Round 3, Match 17: #1 Kurt Angle vs. 16. Dusty Rhodes

Discussion in 'The 2nd Annual WrestleZone Tournament (2008)' started by Shocky, Feb 13, 2008.

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Angle vs. Rhodes

  1. #1 Kurt Angle

  2. #16 Dusty Rhodes

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  1. Shocky

    Shocky Kissin Babies and Huggin Fat Girlz

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    #1 Kurt Angle vs. #16 The American Dream Dusty Rhodes

    1. Not a popularity contest.
    2. Will rules of a region come into play (Remember, this is a TNA match, all matches are in a six sided ring)
    3. Will crowd be a factor. All matches take place in Pittsburgh, PA
    4. This is the last round for non gimmick matches.
     
  2. klunderbunker

    klunderbunker Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House

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    Angle in a walk. Rhodes was great on the mic, but never that great in the ring. There are very few, if anyone at all that can match up with Angle in the ring. Rhodes will get in the flip flop and fly, only to get poked in the eye or a low blow, leading to an angle slam, and then a fat man tapping and screaming with an accent.
     
  3. Slim Pickns

    Slim Pickns Has Been Drafted To RAW

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    Dusty Rhodes is a classic old school figure, didn't have the best body, but got it done in the ring. That said, Kurt Angle is the best living wrestler in the world today and has been for about a decade now.

    I can see this being a decent match, lasting about ten minutes. Rhodes will hold his own at first, but Angle will prove to be too much.

    Match Result-Ankle=Broken
     
  4. Mighty NorCal

    Mighty NorCal SHALL WE BEGIN?

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    Yea basically no chance here for rhodes. He was charismatic, and pretty entertaining in the ring, but he just could not stand up to the superiority of Angle. The only reason he wouldnt get destroyed in a squash, is becuase he is a legend, other than that he will be getting suplexed all over the ring for about 8 minutes and then angle slammed for a pin.
     
  5. Slyfox696

    Slyfox696 Excellence of Execution

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    The results here are sad. Kurt Angle isn't fit to lace Dusty Rhodes wrestling boots. Kurt Angle is an over glorified smark favorite, whom the IWC pumps up because he's a "real" wrestler, and completely ignores the fact his psychology is piss poor, his understanding of face/heel disposition is worse, and he's spotty as hell.

    Dusty on the other hand had feuds that had fans so emotionally involved in his matches, it should be a crime to vote Angle ahead of him. Someone above said that Dusty wasn't great in the ring. Based on whose standards? The standards of an IWC who thinks that illogical chain wrestling some how makes a wrestler good? I'd take a Dusty Rhodes over a Kurt Angle any day of the week, and twice on Saturday night.
     
  6. Skullz Crack'Em

    Skullz Crack'Em Lord of the Skulls

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    I am not an Angle fan myself, but this match takes place in Pittsburgh, PA in TNA so that has to mean something towards Angle earning votes Sly. Dusty is an All-Time favorite no doubt, but he is walking into the Lion's Den here and will be picked apart by Angle's technical prowess. Angle should win in about 9 minutes with an Ankle Lock.
     
  7. Slyfox696

    Slyfox696 Excellence of Execution

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    Dusty has wrestled in the North, and in TNA. How does that significantly benefit Angle? Dusty Rhodes has forgotten more about working a good match than Kurt Angle has ever known.

    And, Angle's technical prowess? Gosh, I get sick of this. Has people actually watched Angle matches? Or do they just assume because he was an amateur wrestler he must be a technical god? Because Angle is far from a technical wrestler at this point. Dusty Rhodes has beaten the likes of Ric Flair, who for all my criticisms of him, is still twice the worker Angle is. You're telling me that Dusty Rhodes can beat guys like Abdullah the Butcher, Terry Funky, Harley Race, and Ric Flair, but can't beat an overrated spot worker like Angle, simply because the match is in a ring that Dusty has worked in before, and in a town that Dusty has worked in before?

    Dusty Rhodes wins this match in about 15 minutes.
     
  8. Mighty NorCal

    Mighty NorCal SHALL WE BEGIN?

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    Sly.....sometimes I swear you just browse the forums attempting to find the thread that you can make the most absolutely WRONG thing, just to see if you can prove people wrong, when the statements you made, are absurdly and obviously wrong. Im gonna start a "if you put your hand in fire, it will hurt" thread, and wait for you to tell me no it wont.

    How in the WORLD do you figure that??? there IS NO wrestler who draws people in more than kurt angle...are you serious?? Honestly, please oh please clarify what is piss poor about Angles ring phsychology.....EVERY Angle match becomes intense, and has a big match feel, simply on Angles intensity. Becuase his phsychology is SIMPLE doesnt mean its BAD


    once again, please elaborate this totally incorrect and baseless comment. Angle is one of the better comedy heels EVER...have you only seen his TNA stuff????

    once again what in the WORLD are you talking about??? I guess every match ever is a spot fest if you think Angle over uses spots....

    EMOTIONALLY INVOLVED???? are you SERIOUS??? Once again I cant belive you can just discount what angle does to crowds. NO ONE has caused more crowds to turn on faces, regardless of the character he was working than Angle. You want emotionally involved??? Try Micheals-Angle from wrestlemania 21. That crowd was dead for the majority of the night, but they were all sweating on the edge of their seat for that entire match. The crowd popped face for angle when he was playing a CREEPY RAPIST CHARACTER....I do not belive that couldve ever happened for Dusty Rhodes....

