Round 4: Falkon -vs CHOICE

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2010' started by D-Man, Aug 22, 2010.

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  1. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Falkon has opted to take their CHOICE this week. Therefore, they will be risking their points in the Double or Trouble option. Their guest opponent will be revealed by tomorrow morning. Here is the debate these participants will be involved in:

    Whenever you see The Miz do appearances for the WWE, he’s always kept to his character in comparison to someone like Kane who’s appeared as Glen Jacobs.

    Yes or No: Is it important to keep a personal identity when doing public appearances or is being seen as your on screen character the only way to work with the public and media outside of the wrestling industry?


    This is a fourth round match in the Debater's League. Falkon's winning points will be doubled but their losing points may be deducted from their total score. Falkon is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate they will be on and who debates first, but they have 24 hours to make their choice.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck.​
     
  2. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome our first guest-debater of the tournament:

    THE BRAIN!!!!!!

    Falkon, please choose a side in the debate and who debates first.

    This round will be just like any other debate except points are now being risked on Falkon's side. If Falkon wins the most overall points, they earn DOUBLE those points given by the judges. But if Falkon loses, they lose all points given by the judges.

    Good luck to the participants!!
     
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  3. Viola Moonlight

    Viola Moonlight I'm Literally Just Here for WZCW

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    Yes: It is important to keep a personal identity when doing public appearances rather than being seen as your on screen character. In all fairness, I will opt to go first in the debate.
     
  4. Viola Moonlight

    Viola Moonlight I'm Literally Just Here for WZCW

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    Good luck, Brain.


    Professional wrestling is a tough business. Not only does your knowledge have to consist of being able to put together a logical, safe wrestling match, but you must develop a character. These "characters" are usually a gimmick that people in the crowd can relate to and eventually, can emotionally invest into. Every week, you see that the mass of guys that walk through the curtain do this same repetitive task, week in... week out. When the company camera's are rolling for their weekly, episodic shows or hosting Pay-Per-View events... these characters come to life! But, these people that play their characters don't keep the kayfabe going and consume their characters (which I will be discussing a little later). They shift from this magical world to reality where they become their own selves... their own personal identities, resuming life like normal. However, there is a middle ground slated under "public appearances." These appearances involve wrestlers going to events, interviews, etc. and promote their respective companies and their lifestyle. Not only do the camera's roll (most of the time), they have to entertain audiences... similar to what they'd do inside the wrestling ring. Yet, when they are contacted to appear at these events, the people are... no the characters. So, a common question is asked: What personality should wrestlers use in public appearances?

    I firmly believe that wrestlers should use their own personal identities, and here is why:


    1) Mental Health Issues (& Legal Ramifications):


    As I said before, it's a hard life to live. There is a lot of stress that the body takes, including a lot of mental issues. The last thing that you want to introduce to wrestlers is more risks to their well-being. By acting as the kayfabe persona for the majority of the time, including outside of the kayfabe world... whilst acknowledging how much the business takes a toll on people in the industry... you are slowly going to believe that you are the character. Everything in reality will be based on the kayfabe character that you have come to create. Don't believe me?

    James Brian Hellwig: You might remember him better as the Ultimate Warrior. One of the biggest superstars to step foot inside a WWE ring. He had the look, the intensity, a character and the fans were behind him. He achieved success in what was known as the "F" back then, even winning the WWF Championship against the biggest icon of wrestling history Hulk Hogan... cleanly. He is also one of the most controversial stars to work for the company, and not in the positive light. Hellwig believed in his character so much that he continually insisted to have his own creative control, which he received in both WWF and WCW. Not only this, but Hellwig and the "F" got into legal arguments over who owned the character throughout the 90's and he legally changed his name to Warrior... all this from Hellwig believing in his character and becoming the character.​

    You are probably thinking to yourself right now, "Wait up there FK, that's not answering the question at hand concerning public appearancres!" To be honest, it doesn't do it entirely. However, this is a clear cut example of what can potentially happen when someone gets too attached to their character on the outside world (a category that defines "public appearances" with area's like the media) and will have adverse affects on everyone involved. You can't deny legally changing your name to your character's gimmick name hasn't done any psychological effects to the aforementioned person. Their health is out the window and a lot of people will sympathise with the Warrior, and point the blame on the company he worked for (a.k.a. WWF), thus creating a bad public image. Surely having one of their biggest star take legal action multiple times against the corporate giant isn't something that the "F/E" would want. By being themselves, none of this would have happened.


    2) They Are Called "Characters" For A Reason:​


    I want you to go to your local movie theatre and watch any movie of your choice. Pick one... any one. Doesn't matter what you watch... it's all the same when you get inside. You are watching a story play out. There are protagonists and antagonists, good guys and bad guys... all different characters playing different roles to create a work of art. It's the exact same thing with professional wrestling, only there is a lot more fight scenes that are used to explain a lot of the story. Actors of those movies usually do public appearances for some promotions and hype the movie, as well as gain some notoriety among the people. When they go out on television like Late Night Shows for interviews, they come out and interact/entertain everyone whilst being their own personal identity. Why?

    A) Character Over-Saturation: You don't want to go out on free television and become the character you play for a lengthy period of time. By showing off aspects of these characters, the people that intended on watching the film will be spoiled and may ruin their experience when they view it for the first time. The original thoughts of how the person acted as the character during the story can be negatively influenced. You need to sell the movie, but by staying in character during multiple public appearances, you are going to make the character become stale quite quickly and turn possible viewers off.

    B) Public Image: If a character in a movie is quite arrogant and pretty much someone quite insensitive, would it be wise for the actor's playing them to replicate that sort of behaviour during a public appearance? Not at all. With the political-correct society and people looking for positive role models, coming out and saying that African-American jokes (for example) wouldn't be taken to kindly by the media... once again creating this negative image.​

    As stated above, professional wrestling has common similarities with acting. Re-read these reasons again and insert professional wrestling terminology and examples. It's the same, isn't it? You can't have wrestlers portraying their characters during public appearances. Some characters can be quite harmful if applied to reality. Can you imagine someone like Kane making an appearance with kids involved and discuss how he likes to put people into caskets, loves the use of fire and disfigure people because he enjoys it? I'm not Cigar Lounge savvy... but I'm pretty sure a lot of those acts are wrong (i.e. illegal, immoral). Wouldn't look too good in the WWE's image, considering they cater for kids.


