the other hand gets booed right away before she even speaks, the crowd doesn't even give her a chance. They boo her in the hope that she goes away not in the way that she is being a good heel.

    Actually her heel run began in the summer of 2006. Remember when she first turne heel and sided with Chavo Guerrero against Rey Mysterio? Her run with Edge was the one that started in 2007, albeit at the end of that year.

    I have already went over this enough times in the past few paragraphs.

    They would know how it works from being in it. They didn't piggyback off of Eddie's legacy in the right light. The way they went about seems more like a in spite of Eddie we will do all these non sensical, evil antics. She felt comfortable stepping into a character that is quite embarrassing and annoying and could also be offensive to her fellow widows. All by her own choice when she easily could have opted out and worked for WWE in some other kind of manner after the death of her husband. I think the company would have been sympathetic enough to her try and do something else rather than just throw her on television if she didn't want that.
     
  6. Big Nick Dudley

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2009
    Messages:
    1,958
    Likes Received:
    1,381
    Funny, when I think of Vickie Guerrero, I rarely think of Eddie. I just think of the character "Vickie." Same goes for Chavo. Can I speak for the entire wrestling fan base? No, and neither can you.

    When she first came onto the scene, after Eddie passed away, I just kept seeing Eddie's widow. But as she grew as a heel character, she completely came into her own. That was something I never expected to happen, not in a million years.

    I don't buy any of that. Vickie gets heat because she plays a character no one can stand. She isn't getting John Cena-type boos, like "You can't wrestle," or anything like that. She is just being booed. Not sure where you are getting this from. So yes, I agree fans are booing her to say they don't like her, but that has more to do with how well she has done in her evil role as opposed to people just thinking she sucks.

    Actually, it was the birth of the character that draws an amazing amount of heat.

    She went from being almost a saint in the eyes of most fans, to being arguably the most hated female character in the history of pro wrestling. After Eddie died, fans felt for this woman. No one wanted to boo her. How did she get the fans to boo? By working a decent program, and making a good heel turn. Who would have ever thought Eddie's widow would be able to draw that much heat? It's pretty remarkable if you ask me.

    I will say it again; what makes Vickie so special is the fact she had to work really hard to draw heat after the death of Eddie. It's not so much about how successful she's been, but how does any of that make her a disgrace? It doesn't.

    Backstage role? Doing what? Mopping the floors?

    As much as I enjoy her character as an evil GM/manager, she knows nothing about the creative side of pro wrestling. It's not like she could have been a writer, or a booker. Also, I don't think she's overly intelligent, so I doubt she could help on the business end of things, as an accountant or anything like that.

    An on-screen role is the only thing she had a chance of succeeding with, and she has done so. WWE wouldn't have kept her on-screen for all this time if they didn't think she was doing a half-way decent job.

    She is playing a character. She is acting. You don't think Al Pacino really snorts a bunch of coke and shoots people Tony Montana-style, do you? Do you think Anthony Hopkins eats people like Hannibal Lecter? She's just playing a role. The vast majority of fans know this is fake, and understand she is playing a scripted character.

    She went along with it to provide for her family. I think that shows a great deal of courage. She went through a horrible tragedy, and came out alright on the other end. She is no longer only known as Eddies widow, but as her own character. I think what she has done deserves a lot more credit than you are giving.

    Also, she isn't new to this business. I'm sure she realized Eddie wouldn't mind her playing the type of character she has in the context of the show. If any family understands this business, it's the Guerrero's.

    I've already addressed this, but I'll be a bit more specific here.

    She draws heat because her character is annoying and useless. For the sake of beating a dead horse, I'll even (fictitiously) agree with you she draws "bad" heat. Who cares! Who cares if fans don't want to see her anymore. She's a general freakin' manager. A consultant. She isn't wrestling in 20 minute matches. She isn't holding any titles. I really don't agree that all fans want her gone, but even if they do, who cares?

    It's just a speaking role, that draws heat. Not only does it draw heat to Vickie, but to whoever she is managing. Why do you think WWE has attached her to Dolph Ziggler? They are looking to get him over as a major heel, and hope Vickie can lend some of her heat to him, because she gets a hell of a lot more heat than he does.

    Thanks for the historical correction, but I was pointing out when she went out on her own as a heel, not just using the family name.

    We've already went over this several times, not addressing it again.

    Vickie has become a role model to all widows. She has made something of herself, when no one thought it possible. She is an inspirational woman, not a disgrace.
     
  7. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2008
    Messages:
    1,646
    Likes Received:
    1,495
    I liked SpoodBeast's opening argument more than nickb03's, although I think nickb03 found a way to present both an argument and rebuttal in a manner that doesn't annoy me. I split the informative point between you two, but, given that this debate was ethical more than anything else, I didn't expect much information to be brought in. SpoodBeast had a shorter average response time than nickb03, so he gets the point for punctuality. I like nickb03's rebutting more, however, and this is what, in my eyes, won him both persuasion points.

    Final Score
    SpoodBeast - 2.5
    nickb03 - 2.5
     
  8. Miko

    Miko WATCHA GONNA DO, BROTHER!?

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,240
    Likes Received:
    1,254
    Clarity: Both were fine, easy to read, a split on this one

    Point - Draw

    Punctuality: Both guys seem like they were on time, so it's another split

    Point - Draw

    Informative: Really not much either guy could do, so a split again

    Point - Draw

    Persuasion: Nickb03 had the more persuasive argument, bringing up the fact that she's only playing a character. Spood didnt really do enough to counterract that

    My Scores;

    Nickb03 - 3.5
    Spoodbeest - 1.5
     
  9. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,630
    Likes Received:
    703
    Clarity of debate: Draw
    Both guys set up their debates nicely and kept it thorough and flowing from both ends.

    Punctuality: Draw
    Good response times from both guys here.

    Informative: Draw
    Equal amount of information given, but neither men used it to their full advantage.

    Persuasion: nickb03
    Despite the even amount of work from both guys, nickb03 had the slight edge that kept making me think that Vickie isn't disgracing herself or Eddie. There would be times that Spoodbeest had me going 'well there there is this' and nick was quick to respond to the point and draw me back in support him, he gets the points here.

    Final Score
    nickb03: 3.5
    Spoodbeest: 1.5
     
  10. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2009
    Messages:
    744
    Likes Received:
    1,607
    Clarity of debate: Draw
    Dead even here.

    Punctuality: Draw
    Both were on time.

    Informative: Draw
    Both men gave enough information with the subject that was chosen.

    Persuasion: nickb03
    In the end, I just felt nickb's point a little bit more than Spood's.

    Final Score:
    nickb03: 3.5
    Spoodbeest: 1.5
     
  11. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2009
    Messages:
    744
    Likes Received:
    1,607
    After a complete judge's tally, nickb03 is the victor with 13 points to Spoodbeest's 7.

    Congratulations and great debating from the both of you!
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice
monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"