    EXACTLY. Dusty fuckin rhodes wouldnt even book Dusty going over Angle here. yea so what Dusty has worked here, in that ring before. And you mean to tell me that Angle doesnt have the advantage still? Dusty made the vast majority of his legend in the south, not north, OR in TNA.
     
  9. Slyfox696

    Slyfox696 Excellence of Execution

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    Wait, you just said that no wrestler draws people in more than Kurt Angle, and then ask if I'M serious? Please.

    His psychology is poor. His finisher is the Ankle lock which he rarely works before going to, his offense consists of a randomly thrown together moveset that has no tangible continuity, his face runs are boring, his heel runs are marred by the fact he works like a face, his selling is average at best, and his storytelling is completely ho-hum. He goes from spot to spot, with poor transitions in between, which is why he fits in so well with TNA. Now, I like TNA, but there is little doubt they work a very spotty style for the most part. When he's in the ring, he generally plays the same character, despite his out of ring character may be completely different.

    Poor psychology.

    Angle completely lacks heel psychology. He uses big spot moves, high impact offense, and an uptempo in-ring style. Basically, his whole heel match style is a crowd-popping style, which as a heel is about as foolish as a heel can be. Why would a heel want to pop the crowd? The heel is supposed to work to make the face pop the crowd, not the other way around.

    *sighs*

    Let me rephrase. Angle works a match that is full of spots, which by itself is not a problem. The problem is that the spots do not flow logically from one to the other smoothly. It's just one crowd popping spot after another.

    Do you even know who Dusty Rhodes is?

    :lmao:

    You just proved my point about how poor Angle's heel psychology is! Why would the heel want the crowds to turn on the faces? That is a prime example of what I'm talking about. His heel psychology is piss poor.

    Again...this shows how poor Angle is at playing the heel. People should not be popping face for Angle, and yet do so, because his matches give crowds a reason to pop.

    To use as a counter example, look at AJ Styles. When AJ was face, he did all sorts of crazy stuff, popped the crowd and the crowd loved him. When he first turn heel, his in-ring style for several months (and maybe still, I don't know) was toned down immensely. He eliminated many of the high spots from his match, and used them on rare occasions, and on those occasions he had a high spot it was usually because of the face causing it, such as Angle throwing him off the cage from Lethal Lockdown, thus making the crowd pop for the face (in theory, not with TNA crowds...of course I was at that show, so I guess that includes me). He worked slower, and worked a more down to mat match, doing his best to avoid giving crowds a reason to cheer for him. Angle has never done that. He still does his huge crowd popping spots, like the top rope belly to belly, his high impact offense of suplexes, the ripping of the singlet and screaming etc., and it completely ruins his heel character.

    Please. To insinuate that Angle is a better worker, or has had a better career than Rhodes is ridiculous.

    So is insinuating that Dusty Rhodes wouldn't book himself over anyone. ;)
     
  10. Mighty NorCal

    Mighty NorCal SHALL WE BEGIN?

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    Sorry, I forgot heels arent allowed to be entertaining. LOL. Edge has a very intense high impact moveset??? as does Triple H...are they bad heels??? During Trips last heel run, and Edge's current one, both got huge face pops often..are they bad heels??? its not becuase the heels (angle) "wanted" the crowd to pop face for them, its just that no matter what they did, and no matter how the company tried to book them, the crowds still cheered, becuase they were that damn GOOD. Once again, I use the creepy rapist character. What other moveset is a creepy rapist who used to be an olympic gold medal wrestler SUPPOSED to use?? something different??? His intensity was included and made a large part of his intense need to rape sharmell...so of course he remains an intense pshyco in his matches??? He was made up to be a total ********, bully in the angle challenge who used his superior skill and intensity to beatthe snot out of lesse opponets...so then how, please tell me, was he supposed to work his matches to represent that character any better than he did??? He mercilessly destroyed a ******ed guy who had a hot chick as a valet, and STILL got pops that sounded like a bomb went off in the arena (summerslam 2005) and this being the summer AFTER HE PLAYED A CREEPY RAPIST. The ripping of the straps, the screaming, its all a signature part of Kurt Angle, he cant just stop doing it. Hulk didnt stop posing did he???

    And HOW do you figure his face runs are BORING??? Do you call his match against UT at NWO 2006 BORING?? It was fuckin incredible, and exciting. Listen to the pops at WM 22, when he was pitted against an ultra baby Rey Mysterio. That crowd ate up Angles every breath and movement, and were CERTAINLEY not bored by his face disposition.

    No crowds ever thought Kurt ANgle was boring, regardless of his character or heel/face orientation. Regardless of his character or booking, fans were ALWAYS into his matches, and usually for at least 10 minutes after.

    Now I will admit, this is fully based upon his WWE stuff. I dont watch TNA, but unless he has declined GREATLY, I still find your arguments to be absolutely false.

    that, being the main selling point as being Kurt Angles finishing maneuver. Lets see why...

    HAVE YOU EVER SEEN IT!!!! lol...the Ankle is bent at such an incredible angle that its a maneuver that is supposed to be sold to not need any work on the appendage before hand. Chris Benoit didnt incessantly work over peoples head neck and shoulders, becuase the cross face put everyones neck head and face at such an angle that it didnt need to be set up. Same thing with the ankle lock.