    The professional wrestling world is where the characters are not only allowed, but it's encouraged and enjoyed. In reality, they don't make sense. Being yourself in reality, does.
     
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  5. The Brain

    The Brain King Of The Ring

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    Professional wrestling is a unique business. It reaches out to all ages. Weather you’re getting ready for kindergarten or retirement it’s easy to get lost in the world of wrestling. Different people are entertained by different things, but we all have one thing in common. Whenever we are watching wrestling we want to take a step back from reality and get caught up in this wonderful fantasy world. When the curtain is pulled back some of the magic escapes us; even to those of us who know better in the first place. I believe when wrestlers make public appearances it is better for the fans and themselves to stay in character.

    With all the talk of WWE going PG two years ago we know the fan base has a lot of kids again. If I was a nine year old fan and I found out Sheamus was going to be on Letterman I have certain expectations. This is supposed to be a fearless and intimidating warrior. It would destroy some of his mystique if all of a sudden he was cracking jokes when that is the opposite of the character we have come to know. Suddenly he’s not so intimidating and I don’t have the same sense of fear when he is in the ring. From an adult’s point of view I would be interested in seeing how he can take his wrestling character into a new environment and see how a different audience reacts to him. It may come off as foolish to some non wrestling fans to see a wrestler in character, but honestly those aren’t the people WWE is trying to reach. It would be great to attract new fans, but I highly doubt a wrestler appearing on a talk show as himself is going to sell any additional pay per views. However, a wrestling fan on the fence about buying the ppv may decide to buy if an intriguing angle can be furthered in a public place away from the arena. Anyone remember Jerry Lawler vs. Andy Kauffman? It was a while ago (1982), and for those who don’t know Kauffman was in Taxi which was one of the top rated television shows at the time. Kauffman got mixed up in wrestling and eventually got a match with Lawler. Lawler gave Kauffman his piledriver twice and Kauffman sold the injury by wearing a neck brace in public. The two appeared together on Letterman where Lawler slapped Kauffman and Kauffman went on a profanity laced tirade before throwing coffee in Lawler’s face. That’s much more intriguing than the two of them appearing together laughing and joking about the angle.

    Even if WWE is concerned about how certain characters would be received in public appearances they still have plenty of options. John Cena, Triple H, Rey Mysterio, and Big Show are just some people who can do public appearances and their on screen character would be accepted as just a normal guest. This tends to be the case with a lot of the faces who tend to be more in demand for pubic appearances anyway. Before WresleMania this year Chris Jericho appeared on George Lopez and did karaoke to Air Supply. That was good for a laugh, but as a fan I want to see the Jericho I know sell his upcoming championship match. Jericho has a gimmick where he is an uptight stick in the mud and all of a sudden he’s a laugh a minute singing karaoke. It just doesn’t work for me. He’s a heel and his job is to be hated. He became more popular with anyone who saw that. Only in wrestling is that a bad thing.

    You mentioned a comparison to movies and also public image. It’s fair to say movies and wrestling are similar, but they are also very different. Typically when a movie star appears on a talk show it is to promote a movie that is brand new or hasn’t even been released yet. The vast majority of the audience hasn’t seen it yet. The movie star is not concerned about getting his character over because nobody knows about it yet. Wrestlers come in already having their character established. Movie stars are their character for two hours and never have to perform in front of a live audience. Wrestlers will continue on with their character for years and must perform live as that character in front of a different audience almost every day. The wrestler has a much bigger commitment and has much more invested in his character. As for public image it wouldn’t be wise for an actor who plays a villain to play that character in public. A wrestler could greatly benefit from it. Remember the villain wrestler wants to be hated. The more hated he is the more successful he could potentially become. Fans watch to boo the bad guy as much as they watch to cheer the good guy. There is definitely something satisfying to see the bad guy finally get what he has coming to him. Much more so in wrestling than movies. In movies your hatred for the bad guys has built up for about 90 minutes. In wrestling it has built up for months so it is much more satisfying when he falls. Also in wrestling you get to see the bad guy get beat up live. Even though it’s scripted it’s a lot easier to get caught up in the action when it develops in front of you. The wrestler needs to keep that hatred going, and going into a new element to display is arrogance is a great way to do that. If The Miz was going on Regis I don’t want to see him as a nice guy. I want that cocky heel I’ve come to love to hate. That would make for better television and Regis would be smart enough and respectful enough to play along.

    Regis had The Undertaker on his show in 1994 right before the Royal Rumble. He was in character and he and Paul Bearer were promoting the upcoming casket match at the Royal Rumble. They showed clips of Taker in action and made the match out to be a big deal. It may have been a little cheesy, but it was a cool way to hype a ppv. Right before SummerSlam 2003 Taker was on Jimmy Fallon out of character. They briefly mentioned his upcoming match with A Train, but mostly made fun of his hairy body, mentioned how wrestling is fake, and ended with a pillow fight. This did not get me any more excited for SummerSlam. The cheesy in character appearance sounds a lot better to me.

    As for The Warrior, he’s a unique case. For all the criticism he gets he’s not as crazy as he’s made out to be. I’m not going to defend everything he’s done, but I think him wanting to become his character was much more financially motivated than being mentally unstable. I really don’t think he thought he was The Ultimate Warrior. He just felt that he created that character and he should be the one to benefit from it for the rest of his life, not Vince.

    Overall wrestling is supposed to be fun for us and I think it’s a lot more fun to see a wrestler in character in a different environment and how they can connect to a different audience. It adds a sense of realism that disappeared a long time ago that deep down we would all love to have back. It doesn’t matter that we know better. We know better when we’re watching raw and Smackdown, but that doesn’t make us enjoy it any less. There are always guys like Cena, Triple H, and Rey who can be themselves and not hurt their character. Those who are different from their character worked long and hard to establish it. Don’t ruin it with one meaningless appearance.
     