    Kurt Angles entire style is supposed to be based off of shoot style ameateur wrestling. That is what he is suppose to do, that is his draw. Those kinds of matches can be ended almost instantly by a sudden submission move being applied and done with effectiveness. Its how the move is supposed to work, based on its extremely nasty angle, and the way that angles character is sold. Also, the phsycology that is exhibited in the various ways his opponets try to escape, and reverse the ankle lock, with Angle finding various ways to keep it locked in, is to me, FANTASTIC phsycology and drama. And im not sure how you can disagree with that, honestly. Its also great phsycology that you must keep that ankle lock in the back of your head at all times, becuase he can reverse pretty much any move into an ankle lock at any time.

    And why is that so ridiculous?? lets see here....Kurt Angle is a multi time WWE champion, and title Rhodes has won exactly NEVER times. Kurt Angle has main evented three wrestlemanias, and had two classics at others (Vs Benoit, and Micheals)...Rhodes competed in...a mixed tag match with the phenom sapphire at his side, a match that was what??? 3rd? 4th? 5th? on the card??? Thats supposed to be the pinnacle of professional wrestling right? So by that standard, Kurt Angle has had a far superior carreer than Dusty Rhodes. Rhodes may have had feuds with, and beaten all the legends of yester year, but angle has feuded with, and beaten the legends of tomorrow. Take a name from the list, and Angle has feuded with, and beaten them. Shawn, Taker, Austin, Rock, Rey, Triple H, John Cena, Chris Jericho. The list goes on and on. The legends of our time, and tomorrow. So if your goin on quality feuds and opponets defeated, Angle is AT LEAST equal to Rhodes, as his most famous feud was with Ric Flair, someone who you have openly claimed to be complete ass.
     
  11. Slyfox696

    Slyfox696 Excellence of Execution

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    Heels are supposed to be entertaining by making the face entertaining. Take Roddy Piper for example. He was entertaining, because he made Hogan look good and entertaining.

    Heels aren't supposed to get face pops. Where ever this notion came from that heels should be cheered, I'll never know. Cheering heels completely ruins the storyline of a match.

    Edge rarely gets cheered, and Triple H got cheered because of he was booked in a manner much like the nWo. Completely dominant, scoring one clean pinfall after another against all the top faces.

    What shows are you watching? Edge gets huge face pops often? And I could have sworn Triple H was every bit as hated as John Cena by the IWC back in 2005 and was routinely booed out of the building in his feud with Batista.

    Yes. Just like every other good heel in the history of the sport. Angle should have eliminated many of the high spots from his match, as well as the crowd popping spots, and gone with more of a basic toned down style, one that would encourage fans to cheer for the babyface as opposed to him. He can't do that.

    Yes, he can.

    Umm, yes he did. Except when he knew it would generate heel heat. Hulk Hogan is a great example. Watch how Hulk Hogan plays heel. Despite being the leader of a revolutionary group which was mega cool, and Nash/Hall getting good face pops, Hogan was routinely booed out of arenas, and the booing only got louder during his matches. Why? Because he understands the difference between face and heel match psychology. Kurt Angle has never shown any capacity to be able to do that.

    His last WWE run was incredibly boring. With the exception of No Way Out, his matches were tired and lacked any semblance of entertainment. Hell, the most entertaining match he had after NWO was at ONS when he was asked to completely bury Orton. And when one of your only entertaining matches comes when you are completely burying another wrestling, you know there's a problem.

    His TNA work shows the same shoddy work he was doing on his last run in WWE.

    Well, how convenient! I mean, Vader's powerbomb was so ferocious that he didn't need to work that back any either. And yet...he would. Bret Hart's Sharpshooter was so ferocious and hurt not only ones back but his knees as well, that he wouldn't need to work any on the appendage before hand. And yet...he would. Your explanation to Angle's lack of limb psychology is astounding. "He didn't have to because it's such a totally wicked awesome move!". Please.

    That's not really psychology, more of storytelling. And, c'mon, how often have we seen those same spots over and over now?

    That's not wrestling psychology, that's just the benefit of having a move that you never use limb psychology to apply. It's worse than Flair's application of the Figure Four. At least Flair would occasionally work a leg (not often though). Angle doesn't even both with the ankle until it's time.

    No, he's just a 4 time NWA Champion, back when the NWA actually meant something, and being the champion meant you were THE man...as opposed to Angle who won several of his titles at a time there was more than one main-event title floating around the WWE.

    In addition, Rhodes has won the following titles...
    * Central States Wrestling
    o NWA Central States Heavyweight Championship (1 time)[16]
    o NWA Central States Tag Team Championship (1 time) – with Dick Murdoch

    * Championship Wrestling from Florida
    o NWA Florida Bahamian Championship (1 time)
    o NWA Florida Brass Knuckles Championship (2 times)[17]
    o NWA Florida Global Tag Team Championship (1 time) - with Magnum T.A.
    o NWA Florida Heavyweight Championship (10 times)
    o NWA Florida Southern Heavyweight Championship (7 times)
    o NWA Florida Tag Team Championship (4 times) – with Dick Murdoch (1), Dick Slater (1), Bobo Brazil (1), and André the Giant (1)
    o NWA Florida Television Championship (2 times)
    o NWA Florida United States Tag Team Championship (2 times) – with Bugsy McGraw (1) and Blackjack Mulligan (1)
    o NWA World Heavyweight Championship (1 time)

    * Georgia Championship Wrestling
    o NWA Georgia Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
    o NWA National Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
    o NWA World Heavyweight Championship (1 time)

    * Mid-Atlantic Championship Wrestling | Jim Crockett Promotions | World Championship Wrestling
    o NWA Television Championship (1 time)
    o NWA United States Heayvweight Championship (1 time)
    o NWA World Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
    o NWA World Six-Man Tag Team Championship (2 times) – with The Road Warriors
    o NWA World Tag Team Championship (Mid-Atlantic version) (2 times) – with Dick Slater (1) and Manny Fernandez (1)
    o NWA World Television Championship (2 times)
    o Jim Crockett Sr. Memorial Cup Tag Team Tournament winner in 1987 – with Nikita Koloff
    o NWA Bunkhouse Stampede winner in 1985
    o NWA Bunkhouse Stampede winner in 1986
    o NWA Bunkhouse Stampede winner in 1987
    o WCW Hall of Fame (Class of 1995)

    * NWA Big Time Wrestling
    o NWA Texas Brass Knuckles Championship (2 times)[18]

    * NWA Detroit
    o NWA World Tag Team Championship (Detroit Version) (1 time) – with Dick Murdoch

    * NWA Mid-Atlantic Championship Wrestling1
    o NWA Mid-Atlantic Tag Team Championship (1 time) – with Buff Bagwell

    * NWA Mid-Pacific Promotions
    o NWA North American Heavyweight Championship (Hawaii version) (1 time)

    * NWA San Francisco
    o NWA United States Heavyweight Championship (San Francisco version) (1 time) (Last)

    * NWA Tri-State
    o NWA North American Heavyweight Championship (Tri-State version) (1 time)

    * National Wrestling Federation
    o NWF World Tag Team Championship (1 time) - with Dick Murdoch (First)

    * World Wrestling Entertainment
    o WWE Hall of Fame (Class of 2007)
    But, you're right. Dusty never held the WWE title. :rolleyes:

    Why are you now resorting to making things up? Kurt Angle has main-evented 2 Wrestlemanias, and only headlined one (meaning last and more important match on card). Dusty Rhodes, on his part has main-evented/headlined two Starrcades, as well as numerous other shows.

    You...do know that Dusty Rhodes had a wrestling career outside of the WWF...don't you? Your position is completely asinine. You're saying that Angle is better because of a 1 year stint that Dusty had in the WWF, while conveniently ignoring the fact his greatest body of work came from the NWA. It's as silly as you saying the Ankle Lock is such a devastating move that no work ever needs to be done on the limb.


    Oh, I get it. So, because Dusty Rhodes was born earlier than Angle, all of a sudden that means that Angle is better? Please. Your excuses are wearing thin and are ridiculous.

    Every single guy you listed as Angle having feuded with are far superior workers to Angle. Every one. You take all of Dusty's big time feuds, and that's not nearly the case.

    Your argument is false and your credibility shot. When you have to resort to claiming Angle's body of work against a single year of Dusty Rhodes, you know your argument is weak.

    Dusty is better than Angle. No doubt.
     
  12. Mighty NorCal

    Mighty NorCal SHALL WE BEGIN?

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    Heels shouldnt be cheered, Which, when they do, shows they are outpreforming the face to a very large degree, and the crowd recognizes, and supports it. Edge rarely gets cheered eh??? yea rarely except for like, you know everytime his music comes on, when he makes his entrance. Other than that, yea, pretty rarely lol. And by Trips last heel run, I meant after he came back from his sabbatical after the Batista feud.

    I never said it was correct, or thats what I thought. Im explaining to you how its pushed, how its sold to be. And to tell me its not, is simply foolish. Ken Shamrock never used to lay a beat down on anyones ankles either. Its how its sold. The sharpshooter didnt place as much pressure on a single point as the ankle lock does. If that move was applied for real, you could break someones ankle with it easily, in mere seconds, the angle is extremely awkward. Its sold to not have to be worked into. Watch a kurt angle match in your life.

    Oh really??? I seem to remember...

    Wrestlemania 19, Vs Brock Lesnar for the WWE championship

    Wrestlemania 20, Vs Eddie Guerrero for the WWE championship

    Wrestlemania 22, Vs Rey Mysterio Vs Randy Orton fot the World Heavyweight Championship.

    I guess I made those up though....and you say MY credibility is shot??? Someone cant even get their Wrestlemania title matches straight...

    please direct me to were I said this. Oh wait, your putting words in my mouth like you do everyone else. Ummmm how bout no??? I never said anything like that. I was merely making the point that Angles list of feuds and legendary opponets is AT LEAST comparable to rhodes, a list you were quick to dismiss in your first post.

    Im actually very familure with Rhodes work in other promotions. But isnt the WWE the pinnacle of our sport?? So if rhodes was so great, wouldnt he have had more than a year stint in yellow polka dots with the company??? I would think so. Vince Mcmahon decides pushes right??? Well lets see...Kurt Angle, multi time champion, multi time wrestlemania main eventer....Rhodes, not so much....but he is SO much better??? Guess you know better than vince then...And I am very much taking into account Rhodes territorial work, and NWA work. Which is why i made the comparisons between rhodes feuds, and Angles feuds. All of the guys who feuded with Angle were superior workers?? Please, spare me. Thats your opinion. a convienent one. YOUR excuses are weak and convieint. To say mine is, when the move is CLEARLY sold to be that damaging, and always has been before Angle even used it, is ridiculous.And as many times as others have told you, you still dont seem to understand your opinion is NOT fact.
     
  13. IrishCanadian25

    IrishCanadian25 Going on 10 years with WrestleZone

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    Sly, I am 100% in disagreement with you here. And we'd been doing so well, hadn't we?