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  6. Viola Moonlight

    Viola Moonlight I'm Literally Just Here for WZCW

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    From a business perspective, sending out someone like Sheamus to a talk show host wouldn't be the greatest idea. He might be the Champion and a main eventer from RAW, the flagship show, but he hasn't got name value nor the appeal to get people to watch non-wrestling programming featuring something from wrestling programming. The WWE or another other company would be best sending out someone who has been representing the business for a long while that has created a buzz in reality. Having John Cena or The Miz create these appearances would be better off. A lot of people hang off every word that these charismatic and beloved wrestlers say, so any simple advertisement towards the E (such as PPV's) will do nothing but positive business. They draw viewers in on WWE programming, so why not use the same for non-WWE?

    Another thing too is that these characters are quite similar to their individual persona's as human beings, so there is no need to act in character the entire time. They haven't got some specialised aspect to their gimmick that needs attention for the character to work. They can easily be themselves and throw a catchphrase or signature character line in there and people will accept/enjoy the appearance. By having them be friendly and welcoming, new or skeptic viewers will be more inclined to check out the next program of WWE television. Can't hurt to gain some new fans by using people in their normal character, right?

    This example is over 25 years old and is considered irrelevant. Let's stick with the modern era... back then people didn't realise that the wrestling world was done in kayfabe and everything they saw on TV was meant to be real. These men were forced to go under their character during public appearances so they could conceal the secrets of the professional wrestling world for generations to come. Now since these secrets have come out and people are full knowing that what these guys do on WWE and other wrestling programming is all scripted, there is a clear choice as to whether wrestlers can be themselves or their character. To avoid making mistakes of the past where some wrestlers have lived off their former glory as their wrestling persona's, it's best if they be themselves at every point they can be. The psychological toll that would normally take on their brains won't exist and are able to continue life as if their professional wrestling career never happened.

    In the world of professional wrestling, the characters are supposed to gain heat from a live crowd, whether negative of positive. When they venture into the outside world, is there a point? They aren't contributing anything to the storyline or the feud that their characters are currently slotted in, the walls of kayfabe aren't erected (for lack of a better word)... it's reality, a place where your personal identity is accepted. Chris Jericho appeared to do singing because he is known to be a vocalist in a band in reality. Does it hurt? Not really, because he is doing something that his real life persona would do. So if he is not doing harm, why can't he have a little fun every now and again?

    Now, there are some movies were characters are already known before hand due to a television series or it being a popular character (like Batman)... yet the actor's that play those roles, despite all of what you said, still come out as their own personal identities to promote the movie. It's called the character over-saturation factor here... you don't want to spoil the movie even though you already understand and emotionally invest in the characters enough to become interested in the movie.

    And what happens when an actor plays a character for a certain program for multiple years and comes out to do public appearances? They appear as themselves and talk about everything concerning the show as an actor, not as their character. Considering that RAW is easily comparable to any television series were one actor has to play on character for a long time (as wrestlers do with theirs), they can do the same. People know what's going on in the show and they don't want to see their characters talking seriously with the interviewer or talk show host. They want to see them as the person behind the character talk about their world behind the scenes. You've got heels from tv shows coming out and playing nice, so why can't the E do the exact same?

    Again, these are two different era's and two different characters. A comparison really can't be made here except for subjective arguments about "It makes me feel better off to see Undertaker in character." Anyway, both times Undertaker was hyping his match. The second version was played as Mark Calloway the person where he was poking fun at A-Train. Now as the face character, making funnies against the bad guys is something that is common (take a look at John Cena rapping on the Nexus)... so there really isn't a difference.

    It is still essentially Warrior believing in his character too much to cause a lot of problems. If he has the mindset that he created the character and legally changed his name to become him, going as far as naming his children with the last name of "Warrior," don't you think that he has some psychological problems? An ego that huge would never go to these lengths in spite. Even so, there are a lot of conflicting arguments between Vince and Warrior as to who made the character. Signing under the WWE name normally means that anything you bring in is going to end up as their property and you can't take it away... unless, of course the name you are using is your real name OR you have used the character in a major promotion before entering the E so they can't steal it for themselves.

    Unfortunately for the past this couldn't have been prevented due to the idea that you can't break kayfabe, especially with Warrior's gimmick. Today, you don't have to stick to your character and be yourself, not ending up like him.

    It's not ruining it because these public appearances are nowhere near the storyline that these wrestlers are acting out. Are you trying to tell me that Kane can't come out as Glenn Jacobs and discuss some interesting topics such as politics, but he can discuss it as Kane's character saying that Barack Obama was the one who put Taker in a vegetative state with the tax hikes?

    The character that everyone portrays are supposed to be directed at a specific audience and roleplayed in front of that specific audience. There is no need for the mythical character to make its debut in reality as a lot of their aspects just wouldn't make sense. You can increase interest, business, ratings, etc. by just being the professional wrestling behind the character and discuss things on a level that everyone would understand, not a certain audience. While it would be fun for us fans to see them interact as their characters, it's not realistic when you look at the bigger picture and audiences watching.
     
  7. The Brain

    The Brain King Of The Ring

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    I agree that sending Sheamus to a talk show host would not be the smartest of moves. Not because he doesn’t have name appeal. WWE clearly feels he is strong enough to represent them as their champion. It’s because that type of thing doesn’t fit his character. We have a hard time picturing Sheamus in that kind of environment because of the character we know from RAW. Behind the scenes he could be hilarious. He’s good buddies with Triple H so there’s reason to think he has a good sense of humor. He might fit right in, but that’s not what we want from Sheamus because that’s not how we view him. It’s ok for Triple H, Cena, or Show because they have all had that type of personality on WWE programming.

    It was a different era. There’s no doubt about it. Wasn’t it fun though? Most adult fans have a soft spot for the old school stuff and wish some things could go back to yesteryear. The reason is because we loved that stuff as kids so it stands to reason kids today would love it too. Lawler and Kauffman weren’t forced to go on the show in character. They chose to do it because it would be memorable and make an impact. It would garner attention nationwide and create interest in their product. If something like this was to happen today us smart fans would mark out for it because kayfabe was being used outside the arena. As for the non wrestling fans, the ones who always insist on telling us wrestling is phony, they’re the most gullible people of all. If Edge was to spear Orton through the Tonight Show set the fans would go crazy over it (tell me you wouldn’t mark out) and the non fans would be confused. They would be the ones saying “I know wrestling is fake, but did you see what happened on Leno? That wasn’t planned. That was real.” It’s not so far fetched. It happened with Kauffman, it happened with Mr. T, it happened with Lawrence Taylor, and if done right it could happen again at any given time.