    I cannot fathom the patience it would take to wrap quotes around every single one of your "points" in that oversized post in a desparate attempt to prove you wrong by isolating everything you say sentence by sentence. Instead, after reading your post, I will respond to some of your more egregious mistakes by posting my own account.

    Kurt Angle's amateur background prepared him for professional wrestling better than ANYBODY ELSE in history. Bret Hart and Chris Benoit had fair amateur background, but the only two truly "prolific" amateur wrestler turned professional wrestler I can name are Kurt Angle and Brock Lesnar. As a result of the understanding they both had of the weight and leverage of the human body, they were both able to make the change from the mat to the squared circle almost flawlessly - Angle more so than anyone else.

    You claim that heels are supposed to be entertaining by making the face entertaining. That is saying that no heel should be independently entertaining. This is a very archaic statement. With this, you are telling us that professional wrestling should forever be face vs heel, good vs evil, and that heels who are entertaining for their own sake RATHER than the sake of elevating the face are doing a disservice to the business. If that is true, then the mega-face characters Stone Cold Steve Austin and The Rock would not have come to be. Both were heels, and both were massively entertaining.

    NOW let's take your boy John Cena. He was a heel on Smackdown and part of his heel schtick was rapping to deride the home fans and his opponent. Fact is, it was so entertaining and funny, that fans started to cheer him. That elevated him to US Champ and now to the WWE's #1 guy. I understand in the 80's, WWE would force face and heel turns down fans throats with major events that caused the shift in heel / face status. Starting with the likes of Steve Austin and Bret Hart, fans started to gradually influence the status of these wrestlers, forcing the WWF's hand in making them turn.

    Kurt Angle is a fantastic heel in his promos and his outside-the-ring actions. He sets himself up as a heel prior to a match. What makes him so effective is that fans also RESPECT HIM. Fans understand that Angle can beat their favorite face in a split second. It creates intregue in the match, and as a result, fans show him respect by offering a face pop. Doesn't mean that he's a face, just that he's an accepted and popular heel.

    Let me draw a cinematic parallel. Silence of the Lambs. Hannibal Lecter is an alpha villain - a man who kills and eats people. He's an antagonist. But he is given certain "respectable" traits. Eloquence. Class. A Sense of Humor. As a result, fans leave not wanting to always cheer him, but with a profound respect for him.

    You claim Angle should have used a "toned down" style to accentuate the babyface and force the fans to cheer for them. Ridiculous. You are saying that Angle should have depleted the overall spectacle and intensity of his match just to prevent the fans from cheering!? Isn't that the OPPOSITE of what they are trying to do!? You mentioned in prior threads that, since Hulk Hogan doesn't put over TOO MANY young guys like Ric Flair does, when somebody does it, it seems a lot more impressive. Take that way of thinking (because I damn sure agreed with you there) and apply it to Kurt Angle. Angle is so intense and unpredictable in the ring, when some face DOES defeat them, it's more exciting. It feels like a VICTORY. The fans don't cheer the face because they are supposed to, or because they hate the heel, but because they respect the idea that the face wrestler just defeated one of the most dangerous and respected antagonists in the business.

    Now I get how great Rhodes was in the NWA. I agree with you there. I don't look at Rhodes' WWF work as a microcosm of his overall career, he was a mainstay in the territory system and the NWA, which I have immense respect for. But lest we forget, Rhodes did a fair amount of booking work in the NWA. A few people have mentioned it in their books, not the least being Ric Flair, who often described Dusty's propensity for constantly going back to "The Dusty Finish" to end his matches. How much of Rhodes's success could potentially be attributed to his role on the booking team? The same way we run down HHH, Hogan, Flair, etc for doing the same thing? Let's compare that to Angle. He never had booking influence in the WWF/E, and HHH even tried to run him down, claiming he was "too small." Angle still won numerous World Titles, mid-card titles, etc.

    I don't think Rhodes got over because of his wrestling ability, his match quality, etc. And Sly, you seem to think that shouldn't matter - I get what you are saying. Rhodes was in a gimmick that fans loves - the blue collar underdog gimmick. He identified with fans because he was a fat, undereducated white man from the south whos father was a laborer and who had to come up from nothing to have anything. A southern man who had to save up just to be poor. He opposed Ric Flair, who was rich and flaunted it. Rhodes was partially great because of Flair, and vice versa. Angle has made matches and feuds work with EVERYONE he's been in the ring with. AND he's backed up by amateur success. Maybe you only place stock in storytelling and ring psychology, but wrestling ability and athleticism mean something to me and the rest of this board. As a result, Angle goes over Rhodes in a classic.
     
  14. Slyfox696

    Slyfox696 Excellence of Execution

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    I watch Edge come out all the time. Where are these cheers? And, I could have sworn I heard good face pops for Triple H against Cena...

    It's pushed and sold to be that, because the workers using it don't bother to take the time to do differently, not because the move is that devastating. And, if you've even been in the Sharpshooter, you'd know how ridiculous it is to say it doesn't hurt every bit as much as an Ankle lock.

    My mistake. I forgot 20. Probably because it's mired in obscurity behind the Triple threat.

    Of course, the funny thing about that is that the one Wrestlemania of those that he actually did headline, drew the worst Wrestlemania buyrate since Wrestlemania 13...and counting.

    Not when Rhodes was doing much of his work. In fact, Rhodes was very much established as one of wrestlings greats by the time the WWF took off. Faulty logic.

    This whole paragraph was a waste of your time, as your entire premise is faulty to begin with. The NWA when Rhodes was making a name for himself, was every bit as respected as the WWF. It wasn't until about 1985 or 1986 where the WWF had truly separated itself.

    They are superior workers. Guys who understand ring psychology and who can tell a story are superior workers.

    No, claiming that a move is so devastating that no prior work needs to be done to a joint is ridiculous. Claiming that because one previously bad worker used it as such makes it ok for Angle to use it as such is ridiculous. Your justification that one bad worker can use it in that regard because another bad worker did is astounding.

    Yeah, and it's the same piss poor argument it always is. Because, apparently, unlike me, this whole time you've mentioned over and over again how Angle being better is an opinion and not fact. Please. Quit being hypocritical. And quit using lame ass, piss bucket excuses to try and make your argument sound stronger than it is. "it's your opinion, not fact". What a fucking stupid thing to say, and I get so tired of people weaseling out of arguments using such piss bucket excuses.

    :)

    Oh well, I guess it's time to take you to school again ;)

    Luckily, I have that type of patience.

    Shelton Benjamin was quite the accomplished wrestler as well. Charlie Haas. Bobby Lashley. The list of accomplished amateur wrestlers in professional wrestling is much longer than you say.

    But, you know what? It doesn't matter. Because amateur wrestling and professional wrestling are two completely separate entities. Always have been, always will be. The only advantage amateur wrestlers have is a possibly increased credibility with fans. That's it.

    Wrestling cannot draw as face vs. face. It cannot. It never has and never will. Wrestling is every bit the same medium of entertainment as movies. People want to see bad guys, and see good guys give bad guys what they have coming. Always have, always will.

    I haven't seen it, but I'm pretty certain Austin was booed after Wrestlemania 17. And I know Hollywood Rock was booed.

    John Cena was a heel for about a year. Sure, he caught fire doing raps, but it wasn't because of his in-ring style that got him face pops. Like it is with Angle.

    The problem with this is, every thing he does as a heel outside the ring is ruined inside. That's the point I've been making from the very beginning. Angle has no concept of heel psychology.

    Yes. Because his high impact offense pops the crowd, and eventually makes them cheer.

    No, of course not. But, if the only thing Angle has in his ability to make fans appreciate the spectacle and intensity of a match is his high impact offense, does that not once again show you how limited in the ring he is? If he can't work a crowd without using pop-inducing offense, then he's a poor professional wrestler.

    Which is what I've said from the beginning. A good professional wrestler can make the crowd care about him and the match, regardless of the moves they do. Because the story in the ring and the psychology behind it is so much more important than moves ever can be.

    That can happen any way. I mean, did Roddy Piper use a bunch of pop-inducing moves? How about Bret Hart as a heel. Hell, how about the IWC's golden child Ric Flair? How many pop inducing moves did he use? The only big spots Flair used were when the face came out looking good because of it.

    What does that have to do with Dusty being good in the ring? Being a good draw? Having more charisma in his pinky than Angle does in his whole body?

    Furthermore Dusty as a booker happened after he had already won a couple of NWA Championships, as well as various other titles. So, it's really a moot argument. Just pointing out that his booking had nothing to do with him being good.

    Wait...did you say that I may only take stock in storytelling and ring psychology, and then say wrestling ability means something?

    God. C'mon IC, I thought you better than that. Wrestling ability IS about storytelling and ring psychology. Not how many fake moves you can put on, which is usually more of a result of your opponents athleticism and not yours. It's not about how many moves your opponents sells for you to look good. Wrestling IS about storytelling and ring psychology. It's about working the crowd. Not some artificial criteria made up by the IWC because they've been worked by the business to think the only good wrestlers are the ones who "wrestle" meaning technical wrestling.

    You take Rhodes from his prime and put him against Angle today, and I guarantee this poll is different. Dusty is just fighting IWC ignorance and time on this one.
     
  15. Uncle Sam

    Uncle Sam Rear Naked Bloke

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    I agree with you on this point. However, you're forgetting that it wasn't really the main event, like the Triple Threat was. It didn't contain the proposed ending of the prolific HBK/HHH feud either.

    I completely disagree. In fact, I believe that a large majority of Kurt Angle's matches are some of the most intense I've ever seen, despite his supposedly faulty ability to display psychology.
    Well, that's supposing Kurt Angle is a bad worker, of which you seem to be the only one to believe in it.

    Wee bit immature, isn't it?

    And yet none of them reached the heights of Kurt Angle. What an odd occurrence. But apparently he doesn't understand ring psychology or storytelling, meaning it's his ring ability alone that carried him to the top. Astounding.

    So Kurt Angle, the poor worker, and the guy who doesn't understand the all-important ring psychology got no advantages from his amateur wrestling background. So he's got what? Magical powers?

    Double standards. Completely.

    I think you put way too much stock in psychology. Particularly when your argument is that Angle is living proof that you don't need it.

    I thought wrestling was meant to be entertaining? *Shrugs*

    Opinion. The WWE doesn't seem to agree. Hate to say it, but yea, that's opinion.

    Apparently, not in a Kurt Angle match.

    So Kurt Angle does it differently and is still successful. Impressive.

    Um... no.

    So the business has shot itself in the foot? We've just been hypnotized to be entertained by technical wrestling? Judging by Kurt Angle, they've done a thoroughly good job.

    I'll be back for this one later.
     
  16. IrishCanadian25

    IrishCanadian25 Going on 10 years with WrestleZone

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    I love school!