    There is a point if they’re in the public eye. They have a great opportunity to use an outside forum to further establish whatever heat they’ve already created for themselves. Why should someone like The Miz work every night to get the people to hate him only to completely change gears? Not only that, but he would be expected to change back when he’s back on his own show. I feel it would be much better for him if he were to remain consistent with his character. Keep in mind just because he’s away from the arena doesn’t mean he’s away from the fans. If Miz were to go on Leno thousands of wrestling fans would tune in who otherwise may not. They are expecting a certain character and would be disappointed to just see Miz as himself. The non fan wouldn’t care. He would forget about Miz before the show was over. However, if Miz was his usual cocky self he might stand out to that non fan. Then while channel surfing during Monday Night Football commercials he might recognize that jerk from Leno and keep the channel on USA for a little while to see him get his ass kicked.

    You may have a point here if wrestlers performed in empty arenas and strictly for a television audience. However, they have to go out in front of thousands of people live every night and draw a real reaction. Most actors don’t have to perform in front of a live audience and the ones that do usually benefit from a staged audience. They get a laugh track and a sign to tell people when to applaud. When you want to get the same reaction from thousands of different people in a different city every night you need to remain consistent with your character.


    But which one left a better impression? Seeing Undertaker in character push a huge casket out on a live talk show to hype his match or seeing Calloway come out to shoot the shit with Jimmy Kimmell (mistakenly said Fallon the first time) and barely mention the ppv? The reason Taker was on each show was to promote the upcoming ppv. One appearance made me more excited about the ppv. The other did not. The reason is because I watch to see The Undertaker not Mark Calloway.

    We all know Warrior is a rare breed. He has a history of bizarre behavior. I don’t think it’s fair to use one example of a guy becoming too attached to his character when there are thousands who have been able to separate gimmick from reality. Besides I still stand by his motivation being financial. I’m not suggesting wrestlers need to be in character 24 hours a day. When they’re on tv it’s typically for twenty to thirty minutes a night. Same amount of time when it’s a house show. There may be a little fan interaction throughout the day. Public appearances don’t usually last too long. This gives the wrestlers an overwhelmingly majority of their time to be themselves. I’m not saying Miz needs to be a jerk to the public when he’s out having a meal or seeing a movie. Just when the cameras are rolling and he’s representing WWE.

    I absolutely do not want to see Kane in normal street clothes appear on CNN to discuss the topics of the day with Larry King. I know Glenn Jacobs is a smart man and I am fully aware of the inconsistencies in Kane’s character development over the years, but for 13 years I have been told he is a monster and a tormented soul. I don’t see how it would benefit anyone to have Kane show up somewhere to talk politics. People who don’t watch wrestling probably wouldn’t take him seriously and they certainly wouldn’t tune in to cheer him on based on his opinions of the tax hikes. Wrestling fans don’t know Glenn Jacobs. They know Kane, and to see Kane in that environment would be too strange and wouldn’t serve a purpose. I’ll agree that the character everyone portrays is directed at a specific audience. What you have to realize is that audience is extremely loyal and passionate. They are going to follow these characters wherever they go. They want to see the characters they’re familiar with. Remember the gimmick is always more interesting than the real person. If that wasn’t the case the gimmick wouldn’t exist in the first place.
     
  8. Viola Moonlight

    Viola Moonlight I'm Literally Just Here for WZCW

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    If WWE feels that they don't need Sheamus to make appearances because he is strong enough for their representation, than what category do people like Randy Orton & Chris Jericho fall under? I'm sure they wouldn't need to go and make appearances just to keep themselves afloat and strong enough. I digress, however...

    By having people whose characters fit their own personal identities (or one would think it being quite close), you have a limited amount of choice to send people out to perform public appearances under that mindset. While it can be considered a good idea to push forth your best public speakers, it's not the most idealistic approach when concerned with business aspects. Sometimes promoting a PPV or other event may require someone that hasn't got a "natural/realistic" character to get the best possible results. Also, a limited list of wrestlers to do said public appearances will drain their energy and over-work them, whilst demoralising the rest of the roster (i.e. give them a lower moral as they aren't being sent to do the appearances).

    And it's not just this... sometimes the appearances involve the wrestlers answering questions that aren't adaptable to their character or are being asked in realistic terms. For example, Triple H could be asked on his views of Randy Orton. In the character sense, he would rip him a new one considering the history they've had. Not really a good idea as we have seen them give promo's towards each other in the past, they are both face characters and it would be unsportsmanlike to do so outside of the E's controls. In the realistic sense, he can rate Orton as a performer and speak about how much of a benefit he is, as well as alluding to their rivalry. He might crack a joke here or there, but it wouldn't be anything to the extent of doing it in character. Which is more appropriate for a generalised audience?

    Er...I wouldn't mark out? See, I told you so... oh wait.

    With the society of today having a more realistic approach and being brought up with realism, it would be a fair call to say that these same kids would ask after such an incident would happen "Why isn't Edge being taken down by security guards?" I mean, if you were to script something, you'd make it more realistic. Jerry Springer, anyone?

    Seriously though, let's take a look at the events that unfolded between Lawler and Kaufman, uncensored:

    [YOUTUBE]8l_Xm8GQW14[/YOUTUBE]​
    1) Jerry slapped Andy in the face and didn't get punished.

    2) Kaufman had a neck-brace on when he was hit, yet managed to recover after the commercial break and bounce around like nothing happened.

    3) Andy had an entire hissy fit where the host of the show, Letterman, was sitting and proceeded to use excessive language and threats... followed by throwing water in his face.​

    After that ENTIRE ordeal, they had ONE, count them, ONE security guard casually go after Andy who exited the studio calmly. Not exactly the kind of thing that would be worth replicating in today's standards, is it? Sure, back then it could be considered a deal with the limited knowledge... but now? I doubt they could pull it off. I mean, hell, you remember the fan throwing water on Simon Cowell and the security immediately taking them out? Exactly.