    Is this coming from the same man who constantly reminds us how great and how important Hogan vs Warrior at Wrestlemania 6 was? That was THE BIGGEST face vs face match in wrestling history, no? And did it draw?

    Holy hell how did I forget Haas and Benjamin? I need to take my Ginkgo Biloba today. Anyway, absolutely, they benefitted from their amateur background. And not just in fan credibility, though the true backstory helps. I was an amateur wrestler for 4 years, so I have a fair knowledge of this, but so much of amateur wrestling is based around understanding centers of gravity, body weight manipulation, and timing. In addition, the physical conditioning a wrestler goes through is second ONLY to MAYBE gymnasts and swimmers. Have you read Angle's book? The conditioning program he was on is accurate and also insane. The man is among the most well-conditioned athletes in history. Dusty? Well, he is, ah, not.

    I digress. Angle's amateur backgorund give him the ability to control his own body weight effectively, as well as his opponents, which in pro wrestling enhances his ability to complete throws and slams effectively and safely.

    Yes it was. Cena impressed the hell out of me not just with his promos, but his style and wrestling skill. I marked for him as a heel just like I did with Chris Jericho because 1) I knew he could win clean, and 2) I knew he could cheat to win at any costs, and I loved that. Maybe I have a soft spot for heels, though. The point is, as a heel he kicked the fans in the face countless times and still got over because, when the insults were done, he was entertaining.

    Also, take HHH. When he tore his quad the first time, he was one of the WWE's top 2 heels (with Austin) on the two-man power trip. He never showed his face while he was out, save for the occassional rehab video. When he came back to enter the Rumble, he had TOTAL face heat because the fans respected him and knew the value of having him in the ring. He never turned on a heel or alinged with a face like the guys in the 80's did- he was just gone for a few months and came back to a monster pop because fans missed him. Why? He is entertaining. And even as a heel that gives him value.

    Educate me. What about Angle's offence was high impact and resulted in face pops? The suplexes? What specifically?
     
  17. MastrPlanner

    MastrPlanner Dark Match Winner

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    I always marked for Dusty Rhodes...at least when he weighed less than a baby elephant. He puts on a good show, has great charisma, sells well as the "everyman" wrestler and has a place of honor, by virtually every measure, in the history and the growth of the industry.

    Kurt Angle, although perhaps no longer dealing from a full deck, is a wrestler's wrestler. He can go in any style, keeps himself in good shape, and has had way more than his share of great matches.

    Kurt Angle in a relatively short match. The bionic elbow just doesn't cut it against Angle's array of moves and styles.

    MP
     
  18. Shocky

    Shocky Kissin Babies and Huggin Fat Girlz

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    So we're pretty much in universal disagreement with Slyfox on this one, and no matter what he says it won't change any of us Angle fans minds. Angle is simply put, my hands down no second guessing wrestler of the decade, Dusty Rhodes is over rated. Angle wins this one, and it's not even close, in fact, no one can beat Angle when Angle is on his A game. Angle is simply the best of this decade.
     
  19. IrishCanadian25

    IrishCanadian25 Going on 10 years with WrestleZone

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    I am not disagreeing with Sly because I am an Angle fan. I am disagreeing with Sly because he is wrong. Rhodes cannot keep up with Angle's intensity, speed, strength, tenacity. To suggest that he can is to insult Our Olympic Champion.

    A big man will take out Kurt Angle, but his name isn't Rhodes.
     
  20. HBK-aholic

    HBK-aholic Shawn Michaels ❤

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    I had to vote for Angle, because looking at matches from both the 2 I would have to say Angle would get over on this one. Just looking at one of his matches is enough to prove to me he has talent, and is one of the best wrestlers at the moment. I don't think the match would be completely one-sided, as Dusty Rhodes did have a lot of talent, and some of his matches were great. But I don't think he compares with Kurt Angle.



    I just had to laugh at this. When arguing about Cena, people have said Cena gets heel boos for a super face, therefore showing he isn't as good as thought at working a crowd and keeping the storylines. Yet Cena marks always find ways to disagree with that.

    However now this is being used as something the opposite way around. And Slyfox who has argued against the Cena one, is using it. :headscratch:
     
  21. Mighty NorCal

    Mighty NorCal SHALL WE BEGIN?

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    Um, they are coming out of the speakers of your televison, or surround sound, or whatever you have. And you couldve sworn Triple H got cheers when he faced Cena...becuase he did...and thats exactly what I said...my oeiginal point was Triple H got face pops during his last heel run, which ended with the matches against Cena, does that mean he is a bad heel???...Watch No Way Out this sunday, or hell, even SD! tomorrow night. Edge makes his entrance to AT LEAST 35% percent of the crowd popping. Which is a higher percentage than Cena gets on any given number of nights. And he is the WWE's top babyface. Lets see on that one. When Cena does some moves, they generally get booed by at least 25% of the crowd...does he have bad face phsycology??? Maybe "hmmmm whenever I do these moves a large percentage of the crowd boos the FUCK outta me, I shouldnt do that" I guess becuase people popped for Angle, and boo Cena, then thousands and thousands of fans across america are just dumb, and dont understand wrestling like you do.


    Which is still WAY more than any Wrestlemania Dusty Rhodes ever headlined...Oh wait....

    Yea ok. thats rather weak and convient. Ok so no one EVER came up to Kurt Angle and said "you know, you might wanna work that limb a lil, before you hook on the ankle lock" and the reason for this is becuase Angle is so atrocious??? right.

    Well then I guess Vince Mcmahon is ridiculous lol. And I guess every last fan who popped, or got very concerned for their guy when the ankle lock got put on. Everyone bought the ankle lock was that devestating, so obviously its not ridiculous. How often does Cena work over peoples Heads, and necks before he goes to the STFU??? And as I said before, how often did Benoit do the same thing, before putting on the crossface??? They didnt need it, based on the extreme pressure and angles put on by the move.

    The crowd pops/ worries, and they buy it. So, are all of them wrong, or are you wrong??? I guess 12,000 smarks packed every arena every time that happened.

    Exactly. He was already established, in his prime. SOOOOO with all that he STILL only had a one year run in polka dots in the top tier of wrestling.


    Oh, becuase we dont have the same opinion as you we are then deemed ignorant. right.

    I say that ANGLE is fighting the ignorance of somebody who clutches to the old school formula of wrestling, who doesnt think it can work any other way. Hm lets see, it can only be done one way, forever and can never ever be any different or change??? THAT sounds like ignorance to me.....
     
  22. Slyfox696

    Slyfox696 Excellence of Execution

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    Which match? Aside from his HBK at Wrestlemania, what are some of these intense matches? You know, where he plays the proper role, and the match is enjoyable.

    No. The immature part is when people call me arrogant simply because they can't argue rationally.

    All of those guys weren't good workers either! :lmao:

    He's got crowd popping moves, and fans belief that technical wrestling makes a good wrestler. He's got solid promo skills, and had a fairly unique character.

    Are you going to try and tell me that amateur wrestling has any impact on professional wrestling?

    No, it's not. I'm not criticizing Angle's promo ability. Just his in-ring ability. Which is where the difference lies.

    How can one put too much stock in psychology?

    Of course it is. But, not because the bad guy does moves to make the fans cheer. If bad guys get cheered, where does that leave the good guys? And, if there's no good guys or bad guys, after a while, where's the incentive to watch?

    Can some of you people really be so short sighted as to not see how harmful it is to cheer heels?

    No, because in a Kurt Angle match, they cheer the moves not the character. Which is why Kurt Angle has never been a significant draw and why he gets cheered as a heel in the ring.

    But, the wrestling business is not just about Kurt Angle. When he does that, it benefits him, and no one else. It puts his opponents though in a terrible position as they can't work their disposition because Angle doesn't work his. It's piss bucket.

    Read my "You've Been Worked" thread for you explanation.

    You do understand the difference between a one time dream match, in which the torch of being the head of the company is being passed...against a regular mundane everyday angle.

    You do understand that professional wrestling is significantly more about storytelling and psychology than random moves right? And that when Angle is using throws and slams, generally its his opponent, as much as him, that dictates how well the move goes.

    His high impact suplexes, his top rope belly to belly, his ripping of his singlet, his playing to the crowd as a heel...all of that is a demonstration of his poor heel psychology. Watch a Ted DiBiase match, and notice the difference. DiBiase was a guy who knew how to work a heel match.
    Did you really just call Kurt Angle the wrestler of the decade?

    To suggest that Angle is superior to guys like Flair, Abdullah, Race etc. is an insult to wrestling fans everywhere.
    :lmao: You weren't even alive when Dusty was wrestling.

    Major difference. Because Cena is working a face style as a face. He gets booed for reasons other than his face psychology.

    Angle gets cheers as a heel because he works a face psychology. Significant difference.

    :rolleyes:

    If that is seriously your argument, you're not even worth replying to. You know how stupid those comments are. You're not worth replying to anymore. When you continue to talk about the WWF as the only place that matters, when Rhodes very clearly made his success in the NWA when the NWA was every bit as popular as the WWF, then it shows you understand how weak your argument is.
     
  23. Shocky

    Shocky Kissin Babies and Huggin Fat Girlz

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    Yes I did. How can you dispute this. There is no one close to winning this besides Angle. He has been in the main event scene the entire decade, hasn't had a big injury that took him out for a very lengthy space of time and he delivers all the time. Triple H would be a close number two, but he's missed a lot of time with injury. The Undertaker, same as Triple H. Very solid guys but big injuries have cut their time. HBK missed most of the first three years of this decade. Cena I can make an argument for the back half of the decade, but not the entire decade. Who do you think is the wrestler of the decade, encompassing the whole decade?
     
  24. Slyfox696

    Slyfox696 Excellence of Execution

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    Kurt's missed quite a bit of time due to his neck injuries as well. Triple H is easily my vote (and that's hard for me to say). While I'm not going to get in-depth to it here as it's not the place, I will say that Angle has to be considered one of the top, simply because, as you said, very few guys have done it the whole decade. I would say that Chris Jericho has done very well, John Cena by the time the decade is through, Shawn Michaels, Booker T, and HHH all have legitimate claims as Angle.
     
  25. Shadowmancer

    Shadowmancer I am The Last Baron

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    Results are here

    I find this funny since you did bag Abdullah in the first round. But overall I agree with Sly, Dusty Rhodess wins this one because of the entire body of work allowing him being able to mix it up with the big names of today, you look at the way he worked when he was doing the NWA Vs. WWF matches at MSG between him and Billy Graham, you see his Psychology coming through. Both choices are justifiable but look at it from a match point of view. For Angle to hit the Suplexes he has to get close enough for Dusty to be able to get in the Bionic Elbow. If that helps you see the way that I am thinking for this match. Angle will get caught by the Bionic Elbow. Therefore match over Dusty wins.
     
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