    If these superstars have to use outside forums to get heat from the crowd, then something's quite wrong with their character. These characters have an assigned slot every week to pull off whatever necessary to portray what they are as a persona in their current storyline. It all happens through the shows like RAW and iMPACT! and it is what they are designed for. Public appearances are just that... appearances to the public where the people of the company come out and promote themselves or the product. TV stars that participate in shows similar to wrestling do it and they benefit positively, why can't the wrestlers?

    As for someone like the Miz acting in character, it wouldn't make any sense. Sure, he might be a narcissistic, egotistical idiot that could get the reaction of people watching... but how does that promote anything good about the product. A lot of non-fans will think how much of an embarrassment he is in promoting the company, considering the image of the E in the media these days. Having anything out of line will certainly cost them with a barrage of insults from television shows that have higher credibility ratings than any old Late Show. You might want to see him get his butt kicked, but there is a minimal chance that the aforementioned non-fan would continue to tune into the programming because their main focus is watching Monday Night Football. I know when commercials are inserted between my shows I watch I channel surf long enough to keep myself entertained, but switch over back to my programming. I don't care in the long run about my second choice, and neither will the non-fan.

    Back to the top sentences of the previous paragraph, it's not in the Miz's character to plug the WWE that wouldn't benefit his career or his credibility. His character is out there to prove he will be the best... financial gain isn't a worry. So how could anyone explain him hyping a PPV? If he was his normal self he could achieve so much more. Not only is there the possibility to use lines and mannerisms from The Miz character you see on E television, he can become serious and discuss the important issues that you normally wouldn't see. Anyone can tune into WWE television and see the Miz be Miz... it's rare to see Miz talking as a performer. I'm sure that would warrant for some ratings, correct?

    How should the difference between live and staged performances be any different to the argument? We are talking about public appearances and comparing actors to wrestlers, not how their jobs are performed.

    Actors, like wrestlers, perform characters. They have to go through the stress and the pressure of being able to pull off everything about their character so the audiences that watch the shows can invest into them, play out their storylines and be a good actor. Once the show is finished, they no longer have to be their character... whether said character may be similar to their own personality or far from the edge. They go out and about, doing their own thing. When they appear in front of the public for appearances, they may use aspects of their character for a laugh, but that's it. They speak for themselves... and they do quite well in promoting their shows. Professional wrestlers, considering the similarities, should be able to do the same.

    No-one wants to see a character get old too quickly.

    I apologise for the poor quality, but let's take a trip down memory lane. Let's use yet another example my opponent, The Brain, thinks is seemed "more impressive:"

    [YOUTUBE]0_EgMsbpdc0[/YOUTUBE]​

    1) Did I just see Undertaker shake hands with Regis and Kathy? Is he supposed to do that? Didn't he refuse to shake hands with the same two people three years ago?

    2) Regis & Kathy continually poked fun at these characters, ultimately berating them. Hell, Kathy even asked "Is that a big deal?" when referring to the WWF Championship.

    3) Regis, on his own free will, climbs into the casket and haves fun. Wasn't it built up that the casket was feared by everyone but Undertaker? Why did a mere mortal that isn't involved in the business willingly do something a lot of people in the kayfabe world fear?​

    None of it does any justice for the Undertaker's character, nor does it give the E/F any credibility. It might be a mark out moment, but that's the only thing to come of it. I don't want the real world to suffer from Russo-itis.

    Just for your reference if you want to compare my points, here is a video of Taker's earlier appearance in 1991 (about the same era):

    [YOUTUBE]pW43NTZAXZg[/YOUTUBE]​

    Either way you look at it, Warrior is still obsessed about his character.

    These appearances might not last long, but these guys have to attend a multitude of events. It would be quite draining on themselves to adapt their character to each event and make it special for everyone there. Why put them through the extra stress all for public appearances that the majority of fans won't see? Why not allow them to use their best material in the ring and on WWE programming when it matters? Wrestlers won't over-use their characters and they get the chance to relax a little by being themselves with the fans... interacting with them on a personal and real level. I guarantee people will listen when someone pushes aside their character and talks from the heart. May I remind you of Tommy Dreamer's promo in TNA?

    A lot of what you said is quite backstabbing to your argument. I've highlighted them for you so you can understand. People don't want to see Kane, the character, discuss real life topics. You admitted it. Wrestling fans will continue to follow the business because they are loyal and passionate... so they wouldn't care if someone like Kane became Glenn Jacobs and went on Larry King. You admitted it. Hell, some people wouldn't realise that Glenn is Kane, so what's the harm in having him appear normally? It won't break any character at all. You admitted it.

    I will be addressing the underlined bit here. Like you said, different shows target different audiences. People tune into Larry King to see intense discussions between him and his guests, revealing things about their life. Having someone like Kane on the show wouldn't do any good as they have already explained him on WWE programming. Doing any further investigation with the mind of King would mean that Kane is put in a difficult position. He doesn't back down from no-one and would have to answer King's questions... yet everything he says will go on record and if the E wants to manipulate Kane's character, they have to use what was said on national television as backstory to make it relevant. People don't tune into King to see Kane cut a promo, that's what the WWE is for. People tune into King to see someone like Glenn Jacobs have a meaningful discussion. Jacobs is a smart man, which you also said, and would create a conversation that has the potential to attract viewers.

    Your character only works in the particular situation. Would you want Christoper Reeve to act weak every time "Kryptonite" by 3 Doors Down plays on the radio? How about Eric Banner playing the character of Chopper 24/7?
     
  9. The Brain

    The Brain King Of The Ring

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    As I mentioned before, there are plenty of examples where a wrestler’s character is so close to just a normal guy he can make a public appearance as his character without it being unusual. It does limit the choices of who you could send out, but not as much as you seem to think. I’ve already listed Cena, HHH, Rey, and Show. You could also add Kofi, Christian, MVP, Morrison, Truth, and pretty much any face to that category. Logically the heels would be where the problem lies, but it doesn’t need to be a problem. The fans know what to expect out of these guys. A television or radio host for example would be willing to play along with the character and have a staged interview. Guys like Jericho, Edge, and Miz are charismatic enough to come off as a good guest and talented enough to remain in character at the same time. Here’s an example of a heel making an appearance in character while still be entertaining for the show and its audience.

    [YOUTUBE]iv8HN2OdjVY&p=562CC8635BA1C5B0&playnext=1&index=20[/YOUTUBE]

    This may seem a little silly, but we all know wrestling is more than a little silly itself. This clip showed a clip of a current wrestling angle. Something fans would want and expect when a wrestler is an advertised guest. Bad News stayed in character and got his angle some attention while Arsenio and his audience got to have a little fun. It was a win-win. I was ten years old when this took place, which is the approximate age of a lot of the current fan base. If I watched this show and Allen Coage showed up to discuss what was going on in the Persian Gulf I would have been sorely disappointed and unentertained.

    As for your Triple H/Randy Orton example, it’s very simple to handle something like that. Host: “What are your views on Randy Orton?” HHH: “He’s a tremendous talent and he has wrestling in his blood. He has a bright future. Personally I can’t stand the guy and I welcome any opportunity to show how much I can’t stand him in the ring.” See how easy that was?

    I think something like this could very much work today. The smart fans of the IWC would obviously know such an incident was staged, but they would be glad to see a wrestling angle performed in a place out of the ordinary. I guarantee you a good percentage of people would think it was real. Despite all the knowledge we have been privy to over the past ten years don’t overestimate the public’s ability to grasp the concept of a wrestling angle. As recently as 2007 the Wilkes Barre PA police department was flooded with calls the night Vince McMahon’s limo exploded. If people could fall for a stunt like that they can certainly believe two wrestlers getting into a fight on a talk show. If the host, television studio, and security are willing participants in the stunt it could be quite a spectacle. Shows like TMZ or Extra would pick up on it and while they would probably acknowledge the incident was staged it would still garner publicity for WWE. Vince always says there’s no such thing as bad publicity.

    They don’t need outside forums to generate heat, but if that opportunity presents itself it would be wise to take it. Let’s be real. The character The Miz has a much better opportunity of attracting new viewers than the man Mike Mizanan. Miz, in his character’s mind, doesn’t need to be there to plug WWE or a ppv. He’s there to plug himself, which in turn plugs WWE.

    A main part of your argument is that wrestlers shouldn’t have the burden of having to be in character all the time. These guys are living their dream. I don’t think it’s such a burden for them. They probably have a blast performing as their character. I highly doubt it’s the hardship you make it out to be.

    I admitted this was a bit cheesy. Let’s keep in mind this was back when wrestling was a lot more gimmicky. Other than Taker and Kane no one else has a gimmick where they could not go out and interact with someone normally while still in character. The point is Regis showed clips of Taker in action and hyped his upcoming championship match at a ppv. This serves a much greater purpose for WWE than Regis asking Taker his thoughts on immigration reform. The latter would make for more intelligent conversation, but that’s not why I watch wrestling.

    As I mentioned above I highly doubt this is the burden you make it out to be.

    I guess I didn’t make myself clear the first time because you are not grasping what I’m saying. No wrestling fan wants to see Kane, whether he’s Kane or Glenn Jacobs, discuss real life topics on Larry King. If Kane was advertised as a guest on Larry King and Glenn Jacobs showed up the fans would be disappointed. Nobody would benefit from this. If a non fan was to tune in and see Jacobs on CNN I can guarantee he wouldn’t say “Wow I like Glenn’s opinions on the tax hikes. I’m going to buy that next pay per view and hope he can beat the Undertaker.” So where’s the gain? Wrestling fans are disappointed, and non fans aren’t introduced to anything involving wrestling. I guess CNN may benefit, but what the hell does Vince care about that?

    Every time you mention an advertised wrestler showing up out of character I can’t help but picture this:

    [YOUTUBE]mY7055jqT_M[/YOUTUBE]
     
  10. Viola Moonlight

    Viola Moonlight I'm Literally Just Here for WZCW

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    Why would face performers waste the opportunity to interact with the fans as their characters? When we meet our heroes close up and personal, we don't want to hear them consistently talk about how they should defeat the bad guys or insert gimmick lines all the time. You want to shake their hand as a person and show your respect for them as a performer. I know I wouldn't want Christian rapping to me how he is Captain Charisma... we already know his character and we watch the WWE for that. The public appearances are for something else... to meet the performer.

    Now just because some people are heels doesn't mean that they'd like the chance to interact with others as a neutral person. They may like keeping in character, but you can't deny one of their basic human needs like socialising. It's not like the performers who work as heels enjoy garnering negative heat from the audience on every platform. You don't want someone being an ******** when you are trying to gain more customers for your product. I don't see any front-runners for other companies being "heel" characters in a sense to degrade you and other nice people (as heels do) for advertising.

    Yeah, they showed a clip of a professional wrestling angle that is currently going on... that involved a Caucasian man attacking a African-American man with a snake. When Bad News came out onto the show, there were hardly any plugs made. It was basically the host and the wrestler going back and forth playing in character. A lot of people who are new to the concept are oblivious to the fact they are staging it, and would only have gathered by the end of the show that Bad News was had Ophidiophobia. In all honestly, I forgot that he was a wrestler by the end of the show. Not really the best promoting strategy of all time, is it?

    Very, considering that you are aiding my arguments with a statement like this. Remember, the history that Triple H has with Randy Orton and the intensity that a man like HHH brings to the table... saying something along those lines wouldn't be in character, it'd be his personal identity speaking.

    Bad publicity is wrongly-dubbed, I'll give you that... but considering that a lot of the media has been viewing the WWE in a negative light for a long time, having any publicity portraying something that could be taken the wrong way wouldn't be beneficial. I mean, incorporating someone's death as the focal point of an angle is not taken too lightly. Sure, it'll give you some notoriety... but not the good kind. Staged fights or not, there are people that would take it the wrong way and influence parents to not allow their kids to watch their programming. For the E, that's not really a good thing considering they are targeting the younger generations.

    It's best to entice audiences by allowing the performers to be themselves via public appearances. By being a nice person, despite whatever roll you are playing with your camera, during these appearances the viewers will warm up and take you more seriously than acting in character. They can also promote their company in the best possible light and try to attract viewers so they can see for themselves what the professional wrestling shows would be like. Having a character act outside where they are suppose to might not sit well with viewers... but by plugging their company and describing what they do, viewers have the chance to tune into the shows to get an idea of what it's like throughout. Wrestling fans are loyal and no matter what type of appearance the performers make, they are still going to watch the programming... mark-out or no mark-out. It's non-fans, the media and simple advertising of your product is what you're focused on. Giving away too much has a higher risk of turning off potential viewers.

    Not as effective as directly promoting the WWE. As the character, someone like the Miz would do everything to garner the attention around himself. As the personal identity, he would be inclined to discuss both his character (alluding to how successful it is, plugging himself) as well as promoting the company he works for (such as upcoming events that would help to generate more viewership, which means more ratings and eventually profits).

    Essentially, if these guys were to act in their characters during public appearances as well as their shows, which would take up a lot of the time... it can become tiring for them. Although we might see their character as fresh and something new, or still quite interesting after months of it's inception... it's not the same feeling in terms of how many times they would have to perform their character. There will be situations where the performers need to step away from their character and address something serious, or maybe just take a break to interact with the fans so they can promote the company.

    You surely can't expect Abyss to walk around with Janice in his hands and talk about how "they" are coming whilst ripping out his hair every time he goes out in public, do you? If you allow them to act as their own personal identities during public appearances, they can be themselves and talk about any subject or interact with the fans without completely blowing their character out of the water. Their character won't feel repetitive on television and people will become much more interested in the long-run, allowing them to go further and explore the depths of their character on TV.

    A lot of the discussion that came about was mainly people laughing towards how these characters were being pulled off, with Regis/Kathy getting in some comments that although may have entertained the crowd... it didn't do much for professional wrestling. There was a promotion of the PPV, but they weren't selling people on the concept of the WWE.

    However, Kane coming in as his character would simply not work given any circumstance. He has always been a destructive monster where he has pretty much given a chokeslam to everyone he sees who pisses him off. He could not sit there as his character and discuss anything. The whole point of a public appearance is promote the company... what could The Big Red Monster do? Talk about how his brother is in a vegetative state? Right, like the non-fans would buy that. As Glenn Jacobs, he could discuss a wide range of topics concerning the company and with his intelligence/experience, people will be listening to him. It's just good business.
     
  11. The Brain

    The Brain King Of The Ring

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    If somehow a person was able to have the opportunity with a wrestler one on one it may be better if the wrestler was not in character. However, we are talking about public appearances. There would not be much personal interaction and if there was it would likely be for a minute or two. As for the heels I don’t think they need to be in character to the point where they just insult people unprovoked. They can carry a normal conversation with a hint of arrogance so they don’t stray too far from who we have come to know. Also you can’t really compare WWE to any other company. Professional wrestling is a business like no other.


    I really don’t know what race has to do with this clip but whatever. I don’t see how you can say there weren’t any plugs. The segment opened with a clip and Bad News went on to explain how the angle with Jake began. Arsenio then went on to provoke Brown throughout the segment further exposing his fear of snakes; a fear Brown denied throughout the angle. Maybe someone found this entertaining and decided to watch Superstars that weekend to see how the story played out. What would you suggest Brown talk about? You say them discussing an angle made you forget Brown was a wrestler yet talking about other topics wouldn’t? That doesn’t make much sense.


    It would be in character. It could very well be within Triple H’s character to respect Orton as an athlete. If Triple H was out of character he wouldn’t say he can’t stand Randy Orton and threaten to show it in the ring.

    The public has viewed WWE in a negative light because of all the things that happened during the attitude era. Those days are long gone. As long as the wrestlers don’t use foul language and sexual innuendo the parents won’t mind. Having someone explain how wrestling works will not attract any new viewers. Jeff Jarrett once said about professional wrestling “Either you get it or you don’t. To those who get it no explanation is necessary and to those who don’t no explanation will do.” If a wrestler was to appear and show off his unique character there’s a chance that someone new out there might get it.

    Miz could easily promote himself and the company. He simply talks about how great he is and mentions how you can see for yourself every Monday night on the USA Network. Very simple.

    The job of a WWE performer entails more than cutting a five minute promo and having a ten minute match. Performing as their character is their job and allow me to remind you it’s a job they love. It’s a job that brings them fame and fortune. They have it pretty good, but nobody gets to live the perfect life. I think many consider themselves fortunate to have their dream job, but it does not come without sacrifice. If a wrestler needs to discuss something serious such as the Benoit tragedy he would certainly need to step out of character. However, if it’s just a random appearance for fun and publicity I feel more people will be entertained by the character than the man.

    In a company that has Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, Kurt Angle, AJ Styles, Sting, and plenty others I wouldn’t expect Abyss to make too many personal appearances.


    They promoted the pay per view so what’s the problem? Unfortunately there is no way to determine if these appearances result in any extra buys. Just imagine this. Edge is on Leno. He is out of character. He talks about how hard it is being a wrestler. He talks about the injuries he’s suffered and all the traveling he does. Yeah that’s interesting, but is it really going to make anyone watch. Now let’s say Edge is in character. He’s intense and egotistical. He mentions his current feud and what he’ll do to his opponent at the next ppv. Maybe this unique attitude that we never see from other Leno guests will click with someone and they’ll give wrestling a shot.

    My point is Glen Jacobs discussing a wide range of topics would not benefit WWE. If a non fan sees Jacobs discussing these topics and likes his opinions does that mean he’s going to tune in to see him wrestle the Undertaker? Not likely. Wrestling is all about imagination. A wrestler in character can capture someone’s imagination and get them to tune in. Those not interested in the characters aren’t going to be interested in the shows.


    I want to address one more thing about the comparison to actors and wrestlers. If I said John Matrix or John Kruger was going to be on Leno most people wouldn’t realize who I was talking about. They are both characters that Arnold Schwarzenegger has played. The thing is Schwarzenegger is more famous than Matrix or Kruger. People want to see Schwarzenegger not Matrix or Kruger. If I said Paul Levesque was going to be on Leno most people wouldn’t realize who I was talking about. Triple H is more famous than Paul Levesque. People want to see Triple H not Paul Levesque.
     
  12. Viola Moonlight

    Viola Moonlight I'm Literally Just Here for WZCW

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    The Brain and I have decided via PM that we should wrap up the debate. Thanks Brain, I enjoyed it.

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Closing Argument:


    Professional wrestlers have to deal with a lot of stress and pressure of working in their chosen field. The amount that is expected from these people is overwhelming and takes a huge toll on their bodies and their minds. If the actual working of matches and taking bumps for entertainment isn't enough, they've got to keep in character the entire time we watch them perform on-screen and have to make many public appearances so they can advertise what they do and where they do it at. Considering how rough their schedule can be, it's best that when they make these appearances they take on their own personal identity as it:

    1) Prevents Psychological/Legal Issues: By acting in their character for more than they do their own personal identity, they can trick their own mind that the character they play is themselves or their character is the only thing people will remember them by (i.e. the people become their characters to stay relevant). Sometimes, believing too much can lead to nasty places like court proceedings. With the damage that professional wrestling does to someone, it's best to keep all controllable risks to a minimum... or even eliminating them.

    2) Takes Away From Being A "Character:" They are simply make-believe. Introducing them to the real world essentially kills the character and the suspension of belief that people partake in order to watch their favourite professional wrestling shows. Not to mention that it would over-kill the character and some of these gimmicks put into reality can have a negative influence on their pubic image. That is not good for business at all.

    3) You Can Achieve Much More: When you make an appearance as your character, you are bound by what they person would say and how you would say it. Some questions could be rather difficult to answer in these formats. Being yourself, there are practically no limits as to what the discussion can be about and the answer you give would be honest ones. As a personal identity, you can make reference to your characters anyway... so why not be able to perform both sides of the coin instead of one?​

    Really, you don't want to give away too much of what you do for a living via public appearances. The fans that watch already know who you are and they want to meet you as a person. The non-fans would not understand if you were to play in character, so being yourself is the best bet when trying to advertise what you do.

    That's why I believe that undertaking your personal identity during public appearances is more beneficial than performing your character.
     
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  13. The Brain

    The Brain King Of The Ring

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    Falkon, regardless of the outcome this has been fun. You’ve been a good opponent and I hope I’ve been able to live up to the debater league expectations.

    Closing Argument:

    The bottom line is wrestlers always strive to give the fans what they want. A large number of the fan base is kids again. Even though we adults know better a lot of kids still believe in wrestling. You wouldn’t have the mall Santa stand up at the end of his shift take off the beard and give the kids a lecture on what it took to become a mall Santa. These guys are heroes to kids and they shouldn’t have to see their heroes unmask. Kids just wouldn’t understand why the wrestlers they watch every week are suddenly so different and it may affect the way the look at them going forward. Adults know better and would be able to understand why the wrestler would stay in character and would probably be entertained by it.

    I think wrestlers enjoy playing their character. It seems like it would be a blast. I think being in character takes the pressure off the wrestlers. Someone might be shy or uncomfortable in public as himself, but when he becomes his character he becomes confident because he has that altar ego to hide behind. People know the character and know what to expect so the wrestler can be more relaxed.

    Overall wrestling is a magical fantasy world that we can all escape to and in which we can lose ourselves in our imagination. Years ago kayfabe was alive and well. So many people look back on those times fondly. So many times we yearn for the good old days. Bringing kayfabe back to public appearances can help take us back to times when wrestling was only meant for fun. I don’t want to know what goes on behind the scenes. I just want to enjoy the show. Once I know how Houdini is able to escape the trunk I have no interest in seeing him do it again.
     
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  14. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

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    Clarity of debate: Falkon
    While both debaters were superb in this debate, Falkon's opening, closing and response remarks were nice and neat and easier to break down and read. Nothing against Brain here, Falkon had it nicely going for him.

    Punctuality: Draw
    Neither men let up on this debate for time, great stuff guys!

    Informative: Draw
    Superb use of information here by both guys.

    Persuasion: Draw
    This debate was so tight that if you tried putting dental floss between the two, it wouldn't fit. Every moment in this debate Falkon or Brain would have me swing one way so by the next post, the other would have me supporting them. This was a superb debate but alas neither men being so damn good makes it hard for me to take a side here. Excellent work.

    Final Score
    Falkon: 3
    The Brain: 2
     
  15. Miko

    Miko WATCHA GONNA DO, BROTHER!?

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    Clarity: Both had opening and closing debates, neither was a hassle to read, but Falkon did some cool stuff with the bold tags, so what we now know to be a "he" gets the point

    Point - Falkon

    Punctuality: What the lad above said said

    Point - Split

    Informative: Hate splitting points this often, but your both even again

    Point - Split

    Persuasion: Who won it out in the end then? After reading through all of that which I might add Falkon did BY CHOICE!! I was torn between the two for much of the debate, after much thought it was The Brain's arguments which were more appealing and for that he gets the points, although it was very, very close.

    My Scores;

    Falkon - 2
    The Brain - 3

    P.S I'll never forgive you Falkon for choosing to do the debate, would've made my life much easier, although as debates go, it's the best I've judged so far
     
    The Brain likes this.
  16. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Clarity of debate: Falkon
    Brain made some great points (it's too bad he didn't fully partake in the Debater's League), but so did FalKon, and his presentation was perfect to boot.

    Punctuality: Draw
    Neither took more than 24 hours for a response, and I already have chosen a winner here, so you split the point.

    Informative: Draw
    Both participants presented a lot of information.

    Persuasion: Draw
    Listen to what Phoenix said. Excellent job on both of your parts.

    Final Score
    Falkon: 3
    The Brain: 2[/QUOTE]
     
  17. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    Clarity: As has been said, great debate overall by both guys. The only slight against Brain is the presentation. Falkon had a great open and close, kept very neat and clean, with bold and italics. My favorites for debates. Brain did a fucking stand-up job though.

    Point: FalKon

    Punctuality: Neither were late, good job.

    Point: Split

    Informative: Jesus Christ this was excellent for information.

    Point: Split

    Persuasion: Need to agree with Phoenix. This was so back and forth it was fantastic. There is no way I can decide.

    Points: Split

    CH David scores this FalKon 3, The Brain 2.
     
  18. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    After a complete judge's tally, Falkon is the victor with 11 points to The Brain's 9.

    For the win during the CHOICE round, Falkon will receive 22 points for this victory!!!

    Congratulations and great debating from the both of you!
     
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